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The First Smogon Council - Salamence
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
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Can't we look at Salamence's physical attributes which make it one of the best pokemon in OU at the minute
highest base attack bar Metagross
high base special attack
high base speed
huge movepool with access to some of the strongest moves in the game
only one resistance for his stab moves out of the 17 types (fair enough it is one of the most common types in OU)
only 2 weaknesses and most teams have to pack some moves to counter this guy banning him to OU would diversify the metagame
highest base attack bar Metagross
high base special attack
high base speed
huge movepool with access to some of the strongest moves in the game
only one resistance for his stab moves out of the 17 types (fair enough it is one of the most common types in OU)
only 2 weaknesses and most teams have to pack some moves to counter this guy banning him to OU would diversify the metagame
I agree entirely. As I have said since the beginning of this thread, complaining about your own inability to outplay your opponent should not merit Salamence getting banned. Garchomp was a game-breaker. Salamence is nowhere near his level.
Please change your diaper. He has three weaknesses (Rock, Ice, and Dragon) and all three are common attacking types. Before you say "that's because of salamence" you should realize that these attacking types are the most common in the game because dragon is only resisted by steel, and ice and rock take out powerful pokemon such as Zapdos. In addition, having "high stats" is simply the quality of a pseudo-legendary, and just as you mentioned Metagross, you could make this same argument for him.
Or he could Earthquake in an attempt to simply kill Heatran knowing the 2HKO on the incoming bulky water is still possible with a subsequent Draco Meteor. Hell, he could even Dragon Dance, in which case your Blissey is fucked. Or he could take this time to Roost off the residual damage that people keep saying should keep him OU.
While I do agree Garchomp is way more game-breaking than Salamence, I disagree with you saying its a single person's inability to "outplay your opponent." Salamence simply has that effect when he shows up, he's too unpredictable - its not about one's inability to play around him.
VKCA
(Virtual Circus Kareoky Act)
I think this is an awful point. Maybe some people are only facing shitty battlers who make really obvious predictions, while others are all facing really good battlers who make really good predictions.
So half the people are getting wrecked and the other half are not. Salamence is not as ridiculous as garchomp because he is so outright powerful, he is so absurd because of his unpredictability.
You can't just say "while he'd obviously EQ against a heatran locked into earth power because it's super effective", because everyone would call you a retard. They would point out that he would predict that you will switch out, and use a different move. But which move he uses depends on A) your opponent random tendencies (maybe the opponent you are currently facing uses draco meteor all the time because he thinks it's cool) B) your opponents knowledge of your team and C) your opponents ability to guess what you are going to based on past predictions in the match.
B) and C) are both not applicable at the beginning of a match. Your opponent knows little about your team and knows little about your predicting style (and inadvertently, you know little about your opponents predicting style and his team). That means that (unless you have battled before), you have no fucking clue what he is going to do. Maybe he'll predict your prediction of him using draco meteor and acctually use fire blast and catch your skarm switch in off guard. Maybe you'll predict that will happen and switch to blissey, only to get outrage.
You are guessing blind. And when you are battling something as powerful and as versatile as salamence, this is a very bad thing.
Ok, stop right there. Because you are already misperceiving the strategy.
In the example video, I did not leave skarmory in because I'd be willing to leave anything in on Salamence. That is a bad misconception. For instance, I'd never leave Flygon (my key to winning almost every game) in on anything it couldn't beat outright. In this battle, it just so happened that my least necessary pokemon was out at the time Salamence came in. But! Neither is my strategy as simple as throwing out my least valuable pokemon to sacrifice to Salamence-- that's not the point either.
What I am doing is NOT sacrificing, but making a smart move that also takes into account potential damage risk to my team (in this case, making a strong move against the enemy while keeping in mind the POSSIBLE risk of losing skarmory).
After all, it's always possible he'll DD up and let me blow him out. I'm prepared for either situation.
In short, it's more complicated. It requires a brain to play this game.
When facing a powerful sweeper, and this goes not only for salamence, but against pretty much ANY difficult switch in, there are not 1, but 2 main factors and a bunch of minor factors that go into the decision. The two main factors are:
A) Initial Prediction of the incoming move
B) Evaluation of risk to the team
These are the two immediate factors that come to mind whenever facing a difficult switch-- or in fact, facing any turn in the game when thinking from a defensive perspective.
A is where the prediction occurs-- what you think Salamence is going to do next. However, A is gambling, because it is not knowledge, it's a guess.
B however, is real knowledge. You know what the risks are to your team, and you know exactly the most deadly possible outcomes for your team-- so you can rely on B as real basis for influencing decisions.
However, it's the culmination of A and B that gives you your final decision. In the decision facing Skarmory v. Salamence, I might initially predict that Fire Blast is coming, but evaluate that leaving skarmory in poses the least threat to my team, and decide to stay in. Or, if I'm REALLY REALLY certain fire blast is coming, I might switch even if the possible damage to my team from a mis-predict is higher.
It all depends.
The point is that you play the game making decisions that take both potential risk and prediction into account. Also keep in mind that playing while assessing potential risk means that you also consider back up plans. You know will happen if you mispredict and how to turn it around if necessary. You don't make the move until you consider what could be happening on the turn after that.
If this were a game like Go and Chess I would be more understanding about having issues predicting the enemy moves, but in Pokemon there are only 4 possible scenarios (at best) from the enemy side, so it's easy enough to imagine the possible positions on the next turn.
On the offensive side, Salamence can only try to predict what you will be switching in and trying to hit you with the right move (or DD at the propper time). But the risks of not going for the obvious fire blast on the skarm in front of it is high, and it is harder for it to throw out move Y (usually d-meteor) just because it represents the most potential damage to the enemy team.
Defensively speaking, you are better able to set yourself up for the next turn based on B assessment, or make a play to base a turn on A while having a back up plan via more assessment. There's more flexibility on the defensive side. Salamence has only 4 attacks, but you have multiple pokemon to switch to, or stay in and use a number of different moves yourself.
If you play smart on both assessing risk (and yes being aware that risk IS present and SHOULD be in this game) and making your predictions, Salamence becomes much less scary.
cheers _Carbon_ and kokoloko for backing my point up
Zelrio cheers for reminding me about Salamence's weakness to rock and i know that ice dragon and rock are common types but how often is a pokemon placed on team to counter or revenge kill a Salamence?
Think if it was banned to ubers of the diversification that would happen to the game
your comment about the diaper wasn't too helpful we all have to start somewhere
Zelrio cheers for reminding me about Salamence's weakness to rock and i know that ice dragon and rock are common types but how often is a pokemon placed on team to counter or revenge kill a Salamence?
Think if it was banned to ubers of the diversification that would happen to the game
your comment about the diaper wasn't too helpful we all have to start somewhere
Let's say both sides play perfectly. This is #1 on the OU ladder vs. #2 on the OU ladder. Both have been playing pokemon competitively for years, hours every day, live and breathe pokemon only.
Both sides equally know about their team, and what it can or can't handle. This is the same for both teams.
The question is, does Salamence make the game completely about whether the defending predicts correctly or not?
If both players are equally skilled, then yes.
Both players know a certain amount about their opponent, and everything about their own team. The person with Salamence can use their knowledge of the opponents' team to make a decision on which attack to use, which especially in the case of Draco Meteor, has little negative consequence to an incorrect guess as even the strongest walls take significant damage. A correct guess in the hands of the perfect player on offense is a winning scenario in the case of Salamence.
Is a perfect guess a win for the defending player? No, as the defending player still has to deal with the consequence of the attack used by Salamence, plus the possibility of it switching to come back in later. It is not gone. If the player on offense predicts correctly, your pokemon is gone.
The consequence for the defending player getting it wrong is MUCH higher than the Salamence player getting it wrong. Conversely, it is also a much bigger game changer if the Salamence player gets the prediction right than if the defending player does.
Having to depend on luck to deal with Salamence on defense puts it in favor of the player on offense, opening up a sweep is much more likely than not having Salamence, and that falls under the Support uber characteristic. If you flip heads and win, but flip tails and still can win, that's an unfair advantage.
Both sides equally know about their team, and what it can or can't handle. This is the same for both teams.
The question is, does Salamence make the game completely about whether the defending predicts correctly or not?
If both players are equally skilled, then yes.
Both players know a certain amount about their opponent, and everything about their own team. The person with Salamence can use their knowledge of the opponents' team to make a decision on which attack to use, which especially in the case of Draco Meteor, has little negative consequence to an incorrect guess as even the strongest walls take significant damage. A correct guess in the hands of the perfect player on offense is a winning scenario in the case of Salamence.
Is a perfect guess a win for the defending player? No, as the defending player still has to deal with the consequence of the attack used by Salamence, plus the possibility of it switching to come back in later. It is not gone. If the player on offense predicts correctly, your pokemon is gone.
The consequence for the defending player getting it wrong is MUCH higher than the Salamence player getting it wrong. Conversely, it is also a much bigger game changer if the Salamence player gets the prediction right than if the defending player does.
Having to depend on luck to deal with Salamence on defense puts it in favor of the player on offense, opening up a sweep is much more likely than not having Salamence, and that falls under the Support uber characteristic. If you flip heads and win, but flip tails and still can win, that's an unfair advantage.
Ice-eyes
Simper Fi
This is the point that I was trying to make earlier in the thread. You can provide examples and logs of the times you repeatedly outpredicted Mence, but if you're cherrypicking then you're not thinking about the bigger picture.
EQ+DM doesn't get the kill on the bulkier Waters like Suicune and Milotic, IIRC. Anyway, I'm talking about New MixMence here, and they don't run DD or Roost. Also, even if he does DD up, you can again, use your logic to figure out what move he'll use next. Mence cannot afford to mispredict against Blissey (Otherwise you eat Thunder Wave/Toxic/Ice Beam to the face), so Outrage is more likely, which means you can easily save your Blissey. When I say "use logic and analytical skills to reduce the chances of a misplay", it doesn't mean you're going to beat the Mence player 100% of the time. There will be times where the Mence player outpredicts you and gets the kill. However, it is nowhere near a 50-50 chance.
Speaking of Blissey, it's funny how people lol at blind Outraging here while I get easy KOs on that fat pink bitch all day because they expect MixMence. I'm actually thinking of vacillating between MixMence and DDMence randomly on my main team just to see how players react to it.
f
However, even if it WAS true, the issue is that everything you have said can be applied to any powerful offensive pokemon. It can be applied to Dragonite, Kingdra, Infernape, Specs-Starmie (with option to trick blissey), Scarf Heatran, or even pokemon like Jirachi or Flygon. Any time powerful sweeper X comes in on slower pokemon Y, you will face the same situation.
If all of those pokemon predict properly, you will be losing pokemon, period.
First off, I don't agree with the above because it is an over-simplification. Team building is what breaks the above situation, and the consequences for mispredicting with mence are real.
However, even if it WAS true, the issue is that everything you have said can be applied to any powerful offensive pokemon. It can be applied to Dragonite, Kingdra, Infernape, Specs-Starmie (with option to trick blissey), Scarf Heatran, or even pokemon like Jirachi or Flygon. Any time powerful sweeper X comes in on slower pokemon Y, you will face the same situation.
If all of those pokemon predict properly, you will be losing pokemon, period.
And in comes Steel to revenge your Mence. You traded kills. Big woop.
EDIT: Oh and MixMence Outrage doesn't even kill 4/252 Blissey: 67.91% - 80.06%, neither is DD Mence guaranteed to kill Blissey without a boost either: 80.84% - 95.33% (Assuming SR).
But, here's the thing. Some of those pokemon you list do have counters. A well built team takes into consideration the top threats of OU, and while Dragonite and Infernape may not have counters (I predict suspect test on both if Salamence gets voted to ubers), Jirachi, Flygon, Heatran and Starmie do.
I agree that they are strong, that's a given. But, Flygon just isn't getting through Skarmory or Bronzong, Heatran is a sitting duck against Swampert without HP Grass (Scarf-locked HP Grass?) or Blissey (if you can't switch moves), Jirachi can't handle taking out Magnezone (Flinch hax does win, like 0.02% of the time though) or bulky waters, and Starmie loses out to Blissey and Snorlax 100%. There are more viable counters and some sets that can get by them, but these are much more concrete counters than those for Salamence.
Skilled players know that checking Salamence is much, much better than countering it, so nearly none pack a counter. But, those pokemon that can counter the other big boys see plenty of play.
Predicting Flygon's set is pointless if you have a Bronzong. You win by going to Bronzong 100% of the time on that prediction.
The ultimate point is that a pokemon doesn't need counters to be OU. That has been an accepted fact since the beginning of 4th gen. Arguments about having/not having counters are insufficient.
I believe we are repeating arguments from previous pages, as I could totally swear that I had mentioned having no counters CERTAINLY makes you a better pokemon than having counters, and thus closer to uber than not.
Is that not the case?
Do we at least agree on that?
Uber or not, having no counters is a good thing. Salamence certainly fits that more than it does not, as there are very few pokemon and sets that can call themselves counters. Doesn't that make it better than the average pokemon?
yes
no
well, "yes" in the same sense that "Gastrodon is a better Pokemon than Luvdisc, therefore Gastrodon is closer to Ubers than Luvdisc", but that's a rather asinine point to be making
Outrage lasts 2-3 hits meaning I can switch out afterward. Ingenious, yes?
And Shrang, let me let you in on a little secret: just because something's a Steel type and Mence is using Outrage doesn't mean it will die. I've lost count of all the Heatran or Jirachi that have switched into Outrage, and almost none of them were Scarfed (the only variants capable of taking it out). If Outrage ends on the 2nd turn, I KO with a follow-up attack. If not, they retalliate with....what, exactly?
You guys can debate in this thread and cry theorymon all day, but your words aren't going to hold any weight without the playtesting experience to back it up. It's becoming more and more evident who's playing this game and who isn't. Consider this my last post in this terrible thread.
Hopefully, it is your last post, because I'm not theorymoning either. As I've mentioned before, I've been raped by CB Scizor spamming Bullet Punch more than I have ever lost because of Mence (Not that I've been been by Scizor many times, mind you). It's just when I post stuff like "Mence hasn't caused me any problems" people go "personal experience means nothing". My arguments have always been practically based.
If you've Outraged for 2 turns, you would have lost 25+12+20=57% of your health due to those two Outrages (Under normal battle conditions), so a lot of things that attack Mence will kill it. Heatran kills you with Dragon Pulse, Jirachi with Ice Punch (Heck even Iron Head will kill you). This is not to mention that Jirachi speed-ties and you are confused to Outrage. If you switch out, Mence will pretty much die upon next switch-in anyway.
kind of amusing that you only posted your first logs a few pages ago (after participating without them for nearly 60 pages) and now you're suddenly trying to use the "you guys are just THEORYMONNING GOSH its obvious that you're not playing pokemon and i am" line. not that i want to discourage you from staying away from this thread and not shitting it up further with your hyperbole
"cry theorymon all day"
Funny, because all the posts you yourself have made about "nobody can switch in" etc. etc., are just as "theorymonning" as the pro-OU's people's arguments. Plenty of things can switch in and check Salamence. Use that thing called your brain and do like ChouToshio stated. Assess risk, use your noggin. Salamence doesn't always predict right, and neither will you. It might score a kill, but so would another powerful Pokemon in that situation if you predicted incorrectly against it. Take, for example, SpecsTran, who's Fire Blast is really powerful. Just try and switch your Sally into in, Fire Blast has a chance to OHKO outright after Stealth Rock damage. 57% to Gyarados (89% factoring in SS / SR). Does this make SpecsTran Uber? Not much can switch into its Fire Blast without taking a chunk of damage. It punches holes, literally, with a single move. Out of the top OU Pokemon, Vaporeon and Blissey fare the best.
I can theorize all day about SpecsTran. Not much wants to take a Fire Blast to the face. Even more so an Overheat. Salamence punches holes from four move choices. Hell, I'd have less trouble from a Salamence than a Heatran. Especially if my own Heatran dies. It could potentially devastate my team, because I carry neither Blissey nor Vaporeon. Does that make Heatran uber because I need one of those two to defeat a variation of it?
Oops! I didn't take the time to safen my team against Heatran! It must be uber because it just swept my team 5-0, when I, the player, didn't want to use more than one Pokemon to check something deadly. -- That's basically what I'm getting from people complaining about having to use two or more slots. So what? That Vaporeon? Covers Gyara, Heatran, Salamence. Blissey? Almost every single Special oriented Pokemon in the game. Seriously.. Pokemon is about checking the most you can with six slots. Many of Salamence's checks have double roles in the team. You DON'T need off the wall Pokemon to beat Salamence, or that Heatran example. The sooner people realize this the better we'll all be.
Funny, because all the posts you yourself have made about "nobody can switch in" etc. etc., are just as "theorymonning" as the pro-OU's people's arguments. Plenty of things can switch in and check Salamence. Use that thing called your brain and do like ChouToshio stated. Assess risk, use your noggin. Salamence doesn't always predict right, and neither will you. It might score a kill, but so would another powerful Pokemon in that situation if you predicted incorrectly against it. Take, for example, SpecsTran, who's Fire Blast is really powerful. Just try and switch your Sally into in, Fire Blast has a chance to OHKO outright after Stealth Rock damage. 57% to Gyarados (89% factoring in SS / SR). Does this make SpecsTran Uber? Not much can switch into its Fire Blast without taking a chunk of damage. It punches holes, literally, with a single move. Out of the top OU Pokemon, Vaporeon and Blissey fare the best.
I can theorize all day about SpecsTran. Not much wants to take a Fire Blast to the face. Even more so an Overheat. Salamence punches holes from four move choices. Hell, I'd have less trouble from a Salamence than a Heatran. Especially if my own Heatran dies. It could potentially devastate my team, because I carry neither Blissey nor Vaporeon. Does that make Heatran uber because I need one of those two to defeat a variation of it?
Oops! I didn't take the time to safen my team against Heatran! It must be uber because it just swept my team 5-0, when I, the player, didn't want to use more than one Pokemon to check something deadly. -- That's basically what I'm getting from people complaining about having to use two or more slots. So what? That Vaporeon? Covers Gyara, Heatran, Salamence. Blissey? Almost every single Special oriented Pokemon in the game. Seriously.. Pokemon is about checking the most you can with six slots. Many of Salamence's checks have double roles in the team. You DON'T need off the wall Pokemon to beat Salamence, or that Heatran example. The sooner people realize this the better we'll all be.
Personally, the best arguments made so far are:
Pro OU-
Sandstorm and Rocks neuter it
Plenty of pokemon can check it as a revenge kill, especially priority
A few pokemon can switch into 2/3 moves out of 4 and threaten
Good strategy and gameplay effectively counter Salamence (Duplicate argument, same as uber argument)
Pro Uber-
Sweeps too well from both sides, with only 5 different moves between the 2 sets
Draco Meteor and Outrage both only have one resist, few/none can take both
Good strategy and gameplay make Salamence too good (Duplicate argument, same as OU argument)
I think the majority of those making arguments assume either player is not playing at the same level of competance, because the same argument is being used on both sides. Skill should not be a factor in whether Salamence is uber.
Like someone said, if one person is good enough to fully take advantage of a pokemon to the point that it is uber, the pokemon is uber. Garchomp would still be ubers even though noobs primarilly sucked playing with it. Those that knew what they were doing used it correctly and easily swept teams. (They didn't try to Baton Pass to it for example)
Pro OU-
Sandstorm and Rocks neuter it
Plenty of pokemon can check it as a revenge kill, especially priority
A few pokemon can switch into 2/3 moves out of 4 and threaten
Good strategy and gameplay effectively counter Salamence (Duplicate argument, same as uber argument)
Pro Uber-
Sweeps too well from both sides, with only 5 different moves between the 2 sets
Draco Meteor and Outrage both only have one resist, few/none can take both
Good strategy and gameplay make Salamence too good (Duplicate argument, same as OU argument)
I think the majority of those making arguments assume either player is not playing at the same level of competance, because the same argument is being used on both sides. Skill should not be a factor in whether Salamence is uber.
Like someone said, if one person is good enough to fully take advantage of a pokemon to the point that it is uber, the pokemon is uber. Garchomp would still be ubers even though noobs primarilly sucked playing with it. Those that knew what they were doing used it correctly and easily swept teams. (They didn't try to Baton Pass to it for example)
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