That would imply Verlis is actually smart.
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Other The effectiveness of Baton Pass teams after the nerf
- Thread starter Arcanine is Regal
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My reaction to this thread
Dw, I have a few serious comments too.
1. I should try fast duel screens + memento. Deo-S is obviously ideal for this, but given that most mons are hard/impossible to ohko given hp investment and the right screen, I could see something like azelf or uxie working too. I'll have to research that.
2. While I do believe that the action taken was unwise, I also think that reopening the subject this soon would be a horrible mistake. I am still convinced that iron defense scolipede is broken, but this sort of knee jerk reaction sets an absolutely horrible precedent that I do not want to see set. Give the community time to realize the full impact of their decision and let them see why the bandwagon fallacy is that, a fallacy. This of course is assuming that the meta is still unhealthy, in the other scenario, the metagame is in fact healthy, reopening this issue would be an absolutely awful idea, and the previous sentence was just uncharacteristically premature gloating on my part.
3. This last point is a warning. In future suspects, assuming that the mon's name is not scolipede, virtually any ban made will almost inevitably help scolipede, as darn near every possible suspect at this point is a mon that checks scolipede. Don't believe me? Let me just list out the S ranked mons and state how their removal helps scoli.
Aeigislash: Easy, bulky mon that's not a particularly good quick pass recipient anyway that hits hard af on the special side and has very few swap ins.
Thundy: Good bye only offensive prankster taunter/twaver, good bye hard hitting, fast electric type, good bye one of the few reliable checks to the quick pass recipiant, good bye one of scoli's best anti leads. If this guy leaves, then scolipede should be suspected immediately imho.
Lando-I: Basically same as aeigi, except can learn SR to punish protect and outspeeds unboosted scoli.
Deo-S: The ban of any mon that can outspeed and ohko +1 speed scoli is a win for scoli, and deo-s is one of the few who can do this. Huge win for scoli, and 100% worth losing my derpy mixed revenge killer for.
Zard-X: One of the few phys mons that scolipede cannot setup in front of, as speed invested zard-x outspeeds unboosted scoli, and flare blitz kills unboosted scolipede, turning the matchup into a 50-50. Furthermore, getting rid of zard x means all zards are zard Y, so Scolipede can run rock slide to royally eff with one of his better checks.
Deo-D: Thunderwave is annoying for non-subs scoli, and the surprise psycho boost is never fun. Won't have to worry about red card shennanigans stopping a sweep prematurely. This guy's removal will prolly affect scoli the least though.
Literally every single S-Rank but one is a mon capable of anti-leading scolipede, and there are precious few of those in OU. Given that the S ranked mons are the ones most likely to be suspected, it stands to reason that the next suspect will strengthen scolipede.
That is pretty much all I have to say on the subject. I do not feel like reiterating why I think Scolipede to be broken unless someone reaaaally want me to reiterate that. I will probably not be making any other posts unless someone wants to argue any of the points I have made here.
Dw, I have a few serious comments too.
1. I should try fast duel screens + memento. Deo-S is obviously ideal for this, but given that most mons are hard/impossible to ohko given hp investment and the right screen, I could see something like azelf or uxie working too. I'll have to research that.
2. While I do believe that the action taken was unwise, I also think that reopening the subject this soon would be a horrible mistake. I am still convinced that iron defense scolipede is broken, but this sort of knee jerk reaction sets an absolutely horrible precedent that I do not want to see set. Give the community time to realize the full impact of their decision and let them see why the bandwagon fallacy is that, a fallacy. This of course is assuming that the meta is still unhealthy, in the other scenario, the metagame is in fact healthy, reopening this issue would be an absolutely awful idea, and the previous sentence was just uncharacteristically premature gloating on my part.
3. This last point is a warning. In future suspects, assuming that the mon's name is not scolipede, virtually any ban made will almost inevitably help scolipede, as darn near every possible suspect at this point is a mon that checks scolipede. Don't believe me? Let me just list out the S ranked mons and state how their removal helps scoli.
Aeigislash: Easy, bulky mon that's not a particularly good quick pass recipient anyway that hits hard af on the special side and has very few swap ins.
Thundy: Good bye only offensive prankster taunter/twaver, good bye hard hitting, fast electric type, good bye one of the few reliable checks to the quick pass recipiant, good bye one of scoli's best anti leads. If this guy leaves, then scolipede should be suspected immediately imho.
Lando-I: Basically same as aeigi, except can learn SR to punish protect and outspeeds unboosted scoli.
Deo-S: The ban of any mon that can outspeed and ohko +1 speed scoli is a win for scoli, and deo-s is one of the few who can do this. Huge win for scoli, and 100% worth losing my derpy mixed revenge killer for.
Zard-X: One of the few phys mons that scolipede cannot setup in front of, as speed invested zard-x outspeeds unboosted scoli, and flare blitz kills unboosted scolipede, turning the matchup into a 50-50. Furthermore, getting rid of zard x means all zards are zard Y, so Scolipede can run rock slide to royally eff with one of his better checks.
Deo-D: Thunderwave is annoying for non-subs scoli, and the surprise psycho boost is never fun. Won't have to worry about red card shennanigans stopping a sweep prematurely. This guy's removal will prolly affect scoli the least though.
Literally every single S-Rank but one is a mon capable of anti-leading scolipede, and there are precious few of those in OU. Given that the S ranked mons are the ones most likely to be suspected, it stands to reason that the next suspect will strengthen scolipede.
That is pretty much all I have to say on the subject. I do not feel like reiterating why I think Scolipede to be broken unless someone reaaaally want me to reiterate that. I will probably not be making any other posts unless someone wants to argue any of the points I have made here.
Perfect analogy, I would like to expand on this. But first let me say that although I am about to make a few comparisons, I would be a fool to say that baton pass is as bad as that swagger prankster bullshit. That being said I think some people are getting mixed up because they will see a well put together team that is taking advantage of a broken tactic and then say oh he must have skill to think outside the box like that. Just because there is a well constructed team around a broken strategy people are getting fooled into thinking these players are better than they actually are.
The points I want to reiterate are:
1. The new baton pass teams are still matchup based,
2. They still auto play just not to the same extent, the formula is the same every game, get up screens, rocks, and make a bunch of safe plays while setting up your chain as your opponent scrambles to handle the rocks and screens and still try and keep a lid on the stat boosts that are exponentially increasing per turn.
3. Baton Pass teams still have obscure counters that serve little to no purpose outside of handling baton pass.
With all this being said, it seems there is no point in bitching about it anymore. So I would like to shift this thread into talking about ways to handle the new bp teams. I will start off with a few that may have been mentioned but I feel are most promising.
Crobat(infiltrator+haze)
quagsire(unaware+haze) Edit: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132562350 haze quag losing to bp
sableye(prankster+taunt+knock off)
thundurus(prankster+taunt+nasty plot+strong special attacks)
lando-i(he can 2hko everything in existence, providing its unboosted)
The latter 2 may not be the best counter, but they are the best counter that can actually do other things in the OU tier. Let me know what you guys think about these listed and please add to the list.
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I think I love you.
As for the list, I feel confidant you can add Chandelure to it as well. Super Effective stab on both Scoliopede and Espeon complimenting its Infiltrator, in addition to access to infiltrator Clear Smog to keep stat boosts handled without being shut down by taunt. Only problem I see is not getting rocks up to handle Smeargle when he comes in for the sleep, but that should be easy enough to manage with the BP player setting up screens the first couple turns.
Noivern could be useful as well, with high damaging attacks back by Infiltrator once again, in addition to Trick to toss a choice item onto the opposing BP core.
The only problem with Landorus is that it just takes too long to get to him. Once Deo-S goes down with screens in place, you need one turn to switch to a defogger, another turn to defog, and finally a third turn to switch to Landorus. That's a free sub, and potentially two iron Ds. And while Lando can easily break Scoli's substitute with EP, he can simply BP to Smeargle as you break the sub, Spore/Dark Void Lando or whatever it switches to, get up a Quiver Dance or two, and then BP to Espeon who can by then tank an EP and OHKO Lando with Stored Power.
Thundurus seems to be a really good answer because it can taunt Deo-S who, at least in most of the replays I've seen, always runs Light Clay rather than Mental Herb. If Espeon switches in right away and bounces taunt back, or if Deo does have Mental Herb and taunts you as you fail to taunt it (or magic coats you), you've still got an insanely powerful thunderbolt that nothing really wants to take, even behind a screen (which will only be lasting for 4 turns or fewer). Once the taunt wears off in a couple turns, you're free to boost faster than Espeon can keep up with. Most Smeargles I've seen the past couple days have been running Sash, so they can be tauntable.
The downside of Thundy is that just like Lando, Thundy dies pretty quickly to Espeon's Stored Power, whereas it can't OHKO until it's got a NP under its belt (two if screens are up). Unaware Clefable also laughs its tiny fairy laugh at it, tanking anything Thundurus wants hit it with (even sludge wave). Although, forcing the opponent into Clefable early on isn't exactly a bad thing.
Mega Gardevoir does pretty well against BP teams, hitting even Scolipede hard and lol'ing at substitutes with that beautiful Hyper Voice. Obviously it doesn't want to have to hit through screens, but we've pretty much exhausted all the even remotely viable infiltrator pokemon out there (basically Noivern, Crobat, and Chandelure), so having to hit through screens is going to have to be a given from here on. Unless you want to run Brick Break on it. (lol) If you happen to be able to prevent the screens from being up somehow, though, or if you can perhaps get up a CM or two, the screen might be fairly irrelevant since you will still be doing major damage to things, and even more once it finally goes away. And as a bonus, you resist stored power. Of course, there's always Unaware Clefable who Mega Gardevoir can't do shit to, but again, being able to force the opponent out into one of the finishers early on is definitely a good thing.
I guess if you really want to go non-standard, you could run Infiltrator Jumpluff, who can sleep powder through a substitute and then u-turn out to something that can put in some work or roar/whirlwind (assuming ingrain isn't up), or perhaps leech seed through a sub to negate ingrain and lefties recovery. It's also immune to spore, as well as sleep powder and leech seed in case Espeon switches in on any of those moves. It can't really do anything to Espeon, although the surprise factor of infiltrator letting Sleep Powder behind a sub can mean the opponent doesn't think to switch to Espeon. And I guess it's not the worst thing in the world against non-BP teams, though it is rather subpar.
If you're looking for a grass infiltrator to ignore spore, I'de suggest whimsicott over Jumpluff. Better move pool, same access to u-turn, better STABs and access to moves like encore. Neither one is very ideal. Preferably, if you're looking for something to soak a spore from smeargle I would go for Amoongus or Breloom, who can Clear Smog (since Smeargle lacks Substitute now) or Mach Punch respectivly, depending on number of defense boosts acquired and status of screens.
Additionally, I'm not actually a big fan of Haze quagsire precisely for the reasons the replay showed. He can't do anything to pressure substitutes so it's just a net neutral matchup until Haze runs out of PP. Not very desirable. This is why Haze is better on something with offensive presence or at least Infiltrator.
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Six of one, really. Whimsicott's only real OU niche is prankster so it's not really any more generally viable running Infiltrator than Jumpluff. Their base stats are about the same and they want to run basically the same moves. Prankster Whimsicott is probably better than Infiltrator (or Chlorophyll) Jumpluff, but yeah.
Also, the idea was something to sleep powder or leech seed through sub, more so than tanking a spore (which I was just pointing out as a side bonus). Sometimes Smeargle runs Dark Void anyway.
That aside, I don't think Breloom is the greatest option since nobody will BP to Smeargle when there's a Breloom still on the field, at least not until they've got up a sub and/or defense boosts.
Clear smog won't work too well because even assuming Scoli didn't pass Smeargle a sub (which it will definitely try to do), Smeargle can just Ingrain on the switch, and BP back to Scoli as Amoonguss Clear Smogs. Then Scoli can set up a new sub and then start boosting again from scratch, this time recovering hp (and no longer fearing roar) thereby allowing it to stay on the field longer. It takes three CSs from the average Amoonguss to break a Scoli sub, two if it's max Special Attack.
Denis' new team is completely broken. We need to ban the move baton pass.
Please regard the following battles, and notice how none of his opponents stand a chance.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132557820
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132559076
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132559952
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132566602
Also, nobody dry passes, so there's no reason for BP in OU. Denis, much to his credit, discovered a new strategy, and this one is completely broken. The only way to have a chance to beat him is to run Haze/Perish Song/Taunt Mega Gyara. That's far more over-centralizing than anything else we've banned in the past.
Here's Denis beating a Haze Unaware team: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132573375 Even a team with arguably the best BP counter in the game falls to Denis' new team.
EDIT:
I realize there are Pokemon that beat BP pretty well e.g. Crobat and Whimsicott. But they have no OU viability, and even if they did, forcing someone to run one of a small pool of pokes is way too overcentralizing; it is anticompetitive. Hence, BP is bannable.
EDIT 2:
Here's Denis beating a team with SD Shedinja. He has no super effective attacks, but he still wins: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132581222
Please regard the following battles, and notice how none of his opponents stand a chance.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132557820
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132559076
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132559952
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132566602
Also, nobody dry passes, so there's no reason for BP in OU. Denis, much to his credit, discovered a new strategy, and this one is completely broken. The only way to have a chance to beat him is to run Haze/Perish Song/Taunt Mega Gyara. That's far more over-centralizing than anything else we've banned in the past.
Here's Denis beating a Haze Unaware team: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132573375 Even a team with arguably the best BP counter in the game falls to Denis' new team.
EDIT:
I realize there are Pokemon that beat BP pretty well e.g. Crobat and Whimsicott. But they have no OU viability, and even if they did, forcing someone to run one of a small pool of pokes is way too overcentralizing; it is anticompetitive. Hence, BP is bannable.
EDIT 2:
Here's Denis beating a team with SD Shedinja. He has no super effective attacks, but he still wins: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132581222
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My fav. Medicham set uses Baton Pass so don't ban the move pls thx.
The way I see it, there's three good alternative options:
1. Limit it to two BP users a team, or even just one. Three was arbitrarily picked cause people thought it would nerf it to the point of not being usable but it seems they were wrong.
2. Do nothing. Ya'll lost. You had ONE JOB and you blew it. Go home with some dignity.
3. Ban Espeon ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The way I see it, there's three good alternative options:
1. Limit it to two BP users a team, or even just one. Three was arbitrarily picked cause people thought it would nerf it to the point of not being usable but it seems they were wrong.
2. Do nothing. Ya'll lost. You had ONE JOB and you blew it. Go home with some dignity.
3. Ban Espeon ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The really strange thing is, in the old Baton Pass discussion thread, it was loosely established that a two-mon limit was better (see this post by Danilo among others), but the three-limit was basically arbitrary chosen. I would've rather played it safe here, but well.
It is pretty alarming to see that the strategy is as broken as ever, and I can understand the sentiment, that the move should just be offed altogether. I still have the feeling though, that we're being here far too reactionary, and overlooking better options with much less fallout.(Also, I like my BP Medicham too ;~;)
For example, since three was an arbitrary number, why wouldn't it be an option, to "upgrade" the limit to one, for instance? Or "switch" from Option 2 to Option 3 by mandate, making Denissss' whole strategy moot? But those are just my reservations, I might well be completely wrong, at this point is it to me completely unknowable. Just food for thought.
It is pretty alarming to see that the strategy is as broken as ever, and I can understand the sentiment, that the move should just be offed altogether. I still have the feeling though, that we're being here far too reactionary, and overlooking better options with much less fallout.
For example, since three was an arbitrary number, why wouldn't it be an option, to "upgrade" the limit to one, for instance? Or "switch" from Option 2 to Option 3 by mandate, making Denissss' whole strategy moot? But those are just my reservations, I might well be completely wrong, at this point is it to me completely unknowable. Just food for thought.
Did you even watch the replays you posted? First one the opponent makes a serious misplay switching heatran out on Deoxys-S, and gives up shortly thereafter. Second one the opponent switches in Chansey to take the Spore and forgets about Natural Cure. Third one is just completely outplayed by Denis - predicted the Ferrothorn switch in for Spore, then swapped out to Espeon to bounce the Leech seed which allowed him to bring Scolipede in for free and the opponent just (metaphorically) gives it to him by not even bothering to seed again. Fourth one is the only good match, and the chain comes very close to being broken at just about every link (unless someone wants to damage calc to prove that MMawhile had no chance of KOing Scolipede with Fire Fang). The Shedinja one is just a stall war.
I feel like many people here won't be happy till Denis himself is banned to Ubers.
What you, and many others fail to understand is that this is at a very high level of play. Obviously you can look back over a game and tell someone how they should have played it. But in the game both players know they are facing good opponents, so they are forced to make predictions. No one in any of the replays shown is bad, they just simply were forced into too many 50/50s or tried to over predict, in order to get some sort of advantage on the monster known as Baton pass.
That's not a reasonable argument though - if they get outplayed because the opponent outpredicts them and/or succeeds in mindgaming them then they just aren't as good. And that's what happened in 3/4 of those matches. Reverb was the only one of the four that seemed to be on level with Denis in terms of predictions and making good plays -
Also going to note I never said any of them were bad - they were just not as good as Denis in aspects that were important in those matches (namely prediction and mind games).
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The only thing I'm seeing from all this is that Deoxys-S is OP, since it guarantees screens. So yeah, it's a good thing both Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D are getting suspected, right?
I didn't have bad luck. I had no chance from the beginning.
EDIT:
That won't work. People will just use dual screen Azelf.
"Y'all lost" isn't an argument to keep the meta how it is if it isn't healthy. Plus, a decent number of us had the foresight to vote #3. I imagine many didn't because they didn't face 3-man BP chains on the suspect ladder. I was pro-option 2 until I faced a short chain, and I immediately changed my mind and voted #3.
I've faced short chains now on the ladder quite a bit since the ban. They've been gaining popularity now that people have a cookie cutter team to copy again. They are more manageable but still require certain very specific checks if the BP player is competent.
Don't forget Klefki *thumbs up*
I'll just say, I think the Deo's ought to be suspected regardless of their role in Screening for BP.
Honestly, I don't see Klefki substituting for Deo-S. The big difference that I see with Klefki is that it can't taunt you to prevent you from doing anything useful like NPing with Thundurus while it screens.
Azelf would probably be a better second choice for 3BP, as it is fast, learns taunt, and can even magic coat if it felt like it. That said...at least it could be tricked a scarf? lol. I imagine lots of people would use Uxie as well, and he even gets memento *shudders* So no stalling out the screen turns. Azelf could explode, too, though it would probably rather not because it wants the pokemon to stay alive so the player has to sac a turn to switch to the defogger.
Assuming 3BP does need a nerf, this would probably be a good start, since as I said, the Deos should probably be suspected one way or another. And this way if it does happen to help against 3BP, nobody would have to get butthurt about "no u had ur chance and u blew it lul"
Honestly, I don't see Klefki substituting for Deo-S. The big difference that I see with Klefki is that it can't taunt you to prevent you from doing anything useful like NPing with Thundurus while it screens.
Azelf would probably be a better second choice for 3BP, as it is fast, learns taunt, and can even magic coat if it felt like it. That said...at least it could be tricked a scarf? lol. I imagine lots of people would use Uxie as well, and he even gets memento *shudders* So no stalling out the screen turns. Azelf could explode, too, though it would probably rather not because it wants the pokemon to stay alive so the player has to sac a turn to switch to the defogger.
Assuming 3BP does need a nerf, this would probably be a good start, since as I said, the Deos should probably be suspected one way or another. And this way if it does happen to help against 3BP, nobody would have to get butthurt about "no u had ur chance and u blew it lul"
Psych Up? Are you serious? This move has no place in OU. Also, the Trick/Switcheroo user must have Infiltrator (Noivern and Chandelure are the only ones with a niche in OU) to bypass Substitute.
As, apparently, Baton Pass are still a problem after the nerf, here are my two cents about several options to nerf them even more:
- Lower the limit to 2 Baton Passers: It would force the new BP team to discard either Espeon or Smeargle from the Scoli-Espeon-Smeargle BP core. A possible workaround would be to keep Espeon in the team, but as a final recipient instead of as a Baton Passer (and thus freeing a moveslot for coverage such as Dazzling Gleam). Here, several (special) recipients are present in the team. Team composition wouldn't heavily change from Denis' 3-BP team. Another variant can include physical sweeping with Shift Gear Smeargle (more vulnerable to phazing without Ingrain).
- Lower the limit to 1 Baton Passer: Baton Pass would be now limited to either quickpassing or as a Pursuit-escaping tool (but not both in the same team). If Scoli is still here to pass Speed and Defense (behind screens, of course), Espeon can benefit from these boosts and sweep as effectively as before, except that it must spend a few turns using Calm Mind before sweeping. Smeargle is replaced by another "BP-counter counter" or a recipient. With all these recipients, Swords Dance Scolipede (or Shift Gear Smeargle) would look more appealing for physical sweeping. If Smeargle replaces Scoli to pass Quiver Dance, then screen support will be even more important to keep the chain intact.
- Banning Speed Boost and Magic Bounce from Baton Pass teams: Much more vulnerable to phazing and Taunt with little collateral damage. Ninjask would become a trash Pokémon limited to Sash + SD sweeping (in NU) and Scolipede would use a SD + 3 attacks set, but Espeon would be replaced by Deoxys-S or Klefki for dual screens (if Espy really wants to dual screen, Synchronize is an inferior choice to Magic Bounce). Speed boosting would be limited to Tailwind (Talonflame and Tornadus-I), Sticky Web (Shuckle), QuiverPass (Venomoth) and SmashPass (Gorebyss). The latter three options can be effectively used by Smeargle, who can also pass Ingrain for a phazing immunity. Note that if Scolipede wants to pass Swords Dance, it must have Swarm (also inferior to Speed Boost).
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Rotosect
Banned deucer.
It might be too early to speculate, but Klefki has a good chance of learning Stealth Rock (and possibly Magic Coat) from the move tutors in OR/AS and it's a matter of time until Custap Berry is released and we're back to Skarmory suicide leads who do Deo's job just as well. Banning them will just be a temporary solution.
In all honesty if smogon was going to allow a complex ban from the start, the option to ban Magic Bounce and Speed boost on the same team would have stricken so many birds with one stone it's not even funny. Espeon and Scolipede would be untouched individually, Baton Pass would not be banned within the context of now more reasonable chains or outside as an escape/quick pass move, etc.
Edit: RIP English.
Edit: RIP English.
Skarmory is very slow and can actually be taunted. Not to mention knock off is rampant this gen. There's a huge difference. In the context of 3BP there's an even bigger difference considering Skarm can't Magic Bounce or set up Screens.
That said, this thread isn't actually about whether to suspect Deo-S, that's just something I and others are brining up as something that will probably happen anyway and will affect 3BP.
Hey, I am Snackfriend, the guy who lost against Denissss playing with a Haze Quagsire. I think that BP is not broken or overpowered, because i had loads of matches against BP before and after the nerf and i could win VERY easy all the matches i had excepts the ones against Denissss (c0mp, Dat Tricking,... both players over 1.9k rate playing with BP that lost easy vs my team). This means Bp is not OP, the fact is Denissss could reach rank 1 with BP or without it. Stop qqing about Bp and try to learn something from a player that is without any doubt far better than you.
I would like to apologize for my english, i hope you can understand what i am trying to explain :P Cya
I would like to apologize for my english, i hope you can understand what i am trying to explain :P Cya
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