★ VGC 2023 Metagame Discussion: Regulation E

[LovelyLuna]

I personally don't think the Ogerpon forms are good enough to break previous pokemon that ruled the meta

 

[PenguGuy1]

I have a core I want to try with Base Ogerpon and Chien-Pao. I don't really know what to pair with it tho lol.

 

[DreamPrince]

By the way, here are the usage stats for Day 2 at Lillie!


View attachment 564159

coming back to haunt you, guys, seriously run switch ins. seems no where to be seen and remains strong, interesting. making a comeback standing as a Top 4 mon (in usage). What catches my eye though, nothing hits 50%, everything in general seems to be less dominant. Thoughts?

Do both forms of Urshifu count towards the same Pokemon?

 

[LovelyLuna]

Do both forms of Urshifu count towards the same Pokemon?

No, Urshifu Dark just didn't get enough usage to be among the Top 12

 

[Choruto]

Same. I honestly thought that ursh water really fell off a cliff with ogerpon running around, especially the wellspring mask because it has water absorb.

A mon isen't immediately invalidated by the existence of a counter. Otherwise would be a lot better lol.
You gotta consider that its not a 1v1 between and , Theres 2 other mons on the field. At a minimum you can target its partner, or switch out. When im playing against an its not an instant loss, I just have to play a bit better and make some reads. I mean with adamant scarf you deal a good 60-70% with CC and U turn.
Also, you forget that one of the premier partners for Urshifu, has a super effective move into , taunt, and is 1 point faster than it.

 

[flutterfan]

Toronto starts tomorrow, I’m gonna talk about meta trends and what I’m seeing on Showdown.

First off, there is a lot of , snow seems to be the most dominant weather right now(At least for automatic weather, aka Drought, Drizzle, Snow Warning, etc.) and + seems to be a very strong weather composition. I’m surprised that we haven’t seen more come to the fray, it synergizes well with . Though I guess losing Scald hurt it a little bit.

is making a comeback, I guess there is some Pokémon Championships History happening right now. Mostly next to , of course. And I’ve also seen some + shenanigans as well. The only problem with Dragonite is but it can just Tera that away.

I‘ve said it once, I’ll say it again. is a very good anti meta pick. Final Gambit is busted and the ability to outspeed Choice Scarf with its own Choice Scarf is very nice for speed control. The fact that it can easily set up Tailwind because of this is also amazing. The only problem with it is that it’s extremely frail, however, you’re probably ok with that considering it kinda has only 2 jobs: Tailwind and Final Gambit(Which will KO you anyway) And it gets Intimidate, forgot about that. So I guess it has another job.

Finally, we need to talk about .

had been a very dominant mon in Reg D. However, due to new toy syndrome as well as , dropped off a ton in usage. However, it’s making a return, looking at both the usage stats for Lille and Showdown in general. is higher up there than we expected it to be. It’s just so hard to switch into and Spore is just such a broken move that you still need to have on your radar at all times.

Well, that’s it. Thoughts?

 

[PenguGuy1]

A mon isen't immediately invalidated by the existence of a counter. Otherwise would be a lot better lol.
You gotta consider that its not a 1v1 between and , Theres 2 other mons on the field. At a minimum you can target its partner, or switch out. When im playing against an its not an instant loss, I just have to play a bit better and make some reads. I mean with adamant scarf you deal a good 60-70% with CC and U turn.
Also, you forget that one of the premier partners for Urshifu, has a super effective move into , taunt, and is 1 point faster than it.

You can't target the other opponent with water moves due to water absorb, and you really have to be careful when switching because if you always swap out of that matchup in maybe a Bo3, they'll catch on and play against you. Plus, Urshifu isn't really useful since it's forced into Choice Scarf, which most Lando T run. Also, if you don't U-turn, you just get OHKO'd by horn leech or wood hammer.

 

[PenguGuy1]

A mon isen't immediately invalidated by the existence of a counter. Otherwise would be a lot better lol.
You gotta consider that its not a 1v1 between and , Theres 2 other mons on the field. At a minimum you can target its partner, or switch out. When im playing against an its not an instant loss, I just have to play a bit better and make some reads. I mean with adamant scarf you deal a good 60-70% with CC and U turn.
Also, you forget that one of the premier partners for Urshifu, has a super effective move into , taunt, and is 1 point faster than it.

Forgot to mention, but if you just run Torn in a Bo3 setting (what I mostly play) they will counter that and maybe either force out the Torn or take it out.

 

[PenguGuy1]

What Tera type do you guys think of for Dusclops? Just wondering because I really want to prove how good Dusclops is. I know we've got Cresselia and Sinistcha, but I really enjoy using this dude for Trick Room teams.

 

[LovelyLuna]

What Tera type do you guys think of for Dusclops? Just wondering because I really want to prove how good Dusclops is. I know we've got Cresselia and Sinistcha, but I really enjoy using this dude for Trick Room teams.

Dark and Grass are the best rn, one for and the other for . Depends on weather you have redirection or fake out support and which matchup you're more comfortable into.

 

[Choruto]

Toronto starts tomorrow, I’m gonna talk about meta trends and what I’m seeing on Showdown.

First off, there is a lot of , snow seems to be the most dominant weather right now(At least for automatic weather, aka Drought, Drizzle, Snow Warning, etc.) and + seems to be a very strong weather composition. I’m surprised that we haven’t seen more come to the fray, it synergizes well with . Though I guess losing Scald hurt it a little bit.

is making a comeback, I guess there is some Pokémon Championships History happening right now. Mostly next to , of course. And I’ve also seen some + shenanigans as well. The only problem with Dragonite is but it can just Tera that away.

I‘ve said it once, I’ll say it again. is a very good anti meta pick. Final Gambit is busted and the ability to outspeed Choice Scarf with its own Choice Scarf is very nice for speed control. The fact that it can easily set up Tailwind because of this is also amazing. The only problem with it is that it’s extremely frail, however, you’re probably ok with that considering it kinda has only 2 jobs: Tailwind and Final Gambit(Which will KO you anyway) And it gets Intimidate, forgot about that. So I guess it has another job.

Finally, we need to talk about .

had been a very dominant mon in Reg D. However, due to new toy syndrome as well as , dropped off a ton in usage. However, it’s making a return, looking at both the usage stats for Lille and Showdown in general. is higher up there than we expected it to be. It’s just so hard to switch into and Spore is just such a broken move that you still need to have on your radar at all times.

Well, that’s it. Thoughts?

is just kinda useless. outclasses it in mostly every way except for some support moves and perish, which isen't worth giving up the speed, flying coverage, and tailwind.

Why use when you can use and to just kill everything or even banded , that way you still keep tons of damage and coverage without dying.

When you say I assume you mean all Ogers? is still in my mind very strong, the presence of Ogerpon and does not immediately invalidate it. I think its harder to position and certainly not good into every match up but still I think its got a role in the meta game

 

[Choruto]

You can't target the other opponent with water moves due to water absorb, and you really have to be careful when switching because if you always swap out of that matchup in maybe a Bo3, they'll catch on and play against you. Plus, Urshifu isn't really useful since it's forced into Choice Scarf, which most Lando T run. Also, if you don't U-turn, you just get OHKO'd by horn leech or wood hammer.

Well first of all your only stopped by follow me from Oger, which can conveniently be prevented from clicking it by taunt from tornadus. Most ogres run horn leech and it’s not possible to ohko urshifu if you want any semblance of bulk.
If I lead tornadus urshifu into an oger there are 2 scenarios - oger is led, or it’s in the back. If it’s in the back, easy. CC bleakwind, u turn bleak wind, taunt u turn, tailwind u turn, etc all work as options. Even a switch is super safe because most of the time oger will either follow me, wasting its turn or horn leech the urshifu slot, giving me an easy switch in my to a resist. If oger is in the back, there’s an almost guaranteed chance something will switch into it. Which is also fine, it allows me to set up with tailwind or get free chip damage into it, or u turn into some thing else with the less damage coming in. I can even make the read and go for surging. Just because a problematic mon is there doesn’t immediately invalidate something. If I see Ogerpon wellspring, it makes my life harder for sure but I can definitely play around it and I have ways to counter it. There are no hard checks in vgc, there are always ways to play around things and other strategies you can use to support your team

Sorry for bad grammar and no icons, I’m on mobile :/

 

[PenguGuy1]

Dark and Grass are the best rn, one for and the other for . Depends on weather you have redirection or fake out support and which matchup you're more comfortable into.

Thak you so much!

 

[PenguGuy1]

Well first of all your only stopped by follow me from Oger, which can conveniently be prevented from clicking it by taunt from tornadus. Most ogres run horn leech and it’s not possible to ohko urshifu if you want any semblance of bulk.
If I lead tornadus urshifu into an oger there are 2 scenarios - oger is led, or it’s in the back. If it’s in the back, easy. CC bleakwind, u turn bleak wind, taunt u turn, tailwind u turn, etc all work as options. Even a switch is super safe because most of the time oger will either follow me, wasting its turn or horn leech the urshifu slot, giving me an easy switch in my to a resist. If oger is in the back, there’s an almost guaranteed chance something will switch into it. Which is also fine, it allows me to set up with tailwind or get free chip damage into it, or u turn into some thing else with the less damage coming in. I can even make the read and go for surging. Just because a problematic mon is there doesn’t immediately invalidate something. If I see Ogerpon wellspring, it makes my life harder for sure but I can definitely play around it and I have ways to counter it. There are no hard checks in vgc, there are always ways to play around things and other strategies you can use to support your team

Sorry for bad grammar and no icons, I’m on mobile :/

But what if they are running offensive oger wellspring? What if they're good into the matchup? What if they run wood hammer instead of horn leach? Or maybe they read the taunt, tera water, and either do massive damage to your torn, or just straight up kill it? Even though you can play around it, I fell that there are better Pokemon for this interaction.

 

[PenguGuy1]

Well first of all your only stopped by follow me from Oger, which can conveniently be prevented from clicking it by taunt from tornadus. Most ogres run horn leech and it’s not possible to ohko urshifu if you want any semblance of bulk.
If I lead tornadus urshifu into an oger there are 2 scenarios - oger is led, or it’s in the back. If it’s in the back, easy. CC bleakwind, u turn bleak wind, taunt u turn, tailwind u turn, etc all work as options. Even a switch is super safe because most of the time oger will either follow me, wasting its turn or horn leech the urshifu slot, giving me an easy switch in my to a resist. If oger is in the back, there’s an almost guaranteed chance something will switch into it. Which is also fine, it allows me to set up with tailwind or get free chip damage into it, or u turn into some thing else with the less damage coming in. I can even make the read and go for surging. Just because a problematic mon is there doesn’t immediately invalidate something. If I see Ogerpon wellspring, it makes my life harder for sure but I can definitely play around it and I have ways to counter it. There are no hard checks in vgc, there are always ways to play around things and other strategies you can use to support your team

Sorry for bad grammar and no icons, I’m on mobile :/

76+ Atk Ogerpon-Wellspring Wood Hammer (1.2x Mask Boost) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Urshifu-Rapid Strike: 224-266 (127.2 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid Strike Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 148 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 45-54 (24 - 28.8%) -- 98.7% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid Strike U-turn vs. 252 HP / 148 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 78-94 (41.7 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 148 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 102-120 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even though you hit hard with some moves like CC and U-turn, you can still get OHKO'd and people might lead this mon with Tornadus.

 

[flutterfan]

is just kinda useless. outclasses it in mostly every way except for some support moves and perish, which isen't worth giving up the speed, flying coverage, and tailwind.

Why use when you can use and to just kill everything or even banded , that way you still keep tons of damage and coverage without dying.

When you say I assume you mean all Ogers? is still in my mind very strong, the presence of Ogerpon and does not immediately invalidate it. I think its harder to position and certainly not good into every match up but still I think its got a role in the meta game

At least is very defensively oriented and can set up rain automatically when in ’s case it has to use a move to set it up. And Torn‘s main priority is Tailwind anyways, with you don’t need to worry about these things.

and both don’t get Intimidate. Plus, has that AND Tailwind AND Final Gambit. So while it is a little niche, I stand by the fact that it’s a good anti meta mon in this format.

Yes, I do mean all Ogers. And I agree with your point on , doesn’t completely invalidate it and was still lower usage than it to begin with. My main point on invalidation was redirection, is much better than it at doing this and sometimes even as well. All Ogerpon forms(sans Wellspring) are so offensive oriented that only 3 or 4 moves will probably knock it out, so Follow Me isn’t used as much on Ogerpon than on say Indeedee.

Remember that this is all my opinion as wel, you can criticize it.

 

[Choruto]

But what if they are running offensive oger wellspring? What if they're good into the matchup? What if they run wood hammer instead of horn leach? Or maybe they read the taunt, tera water, and either do massive damage to your torn, or just straight up kill it? Even though you can play around it, I fell that there are better Pokemon for this interaction.

Well if your running offensive problem solved! is free to target the opposing slot, your can still taunt the swords dance and you will be running less bulk for bleakwind.
Very few run wood hammer. Right now pikalytics says about 20% run it, but I suspect its even less. Even more so on supportive sets. Horn leech is much better. The arguments about reads is kind of a moot point, I could also say what If I predict they will horn leech and switch into something else? What if I predict they will not follow me and surging the partner? What if they just dont bring it. That sort of stuff is not related to the mon itself

Also yeah obviously its not a perfect match up. I would still say they have the edge in the match up, but that can be overcome with smart play or leads. I just think its perfectly possible to play around and not the instant game over you guys think it is

Also, you sent some calcs so I will send some of my own
76+ Atk Ogerpon-Wellspring Horn Leech (1.2x Mask Boost) vs. 44 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid Strike: 140-168 (77.3 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
156+ Atk Urshifu-Rapid Strike Close Combat vs. 236 HP / 68 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 112-133 (60.5 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[LovelyLuna]

At least is very defensively oriented and can set up rain automatically when in ’s case it has to use a move to set it up. And Torn‘s main priority is Tailwind anyways, with you don’t need to worry about these things.

Yes does indeed have things going for it, I think the main thing is that hard rain is pretty poor into Wellspring and you gain more value from as a rain setter because it threatens the common Grass types. Tailwind and Wide Guard are also a lot better than Perish and Encore in this meta imo. It's harder to fit into a team when the meta is really offensive, you'd have to run a more defensive team which doesn't abuse rain and it probably crumbles 's usage as of now.

I'd also like to mention wins the weather war and has the option to set rain or tailwind first depending on the opposing team, the versatility generally makes it preferable. But tbf isn't as good on hard rain teams and is Strongest on semi rain teams using and .

and both don’t get Intimidate. Plus, has that AND Tailwind AND Final Gambit. So while it is a little niche, I stand by the fact that it’s a good anti meta mon in this format.

I think calling it 'good' is a stretch. It fills specific niches but and being so dominant makes it harder to justify . While worth it, locking into Tailwind isn't as ideal and I feel like it's very restricted by its Choice Scarf. For example, Prankster vs Final Gambit makes Torn preferred on most HO, while 's typing and bulk along with access to rock slide allowing it to function as a pivot is more valuable for balance comps than the trading Final Gambit or Speed control tailwind. May need a specific team built around it and while I think it's viable, I'm not sure how far it can go

Yes, I do mean all Ogers. And I agree with your point on , doesn’t completely invalidate it and was still lower usage than it to begin with. My main point on invalidation was redirection, is much better than it at doing this and sometimes even as well. All Ogerpon forms(sans Wellspring) are so offensive oriented that only 3 or 4 moves will probably knock it out, so Follow Me isn’t used as much on Ogerpon than on say Indeedee.

This is what I currently hard disagree with. Excluding ' other tools, I consider it a better redirector than the pokemon mentioned. can't redirect either but it is now weak to instead of resists , The dark and ghost weaknesses are also more impactful than the psychic weakness has imo, as it only struggles into psyspam where Sinistcha drops either way.

has a place but is generally outclassed by outside of Psyspam, mainly because of . I think if you're looking for a redirector you'd probably not look at Indeedee and is a preferable pick for now

Ogerpon forms do indeed not need many turns to knock it out, but VGC is very fast paced and even one or 2 turns can be enough to remove the Ogerpon. I think their main disadvantage is that most run a partner like or who pressure the grass types, and when they Tera out of their weakness, they're vulnerable to a crucial turn or 2 of redirection.

I'm a big believer in it honestly and argue It's the best Grass type right now. This is notably also just my opinion, feel free to criticise me.

 

[flutterfan]

Yes does indeed have things going for it, I think the main thing is that hard rain is pretty poor into Wellspring and you gain more value from as a rain setter because it threatens the common Grass types. Tailwind and Wide Guard are also a lot better than Perish and Encore in this meta imo. It's harder to fit into a team when the meta is really offensive, you'd have to run a more defensive team which doesn't abuse rain and it probably crumbles 's usage as of now.

I'd also like to mention wins the weather war and has the option to set rain or tailwind first depending on the opposing team, the versatility generally makes it preferable. But tbf isn't as good on hard rain teams and is Strongest on semi rain teams using and .


I think calling it 'good' is a stretch. It fills specific niches but and being so dominant makes it harder to justify . While worth it, locking into Tailwind isn't as ideal and I feel like it's very restricted by its Choice Scarf. For example, Prankster vs Final Gambit makes Torn preferred on most HO, while 's typing and bulk along with access to rock slide allowing it to function as a pivot is more valuable for balance comps than the trading Final Gambit or Speed control tailwind. May need a specific team built around it and while I think it's viable, I'm not sure how far it can go



This is what I currently hard disagree with. Excluding ' other tools, I consider it a better redirector than the pokemon mentioned. can't redirect either but it is now weak to instead of resists , The dark and ghost weaknesses are also more impactful than the psychic weakness has imo, as it only struggles into psyspam where Sinistcha drops either way.

has a place but is generally outclassed by outside of Psyspam, mainly because of . I think if you're looking for a redirector you'd probably not look at Indeedee and is a preferable pick for now

Ogerpon forms do indeed not need many turns to knock it out, but VGC is very fast paced and even one or 2 turns can be enough to remove the Ogerpon. I think their main disadvantage is that most run a partner like or who pressure the grass types, and when they Tera out of their weakness, they're vulnerable to a crucial turn or 2 of redirection.

I'm a big believer in it honestly and argue It's the best Grass type right now. This is notably also just my opinion, feel free to criticise me.

Ogerpon goat grass type IMO

 

[LovelyLuna]

Fair take, I think the two forms, Amoonguss, and Rillaboom are all superb right now

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Fair take, I think the two forms, Amoonguss, and Rillaboom are all superb right now

Amoonguss is making the most of it while it still can, counting the days until Miraidon and/or Tapu Koko are going to be running around everywhere

 

[flutterfan]

Time for an analysis of Day 1.

We saw a lot of creativity across the board, seems like this is what Regulation E delivers with such a diverse field of Pokémon. I have to admit, there were some Pokémon that I didn’t expect to see. as well as were both very interesting choices that we saw on stream. We also saw a lot of + , just like I predicted. To be honest, I’m just really surprised at the amount of variety and top play that we are seeing right now.

Even though there were creative teams, that doesn’t mean we didn’t see standard Pokemon. , , and always seemed to appear in every match on stream. With , and getting involved too.

Day 1 is always very exciting because there‘s always such a wide variety of teams. There’s always gonna be at least one match where you’re gonna see something a little bit different. And as Day 2 approaches, I’m really exciting to see how these more unique teams and the players end up performing.

 

[LovelyLuna]

Toronto Day 2 Results! I'd say all of these stats are very interesting. on top? being brought down to 's and ' usage? getting 1.5x as more common? showing again? actually struggling? Nothing over 50% even if the 12th pokemon has 20% Usage

Thoughts??

Me personally

 

[Pyritie]

shoutouts to grass/rockpon being the only forms to make it to top 4

 

[4Kuser]

View attachment 566390
Toronto Day 2 Results! I'd say all of these stats are very interesting. on top? being brought down to 's and ' usage? getting 1.5x as more common? showing again? actually struggling? Nothing over 50% even if the 12th pokemon has 20% Usage

Thoughts??

Me personally

View attachment 566391

Seeing Flutter Mane below 50% usage is weird to see, or is it just me? Amoonguss never dies or withers away lol. Urshifu being #1 makes sense, especially when Harcanine and Landorus are everywhere.