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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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This still doesn't address the concerns they raised about Tera's overall effect on the metagame - namely, that it forces people to build teams "on the extremes" because the possibilities introduced by Tera - which, I should note, are generally more consequential than using lure sets (which are often borderline gimmicky and serve to win a really specific mu) or running Hidden Power types - make it so that games can be decided by matchup alone. I agree that variation has always been an important part of this game, but Tera takes it one step too far, and none of the examples given come close to the effect that being able to change types on a whim does. Either way, I think too much of the conversation has been about being able to predict or adapt to the opposing player's Tera type; Teras are often predictable based on the mon and the team structure it exists on, but that doesn't change the aforementioned effect regarding matchups.
5the tier is literally just shed tail wars right now. honestly sad how quickly SV regressed this past week as i thought the metagame post-walking wake test was pretty great before this damn shed tail infestation started. i've always been pro-tera (i fuck w/ it heavy) but having to break a substitute through a possible type change is the first taste of uncompetitiveness i've gotten from the mechanic so far. more in-depth thoughts here
2the metagame is quite suffocating so setting up safely can be difficult with its offensive sets. obviously you can shed tail into it but that's getting banned anyways. while volcarona can end games on the spot with the right 4 moves + tera-type, it can also end up being flame body sack fodder if you have the wrong 4 moves + tera-type. that's why i prefer volcarona's bulkier sets right now as they are less volatile; always nice to have that reliable kingambit x iron valiant check
1kingambit reminds me of gen7 magearna, lowkey broken but the tier would fall apart without it. reliably answered by a 60% usage 'mon as well. yes, it can beat great tusk long-term, but if you manage to (1) get kingambit in safely, (2) get the turn right by hitting great tusk on the switch with iron head, and (3) repeat this cycle 3-4 times, then that is called skill not the 'mon being broken. the only way for kingambit to get through great tusk prematurely is by turning flying- or fairy- via tera, and tera'ing as a whole introduces you to a new set of checks. in the case that a great tusk for a great tusk handshake happens, there are still other outs vs it-- dondozo, trick users, iron valiant, focus sash users, breloom, ID corviknight, iron hands, will-o-wisp users, jolly low kick kingambit, substitute users, reactive tera's, speedy skeledirge, encore users, and more niche shit like pawmot, quaquaval, and slither wing sun. i'm also surprised people don't talk about how much trouble kingambit has allocating ev's. amazing 'mon but banning it would do more harm than good imo
1learn to play
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Enjoyment - 6
To be completely frank all I've been seeing around 1800-1900 ladder is just shed tail and more shed tail. This undiverse meta where you can just pass a sub to another mon (mostly fucking roaring moons or volcs) and to break that sub whilst they have the option to change their fucking type is just ridiculous. Games feel like a coinflip most the time if both parties are running shed tail and most the time im getting shit on by the same mons over and over
Balanced - 4
From all the shed tail spam recently I wouldn't say the meta right now is frankly balanced in any sense but the fact that half the players are running the same archetype must mean something is broken. it is always fun to see creative teams on ladder however as a result of this boring fucking tier
Shed Tail - 5
obvious reasons lol
Volcarona - 3
Volc is an interesting one since by itself I definitely would not consider it insanely op however with tera volc can be quite hard to play around, especially since that mon can use like 10 different fucking tera types (ive seen water, grass, dragon, steel, ground, fairy, ghost); although I would definitely say it is very healthy for the current meta since it counters valiant and gambit comfortably, the flame body is also nice. Volc when switched in with shed tail is definitely a massive threat but hopefully shed tail is getting removed because its so fucking stupid
Kingambit - 1
Kingambit is OP for sure. However I cannot imagine an OU without gambit since its just such a backbone of the tier, just like tusk. It's got its fair share of reliable counters and although its damage is fucking absurd, without kingambit the tier would lose its premier revenge killer and late game cleaner. early game kingambit is strong but without its 4 or 5 fallen allies it really isn't crazy strong. there's also just so many counters to gambit that can be played around but that's not braindead op like shed tail its actually knowing how to play around those counters such as valiant, volc, dondozo, sub, etc. Definitely agree that Kingambit is crazy good maybe borderline op but its just such a staple of the tier I believe it needs to remain
Garganacl - 1
skill issue if you can't beat garg tbh
legit especially in this shed tail meta garg fucking sucks bro
To be completely frank all I've been seeing around 1800-1900 ladder is just shed tail and more shed tail. This undiverse meta where you can just pass a sub to another mon (mostly fucking roaring moons or volcs) and to break that sub whilst they have the option to change their fucking type is just ridiculous. Games feel like a coinflip most the time if both parties are running shed tail and most the time im getting shit on by the same mons over and over
Balanced - 4
From all the shed tail spam recently I wouldn't say the meta right now is frankly balanced in any sense but the fact that half the players are running the same archetype must mean something is broken. it is always fun to see creative teams on ladder however as a result of this boring fucking tier
Shed Tail - 5
obvious reasons lol
Volcarona - 3
Volc is an interesting one since by itself I definitely would not consider it insanely op however with tera volc can be quite hard to play around, especially since that mon can use like 10 different fucking tera types (ive seen water, grass, dragon, steel, ground, fairy, ghost); although I would definitely say it is very healthy for the current meta since it counters valiant and gambit comfortably, the flame body is also nice. Volc when switched in with shed tail is definitely a massive threat but hopefully shed tail is getting removed because its so fucking stupid
Kingambit - 1
Kingambit is OP for sure. However I cannot imagine an OU without gambit since its just such a backbone of the tier, just like tusk. It's got its fair share of reliable counters and although its damage is fucking absurd, without kingambit the tier would lose its premier revenge killer and late game cleaner. early game kingambit is strong but without its 4 or 5 fallen allies it really isn't crazy strong. there's also just so many counters to gambit that can be played around but that's not braindead op like shed tail its actually knowing how to play around those counters such as valiant, volc, dondozo, sub, etc. Definitely agree that Kingambit is crazy good maybe borderline op but its just such a staple of the tier I believe it needs to remain
Garganacl - 1
skill issue if you can't beat garg tbh
legit especially in this shed tail meta garg fucking sucks bro
Just going to point out that on the suspect test, the community's vote was pretty close. In fact, the vote resulted in a majority (59.25% wanted to take some action to restrict tera); no action was taken bc the ban threshold was 60%.
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Anyway,
Fuck this thing. The most common scenario: Send Worm in on something it can shit on -> Sub into Roaring Moon -> Free Dragon Dance while you try to break the sub -> Tera Flying is difficult to play around. Good players will know how to properly place Orthworm in a position where it can get something in for free, setup and score a cheap win.
I'll group these together because I think the problem isn't necessarily with the mons themselves, but rather Terastalization. I think Volcarona holds an important place in the meta as a reliable check to stuff like Iron Valiant, Gholdengo and such. So I have reservations about removing it from the meta. Kingambit should probably also be manageable with Tera out of the equation because it can't bullshit its way through the stuff that's supposed to check/beat it (like Great Tusk). I also think with Ghost being such a spammable STAB, Gambit also has a role to play in the meta as a defensive measure against them.
That said, I think Tera should be suspected again give how close the vote was, and given how the stuff on the radar only gets out of hand in large part due to being Terastalization abusers.
Garg is fine, even with Tera imo. But again, if people are bitching about it, it's because of Tera. People have been constantly complaining that HO is dominant and that balance is too difficult to build with in the current meta; so how exactly does removing Garg from the meta fix this problem?
Comparing tera in a generation as powercrept as this to the earlier gens, where there is a much more stable level of power is ridiculous. Earlier gens could handle a lack of team preview because of that lower power level. There wasn't so many threats to account for in those gens that you'd be punished heavily for not knowing what set they'd run. Terastilize just artificially boosts the lists of threats you have to account for, and to a notable extent, just promotes an unenjoyable element of match up fishing at times.
Lure sets have a major opportunity cost. Tera does not. There's a pretty big difference in potentially giving up a whole pokemon in most cases, to lure a threat and remove it (which isn't guaranteed to heavily impact the game, if it even goes off properly). Tera changing a Pokemon's type is guaranteed to, and heavily impacts the game. Kingambit terastilizing fire and cheating burn spreaders. Volcarona hand picking what it wants to beat. Roaring Moon terastilizing and resisting offensive counterplay while setting up in their face.
Someone terastilizing and winning off an unexpected tera isn't novelty or praiseworthy. It's just annoying. Lure example of something like coba berry Tapu Bulu last gen is worth praising because it makes use of an underused item to creatively handle common mons.
Hidden power didn't have stab (most of the time) and didn't change a Pokemon's type. Not sure what you thought this was.
You don't have to preserve tera for late game. Tera affects battle at all points.
But also, there's a pretty big difference in preserving the health of your sweeper for late game, vs clicking a button and flipping bad match ups and either sweeping or leaving a gaping hole in the opponent's team that is too big to return from. It's not just sweeping either. Terastilizing an offensive threat to resist revenge attempts, and collect another KO. And past changing types, same type tera breaking is wholely unbalanced itself.
Lastly, with a normal non tera sweeper your opponent knows to preserve the health of their check(s) to your sweeper, thus making the interaction about skill.
While the rest of the post I mostly disagree with (but that's down to preference rather than thinking you're wrong), I think this point is a strange one. Tera was the one that received the option for complex bans because it's the generational mechanic with the most "flexibility" to be handled like that. Tera has uniquely had much more discussion on how to handle it - from the start while people also wanted it banned there was far more talk about ways to restrict it instead, even more so when VGC revealed it would be open team sheet (not necessarily for the same reason that Smogon would want team preview, mind, but there would be a precedent).
Before I forget, I respect you as a player and you often post intelligently even when I disagree with a hot take here or there.
But anway,
I'm not sure why this logic is still being applied in April '23.
Tera was 100% new toy syndrome and in general, unless a mechanic is egregiously broken, we try to keep it.
At the time, the gimmick was so cool and novel that the only players who were against it that early cared more about a balanced game than fun.
That's why it was a small group that early on.
I've posted that a lot of players just lacked foresight to how damaging the mechanic would be for a healthy meta in the long term.
"outright banning terastalization is incredibly unpopular." At the time. Things change and now a lot of players regret their vote. I still think it might pass a suspect though, to be fair, but we deserve at least one more go around where players can vote more intelligently and without any weird, arbitrary, downright goofy af "restrictions" to convolute the process. Ban/No Ban, that's it.
I think you would be surprised at how things have changed.
Since the suspect, especially the past 2 months, it's clicking for a lot of players, consciously or subconsciously realize that the gimmick, while not obviously broken as D-Max, is simply unhealthy and can't be balanced in a competitive way.
Players who were ardent supporters of Tera during that initial time have flipped their opinion entirely.
OU chat sees about 50 "fuck tera" posts a day.
Not that it matters, but for every 1300 elo that lives on the forum laugh react, there's another like/love react on my posts.
But more importantly, that isn't an argument.
Not trying to go all reddit ackchyually on you here king but this logic is a textbook 'appeal to majority' fallacy.
We can pull some recent examples out to illustrate: right after Cycle ban a player hopped in OU chat to say we should ban Worm. Entire chat, including myself, was giving them a hard time, basically laughing at them. "It can only get up 1, maybe 2 tails bro lol". They essentially got bullied out of chat. Forums were the same. Now look at where we are. (We could also talk WW. OU tier leader outright called it broken, those first days of the meta any no-ban WW post was getting laugh reacts. That thing feels like a UU mon outside of sun...)
I'm not trying to shatter your worldview but the majority often doesn't know wtf they're talking about or even doing, hence why its a logical fallacy to appeal to the majority.
Like, going to stay on topic, but entire nations, millions, have been wrong... and the few that stood out were punished.
The surveys aren't that accurate either. We're talking about people who play and enjoy pokemon. Tera isn't literally making the game unplayable, and even I who dislike tera still vote around a 7. (Well not on the last survey but all the ones before that) The game isn't falling apart, it's just janky and goofy af when u can change your pokemon mid-battle into any type lmao. My entire argument is this meta is a 9 or 10 without tera. That's it.
It's frustrating to play a very mid and lackluster SS meta for years, and a new meta drops that could be a 10 but is being held back.
I literally think when/if tera gets banned, you personally will enjoy SV more.
Your balance score of 8 could be a 10.
Truly, I think it will click for you eventually. Anyone who actually ladders 1700+, and/or is active in the tour scene, is realizing this shit is terrible.
It's not a small minority anymore.
I also just want to highlight that some players have that weird, interesting thing where they've attached their persona onto a product or a belief, and any attacks on that they feel personally attacked.
Like if someone worships Apple and you say something bad about it certain parts of their brain light up that correspond with intense feelings about themselves.
I just want certain players and forum posters to take a long breath and maybe think twice about how they've entangled themselves into the tera gimmick.
The logical arguments for ban tera are concise and factual.
Pro tera is literally, "it's fun" and "it's the gen's gimmick".
Which aren't arguments, just like appealing to majority isn't..
I think it's a poor ego thing when people hold onto old beliefs in the face of new info.
It's okay you were wrong, it happens to the best of it.
I don't think this is saying what you think it's saying...
Old gens had shitty mechanics and gimmicks that were fixed with later gens..
This is reading like, "We're currently in a shitty situation but we can get used to it because we've been in shitty situations before."
or, "I'm used to shitty situations"
Just because you had to walk 5 miles uphill both ways in the snow to get to school doesn't mean we shouldn't ride the bus now lol
man i wish they'd taken that bet
maybe they will, keep up hope father buzz
We get it, and you were always right.
There is no good pro Tera arguments. Anti Tera is all facts and logic, ackshually. We are being held back by (uh shit not democracy uh,) the "Unintelligent Majority". And also everyone changed their minds, actually.
Everyone agrees with you, you can relax. The Tera Suspect was all a prank, it was just to mess with you. Anyone who actually likes Tera was just pranking you, or bad! And everyone you agree with is good.
Listening to those simpletons is dumb. We should all only listen to those who are intelligent, and agree with me. I am not an unhinged person writing weekly rants on Smogon Forums. No way.
If you actually like Tera? You don't have an argument, or you're bad at the game, you have some weird reason that isn't actually competitive, you're provably 1300 ELO, you've psychologically made pro-Tera your entire identity.
Because if I make up all these reasons, that way, The Bad People's arguments don't have to matter to me. They're all invalid, for different reasons.
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I want to be real for a moment.
A lot of your rants on this subject come off as psychopathic, unhinged drivol. Just hate spewing.
People can like things and disagree with you for valid reasons. There doesn't have to be a "right side of history", with a giant mechanic that one can prefer or not. You don't have to constantly make posts about how those who disagree with you are invalid for X, Y and Z reason.
You aren't a bad person or something, but you keep engaging with people in a topic in a way that is actually more polarizing than any other way you could do it. It feels more like a plee for The Good People to come form some weird pact, while we can ignore The Bad People whose opinions don't matter.
Smogon has worked on at least somewhat democratic principles since like, forever. Long enough to where any counter-example you could have simply doesn't really matter. I almost never see people upset and claiming about how the result of a Suspect Test was bad months later, and a lot of these arguments would only lead to one thing:
Well, I didn't get the result I want. But surely, in a few months, we can change people's minds and try it again. And in a way, yes, trying to get people to agree with you is a good way of achieving this. But a lot of it is very much just convinced of the same things said for months at a time.
In fact, a lot have seemingly already assumed there will be a post-HOME Tera Suspect. And while that is likely to happen, what's then after? What's to stop this from going to literally both DLCs? Or in between? Etc. etc.?
Until such a Suspect Test happens, this argument in this way has led to nothing but bickering, and increasingly polarized debate. And a lot of your posts don't help that, but instead just polarize further.
I'm not some pro-Tera brained person, I have nuanced beliefs on things (I've literally advocated against Terastilization in the National Dex Tier) as do most people, including probably you. Don't engage with people like they're either smart like you, or incorrectly convinced in some other way, or even imply that people feel forced to stick to their opinion for some Invisible Mental Force.
Just please, can we make this debate any more civil than it has been for the last... months? Please?
Shed Tail: 5
Orthworm-Roaring Moon simulator processing times are getting scary. Time to go.
Volcarona: 4
People are managing for it a bit better with their own Tera usage and pressuring it a lot with offenses, but it still has a practical enough defensive typing and overall profile to get going more often than comfortable. I find its ability to handpick counterplay problematic. I do think we continue to adapt a little more over time, but I still support acting. Main thing is I find Shed Tail more pressing and I am not sure what type of time crunch we are on with Home.
Kingambit: 3
At least suspect worthy in a normal context, if not broken, but a necessary evil. In a longstanding metagame, I would give it a 4, but right now we don’t have time for such a seismic shift with Home around the corner. With this said, Kingambit forces specific counterplay and frequently outlasts it to dominate endgames. Tera allows it to skirt away from revenge killing and boosted Sucker Punch is a godsend.
Garganacl: 1
Tier has done a wonderful job adapting to it. Obviously still good and sets like Block can turn games around, but people can play around it if they’re smart and preparation for it encompasses a growing pool of strategies. I find it mostly, if not entirely, healthy at this point.
Orthworm-Roaring Moon simulator processing times are getting scary. Time to go.
Volcarona: 4
People are managing for it a bit better with their own Tera usage and pressuring it a lot with offenses, but it still has a practical enough defensive typing and overall profile to get going more often than comfortable. I find its ability to handpick counterplay problematic. I do think we continue to adapt a little more over time, but I still support acting. Main thing is I find Shed Tail more pressing and I am not sure what type of time crunch we are on with Home.
Kingambit: 3
At least suspect worthy in a normal context, if not broken, but a necessary evil. In a longstanding metagame, I would give it a 4, but right now we don’t have time for such a seismic shift with Home around the corner. With this said, Kingambit forces specific counterplay and frequently outlasts it to dominate endgames. Tera allows it to skirt away from revenge killing and boosted Sucker Punch is a godsend.
Garganacl: 1
Tier has done a wonderful job adapting to it. Obviously still good and sets like Block can turn games around, but people can play around it if they’re smart and preparation for it encompasses a growing pool of strategies. I find it mostly, if not entirely, healthy at this point.
for what it's worth to the council, I'd assume we have about a month-ish left. Delphox is unreleased, and we'll probably have a week of two after announcement of HOME like last time. That is, assuming they finish off the starters, and nothing else.
wholeheartedly agree with this as an unknown onlooker: the more recent posts regarding tera don't feel like genuine debate.
it just feels like people are trying to find a high ground, calling what is right and what is wrong, occasionally going off on the council for it for some reason, tossing their arguments at a wall and seeing what sticks. i'd much prefer if this stuff got more calm, it makes forming arguments a lot more cohesive and fair. plus, we're about to have the biggest tier shake-up like, ever. bickering aint gonna stop the utterly horrifying power creep thats about to unfold on us, lol.
As a braindead HO player its a sad day when worm goes lol, but na it's insane how we let it go on this long.
MU moth is kinda slowing down in terms of outright broken, it's a mon that needs to find a turn to set up, and it usually has to tera. We should do everything to keep it since bulky variant is one of the few switch ins to specs tera fairy val moonblast that isn't dead weight and can turn momentum. With that said, sometimes it literally auto wins. We should keep it until Home drops though, imo.
Surprised here at 3 since king is lowkey broken af, but a lot of posts on here acknowledge its broken but also realize its holding the tier together in a lot of ways. The dance between tusk and king is cute <3 But fr, this thing is not a 3 lol, the reverse sweeps I've gotten with tera fairy/flying/dark is comical and uncomp af lol
Also really proud of the Gargan thing finally dying. That mon is somehow OP and complete ass at the same time. I'm glad people are learning moves like substitute and taunt are a thing again
After shed tail ban the meta will improve significantly- would be interesting to see if Cycle has a place as a fast spinner.
you're a sick freak
i love it
You've said broken-checks-broken a few times now and I'm wondering what are the broken things that Kingambit keeps in check that has the potential to run riot if Gambit isn't in the meta?
I’m in a meeting right now, but Shadow Ball resistance and our general lack of Steel types (plus it’s ability to Tera offense out of sweeps)
@ the above, Gambit's natural bulk lets it "panic button" everything p much, from Dragonite to Baxcalibur to Iron Valiant to Hydreigon, on top of Tera letting it check stuff like Volcarona and ofc the threat of Sucker Punch. A lot of the time Kingambit is pretty much necessary for certain teams to have functional offense matchups bc it can situationally be used to do almost anything you want, which is what leads to it being so effective. It's obviously impossible to say any of these mons would be truly OP if Gambit wasn't in the mix but with it being the most splashable way to handle stuff like DD Bax/QD Volcarona for offense, it's easy to see where the "broken checks broken" thing comes from.
i beg of the community to not hate cyclizar or orthworm, they didnt choose to be shed tail abusers
they're friend shaped!!
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