Clearly, you've never been around my school's Physics department. >_<
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To dissect or not to dissect?
- Thread starter The 1 and Only Lady Gaga
- Start date
dissect! Hands on experience is way better than shit on the internet. immoral to disect a frog? people cut up chickens, cows, pigs, dolphins, whales all the time. But this frog is probably the common frog, so even if you dissect this one, there is still alot of them in the population.
If aliens cut us up.. that be cool..
If aliens cut us up.. that be cool..
when i was in high school we dissected pig fetuses. the hands-on-learning and actually being able to see the anatomy really did add a lot to the class. if you're really against dissection you can probably talk your teacher into letting you use some sort of simulation program. but don't completely skip it.
Shroomisaur
Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.
Hands-on experience is something you'll never be able to get out of any picture or diagram, even a computer animated one. The animals (frogs, in this case) are already dead, and had been raised specifically to be used for these kinds of experiments. ...and they're just frogs. Really, there's no element of morality here at all. I don't understand why there would be.
Well, all that we've poked around was spare cow parts from butcheries, so far we've opened cow hearts, cow brains, and cow eyes, and I don't find anything bad with it in my case. However if it were an animal killed specifically for the sake of dissection then I'd never do it- even though I'd love to poke around and check an actual full body.
People do dissect humans in med school as far as I know. Your body, after you die, can be used for teaching students. I know people are saying "they are specifically bred for dissection" but that feels like it would increase Lady Gaga's aversion to dissection rather than decrease it. Personally, I'd rather dissect something that died of other causes than know I'm dissecting something that was raised to be slaughtered so I could poke around its insides.
If you are going into the sciences, you should definitely be doing this exercise. If you aren't and feel strongly against it, maybe speak with your teacher and see if you can have alternate arrangements.
If you are going into the sciences, you should definitely be doing this exercise. If you aren't and feel strongly against it, maybe speak with your teacher and see if you can have alternate arrangements.
Biology: Studying life by killing it.
I had issues with dissecting a cat or two in university, but I had no issue with dissecting a shark since they are usually just farmed as by catch and sold off. I felt less bad knowing that one of my cats had a tumor the size of a pea and that they came as strays from mexico, diseased out the gills.
I find that if an animal is raised with the intent to be dissected/eaten, then it's likely that discrete animal would never have existed in the wild anyways so it's better for that animal to have existed in a lab than never to have existed. In some ways, a short life of limitless food, no predators and safety is favorable to a longer stressful life that might feature a slow painful death.
I had issues with dissecting a cat or two in university, but I had no issue with dissecting a shark since they are usually just farmed as by catch and sold off. I felt less bad knowing that one of my cats had a tumor the size of a pea and that they came as strays from mexico, diseased out the gills.
I find that if an animal is raised with the intent to be dissected/eaten, then it's likely that discrete animal would never have existed in the wild anyways so it's better for that animal to have existed in a lab than never to have existed. In some ways, a short life of limitless food, no predators and safety is favorable to a longer stressful life that might feature a slow painful death.
I did this in 9th grade. I thought it'd be neat cutting it up and looking inside.
I was wrong, dead wrong. It smelled so horrible and all of its insides were everywhere making the entire classroom smell. It was terrible. I would sometimes get frustrated cutting it and just start breaking its bones or cutting everywhere.
Would not recommend doing this.
I was wrong, dead wrong. It smelled so horrible and all of its insides were everywhere making the entire classroom smell. It was terrible. I would sometimes get frustrated cutting it and just start breaking its bones or cutting everywhere.
Would not recommend doing this.
medical students use cadavers all the time. there are just some things you can't get from looking at pictures, and you have to physcially look at the real thing. if it wasn't for hands on research, medical science wouldn't be what it is today.
in my time i've dissected fetal pigs, frogs, sheep brains, cow eyes, worms, perch, lamprey, and a cat. out of all that, skinning the cat was the worst. it was just fermaldahyde soaked hair everywhere. actually, scratch that...the smell from the lamprey was the worst.
in my time i've dissected fetal pigs, frogs, sheep brains, cow eyes, worms, perch, lamprey, and a cat. out of all that, skinning the cat was the worst. it was just fermaldahyde soaked hair everywhere. actually, scratch that...the smell from the lamprey was the worst.
Well if you eat meat, I feel it would be somewhat inconsistent to consider dissection immoral. I'm not going to assume you do, but I think that education has as much power to do good for the world as food does. Also, hands-on education is probably much more valuable than a computer model.
When I think about whether it's right or wrong to kill animals, I like to go back to what makes death sad, because I think that is the crux of the issue. In my mind, this is how I break it down. Death is sad because:
1. The loss felt by those around you
2. The loss of the potential future of the dead
3. The suffering or fear felt by the dying
I'm open to other reasons, which may or may not change my argument, but to me that breaks it down. For instance, the death of an elderly person is generally accepted as less tragic than that of a young person because of reason #2. A quiet death in one's sleep is less tragic than say, a fatal car accident, because of #3. There really isn't any human death I can think of that doesn't hurt because of #1, though.
If we apply this to an animal's death, though, I think many of these don't apply. Again, #1 arguably applies to most livestock animals (probably not to frogs and non-social animals, though), although it could be argued that they probably don't feel the kind of stress that humans in that situation would. I imagine they miss their companions but, lacking critical thinking skills, haven't figured out that they were killed. This is probably the worst aspect of killing animals. Personally I don't think #2 ought to apply to animals. Call it cold-hearted or selfish, but the frog was going to eat flies the rest of its life, the cow was going to moo and eat grass. They don't have hopes, dreams, or long-term goals. As far as I'm concerned, #2 only applies to sentient life. Again, I'll qualify that I understand that what I'm saying isn't conclusive proof, but this is how I view it. #3 is one that may or may not apply to animals. Obviously, every possible effort should be made to make the death as painless as possible. There is really no way to understand whether an animal product you are using violates this without finding out where and how the animal was killed.
So I hope that at least helps you think about this issue. I know I've done a lot of thinking about it after having a vegan roommate : P.
When I think about whether it's right or wrong to kill animals, I like to go back to what makes death sad, because I think that is the crux of the issue. In my mind, this is how I break it down. Death is sad because:
1. The loss felt by those around you
2. The loss of the potential future of the dead
3. The suffering or fear felt by the dying
I'm open to other reasons, which may or may not change my argument, but to me that breaks it down. For instance, the death of an elderly person is generally accepted as less tragic than that of a young person because of reason #2. A quiet death in one's sleep is less tragic than say, a fatal car accident, because of #3. There really isn't any human death I can think of that doesn't hurt because of #1, though.
If we apply this to an animal's death, though, I think many of these don't apply. Again, #1 arguably applies to most livestock animals (probably not to frogs and non-social animals, though), although it could be argued that they probably don't feel the kind of stress that humans in that situation would. I imagine they miss their companions but, lacking critical thinking skills, haven't figured out that they were killed. This is probably the worst aspect of killing animals. Personally I don't think #2 ought to apply to animals. Call it cold-hearted or selfish, but the frog was going to eat flies the rest of its life, the cow was going to moo and eat grass. They don't have hopes, dreams, or long-term goals. As far as I'm concerned, #2 only applies to sentient life. Again, I'll qualify that I understand that what I'm saying isn't conclusive proof, but this is how I view it. #3 is one that may or may not apply to animals. Obviously, every possible effort should be made to make the death as painless as possible. There is really no way to understand whether an animal product you are using violates this without finding out where and how the animal was killed.
So I hope that at least helps you think about this issue. I know I've done a lot of thinking about it after having a vegan roommate : P.
That's trivial. Someone who dies with no friends or family. Probably unlikely, but there are not infrequent cases of people dying in their homes and their death being unnoticed for several months. (If dead bodies didn't stink such cases would probably be far more common).
I disagree that dissection gives you important hands-on information. It's easy to memorize the information needed to pass a test in a high school biology class, and having a lab like that introduces new variables into what you're learning so you may not be learning the same things as everyone else. If you're planning on studying medicine or life sciences in college, then it's information you'll eventually need to know, but if you're just trying to pass a class, then there's no need to do anything more than memorize a diagram.
That's basically why I'm opposed to dissection in high school. It's a huge waste of resources for something that will only produce real value to a very small percent of the students.
That's basically why I'm opposed to dissection in high school. It's a huge waste of resources for something that will only produce real value to a very small percent of the students.
The reason I didn't give such an example is because living with no friends or family is extremely sad in its own right, so I didn't feel it was that much of an exception.
Such a focus of education is a terrible thing. "Teaching to the test" goes against the whole point of education.
But that's a matter for another thread really.
Putting animals and humans on the same plane has a lot more consequences if you use that standard than you are likely willing to bend your life around. Harvesting of most crops kills animals. If you use the same "people = animals" moral standard, grow your own crops. This is just one example...
That's true, but its exactly how most high school kids go through it. It's more or less how I go through it. Our education system is built that way.
But isn't that how it works in the real world? Science experiments don't always go as planned. If they did, they wouldn't be called "experiments", no?
Now, imagine you were a surgeon, and this is your first time every cutting something (someone) open, just because people felt that killing animals was wrong. That could end very badly.
It's a slippery slope, but you get my point. People going into fields where dissection is needed have to cut something open eventually during the learning process. Why not during high school?
Im not from the US, so dont know much about the education system. All i can say is that for me personally, education is the tool for later life. I dont really see the point in disecting a frog?? as when are you going to need that knowledge in the future?
As pointed out before a diagram or movie, is much better than repeatly
killing poor frogs for no reason. Dammit they should just evolve to Poliwrath and FIGHT!! back :naughty:
As pointed out before a diagram or movie, is much better than repeatly
killing poor frogs for no reason. Dammit they should just evolve to Poliwrath and FIGHT!! back :naughty:
Impo,it doesn't know that you're cutting it up.Just try and be careful while dissecting it,try to have some respect for the dead.
Plus,there's like a million frogs from where that came from.Don't think that its "immoral" to cut up a creature when we,humans,cut each other up. (CSI,anyone?)
It might be gross at first,but suck it up,don't show everyone what you had for lunch in the middle of class,and you'll be just fine.
Regarding the comments about not eating meat:
God put animal to help us humans.Cows,chickens,are meant to be eaten.Lions,tigers,are there to help maintain the balance of creatures in one area.They're in little numbers,and they don't eat that much,do they?
And,its good to step away from the monitor and getting some hands-on experience.
I'm not from the US,but that's what I think about this matter.
Plus,there's like a million frogs from where that came from.Don't think that its "immoral" to cut up a creature when we,humans,cut each other up. (CSI,anyone?)
It might be gross at first,but suck it up,don't show everyone what you had for lunch in the middle of class,and you'll be just fine.
Regarding the comments about not eating meat:
God put animal to help us humans.Cows,chickens,are meant to be eaten.Lions,tigers,are there to help maintain the balance of creatures in one area.They're in little numbers,and they don't eat that much,do they?
And,its good to step away from the monitor and getting some hands-on experience.
I'm not from the US,but that's what I think about this matter.