Project The OU Underdog Project (Week 17: Gogoat)

[Byrn Dragonstone]

Uh, sorry but I think you're being really biased here just to make Salamence look good. You give the hyperbole that Salamence has a much higher damage output with Moxie, but that actually requires it to get a kill in first giving it limited opportunities; meanwhile, Charx has fantastic immediate power from the get-go with Tough Claws which you neglected to mention. You're also really glossing over the fact that Dragon + Fire is ridiculously good physical STAB coverage; the only things it doesn't really hit well being Azu, Alt, Tran and base Diancie (diancite is frail af and dies to blitz). As for items, in the context of a d-dancer choice items and av are kind of irrelevant; the only items you'd run would be life orb, lefties and... maybe dragon fang? I mean the way you've written everything out it seems to make sense, but in practise mence really won't perform as well as a charx sub as you've written; especially the point about entry hazard damage - they both rely on defog support to sweep.
I mean I get there's reasons to use Mence over Charx as already highlighted in the thread but I don't think this is the right way to sell it as this seems really biased and glosses over very key important factors such as the lower support Charx needs - literally just a defogger/spinner and an alt/azu/tran check - as well as some of it's bigger pros as I've already stated. Salamence's loss of a good Flying STAB (lol aerial ace and fly) also makes it incredibly hard to sweep/late-game clean with, as OU's relatively recent influx of steels and fairies makes what is basically mono-dragon STAB difficult to use. If you wanna say why it works better as a dragon dancer tbh I'd be focusing more on it's special movepool which is much more of a pro than anything else mentioned - you did give a solid explanation on intimidate as a big pro tho props for that; it's p nice as a bulkier ddancer
Sorry if I've misinterpreted things here but the post does seem kinda biased in mence's favour which ultimately won't help it's case much


also in your mence vs dragonite comparison neither take up a mega slot and both have no secondary stab; and let's not act like nite isn't versatile -- you also failed to mention e-speed, a massive selling point of nite

Answering the first part. Tough Claws Charizard does less damage then a Salamence with a Life Orb. Not by much but it does. A Moxie boost isn't that hard to get most of the time. Mence has the advantage of a nice mixed movepool as you pointed out, letting it get past some of the the things that can check it depending on the moveset. I mentioned that Salamences STAB is a weak spot, Charizards is better. Salamence also has a lot of utility over Charizard, thanks in most part due to the ability to hold items. And yes defog is very nice for both, but looking at a match where you are not able to defog, Salamence takes notably less damage from hazards then Charizard.

The last points were meant to be an overall evaluation, not a comparison between Mence and Dnite. The Mence VS Dnite argument was beaten to death in fifth gen, and not much has changed since then so I left it at that. They are so similar that it is difficult to tell which one is better, I lean towards Mence personally because of speed, but that is just a personal opinion.

I was a bit biased towards Mence, but mostly because I just see a lot of parroting about him on the forums. Something along the lines of "it is just horrendously outclassed by a large number of other Pokémon." Personally I have not seen any stats, calculations, or even reasons given most of the time, and it bothers me a bit that it is just accepted as such. A Mon that hits as hard as Charizard-X, with decent bulk, an amazing movepool some pokemon would kill for, two great abilities, not to mention that you can run it alongside other mega's (like Metagross), and yet it is just swept under the rug by many people.

That is just my two cents.

 

[Teeny Victory]

The main thing that really has dropped mences viability to the depths of obscurity was the introduction of fairy types and the whole slew of Mega Dragon Dancers XY+ORAS introduced. Mence lost the ability to spam Outrage and gather up boosts with moxie because of the sheer popularity of fairy types such as Azumarill, Clefable and Altaria, which are all on basically every team in combined usage. While immunities aren't really a problem for alot of mons, Fire types do fine with Heatran around and ground types are still amazing even with all these levitators and Flying types around, the problem Mence faces with these mons is the free turns it hands out to these very dangerous set up sweepers. Mega Altaria is extremely hard for offensive teams to handle once it gets to +1 with its coverage and power, Clefable is very east to snowball with because of the ease it can continuously set up calm minds with, and Belly-Drum Azumarill is nigh-impossible for weakened offensive teams to deal with. This is especially annoying for mence because it does best on hyper offensive teams, which really struggle with set up mons outside of prankster T-Wave and weak priority, which can often not be enough for threats such as BD Azumarill and DD + Refresh M-Altaria. this often makes Mence a liability to run on most teams, and is one of the reasons its not used very often.

With the whole slew of Mega Dragon Dancers XY brought us, such as Altaria, Zard-x, Tyranitar and Gyarados, as well as other mega set up sweepers such as Houndoom, Pinsir, Gallade, Heracross and scizor. Now, while you may be perfrectly correct in thinking "But Teeny! opportunity cost is a thing which restricts these mons, right?", Dragon Dancers and set up sweepers in general are pokemon that thrive with teams built around them, and seeing as you'll often be picking this mon first, you would be inclined to make the obvious choice in picking the much more dangerous mega pokemon instead of the puny salamence. Now yes, it is often advised against building around mega pokemon, for good reason, these pokemon are so good at what they do that they are worth the mega slot they take up, and often your team will want the remaining 5 slots to support, wallbreak, and work with the sweeper, and salamence finds itself having nowhere to fit in, and is passed up so often on common OU teams.

A big Non-Mega Dragon Dancer that is also very commonly chosen over mence is the mighty Dragonite. Lets compare these two pokemons stats first up:
Salamence: 95 / 135 / 80/ 110 / 80 / 100

Dragonite: 91/ 134 / 95 / 100 / 100 / 80

So basically they have identical Attack stats (mence reaches 405 and D-Nite reaches 403), near Identical Special Attack stats (which is irrelivant regardless), and Mence has the edge in speed, which doenst really do muhc as D-Nite outspeeds all common OU pokemon at +1 except M-Sceptile, Beedrill . The Bulk is where D-Nite wins over however, mence slightly wins on Hp by 4 base stats, but D-Nite has a whopping 15 more Defence and 20 more special Defense, meaning it can set up a DD much easier and can take lots of priority. D-Nite also beats Mence in abilitys, Multiscale is like the holy grail of abilitys for a set up sweeper, which is saying something considering how good Intimidate is on set up sweepers. Multiscale basically allows D-Nite a guaranteed set up against all mons except Weavile and mamoswine, and it can then wreck havoc on the opposing team with its powerful outrages and great coverage.

Now, the final thing that really restricts Mences viability is its lack of a secondary STAB to hit Dragon resists with, or the lack of any secondary STAB at all tbh. Zard-X has Fire to form a nearly unresisted STAB combo with dragon, Gyara has Water + Dark, which is very good offensively with few resists in the OU tier and M-TTar has a fantastic Dual STAB combo that hits a large majority of the tier super effectively. This leaves Mence to rely on both Earthquake and Iron tail to hit fairy and steel types, and it can't really give either of these up for fear of being walled by common mons. This means it doesn't have the option to run moves such as roost, sub, tailwind etc. in its moves, which gives it a slight case of 4MSS, and leaves it easily walled by pokemon such as Azumarill and Scizor that resist/are immune to its dragon STAB and easily take the neutral non-STAB coverage moves that Mence tries to throw at them.

So really the only niche I see Mence having is as a lure/late game cleaner on dragon spam teams, I wont post a set because its already been stated above.

TL;DR
Mence was left behind with the many new editions of XY, and finds itself struggling to find a proper placement in the meta, but has a very small niche on dragon-spam teams

 

[Byrn Dragonstone]

The main thing that really has dropped mences viability to the depths of obscurity was the introduction of fairy types and the whole slew of Mega Dragon Dancers XY+ORAS introduced. Mence lost the ability to spam Outrage and gather up boosts with moxie because of the sheer popularity of fairy types such as Azumarill, Clefable and Altaria, which are all on basically every team in combined usage. While immunities aren't really a problem for alot of mons, Fire types do fine with Heatran around and ground types are still amazing even with all these levitators and Flying types around, the problem Mence faces with these mons is the free turns it hands out to these very dangerous set up sweepers. Mega Altaria is extremely hard for offensive teams to handle once it gets to +1 with its coverage and power, Clefable is very east to snowball with because of the ease it can continuously set up calm minds with, and Belly-Drum Azumarill is nigh-impossible for weakened offensive teams to deal with. This is especially annoying for mence because it does best on hyper offensive teams, which really struggle with set up mons outside of prankster T-Wave and weak priority, which can often not be enough for threats such as BD Azumarill and DD + Refresh M-Altaria. this often makes Mence a liability to run on most teams, and is one of the reasons its not used very often.

With the whole slew of Mega Dragon Dancers XY brought us, such as Altaria, Zard-x, Tyranitar and Gyarados, as well as other mega set up sweepers such as Houndoom, Pinsir, Gallade, Heracross and scizor. Now, while you may be perfrectly correct in thinking "But Teeny! opportunity cost is a thing which restricts these mons, right?", Dragon Dancers and set up sweepers in general are pokemon that thrive with teams built around them, and seeing as you'll often be picking this mon first, you would be inclined to make the obvious choice in picking the much more dangerous mega pokemon instead of the puny salamence. Now yes, it is often advised against building around mega pokemon, for good reason, these pokemon are so good at what they do that they are worth the mega slot they take up, and often your team will want the remaining 5 slots to support, wallbreak, and work with the sweeper, and salamence finds itself having nowhere to fit in, and is passed up so often on common OU teams.

Metagross, Scizor, Gengar, and Venusaur all handle fairies very well, being able to come in on all of the ones you mentioned and OHKO most of the time. And since your mega slot isn't being used by Salamence they make great teammates for him, something no other mega can say. People seem to be stuck on just Spamming a Dragon move with Mence to get boosts, instead of say, using fire blast on scizor to grab a boost, or earthquake on Heatran, two pokemon that are often used as dragon checks in OU. Mence also doesn't provide free set-up unless the person using it is literally spamming outrage. Here are some Calcs:

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 155-183 (39.3 - 46.4%)
252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 250-294 (63.4 - 74.6%)
252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Iron Head vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 139-165 (38.2 - 45.4%)
252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Iron Head vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 140-166 (38.4 - 45.6%)
252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 177-208 (48.6 - 57.1%)
252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 175-207 (48.2 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 99-117 (27.9 - 33%)

So Most of the time he won't OHKO a switchin, but if we look at some mons that might be run with him:

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 218-260 (61.5 - 73.4%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 195-229 (53.5 - 62.9%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 195-229 (53.7 - 63%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 344-408 (87.3 - 103.5%)

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 452-534 (114.7 - 135.5%)
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 372-440 (94.4 - 111.6%)
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 392-464 (127.6 - 151.1%)
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 288-342 (81.3 - 96.6%)
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 255-301 (70.2 - 82.9%)
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 256-303 (70.3 - 83.2%)

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 278-330 (76.3 - 90.6%)
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 278-330 (76.5 - 90.9%)
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 222-264 (62.7 - 74.5%)
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 222-264 (72.3 - 85.9%)
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 206-246 (52.2 - 62.4%)
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 252-296 (63.9 - 75.1%)

And its not like you are going out of your way to build around Salamence here, M-Metagross is S-Rank, Venusaur is A-Rank, and Scizor is A-Rank. And all of this is simply based off of having a DDMence.

A big Non-Mega Dragon Dancer that is also very commonly chosen over mence is the mighty Dragonite. Lets compare these two pokemons stats first up:
Salamence: 95 / 135 / 80/ 110 / 80 / 100

Dragonite: 91/ 134 / 95 / 100 / 100 / 80

So basically they have identical Attack stats (mence reaches 405 and D-Nite reaches 403), near Identical Special Attack stats (which is irrelivant regardless), and Mence has the edge in speed, which doenst really do muhc as D-Nite outspeeds all common OU pokemon at +1 except M-Sceptile, Beedrill . The Bulk is where D-Nite wins over however, mence slightly wins on Hp by 4 base stats, but D-Nite has a whopping 15 more Defence and 20 more special Defense, meaning it can set up a DD much easier and can take lots of priority. D-Nite also beats Mence in abilitys, Multiscale is like the holy grail of abilitys for a set up sweeper, which is saying something considering how good Intimidate is on set up sweepers. Multiscale basically allows D-Nite a guaranteed set up against all mons except Weavile and mamoswine, and it can then wreck havoc on the opposing team with its powerful outrages and great coverage.

Now, the final thing that really restricts Mences viability is its lack of a secondary STAB to hit Dragon resists with, or the lack of any secondary STAB at all tbh. Zard-X has Fire to form a nearly unresisted STAB combo with dragon, Gyara has Water + Dark, which is very good offensively with few resists in the OU tier and M-TTar has a fantastic Dual STAB combo that hits a large majority of the tier super effectively. This leaves Mence to rely on both Earthquake and Iron tail to hit fairy and steel types, and it can't really give either of these up for fear of being walled by common mons. This means it doesn't have the option to run moves such as roost, sub, tailwind etc. in its moves, which gives it a slight case of 4MSS, and leaves it easily walled by pokemon such as Azumarill and Scizor that resist/are immune to its dragon STAB and easily take the neutral non-STAB coverage moves that Mence tries to throw at them.

So really the only niche I see Mence having is as a lure/late game cleaner on dragon spam teams, I wont post a set because its already been stated above.

TL;DR
Mence was left behind with the many new editions of XY, and finds itself struggling to find a proper placement in the meta, but has a very small niche on dragon-spam teams

Personally I prefer Mence's speed over DNite's. Being outrun by a couple of Scarfers in the tier even after a boost sucks, particularly Kyurem-B, who OHKO's Dnite. Dnite has extremespeed to cover for that though. Really this is the only argument that I have seen that makes any sense, and yet it doesn't. They are different enough that both fill different slots on teams. Also from personal experience Dnite's ability only comes up in half of the battles he is in, because SR. You can say you run defog support but we all know that that doesn't guarantee the hazards will be gone when you need to switch-in. Intimidate may be slightly worse but at least it works all the time.

I give you the STAB thing, but Dnite suffers from the same and still sees usage.

Again I feel Salamence can shine in OU. It does suffer from competition as a dragon, but it has more then enough to set it apart from others and is completely capable of performing in OU. Also as a side note I had a team with Salamence on it that went 24 straight wins and no losses, so I know he can perform in OU.

A bit rushed here at the end, have to head to class, so I apologize if anything doesn't make sense. Will be back though.

 

[AM]

?

 

[Albacore]

Thanks a lot for the replies! Okay, this week's Pokemon is Jellicent!

Back in BW OU, Jellicent was a top-tier threat, it acted as great spinblocker with a Water immunity that could also stallbreak to some extent. Unfortunately, it completely fell out of favour in XY for multiple reasons, namely, the existance of Aegislash which mostly outclassed it as a spinblocker, the introduction of Defog making spinblockers less relevant, fact that a few of the things it used to wall like Scizor and Conkeldurr got acess to Knock Off with which to hit it, and to some extent the power creep the generation saw with the introduction of Mega Pokemon. Even when Aegislash was banned, Jellicent still stuggled to make any kind of impact in OU.

However, it still has a few qualities. Spinblocking is more relevant now than it has been since the Aegislash ban, what with the rise of hazard-stacking teams. Jellicent does a pretty good jobh at spinblocking most Starmie and Tentacruel sets for instance, though it has more trouble with Excadrill. It still has a nice typing, with immunities to two very common types in Water and Fighting, and thanks to Taunt and Will-O-Wisp can also stallbreak fairly well. Not to mention, its solid bulk and acess to reliable recovery makes it a fairly solid wall, despite having competition from the likes of Slowbro, Slowking, Suicune, Quagsire, Alomola, and Gastrodon.

So, is there any value left in Jellicent at all?

 

[SketchUp]

Jellicent trolls so many common fat stuff like Hippowdon, Ferrothorn and Tankchomp it's not even funny. You don't prevent rocks against Chomp obviously but you can burn it which makes him pretty useless outside of spamming Dragon Tail [which can be fixed with a fairy type] It is a pretty good Keldeo switchin especially if you manage to burn the incoming TTar / Bisharp. It is a pretty nice spinblocker but it also haves it own issues against hazards stacking. Spikes + Sand + Status is on every balanced team at the moment and the slow recovery doesn't help Jellicent, especially when you add Stealth Rock damage and the pursuit weakness. Other pokemon with slow recovery such as Hippowdon / Slowbro don't have these problems that much because they can switch into many more pokemon because of better bulk which gives them opportunities to Slack Off + they are much harder to wear down.
In my opinion Jellicent only fits on teams that are desperately looking for a spinblocker + keldeo check (+antilead) and even in that situation there are other options I'd consider over Jellicent. Of course the only pokemon that can beat Keldeo + spinblock besides Jellicent is Gourgeist, but stuff like Slowbro, Celebi and Raikou also beat Keldeo + common spinners and they are often better in situations like these because they also check other stuff really well. Probably being too negative on Jellicent but I've played with it a few months ago and it really sucks tbh.

 

[HappyHoopa05]

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Ball / Ice Beam / Magic Coat / Taunt / Trick Room

Jelicent can be viable in this metagame, considering his disuse, It can deal a lot of damage in the opposite's team with Burn or Dealing with some threats. This is the standart Special Defensive set. Scald it's the main damaging Option, with a ''high'' chance of burning, Recover is the Main Healing move, Will o Wisp It's an option for guaranteed burn, Considering TTar, Bisharp, Azumarill and others chekcers, Burning them could be a nice option for Support. The last move can depeds a lot. Shadow can be a Secondary STAB option for offensive move. Ice beam Hits Dragons and Grass Types. Magic Coat can be an Option for Deal with Taunt, Hazards, Etc... Taunt it's (my opinion) The Best last Slot, Dealing with Possible Ferrothorns and Other Supports / Switches. Trick Room it's usefull for (derp) Trick Room Teams. Jellicent can be used together with Possible G/F/W Cores (Zard X, Ferrothorn, Breloom, Heatran and others...), Also it's ''substitue'' for AV Azumarill, (Stard mons everywere)

 

[Spuun]

Unfortunately Jellicent loses to Mega-Gyara now :(

Jellicent (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 220 HP / 200 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
- Taunt / Will-o-Wisp

This is a really cool set posted in the Creative Sets thread awhile ago (I dont remember who posted it Ive just had it on showdown for awhile). Its a more offensive variant, still functioning as a complete stop to Keldeo. The given evs have a 99% chance to 2hko Heatran with Hydro Pump, and a 100% chance to ohko scarf landorus-t whilst dodging a death to Knock Off. Life Orb Gengar does a max of 98% (Albeit a lot), and Jellicent ohkos back assuming no damage on either. The speed outpaces 164 speed Azu so you can taunt it before it belly drums or willo if youre running that instead. Its a pretty strong set but obviously doesn't provide as much utility as the branded support one. Taunt is useful to completely stop Chansey / Blissey.

relevant calcs:

Hide

Starmie:
0 SpA Starmie Psyshock vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 117-138 (29.5 - 34.8%)
200+ SpA Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 236-278 (72.8 - 85.8%)

Landorus-T:
252 Atk Landorus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 308-364 (77.7 - 91.9%)
200+ SpA Jellicent Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 338-402 (105.6 - 125.6%)

Azumarill (if you need to wall this youll NEED will-o-wisp):
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 358-423 (90.4 - 106.8%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power burned Azumarill Play Rough vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 179-211 (45.2 - 53.2%)
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 240-283 (60.6 - 71.4%)
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Azumarill Play Rough vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 120-141 (30.3 - 35.6%)
200+ SpA Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 124-147 (34.1 - 40.4%)
200+ SpA Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 81-96 (20.1 - 23.9%)

Gliscor:
0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 180-212 (45.4 - 53.5%)
200+ SpA Jellicent Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 260-308 (73.8 - 87.5%)

Mega-Lopunny (again willo is very much wanted but it cant switch in, not that it would anyway):
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 295-348 (74.4 - 87.8%)
200+ SpA Jellicent Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 145-172 (53.5 - 63.4%)

Heatran:
200+ SpA Jellicent Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 204-242 (52.9 - 62.8%)

Latios:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 220 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 265-313 (66.9 - 79%)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 230-270 (58 - 68.1%)
200+ SpA Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 188-224 (62.8 - 74.9%)

Mega-Slowbro:
4 SpA Mega Slowbro Psyshock vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 145-172 (36.6 - 43.4%)
200+ SpA Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 248-294 (62.9 - 74.6%)

Mega-Diancie:
4 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 219-258 (55.3 - 65.1%)
200+ SpA Jellicent Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 260-308 (107.8 - 127.8%)

Garchomp:
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 262-310 (66.1 - 78.2%)
200+ SpA Jellicent Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 180-213 (50.4 - 59.6%)

Its decent against mons that are weak to its stab and can sustain vs bulkier teams whilst dodging most one hit kos. Again its not as team oriented as the support set which is bulkier, but it helps break stall a little bit. The choice between Will-o and Taunt is important based on your team; do you want Jellicent to stop stall or cripple opposing offensive threats for your teams ease?

 

[DarkNostalgia]

I guess another thing that really hurts Jellicent is the power creep, and also the abundance of Knock Off and Pursuit, especially in a metagame dominated by Mega Metagross (sometimes runs Pursuit), Keldeo and Landorus (both are paired with Pursuit users a lot of the time). Jellicent's niche is to beat Keldeo and spinblock, but its job is made so much harder, considering you have powerful attackers in the tier such as Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie and Landorus, which can 2HKO it on the switch, factoring in Stealth Rock.

Here's a decent set for Jelli:

Jellicent (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
- Recover
- Taunt / Hex

Nothing really spectacular, but with this set, Jellicent manages to avoid the 2HKO from Mega Metagross's Zen Headbutt AND Grass Knot at the same time, not factoring in Stealth Rock damage, the 2HKO from Mega Aerodactyl's Stone Edge after Stealth Rock, the 2HKO from Mega Diancie's Diamond Storm AND Moonblast without Stealth Rock, the 2HKO from Modest Mega Altaria's Hyper Voice, the 2HKO from Focus Sash Alakazam's Shadow Ball, and has a 85% chance of avoiding the 3HKO from Choice Scarf Keldeo's Hidden Power Electric.
However, Jellicent is really reliant on hazards being removed, as otherwise, it loses to Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie, Alakazam, not to mention it already loses to Landorus and Defensive Dragon Dance Mega Altaria.
Jellicent does provide useful utility, however. Scald has a nifty chance to burn, which can wear down physical attackers such as Azumarill and Mega Metagross. Will-O-Wisp provides a definite chance to burn, while Toxic can wear down walls such as Slowbro and Chansey easier. Recover let's Jellicent replenish health, so it can shrug off hits easier. Lastly, Taunt shuts down setup sweepers and stall-oriented Pokemon alike, such as Reuniclus and Clefable. Hex could be used to capitalize on the status Jellicent spreads too.

 

[Albacore]

This week's Pokemon is Cloyster!

Back in gen 5, Cloyster got acess to a fantastic move in Shell Smash, which turned it from a completely unviable Pokemon to an actually pretty decent sweeper. However, it still had big problems, such as cripling SR weakness, nonexistant special bulk, and extreme vulnerability to popular Water types ,specifically Keldeo. These flaws got worse as the power creep of gen 6 arrived, and the introduction oif new megas, many of which made for far better sweepers than Cloyster. However, Closyer still has a few things going for it, mainly the great combination of Shell Smash, Skill Link, and Icicle Spear, and STAB priority in Ice Shard. But beyond that, there isn't too much it's good at. Is that enough for it to be usable in OU?

 

[jordanthejq12]

Cloyster @ Focus Sash
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Ice Shard
- Rock Blast/Explosion

This is about all that can be done. Cloyster is blisteringly fast after a Smash, allowing it to outpace opposing priority with Ice Shard--but it needs Ice Shard to stand a chance, and even then it helps primarily against Sucker Punchers, as any other priority will still pick it off. It should also be noted that Rock Blast is the only decent coverage move it has that benefits from Skill Link, and the Water/Rock combination leaves you completely walled by Empoleon, Lucario, Magnezone/ton, Jirachi, Bisharp, and of course Keldeo--just to name a few. It can't even afford to run any Water STAB (though it does have a neat move in Razor Shell) because that requires you to either give up Rock STAB and be walled by even more, or give up Ice Shard and die to any priority ever.

The main thing going for Cloyster is that it makes a better SS attacker than Gorebyss, who will be passing those boosts instead due to its overall worse bulk (better specially but much worse physically) and lower speed. It's arguably a viable one, and under the right conditions it can certainly pull its own weight, but from a practical perspective, how much are you giving up to make it work?

 

[QueenOfHax]

You're seriously underestimating Cloyster. In fact it is the most underrated pokemon in the metagame.
It can easily fit into most HO teams, as Ice STAB is superb in this metagame (just take a look at the usage stats and see how many things are weak to ice) and it can threaten the annoying bulky ground types that give HO teams trouble, especially the omnipresent Lando-T and Garchomp.
Even after a Shell Smash it has enough to bulk to take just about any priority move thrown at it, it doesn't need water coverage because +2 STAB Icicle Spear hits insanely hard and for the love of god don't use Focus Sash on it - use Life Orb because it lets Cloyster net a ton of notable OHKOs and 2HKO. And of course Cloyster should never be used as a lead, but as a lategame sweeper because it was designed as such.
It doesn't really need that much support to work either - just Rapid Spin/Defog and a partner that can take care of the things Cloyster doesn't like (Celebi can deal with Rotom-W and Keldeo while grabbing momentum for Cloyster with Baton Pass or U-Turn). Overall a solid pokemon and still the best Shell Smasher in the game, which automatically gives it a strong niche and should never be overlooked.

 

[Analytic]

Cloyster @ White Herb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Hydro Pump
- Rock Blast

Cloyster is one of those pokemon that teams aren't often prepared for. It has terrible special defense, making it unable to come in on any specially offensive pokemon and setting up. It has great defense however, making it easy for it to live priority hits from pokemon like Talonflame and Bisharp which means that it becomes really tough to revenge kill after it's set up a Shell Smash. The White Herb is preferred over Focus Sash because I prefer that its defenses don't go any lower than it is so that it isn't revenge killed easily.

 

[jordanthejq12]

Priority tho...eh, there is that base 180 physical defense, so it's not like a Mach Punch is gonna kill you or anything.

 

[Waluigi The Anime]

Cloyster @ Focus Sash
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Icicle Spear
- Rapid Spin
- Explosion/Toxic Spikes/Rock Blast

Lead Cloyster is actually a decent set and works well on Hyper Offensive Teams. The best part of this set is that not only is it able to set up spikes as well as prevent opposing leads from doing so, but it can also break said opposing leads' sashes with Icicle Spear. In the last spot, I personally prefer Explosion as it allows you to avoid the opponent from removing spikes, but toxic spikes can be an alternative as well as Rock Blast. Many people assume that Cloyster only uses the smash set, which can cause some opponents to predict a Shell Smash. Though it's a minuscule detail, the element of surprise may occasionally come in handy.

 

[At_Teh_Cross]

Cloyster @ Focus Sash
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Speed / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
-Shell Smash
-Icicle Spear
-Rock Blast
-Ice Shard

This is the set I like to run and use occasionally; it is pretty standard. I've had good success with it as a sweeper in the late game once it's threats are either weakened or removed. If it gets set-up it can take out almost anything that doesn't resist it or isn't too physically bulky. I've definitely had trouble with SR or Spikes since they break the sash; then a special attack usually takes it down. But with good support and predictions, I've had this Cloyster set turn games around for me. So I think Cloyster can certainly have some success in OU, but it does need some help from teammates. Hazard removers to save Cloyster's Sash and Pokemon that can take out or weaken the Pokemon that resist Cloyster's attacks are pretty crucial to it's success I've found.

 

[Karxrida]

Why the fuck is everybody running Focus Sash? If you can't get rid of rocks/spikes it's totally worthless. Just run King's Rock for that 41%ish flinch chance with Icicle Spear, Life Orb for the DAMAGE, or hell even White Herb is better.

 

[jordanthejq12]

Guaranteed Smash, though of course that's worthless in the face of hazards. It does allow you to fire off a +2 Ice Shard as a parting shot of sorts (barring ExtremeSpeed), should you get knocked down to the Sash. I like the idea of King's Rock, especially if you're running Rock Blast, since half your movepool has a 40% flinch, allowing you to simply muscle your way past potential threats.

 

[At_Teh_Cross]

King's Rock could work too. The only thing is Cloyster needs that speed boost from Shell Smash to be able to out-speed in order to flinch. Set-up without Focus Sash becomes more difficult because any powerful special attacker will probably OHKO Cloyster because it can set-up Shell Smash. But if you set-up, King's Rock would make Cloyster much more dangerous.

 

[Slowking88]

King's Rock could work too. The only thing is Cloyster needs that speed boost from Shell Smash to be able to out-speed in order to flinch. Set-up without Focus Sash becomes more difficult because any powerful special attacker will probably OHKO Cloyster because it can set-up Shell Smash. But if you set-up, King's Rock would make Cloyster much more dangerous.

You probably shouldn't set up on a special attacker to begin with, because even with a focus sash, you will still be down to 1 hp, meaning it will die to any priority. If you want to set up with Cloyster, do so again something it forces out or a weaker physically offensive poke.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

Cloyster's best set is this:

Cloyster @ Life Orb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Sp Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Hydro Pump

The Bolded stuff I changed from other people's posts as cloyster really needs the power life orb provides and hydro pump hits physical walls harder and does the most to steels. I saw Analytic poster this set but I just added life orb as it really needs all the power it can get.

Cloyster is really underrated as QueenOfHax stated and ice stab is is super good has plenty of stuff is weak to it. Even at -1 defense most priority isn't enough as the only one that even comes close to or can ohko is technician breloom which needs rocks or life orb to actually kill. It also preys on the plethora of bulky grounds as set up bait. Also an important thing to know is +2 naive cloyster is outsped by scarfers with 110 speed as they hit 525 speed and cloyster at +2 speed hits 524

 

[Taliheim]

Have any of you that posted sets looked at the viability ranking thread recently? Pretty much all of the sets you guys have posted have been shot down. Let me give this a try.

Cloystyer @ Life Orb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Razor Shell

A few notable things about this set that none of the others show:
1.) Jolly Nature. This allows it to outspeed and KO weakened Scarf Keldeo, which is pretty common on HO teams.
2.) Razor Shell. It functions like Hydro Pump, except better in almost every way. The slight increase in power that Hydro Pump grants doesn't help pick up any KOs that Razor Shell doesn't, while Razor Shell has much higher accuracy and an actually useful secondary effect to help break through physical walls.

Cloyster doesn't need priority in Ice Shard since the only things it wouldn't be outspeeding after a Shell Smash are Pokemon that need to set up, outside of the rare Scarfgar and Scarf Latios, which isn't enough to warrant a slot over any other move.

 

[NinetyNineNo]

Does Cloyster learn Freeze-Dry? Considering the boost from Shell Smash, it seems like it'd be a good way to muscle past the Water that resist its STABs.

 

[jordanthejq12]

Sadly, it doesn't. I imagine that would be a staple on Cloyster sets if it were.

Concerning Razor Shell: it's a pretty neat move that really can help Cloyster get past many of the things that would otherwise wall it, while being more accurate than Hydro alongside a pretty neat secondary and more PP. It really should get more usage, although I think a lot of people see Cloyster as needing the extra power or priority.

 

[Kurona]

Why are Razor Shell and Hydro Pump even being compared beyond your STAB...? One's special, one's physical. You clearly choose one depending on the team; neither is directly superior to the other.