Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]

[Link loyan]

What i hear a lot atm is thinking about how to vote, the problem is that there is a lot of politics in that in the way, that if we just ask on what to do out off all the options (lets say there are five options: no action, ban, tera blast ban, tera preview and tera blast ban + tera preview) and one has to get the supermajority, then we will never get any restriction because even if 100% of people wanted anything to be done but no ban, then there still would be no majority if the votes were even like 45/45/10, in my opinion we should ask it as a flowchart so that everyones thoughts can be accepted

<>noaction

<>tera preview/<>tera blast ban

<>ban


many people voting for ban would like any kind of restriction more than the metagame at hand so if you say "ban" you give your voice to the other restrictions as well, if you dont want a ban but a restriction or even both you can vote for them individually and if ban receives more than 60% we ban tera (which most likely wont happen but we need the option at least), if tera blast ban receives more than 60% we ban tera blast and if tera preview receives more than 60%, we implement tera preview. if both receive more than 60% we implement both

the thought on if someone votes ban is just a thought of mine, theres no problem in just giving the option to vote on everything seperately but if something is preferred by over 60% of the community i would like to implement that instead of saying "it should be the most preferred option by 60%, not just more preferred than the way we have it now" which is what i read in the post of Ehmcee here

Ranked Voting in terms of options is still a good idea, but keeping the dichotomy of supporting action and then your preferred option doesn't really work. There are many people that would rather Tera Preview, No Action, then Full Ban.

Ranked Voting should simply include the options available, with their preferred options in order.
As it comes to combination options (stuff like preview + tera blast ban), they should both be included on the same option, so we can get a good idea of the amount of people that want it (probably not a lot).

A final slate should prob look something like this:

Full Ban
No Ban
Tera Preview
Tera Blast Ban
Tera Preview + Tera Blast Ban
(Any other options that arise)

if that is the final slate then everyone needs to get more than one vote, if thats what you meant then okay, if not then it is heavily skewed in no actions favor and therefor imo gerrymandering or at least making the vote so that your option wins most likely. I dont say my thoughts arent on a side as well, however something we could do as well is have different rounds and in each round the least liked option goes away, so that the least despised option is the last one left and the one we implement (first vote we get rid of ban, second vote we get rid of no action, third vote we get rid of tera blast ban, fourth vote we get rid of tera preview -> we get both a tera blast ban and tera preview as an example)

Edit: The thoughtprocess is that we dont get the option most people love but the option the least people dislike

 

[658Greninja]

spoiler

Big Stall has won

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

we still have a month and a half at least to do things

well shit, turns out we actually have less time than i thought we did (unless they lied about the release date again, of course). i no longer think we have enough time to hold a tera suspect before the dlc drops

 

[mcandrew5629]

Here's a thought: can we please stop grouping the <60% that voted pro action on initial suspect into the same opinions? So many people on here are blatantly speculating on how people voted like "the no action voters are actually pro action people who didnt want a ban" or "we need to make sure people are voting for what they actually want". Tell me you never took a stats course without taking a stats course. It's even more asinine when you realize that the same people who are trying to speak for the voters are people who actually didn't even meet reqs to vote! Have y'all considered that maybe people simply just met the reqs and voted accordingly? Most people don't play 4D chess voting decisions but simply vote how they feel.

And also, ranked choice voting is NOT gerrymandering let's please try to steer conversation to something more productive.

 

[1LDK]

Since we have a DLC on a confirmed date, unless gamefreak does the usual "muh we are incompetent" thing, It's too late to suspect tera now, so my opinions is move it to November probably, time flies anyway

 

[P3DS]

Since we have a DLC on a confirmed date, unless gamefreak does the usual "muh we are incompetent" thing, It's too late to suspect tera now, so my opinions is move it to November probably, time flies anyway

Like in my post on it, Winter 23 for DLC 2 would put it way too close to a November suspect. Like, we are still squabbling over the current format, and can't even decide the best tera suspect method (Ranked sucks and you get the least satisfaction, and yes/no ban won't get enough support). It's more likely late Jan, early Feb before we are ready for it.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

We have no idea the breadth of what the DLC will bring, but if it's 5 new Pokémon, Clefable, and Gliscor, I don't see them shaking up Tera to the extent that we need to wait 6 months to suspect it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I think waiting until release probably makes sense but I'm not sure enough will change to radically alter the timeline. We'll see though

 

[Empress Mobile]

I would think having a yes/no "should something happen to Tera" question that could lead to either a full ban or a minor change would influence how people vote a lot more. In fact, I know it would, because we saw it happen in the last suspect. We would have had preview for months now if people didn't avoid voting "yes" on action because they were worried about a full ban even though they supported preview. And given that the way this vote was structured, eg letting people who support no action at all decide an action (which was obviously going to be the least impactful one) the first Tera suspect was not a complete exploration of whether Tera should be banned or not. That's why the matter was not settled after that first suspect test, even though HOME turned out to still been a while away.

Tera has no one "problematic issue" because it's used by many different threats for different purposes. There will be no single one-size-fits-all restriction that solves the Tera problem.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of tiering action. It's not to identify problems, it's to solve them. Suspect TESTS (hence the name) exist to identity problems. Bans, or in the case of Tera restrictions, exist to SOLVE them. In theory everyone voting in the suspect would be doing so because they've identified what they believe the problem is (or lack thereof,) not to test restrictions out and see what happens. And in that vein...

Two different approaches. I understand how tiering policy works and have been discussing these topics for over a decade. I think it's moreso you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between a fact and an opinion. There is nothing contrary to tiering policy to test one policy at a time. It's impossible to isolate something as the source of a problem if you add multiple restrictions at a time. And the idea that this can't be solved with a single restriction is just speculation. If it can't be fixed with a relatively simple solution, then a full ban is probably inevitable. It's possible we may look at implementing more than one restriction, but saying we will for sure is not something you can say with any certainty.

 

[Bakugames]

don't see them shaking up Tera to the extent that we need to wait 6 months to suspect it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

the list of pokemon is usually a bit larger and we dont know if we'll get new tutor moves or whatever
the main thing to me tho

Hide

is that we have confirmation tera has pokemon exclusive forms. maybe itll be legendary only but these legends will be part of the meta so bit risky to do it rn

 

[ianlazerbeem]

the list of pokemon is usually a bit larger and we dont know if we'll get new tutor moves or whatever
the main thing to me tho

Hide

is that we have confirmation tera has pokemon exclusive forms. maybe itll be legendary only but these legends will be part of the meta so bit risky to do it rn

We saw a funny face with Tera crystals. Let's not get ahead of ourselves

 

[Froctopus]

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We saw a funny face with Tera crystals. Let's not get ahead of ourselves

You seem like a "the glass is fucking empty" person, the announcement just dropped let people dream a little

Two different approaches. I understand how tiering policy works and have been discussing these topics for over a decade. I think it's moreso you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between a fact and an opinion. There is nothing contrary to tiering policy to test one policy at a time. It's impossible to isolate something as the source of a problem if you add multiple restrictions at a time. And the idea that this can't be solved with a single restriction is just speculation. If it can't be fixed with a relatively simple solution, then a full ban is probably inevitable. It's possible we may look at implementing more than one restriction, but saying we will for sure is not something you can say with any certainty.

The isolation is the issue, because I agree that Blast Ban or Blast Ban and Preview are much better than a complete ban of tera, but the problem lies in the fact that that decision is best done through ranked-choice, but I don't think that will be reliable because it forces there to votes for something you might be against. I think a possible action that could happen is go one step at a time, first a blast ban, then blast ban and preview, and if it still a problem an outright ban. But the problem with this approach is that now the DLC are announced we may not have the luxury of time anymore ....

 

[ant4456]

Personally I would rather Tera gets banned if we require more than one restriction on the mechanic.

 

[Rootb]

Personally I would rather Tera gets banned if we require more than one restriction on the mechanic.

Same, honestly. I don't really think it will require more than getting rid of the 120 BP coverage move aspect (and even that isn't really necessary, imo), but if it does? I'd sooner just throw in the towel than write out an increasing list of "ands".

Here's a thought: can we please stop grouping the <60% that voted pro action on initial suspect into the same opinions? So many people on here are blatantly speculating on how people voted like "the no action voters are actually pro action people who didnt want a ban" or "we need to make sure people are voting for what they actually want". Tell me you never took a stats course without taking a stats course. It's even more asinine when you realize that the same people who are trying to speak for the voters are people who actually didn't even meet reqs to vote! Have y'all considered that maybe people simply just met the reqs and voted accordingly? Most people don't play 4D chess voting decisions but simply vote how they feel.

And also, ranked choice voting is NOT gerrymandering let's please try to steer conversation to something more productive.

Also, I hope my posts don't come off as assuming I know what people would "really" vote for! In general, the only assumption I make when discussing things is that "full ban" is relatively less flexible, because not only are they the least happy with the status quo, but of the two that desire a firm outcome? They're the ones who also desire change.

 

[Bakugames]

We saw a funny face with Tera crystals. Let's not get ahead of ourselves

this is the opposite of getting ahead, its asking people to wait and see if anything new drops so we dont make a messy topic even messier by being hasty lol. i dont think itll be a big deal, but its good to keep in mind pokemon mechanics and their effects on the meta arent correlated to how flashy they are

 

[ant4456]

I don't think a Tera Suspect should be changed much by the metagame. Unless Tera itself changes in the first DLC, I'd like to see it get suspected with no delay, maybe even before the DLC.

Viewing Tera as a metagame first phenomenon is in my opinion weird, I think it is a mechanic that changes every single game regardless of meta. I do not think the meta changing would change thoughts on Tera, nor do I think it should.

 

[Empress Mobile]

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You seem like a "the glass is fucking empty" person, the announcement just dropped let people dream a little

The isolation is the issue, because I agree that Blast Ban or Blast Ban and Preview are much better than a complete ban of tera, but the problem lies in the fact that that decision is best done through ranked-choice, but I don't think that will be reliable because it forces there to votes for something you might be against. I think a possible action that could happen is go one step at a time, first a blast ban, then blast ban and preview, and if it still a problem an outright ban. But the problem with this approach is that now the DLC are announced we may not have the luxury of time anymore ....

This is the approach that I fully support, and I hope it's the one we move forward with.

 

[Wapf]

I don't think a Tera Suspect should be changed much by the metagame. Unless Tera itself changes in the first DLC, I'd like to see it get suspected with no delay, maybe even before the DLC.

Viewing Tera as a metagame first phenomenon is in my opinion weird, I think it is a mechanic that changes every single game regardless of meta. I do not think the meta changing would change thoughts on Tera, nor do I think it should.

Exactly. No matter what mons get added or banned, there will always be some broken ass setup mon that 6-0s you if you don’t guess what type it’s gonna switch into. The meta game isn’t going to affect the way tera is used, it’ll just slightly change what abusers there are.

 

[Froctopus]

Exactly. No matter what mons get added or banned, there will always be some broken ass setup mon that 6-0s you if you don’t guess what type it’s gonna switch into. The meta game isn’t going to affect the way tera is used, it’ll just slightly change what abusers there are.

You might (sadly) have a point here, if the meta refuses to change with the introduction of DLC mons, and it's still the same game plan of 'get your sweeper in and get your free tera set up turn' then I think I might have to re-evaluate my stance on Tera.

 

[Eelstartega]

I think we need to do something with tera ASAP. Now that Kingambit did not got banned despite MOST people wanting said ban, the message is clear cut: Do something with tera or we'll not let you enjoy gen 9 OU. I wish I was kidding, but indeed there was indeed people voting no action on Kingambit because it wasn't tera action and in their eyes "Kingambit was not broken, tera was", at least enough so It ended up from ban to no action.

PS: That "we" is from others, not myself. I wanted Kingambit banned all this time, specially after the 50% usage on high ladder despite being only a setup sweeper.

 

[Napoli Burns]

this metagame is more dead than maradona, december 2022 - september 2023 should be erased from pokemon history

the points listed in the first post are still valid after the failed gambit suspect? or everything is suspended since the new dlc arrive in a month and probably after that, indigo disk will arrive in 2023?

 

[mcandrew5629]

I think we need to do something with tera ASAP. Now that Kingambit did not got banned despite MOST people wanting said ban, the message is clear cut: Do something with tera or we'll not let you enjoy gen 9 OU. I wish I was kidding, but indeed there was indeed people voting no action on Kingambit because it wasn't tera action and in their eyes "Kingambit was not broken, tera was", at least enough so It ended up from ban to no action.

PS: That "we" is from others, not myself. I wanted Kingambit banned all this time, specially after the 50% usage on high ladder despite being only a setup sweeper.

This feels more like reckless speculation than an actual argument for a ban. Did you sample these voters for their ban reasoning? If so, can you include it in your post? If not, then I don't know how you can confidently claim that people got reqs just to sabotage a test.

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

I think we need to do something with tera ASAP. Now that Kingambit did not got banned despite MOST people wanting said ban, the message is clear cut: Do something with tera or we'll not let you enjoy gen 9 OU. I wish I was kidding, but indeed there was indeed people voting no action on Kingambit because it wasn't tera action and in their eyes "Kingambit was not broken, tera was", at least enough so It ended up from ban to no action.

PS: That "we" is from others, not myself. I wanted Kingambit banned all this time, specially after the 50% usage on high ladder despite being only a setup sweeper.

They're allowed to do that though, they can vote as they please. And this is a misunderstanding of why people didn't want gambit banned, not because they wanted action on tera but they were worried about a potential domino effect and some also felt it has sufficient counterplay.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

They're allowed to do that though, they can vote as they please. And this is a misunderstanding of why people didn't want gambit banned, not because they wanted action on tera but they were worried about a potential domino effect and some also felt it has sufficient counterplay.

No action against the totally balanced type changing counter nuking mechanic is infinitely more likely to produce a "domino effect" than banning mr steal your win

 

[Wapf]

I think we need to do something with tera ASAP. Now that Kingambit did not got banned despite MOST people wanting said ban, the message is clear cut: Do something with tera or we'll not let you enjoy gen 9 OU. I wish I was kidding, but indeed there was indeed people voting no action on Kingambit because it wasn't tera action and in their eyes "Kingambit was not broken, tera was", at least enough so It ended up from ban to no action.

PS: That "we" is from others, not myself. I wanted Kingambit banned all this time, specially after the 50% usage on high ladder despite being only a setup sweeper.

Tbf checking kingambit without tera would be as simple as:

Bring in mon that lives a hit.

Click fighting type move.

 

[FCKNfuego]

You might (sadly) have a point here, if the meta refuses to change with the introduction of DLC mons, and it's still the same game plan of 'get your sweeper in and get your free tera set up turn' then I think I might have to re-evaluate my stance on Tera.

The metagame won't change how the mechanic functions. It's gonna be the same thing with more sweepers.