Your example is shitty cause what you describe is a sequence of desperate plays by the hypothetical Kleavor user (i'm assuming early game) that deserves to get punished. Great Tusk is literally the #1 Kleavor check or even counter with access to rapid spin, lots of hp & defense + ground/fighting typing, you never click stone axe there in the first place while Tusk is still remotely healthy and all Kleavor is is a opportunity for free rapid spin speed boosts. Mind you, i doubt Kleavor will establish itself as a common presence in OU, but 90% accuracy on it's one good move ain't the reason why (one of the reasons being it's shit matchup against the ~60% usage mon, not even gonna talk about it's stats & dualtyping).
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
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Your example is shitty cause what you describe is a sequence of desperate plays by the hypothetical Kleavor user (i'm assuming early game) that deserves to get punished. Great Tusk is literally the #1 Kleavor check or even counter with access to rapid spin, lots of hp & defense + ground/fighting typing, you never click stone axe there in the first place while Tusk is still remotely healthy and all Kleavor is is a opportunity for free rapid spin speed boosts. Mind you, i doubt Kleavor will establish itself as a common presence in OU, but 90% accuracy on it's one good move ain't the reason why (one of the reasons being it's shit matchup against the ~60% usage mon, not even gonna talk about it's stats & dualtyping).
This is fair! I think as you said it's going to primarily be a wall breaker gets to put up rocks while also havinv the option to pivot with stab U-turn off 135 attack. I don't think it'll be as hard to compensate for inviting Tusk in either since HOME is bringing back many fliers who give it grief. I think strong rock stab+stab U-turn is a nice combo that can be useful for wallbreaking and generating momentum. It'll be interesting to see how common it ends up being, though I expect it to be overshadowed by Hamurott overall.
Well for one thing you wouldn't lead Kleavor into Tusk (which would be a very obvious lead from team preview), so much of that example is a little moot. Second, this isn't gen4. Not getting rocks turn one is not a death sentence. The upside of stone axe far outweighs the potential to miss, because you aren't just putting up rocks, your also pushing damage onto a switch in. That's two turns of progress in one, and Kleavor can get those opportunities through the switches it forces. It's still going to be more consistent than it isn't.
People run Hydro Pump and Fire Blast all the time, and those moves have worse accuracy and don't set up unresistable entry hazards. A small chance to miss is more often than not worth it for a big reward on hit. Going back to the analogy with Great Tusk, I'm okay running Hydro Pump for an 85% chance to instantly remove it and a 15% chance to whiff.
Also it's not at all unusual to have two mons on a team capable of setting and/or removing hazards, so that your ability to do so does not rely entirely on being able to bring in and keep conscious one member of your team. Not a requirement, certainly, but if your only method of removing hazards is Great Tusk with Rapid Spin, that also means you can only remove hazards if it's still up and when one of Tusk's checks isn't on the field.
With Shed Tail being banned freeing Cyclizar from Ubers, I feel its time to start discussing banning the move Last Respects, so that Houndstone can be unbanned from Ubers.
Last Respects is the move that makes Houndstone ban-worthy. And what happens when you remove this broken move? We get a decent but fast physical sweeper under sand that is not too overwhelming. We have the tools to deal with it in OU such as Kingambit, opposing weather, etc.
I dont think the move last respects is balanced under any pokemon. Also Houndstone could make sand teams at least a choice. Although outclassed by the best weather ,Sun, because there are way more mons that benefit under sun at the moment.
Last Respects is the move that makes Houndstone ban-worthy. And what happens when you remove this broken move? We get a decent but fast physical sweeper under sand that is not too overwhelming. We have the tools to deal with it in OU such as Kingambit, opposing weather, etc.
I dont think the move last respects is balanced under any pokemon. Also Houndstone could make sand teams at least a choice. Although outclassed by the best weather ,Sun, because there are way more mons that benefit under sun at the moment.
Finchinator and the council has already answered what they'll do with Last Respects. If Basculegion ends up being broken, Houndstone will be freed and Last Respects banned. Right now, there is only one user of Last Respects, and that isn't grounds for a ban.
Okay I get it only one mon has it atm. I just dont think Basculegion with the abilities swift swim and adapabililty is gonna be a mon where we say okay Last Respects is not broken. Moves such as shed tail, rage fist and last respects are gonna be broken no matter the context. But who knows I might be wrong
I've been using this to lead into Glimmora:
Iron Treads @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 152 SpD / 108 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
Rapid Spin on turn 1, guaranteeing it doesn't get Rocks or Spikes up, and also clearing its first set of T Spikes. If it goes for Earth Power, you tank it. After the Rapid Spin, you outspeed it on turn 2 even if it's Scarfed.
On turn 2, you EQ and KO it if it stays in. If you can, spin away the second set of T Spikes on whatever comes in next. If not, try and partner it with a Poison type like Iron Moth, Clodsire, Toxapex, or Amoongus to passively absorbs the second set of T Spikes.
You'll always survive an Earth Power from offensive Glimmora and only have the slightest chance of getting KO'd if it gets a god-roll on a crit.
252 SpA Glimmora Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Iron Treads: 216-256 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Glimmora Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Iron Treads on a critical hit: 326-384 (85.1 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
There's also the added bonus that Treads is immune to Mortal Spin so it can't poison you and you can set up Rocks if you want.
For HO teams in particular, Meowscarada, Greninja, Toedscruel, and Great Tusk are all strong leads into Glimm. They all outspeed it and can deny it from getting up hazards with Taunt from Meowscarada and Greninja or Rapid Spin from Toedscruel and Tusk. Also, the former three can all hit it with special attacks to keep Toxic Spikes off the field, but bear in mind that Meowscarada's Leaf Storm is unlikely to 2HKO unless Glimmora activates Overgrow.
Meowscarda breaking sash is good enough honestly. If you keep it from getting 2 or even 1 layer of T Spikes you're in a great position for the rest of the game
I stand corrected.
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Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
Agreed. The QoL changes really made this meta more varied. I'm sure when guys like Heatran returns, we'll actually start to dive deeper into their movepool because we fortunately can't spam toxic anymore. I just wish that we'll be able to use the tutor only moves from the dlcs last gen like Garchomp's scale shot or triple mixel for Weavile. In fact, I think it would be better if the only mons that are trasferrable to sv are the ones who have that battle ready symbol for gen eight. Iirc, that symbol only appears when a pokemon is legal for vgc which means no transfer moves from previous gens
KamenOH
formerly DynamaxBestMeta
This is possibly the cringest thing about glimmora, and its entire goal is to set up cringe. Why would it be designed this way? You contributed nothing to the game, and wasted a move. Hell, it doesnt even logically work right. Its ability is a response to a contact move, so it should happen after. Yet it happens in the middle of rapid spin?!
This singlehandedly devalues glimmora IMO, and makes it suffer in the lead meta.
I think Glimmora is doing just fine for itself. Rapid Spin is the only physical move that won't leave a layer of toxic spikes behind afterwards if it hits it, and it's got great coverage and multiple sets it can run. Plus Normal resistance means that Glimmora can easily live a Rapid Spin and you get a free turn to do something like fire an Energy Ball at Tusk or Earth Power at Treads. Really, the problem is only if you have Glimmora set up rocks or spikes in the face of something that's going to spin them away anyway. If spinning happened before Toxic Debris and Glimmora staying in meant only Defog could remove hazards without just setting up more, that would be much more obnoxious.
glim is so good wdym by "suffer in the lead meta"
in this meta there is really only 3 or 4 leads that ive seen often which are glimm, meow, greninja and sash tusk
if im glimm and enemy sends out great tusk/treads instead of setting up rocks I just energy ball it and tusk takes around 70 if its defensive and 100 if its offensive
even so normally people will rapid spin first so if they get rid of the first layer of tspikes then they have to eq or I straight up kill them and if they eq then they can't stop the 1 layer of tspikes
in which you get momentum by swapping out to a tusk/treads counter like pult/moth/dnite and just set up on their face while they are 30% hp
even better if the opponents only counter for say kingambit is tusk/treads then you chipped the check low enough to the point where you can kill them later on
the whole point of glimm is a suicide lead/hazards setter for hyper offence that lets it get momentum while threatening pressure with tspikes/rocks and if they send out dragapult or something out first then you can get good damage with dazzling gleam or guarantee rocks
if they enemy is running stall sometimes I like using glimm as just a secondary special attacker since its move pool is so good
glimm is one of the best leads
Sneasler is going to break the game when it gets released, it will see OU for a week before a quick ban.
I see them banning Last Respects as a move and unbanning Houndstone but even then Basculeigon will THRIVE in OU.
Kleavor will be a very Iron Treads situation Imo. Enough usage to barely stay within the tier of OU but will be a much better option in UU. Though stealth rock is a great counter to a few of the current OUs
I see them banning Last Respects as a move and unbanning Houndstone but even then Basculeigon will THRIVE in OU.
Kleavor will be a very Iron Treads situation Imo. Enough usage to barely stay within the tier of OU but will be a much better option in UU. Though stealth rock is a great counter to a few of the current OUs
Glimmora made me realize that a team without grounded poison types is going to suffer. A lot.
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I just want to plant a seed of knowledge here about Kleavor.
Fury Cutter gets boosted by Sharpness. I wonder if that move finally turns viable - if I am not mistaken Turn 3 Sharpness Fury Cutter is equal to Dracovish Fish Rend Move from Gen 8. Gen 2 Bugsy style destruction is now in our hands.
(...Wide Lens Kleavor is maybe viable, see Stone Axe dilemma above?)
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I just want to plant a seed of knowledge here about Kleavor.
Fury Cutter gets boosted by Sharpness. I wonder if that move finally turns viable - if I am not mistaken Turn 3 Sharpness Fury Cutter is equal to Dracovish Fish Rend Move from Gen 8. Gen 2 Bugsy style destruction is now in our hands.
(...Wide Lens Kleavor is maybe viable, see Stone Axe dilemma above?)
nah dracovish fishous rend is 255 power if it moves first
765 if its banded, in the rain and moves before the enemy
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 212-250 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
u can't make that shit up
Imo the role compression isn’t good enough when the moves aren’t incredibly strong and the stats aren’t great. Samurott H may have a niche but kleavor won’t
While the calc below is obviously weaker due to a multipler like Rain Missing, it is not completly insignifcant to my point.
252+ Atk Choice Band Sharpness Kleavor Fury Cutter (3 times) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 171-202 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Please all be aware that I am not saying that Kleavor is Mr. Fish or Broker etc. but rather that this may be the *first* Instance where Fury Cutter may actually work.
good luck keeping it alive long enough to use 3 of them with that typing... if you want fury cutter memes though then youre better off with metronome than choice band
The post i was responding to said that the whole point of kleavor was to free up space in another pokemons move slot. this would mean that acording to them, if you have stealth rock on another pokemon, you arent using kleavor right.
i know that you didnt bring this up, but id rather not post more that i have to. others are saying that you would never put kleavor against great tusk. this was just a hypothetical. great tusk is just a placeholder for any lead that can 2hko you.
sunkern could not use any of these moves. i know that was an extreme example, but i dont even think houndstone is that good. in my ou viability ranking, i put houndstone below electrode-h in d tier. it becomes useless if you tera normal, or if you switch in a weather setter. it does mean your oponent has to be more careful with tera, but now your sacrifising two pokemon to make sure the oponent cant tera early. i would rather sacrifise one team slot and run cosmoem to make switching easier for me than sacrifise two to prevent my oponent from teraatalyzing and geting a win condition that only works if my oponent falls asleep.
also, covert cloak
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