time travelling fun

If the world was made so that time travel is possible, there's no force that's gonna stop you from fucking with the time stream if you go back in time
There does not necessarily need to be any physical force, rather, if free will is (as I believe) an illusion, then it can simply be that you won't. (EDIT: I have reworded the previous sentence in response to vonFiedler's below post). In the self-consistency idea, a Universe with a paradox simply cannot exist, and so all events will not create paradoxes.

In many-worlds, you can do whatever. I don't like many-worlds, but I accept it's scientifically quite reasonable, albeit being "cheap on assumptions but expensive on Universes".

(perhaps in a second dimension of time - picture a horizontal timeline moving upwards).
In fact, if such a dimension exists, that itself opens up the possibility of time travel. One of the compacted dimensions in string theory could be timelike.
An idea I've used for sci-fi is based on M-Theory, and proposes a different time dimension for the bulk (in which universes themselves move and interact) as for the branes (within the Universe itself). In that situation, the Universe is a 3+1D spacetime object, that itself changes as the second time dimension passes. From within the Universe that change is never perceived, but the effect is like having parallel Universes.
Time travel that would change the past is possible by travelling through the bulk, leaving the Universe at one spacetime location and re-entering as another - in doing that, the bulk's time dimension inevitably advances meaning you actually return to a different version of the Universe. (Time travel WITHOUT changing the past remains also possible by wormholes and other in-Universe methods).

If that is the case, then time travel is pointless. It might as well be travelling in space in a universe that uncannily ressemble ours appart from being in a different point in history.
Not necessarily. If you travel back in time, you are still, no matter what, travelling into your own history. If you then travel forward again you don't reach your own present, but millions of people throughout history have undertaken one-way journeys of discovery and adventure.
 
I would travel into the future only to see what it will be like (or what it could be like, if my seeing it somehow changes things). I am far more interested in the future, which I have at least some control over, than in the past, which I do not. If I can use my knowledge for personal gain, all the better. But my main goal would merely be to appease my curiosity about future technology and culture and the actual effects of climate change, as well as what I have in store in my own life.
About the feasibility of time travel I know little of and trust that Brain and Cantab will continue to further educate Smogon on their beliefs regarding the subject.
 

vonFiedler

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No, but there's simply the fact that you won't, since free will is an illusion.
Proof please. Sources? Cold hard facts? Stop treating your philosophy of time travel like it's the truth. The only science we can trust is science that's been proven to work, everything else is a theory (and some regarding time travel are rather outlandish). If you want to prove your theories, I suggest you start working on it right away because time travel in the next hundred years would be pretty impressive. Until then, stop acting like you know how time works.

I haven't even provided my theories, I'd just like to see more people apply engineer logic to this problem.
 
I have reworded my sentence in my previous post.

Free will has IIRC been discussed at length in a thread previously, and the concept doesn't to me seem to stand up to scrutiny. But ruling out free will is not in fact sufficient to eliminate paradoxes; you can dream up purely mechanical ones, like a missile travelling back in time and blowing its past self up.

Also note I did state the many-worlds idea is "scientifically quite reasonable".
 
Let's all go to Brain's future dystopia!
Oh, you'd probably enjoy it. There's no point in oppressing the masses once they're both inoffensive and useless. They can just do whatever they want.

If that is the case, then time travel is pointless. It might as well be travelling in space in a universe that uncannily ressemble ours appart from being in a different point in history.
It's hardly pointless. Getting to see real dinosaurs is cool regardless of whether the past splits off at that point or not. You could also experiment with what kind of future the changes you make produce, get to see what the world would have looked like if Hitler had been eliminated, and so forth. You could also try to maximize your personal wealth and comfort moving objects and concepts to various universes, or through engineering a future utopia with carefully planned changes. There are plenty of reasons to travel through time in this model, whether it be for exploration or personal gain.

The whole point of time travel is to change the age of the entire Universe, except for yourself.

Time is relative, it may move forward for you, but it can, at the same time, go backward for all other particles and waves in the Universe.
All I'm saying is that if that's the case, the whole system comprised of you going forwards and the rest of the universe going backwards is moving forwards in some time referential. Basically, a timeline is the result of flattening a causality graph, which gives you an ordered sequence that you can walk through forwards. If you have A and B moving forwards in time, and then A moving forwards and B backwards, the (A, B) system is moving from a (forwards, forwards) state to a (forwards, backwards) state. This traces a causality arc from (F, F) to (F, B), which, when flattened, yields that at "time 1" A and B are both moving forwards and at "time 2" are moving in opposite directions. Hence, this scenario requires a second dimension of time to hold state changes in the combined (A, B) system. Did that make sense?

In fact, if such a dimension exists, that itself opens up the possibility of time travel. One of the compacted dimensions in string theory could be timelike.
An idea I've used for sci-fi is based on M-Theory, and proposes a different time dimension for the bulk (in which universes themselves move and interact) as for the branes (within the Universe itself). In that situation, the Universe is a 3+1D spacetime object, that itself changes as the second time dimension passes. From within the Universe that change is never perceived, but the effect is like having parallel Universes.
Time travel that would change the past is possible by travelling through the bulk, leaving the Universe at one spacetime location and re-entering as another - in doing that, the bulk's time dimension inevitably advances meaning you actually return to a different version of the Universe. (Time travel WITHOUT changing the past remains also possible by wormholes and other in-Universe methods).
Yeah, that would work. In any case, though, I am wary of most physical theories beyond their directly observable consequences.

Proof please. Sources? Cold hard facts? Stop treating your philosophy of time travel like it's the truth. The only science we can trust is science that's been proven to work, everything else is a theory (and some regarding time travel are rather outlandish). If you want to prove your theories, I suggest you start working on it right away because time travel in the next hundred years would be pretty impressive. Until then, stop acting like you know how time works.

I haven't even provided my theories, I'd just like to see more people apply engineer logic to this problem.
It's quite clear that appearance of time travel can be achieved. The issue is more about how you define "true" time travel. Does it have to operate in the same "timeline"? Is it acceptable to simply overwrite the present with the past? Basically, one needs to figure out whether there exists a time travel procedure that is both coherent and legitimately does what is intended.
 
It might seem a bit simple to some but there's only 2 things I'd do:

1. Go forward in time and either send the lottery numbers back or take advantage of the stock markets and make a load of money, enough to last me for this life and to pass down to my children.

2. Go forward in time 2 seconds, meet my "+2" self and we can both go to my girlfriend's house for a threesome without guilt.

Easily pleased.
 

vonFiedler

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I have reworded my sentence in my previous post.

Free will has IIRC been discussed at length in a thread previously, and the concept doesn't to me seem to stand up to scrutiny. But ruling out free will is not in fact sufficient to eliminate paradoxes; you can dream up purely mechanical ones, like a missile travelling back in time and blowing its past self up.

Also note I did state the many-worlds idea is "scientifically quite reasonable".
"Yo we discussed it in a thread on a competitive Pokemon forum so stfu"

That's what I took from your post. And actually, it's the second time someone on this forum has used that logic.

"Free will doesn't exist". Either you're a strict Christian (and I know otherwise) or that's some real melodramatic fatalism.

EDIT:
And you know, it really doesn't matter that it's a Pokemon forum. It could be the Philosophy forum and I still wouldn't care that they came to a consensus if they weren't using just a bit of practical logic. It could be the Mensa forum and I wouldn't care, because the idea is that silly. Silly theories have been proven to be true in the past, but you have to prove them, you can't just come to a consensus.
 
I haven't failed, I haven't done it yet. I'd have to know that George was the first president of the US for it to even be a relevant example. "I'm gonna stab that nobody that was once mysteriously stabbed" just seems pointless. Once I stab George Washington, you won't remember this conversation but I will. I might not even have been born anymore, but I'll still physically exist and I'll still remember a time when George Washington was the first president. Maybe it's presumptuous to assume that the laws of physics work with time travel, but I don't see anyone performing any experiments on the matter so throwing the laws to the wind is just bad science fiction.
You're still missing the point; I'll try and show why changing the past is impossible.

CASE 1: There is only one dimension of time in the universe, and only one universe.

PART A) Let's ignore time travel for the moment. Let's say there are two buttons on a desk in front of you, a red one and a blue one. You press the red one.

After you have pressed the red one, there is nothing that you can do to make it so you pressed the blue one instead of the red one, because those events have already happened. This is what the past is.

PART B) If you then get in a time machine, and attempt to travel back in time ten minutes to tell yourself to press the blue button instead. Whatever your intention, something happened to prevent you from doing so, otherwise you would have met your future self in Part A before you pressed the button, and been told to press the Blue button.

Ultimately, if time travel is possible under the Case 1 criteria, anything they do to 'change' the past has already happened right now. No time traveller has been recorded as killing Hitler before the Holocaust as it stands now, which means if they travelled back in time from the future intending to do so, they failed.

CASE 2: You have infinitely many universes that intersect from every conceivable point of possible change.

Part A) As above.

Part B) You go back in time, meet your past self, and tell yourself to press the blue button instead. But what's really happened here? You have simply jumped into a parallel universe, and this parallel universe is bound by the same rules as Case 1. Any change you make is just following a different universe line, so the past of any particular universe line is unchanged.

EDIT: A corollary of this is that all events are predetermined, and "free-will" is simply us making the decisions we were predetermined to make. The feeling of choice is simply generated by the fact that we don't know what our own decision is going to be before we make it.


@Brain: We didn't do anything robust with it, but we messed around with what the electron would see if the CPT inversion operation were performed on it. In it's own frame of reference, it's charge, parity and time would be negative, forward and forward; but the rest of the universe relative to it would appear to be CPT inverted.

The upshot seems to be that the notion of forward and backward in any given direction in space and time aren't really that meaningful. Provided the CPT conservation holds, it is not any different to talk about a (positive, forward, forward) and a (negative, backward, backward).

This all said, it's moot the moment they find a CPT violation in nature. Which I would not be particularly surprised about if they do.
 

vonFiedler

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I understand your point entirely. I think you're missing mine. If I go back and tell myself to push the blue button, there are aren't two universes, there are two vonFiedlers. One who won't get into the time machine due to lack of a need to (though let's be honest, he'd probably go back in time to get rich anyway) and one who already went back in time. This leads to an abundance of vonFiedlers and the dilemma of deciding which vonFiedler has authority over all others, and since time travel fiction is hard enough to get right as is lazy writers will avoid scenarios like this. And yes, I am always going to bring it back to science fiction because that's all you're talking about. You even mentioned using your theory in sci-fi.

My theory, and I chose to be a game designer instead of a physicist so I've lost all credibility already, but from my observations time as most people define it doesn't exist. The closest approximation would be a continuity of memory, so even if in time I've stopped myself from pressing the red button at this moment I don't have that memory yet. "Time" is a compressed jumble of the tiniest possible moments, and we experience those moments endlessly and repeatedly and maybe not even in chronological order. You'd probably say this supports your theory about free will, but if I've already made all the choices in my life then I still made those choices. Looking at it the same way and seeing a lack of free will goes beyond pessimism and just seems like an excuse. My theory could be totally wrong and has no practical application, cept maybe in the story for a video game.
 
There would be two vonFiedlers, I agree (for a while, until the first one leaves). But the vonFiedler who has yet to go back in time would meet the future self before leaving in the first place. So the future vonFiedler could not change the events they experienced before travelling in time.

If you had the ability to time travel, you could multiply yourself indefinitely for a short period, as long as you remembered to go back in time and back yourself up afterwards. I always imagined Celebi did this.

One funny point that I have read is that since the future hasn't happened yet, it doesn't exist, and since the past is no longer here except as a memory, it doesn't exist anymore either. The only time that exists is the exact present. But the duration of the present is 0, so consequently no time exists.
 
@Brain: We didn't do anything robust with it, but we messed around with what the electron would see if the CPT inversion operation were performed on it. In it's own frame of reference, it's charge, parity and time would be negative, forward and forward; but the rest of the universe relative to it would appear to be CPT inverted.

The upshot seems to be that the notion of forward and backward in any given direction in space and time aren't really that meaningful. Provided the CPT conservation holds, it is not any different to talk about a (positive, forward, forward) and a (negative, backward, backward).
Frankly, direction isn't truly meaningful even if the CPT does not hold, as long as there's an inverse function to the laws of the universe. That is, you could hold that the universe is in fact running backwards using these inverse laws, rather than forwards with the usual laws. In this scenario, we would be hopelessly doomed to enact our "past" (which is in fact a premonition). There isn't really any way to know for sure in what direction time "moves", except that it's more natural (simpler) to assume it runs towards higher entropy.

Even if there is no inverse function to the laws of the universe, there may be an inverse relation (a 1-to-several mapping, which can lead to a backwards-bound tree of universes, or a non-deterministic path). There again, there is no way to know whether our memories are memories or premonitions, for the laws we use to understand the universe may be the inverse laws of what the universe actually uses to compute present from future and past from present.

Now here's an illustration of how reversing time flow could actually be productive, because I think it's cool: imagine that some particle A can decay into either particles B and C, or into particles D and E, seemingly at random. This would seem like the universe is not deterministic. Now imagine that no other physical phenomenon ever involves creating B+C or D+E. The inverse function of the laws of physics would then map the collision of B and C, or of D and E, to particle A, always. No uncertainty is at all involved. So you would have a case where the laws of physics are non-deterministic when running towards the future, but fully deterministic when running towards the past. Thus one could consider the idea that the universe really does actually run backwards, and that all "randomness" is just information loss. Such a model would be predictively worthless, yet it very well might be correct!

All this to say that the direction in which time "truly" flows is impossible to determine and is more a matter of usefulness or taste than science.

One funny point that I have read is that since the future hasn't happened yet, it doesn't exist, and since the past is no longer here except as a memory, it doesn't exist anymore either. The only time that exists is the exact present. But the duration of the present is 0, so consequently no time exists.
If the past exists, that pretty much means that the universe backs itself up as it goes, leaving a trail. Alas, if we were to go in these backups, there's no way to know what kind of rules apply to them, so it's unclear what would happen - at worst, these backups are in cold storage and time travel effectively jams you in a precise time in the past, like flies in amber.

Also, out of curiosity, how do you classify the various time travel implementations I posted earlier?

=====

About free will: the issue with free will is that I have never seen a definition of it that wasn't either inadequate (too broad) or outright unintelligible (self-inconsistent) (except for the one I will present below). One massive stumbling block is the concept of "self": if you want to determine whether "you" have free will, you need to know what kind of thing you are. And once you've determined what kind of thing you are, you need to explain what it means for that thing to choose to do something.

Here's the closest I think one can get to a coherent definition of free will (well, it's the best I could find):

Let B be an actual brain in the real world and let P be the person represented by B.

1) P is defined as the collection of all possible specific entities E such that B, upon inspecting its own behavior in a new situation and the behavior of E in the exact same situation, could not determine which of the two it is.

2) "P can do Y" is defined as "there exists E in P such that E does Y" (assuming E is reified and put in situation).

3) "P has free will" is defined as "there is a sizable number of non-trivial actions Y such that P can do Y and P can do not-Y"

The first definition seems reasonable, because it mirrors the fact that any of us can imagine ourselves doing many things. This suggests that the "self" assimilates more than what it is in reality, and is preserved under several changes. That is, there's probably an infinity of different brains that you would readily associate to yourself, not just the one you actually have - the "self" is like a blurry cloud of different people that are so similar to us that we can't tell them apart from us, and believe that we can do whatever any of these people would actually do. Regardless of whether one accepts this definition of free will or not, I think that at the very least this is essentially why we think we have it - we simply think that we are all these people at once.

Here's another way to look at it: our consciousness and introspection capabilities are clearly insufficient to precisely determine our brain state. The best we can do when introspecting ourselves is to place constraints on what we are, and these constraints lead us to modelize ourselves as the set of all brains that fit them. Therefore, if we consider the action of pressing a button, it is likely that neither pressing it nor not pressing it runs against any constraints. In fact, the human brain is so complex that it will usually fail to see any constraints on its behavior that are not glaringly obvious. Therefore, our brain will consider that it can do either: it cannot tell apart any brain which fits the constraints, so as long as one of them would press the button and another wouldn't, the conclusion is that both are possible. In a sense, this is foolish, because only one of these outcomes will actually happen. But here's the thing: when we say "self", what we mean is precisely this internal representation of ourselves that our consciousness built. And when we say "can"... well, you get the picture. Most free will arguments might very well be strawmen, the saddest thing being that both proponents and opponents are guilty of it.

I'm sorry about the tangent, I didn't intend to write that much :(
 
I agree with Brain in that that is the closest I've ever seen to a coherent explanation of free will.

Thanks for explaining it.
 

vonFiedler

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Therefore, our brain will consider that it can do either: it cannot tell apart any brain which fits the constraints, so as long as one of them would press the button and another wouldn't, the conclusion is that both are possible. In a sense, this is foolish, because only one of these outcomes will actually happen.
But we choooooooooose which outcome happens. Free will, voluntary choice or decision. They don't call it free outcome, past present or future you pushed that button because you willed it. With a lack of free will, I can push neither button. Without free will, you don't exist.
 
But we choooooooooose which outcome happens. Free will, voluntary choice or decision. They don't call it free outcome, past present or future you pushed that button because you willed it. With a lack of free will, I can push neither button.
I've defined "we". I've defined "choose". You have not. So I'm not sure I even understand what you mean. If we suppose a deterministic universe, then whatever action your actual body will perform will necessarily happen. In other words, your actual brain will necessarily "will" to perform this action. In what sense, then, is your will "free"? I've shown a concrete interpretation under which people could be said to have free will, in so long that you accept that the "self" is abstract rather than real. If it's any different, I have not the slightest clue what your interpretation is (if experience is any indication, 99.99% of people have an internally inconsistent conception of free will - and when they realize it, they usually conclude that free will does not exist).

Without free will, you don't exist.
...what? I don't see how you could possibly justify such a thing, no matter how you define free will.
 

vonFiedler

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...what? I don't see how you could possibly justify such a thing, no matter how you define free will.
I think, therefore I am.

I have to define "we" and "choose" to define free will? We? That's a word you don't even associate with a grade level. My mom taught the definition of we and she's not exactly a philosopher. We is the plural form of I. Choose is to pick from preference. I have preferences, therefore I make choices. I make choices by my own preference, thereby exercising my free will. If I was given the choice between game design and physics an infinite number of times and I always choose game design, I still choose game design. If 99.99% of the people in the world can't grasp the concept of free will, I feel bad for them son. I got 99 problems but fatalism ain't one.

EDIT:
Keep in mind that most people have an internally inconsistent conception of irony too.
 
"Yo we discussed it in a thread on a competitive Pokemon forum so stfu"

That's what I took from your post. And actually, it's the second time someone on this forum has used that logic.
You've took the wrong implication. My meaning is that since the topic as already been discussed, debating it again is likely to lead to a lot of people rehashing the same arguments. And also to make the existence of such a thread known, so that those who did not follow it originally, or want to review it, can if they wish look for it knowing they're not looking for something non-existent.

It's too late to drop the can opener and step away from the can of worms now though...

Now here's an illustration of how reversing time flow could actually be productive, because I think it's cool: imagine that some particle A can decay into either particles B and C, or into particles D and E, seemingly at random. This would seem like the universe is not deterministic. Now imagine that no other physical phenomenon ever involves creating B+C or D+E. The inverse function of the laws of physics would then map the collision of B and C, or of D and E, to particle A, always. No uncertainty is at all involved. So you would have a case where the laws of physics are non-deterministic when running towards the future, but fully deterministic when running towards the past. Thus one could consider the idea that the universe really does actually run backwards, and that all "randomness" is just information loss. Such a model would be predictively worthless, yet it very well might be correct!
If that were to work, that's brilliant.

The paper linked to by MrIndigo brings up an interesting possibility - that the use of thought experiements involving time travel will be key to unifying general relativity and quantum mechanics, in the same fashion that Einstein used thought experiemnts involving high-speed travel.

I think, therefore I am.
Does not mean that if you don't think, you aren't. This is basic logic.
 

vonFiedler

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Does not mean that if you don't think, you aren't. This is basic logic.
You want some basic logic? I think, therefore I am. If I do not have the capacity to think, I do not know that I exist. I may still exist, but I cannot prove it. My will proves my existence, with a lack of will I wouldn't even be able to theorize existence in order to prove it. There is a point to being pithy in these sort of arguments. It means that people might actually bother to read what I post. Believe it or not, I think long and hard about what people are trying to say in the context of what they've been arguing (me having used similar theory/proof arguments in this very thread), but you know what, I think using the first witticism that pops into your head just suits you. As long as you think your adversary is stupid, you can turn anything they say into one of a few logical fallacies. No wonder we have to define "we" before we get anywhere. Wouldn't want to be misunderstood.
 
You want some basic logic? I think, therefore I am. If I do not have the capacity to think, I do not know that I exist. I may still exist, but I cannot prove it.
I think.
Therefore I am?

Problem: It is impossible to logically deduce anything from just one statement. Here is an attempt to correct the problem:

If something thinks, then it is.
I think.
Therefore I am.

You then go on to say that "I don't think, therefore I am not." is equally valid. Taking the first basic premise from the previous argument, this new one would look like this:

If something thinks, then it is.
I don't think.
Therefore, I am not.

Denying the antecedent, however, is fallacy. "If something thinks, then it is." =/= "If something doesn't think, then it is not." I can name any inanimate object as an example. Thinking requires a brain or something similar (ie, if something doesn't have a brain or something similar, it cannot think). Taps do not have brains or anything similar. Therefore, taps do not think. By your logic, this would mean taps do not exist. However, the existence of taps can be proven with one instance of a tap and one reliable witness to the tap. Maybe the taps can't prove their own existence, but someone else can prove it for them.

As for the whole time travel thing, one could argue that we are constantly travelling through time at a rate of 1 second per second (or whatever name you want to give that rate). Apart from that, any discussions about what one would do if one could travel in time at a different rate would only be hypothetical. It doesn't mean that such discussions are worthless though, because it can be quite fun to think of such possibilities and see what possibilities others come up with.
 

vonFiedler

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But you don't have one statement from me. If you've been a part of this time travel then free will discussion, then you should know at least vaguely what I'm trying to say when I drop a whopper like "without free will you don't exist". Even if you only look at the fairly small post in which I said it, you could easily extrapolate that since without free will I cannot do, then without free will existence as we give it meaning would be meaningless. And I wouldn't too surprised if some of the people here actually think that way.

Objection, this is the third time, third fucking time you've pulled this bullshit. I get it. You can take something I say and turn it backwards and I look like a dumbass, so long as you remove all context in which I said it.

Read;

You want some basic logic? I think, therefore I am. If I do not have the capacity to think, I do not know that I exist. I may still exist, but I cannot prove it. My will proves my existence, with a lack of will I wouldn't even be able to theorize existence in order to prove it.
See there's this two step process. Well, even that's dumbing it down, but first you form a hypothesis. Second, you prove it. Since I think, I can form a hypothesis stating that I exist. Then, I can prove it to the best of my abilities. I don't think anyone here is doubting existence, though from all I've seen lately maybe that's wildly wrong. Now, a tap can't prove that it exists. We can, but the tap doesn't know that. It can't even form a hypothesis. From the tap's point of view, the scientific conclusion would be that it may or may not exist. And it can't even make a scientific conclusion anyway. If I have no will, I am that tap. If no one has will, who is the reliable witness? Was that detailed enough?

Objection, stop treating me like an idiot. When you come in at the end of a conversation and copy paste something from your link (and yeah, I know about a logical fallacy or two), what are you really adding to the debate? Read it from start to finish, really get to know people's stances, then come up with your own arguments. You get so caught up in logical fallacies it's almost as if you're afraid to make your own.

EDIT:
Oh, and personal attack is a logical fallacy too. Just saving you the trouble of bringing it up.
 
It's hardly pointless. Getting to see real dinosaurs is cool regardless of whether the past splits off at that point or not. You could also experiment with what kind of future the changes you make produce, get to see what the world would have looked like if Hitler had been eliminated, and so forth. You could also try to maximize your personal wealth and comfort moving objects and concepts to various universes, or through engineering a future utopia with carefully planned changes. There are plenty of reasons to travel through time in this model, whether it be for exploration or personal gain.

It's quite clear that appearance of time travel can be achieved. The issue is more about how you define "true" time travel. Does it have to operate in the same "timeline"? Is it acceptable to simply overwrite the present with the past? Basically, one needs to figure out whether there exists a time travel procedure that is both coherent and legitimately does what is intended.
What I meant is that, if you travel to a different timeline, it's useless to consider it a "Time" travel, because the same result can be achieved throught "Space" travel : you travel throught space until you arrive to a world that looks exactly like ours, only not at the same point in time. Since Space travel is possible, but Time travel is only hypothetical, you have to consider such a travel to be Space travel in order to assume the least.

I'd say "true" time travel must be a travel to a place unreachable by Space travel. Since traveling to a different timeline can be achieved by Space travel, then only travelling to your own timeline can be considered "true" time travel.

But we choooooooooose which outcome happens. Free will, voluntary choice or decision. They don't call it free outcome, past present or future you pushed that button because you willed it. With a lack of free will, I can push neither button. Without free will, you don't exist.
Yes, you can have non-free will. You forgot that possibility and that was precisely the possibility that cantab was speaking about. You chose which outcome happen, but your choice is predictable.

I think, therefore I am.

I have to define "we" and "choose" to define free will? We? That's a word you don't even associate with a grade level. My mom taught the definition of we and she's not exactly a philosopher. We is the plural form of I. Choose is to pick from preference. I have preferences, therefore I make choices. I make choices by my own preference, thereby exercising my free will. If I was given the choice between game design and physics an infinite number of times and I always choose game design, I still choose game design. If 99.99% of the people in the world can't grasp the concept of free will, I feel bad for them son. I got 99 problems but fatalism ain't one.

EDIT:
Keep in mind that most people have an internally inconsistent conception of irony too.
1- You forgot to define I. My definition of I is : the ensemble of my Qualia.
2- You don't pick your preference from a pool of preference. You don't chose your preferences. Your preference has been set for you by a combination of the wiring of your brain, the hormones in your body and and your upbringing. Since none of those is a quale, not of those is part of you. Therefore, you have no say in your preference and are therefore not free, i.e. your actions are not guided by a primary cause.
 
I'd say "true" time travel must be a travel to a place unreachable by Space travel. Since traveling to a different timeline can be achieved by Space travel, then only travelling to your own timeline can be considered "true" time travel.
I think an attempt to distinguish between space and time travel is going to be futile. Time travel is simply taking a path through spacetime that reaches a point within your own past light-cone - and that therefore you could continue to back where (and when) you started. Most backwards time travel scenarios involve 1) warp spacetime suitably, then 2) travel through the warped spacetime.

Also, remembering one idea for time travel that actually. I'm a bit surprised nobody seems to have said this yet - I'd meet my past/future self. That would be cool. Nobody is closer to you than you.

In fact it's considering such an experience that really causes problems for free will. When you meet, your younger self will observe and remember what your older self does. When you are then your older self in that meeting, your actions are clearly fixed in advance (assuming self-consistency here; many worlds gets out of the issue). Now the idea that my actions would be thus fixed if I time travel, but otherwise wouldn't be, seems implausible - why should whether or not I have free will depend on the geometry of spacetime I live in?
 

vonFiedler

I Like Chopin
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1- You forgot to define I. My definition of I is : the ensemble of my Qualia.
2- You don't pick your preference from a pool of preference. You don't chose your preferences. Your preference has been set for you by a combination of the wiring of your brain, the hormones in your body and and your upbringing. Since none of those is a quale, not of those is part of you. Therefore, you have no say in your preference and are therefore not free, i.e. your actions are not guided by a primary cause.
I have no will because my brain is my will and my brain gives him me thoughts but they aren't my thoughts they are my brains thoughts because brain has no will? No... no... that's just too fucking stupid for me to go along with. The wiring of your brain? It's MY brain. If my brain wills something, that's ME willing it. Fuckall.

Jack Jack, if tomorrow you meet a beautiful girl and she's interested in you and you don't have the guts to ask her out, you don't have to feel bad about it. You don't have free will. If you've made mistakes in your life, don't learn from them. You didn't make those mistakes. Hormones did. Go rape someone. Tell the judge you didn't have free will. And when you die in bed lonely and without any accomplishments in life, it won't feel so bad, because you didn't have free will anyway. You guys have taken something as elementary as free will and turned into an excuse. An excuse so outrageously pathetic it's like you want me to be a cynic again. But then I remember that you guys are cynics, so I swallow my frustration and remember exactly why I'm on the side of the people with internally inconsistent concepts. I cherish learning from my mistakes and I love who I am, and the things I am predestined to do, and being predictable is not the same thing as having no will. You might as well say that you don't have a personality. And if wasn'y such a semantics whore, I might agree.
 
I have no will because my brain is my will and my brain gives him me thoughts but they aren't my thoughts they are my brains thoughts because brain has no will? No... no... that's just too fucking stupid for me to go along with. The wiring of your brain? It's MY brain. If my brain wills something, that's ME willing it. Fuckall.

Do not confuse your brain and you. You are not your brain anymore than you are your G.I. Joe doll. You are not your brain, you own it.


Jack Jack, if tomorrow you meet a beautiful girl and she's interested in you and you don't have the guts to ask her out, you don't have to feel bad about it. You don't have free will. If you've made mistakes in your life, don't learn from them. You didn't make those mistakes. Hormones did. Go rape someone. Tell the judge you didn't have free will. And when you die in bed lonely and without any accomplishments in life, it won't feel so bad, because you didn't have free will anyway. You guys have taken something as elementary as free will and turned into an excuse. An excuse so outrageously pathetic it's like you want me to be a cynic again. But then I remember that you guys are cynics, so I swallow my frustration and remember exactly why I'm on the side of the people with internally inconsistent concepts. I cherish learning from my mistakes and I love who I am, and the things I am predestined to do, and being predictable is not the same thing as having no will. You might as well say that you don't have a personality. And if wasn'y such a semantics whore, I might agree.
On the contrary, my brain is wired to learn from it's mistakes. I don't learn from my mistakes, my brain does. I don't have the freedom to not learn from my mistakes.

Also, I have inhibitions, my brain is wired to NOT rape people. And my brain is wired to have my body accomplish things in my life.
I said you are not free, that does not makes you uninhibited, quite the opposite in fact.

Your actions are not caused by your qualia. Your actions are the response to stimuli. By the way, qualia may not exist at all. So maybe we don't exist!
 

vonFiedler

I Like Chopin
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
By the way, qualia may not exist at all. So maybe we don't exist!
Better not say that around Objection.

I am, or I am not. If both of these are possible outcomes and we will never know the answer, one is still more practical and productive than the other. So I am. I don't need quales to know what I am, I only need a brain and I happen to have one. It seems to me like everyone but me has an internally inconsistent concept of who they are in this thread. I am, I exist, I make choices, and I do. The outcome of my choices is predefined by my free will.
 

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