Implemented WCOP Format (tiers)

[BigFatMantis]

Talking from a spectator perspective:

A primary focus on CG OU, with a split on recent oldgens and some lower tiers, looks like the most exciting, as it creates a mix that I believe many people like to see and that many people enjoyed in the old SPL days. But no need to go overboard with it - I think the CG OU majority + SS/SM + UU/Ubers is most appealing.

There’s already a Retro WCOP that has actually gotten quite popular and has all oldgen OUs - doesn’t mean we can’t do oldgens in this WCOP but no need for a total oldgen focus either.

 

[soulgazer]

Do nothing.

You don’t have to join a tournament if you find it boring. Stop changing a tournament on a whim every few years because you get bored. It is completely normal. Just let the next generation of players represent your team.

I do miss the tournament (SPL) that had both lower tiers and old gens, but I don’t believe that fits WCOP thematically.

As an aside, many countries joined the fray since WCOP became CG OU only. They are slowly but surely accumulating achievements and I wish to continue watching them grow…

 

[Star]

This thread has made it very clear that it's a pretty overwhelming opinion currently that the WCoP tiers should change from all CG OU. After reading through it and discussing within the TD team, we've decided on going with one of the 2 formats below. Given the 10 slot format we will also be increasing the sub count. Teams will be allowed to have 3-5 subs making the overall roster size 13-15.

1. 5 SV OU, SS OU, SM OU, ORAS OU, SV Ubers, SV UU
2. 4 SV OU, SS OU, SM OU, ORAS OU, SV Ubers, SV UU, SV DOU

We decided on a mix of old gens and lower tiers to keep an overall balance of the two within our team tournament circuit. This is in turn essentially necessitated a 10 slot format, as it's extremely difficult to fit a mix into 8 slots and we also felt that 12 slots would be burdensome to smaller regions. We chose the most recent old gens since they're undeniably the most accessible. Many WCoP players were around when these tiers were CG, they're the most similar mechanics-wise, and they are represented in other official tours (Smogon Tour/Masters). As for the lower tiers, UU and Ubers have generally been the most popular singles lower tiers. There's also no concerns with them being ready to play in time for qualifiers in new gen release years.

The open question is a 5th SV OU vs a Doubles for a final slot. SV OU is obviously Smogon's flagship tier and it having half the slots in a tournament that's been 100% CG OU for the past 4 years would make sense. Doubles on the other hand does have a large general playerbase and official tournament of it's own. Doubles opens the tournament up to players who would otherwise not be able to participate, and allows singles players to experience a new aspect of competitive Pokemon. However, it would obviously be the most different of the included tiers and there have been valid concerns raised in this thread about it's inclusion. It would have the largest barrier of entry and the size of the playerbase in Smogon tournaments is much smaller compared to its ladder activity.

We plan on leaving this thread open for another week or so to let people debate regarding the last slot (5th SV OU vs Doubles) and will decide on a final format afterwards. Also tagging last year's captains for awareness on the changes (this isn't a vote though)

Vileman Ikaishi Eoward Raahel Analytic Mysterious M zS Eternal Spirit Oshim Fluore elednb Starmind Glue Perish Song Astoria ElectricityCat Huargensy obii false Aurella ima Stone Cold London Beats MANNAT Ruft Genesis7 So Noisy mind gaming Cicada Airi

 

[Raptor]

Please do a survey of the players of each team from last year to have a format as soon as possible, some of us have to prepare our country long in advance.

edit: ups unlucky timing

 

[z0mOG]

US West supports DOU as the final slot for the reasons outlined in Star's post

Doubles on the other hand does have a large general playerbase and official tournament of it's own. Doubles opens the tournament up to players who would otherwise not be able to participate, and allows singles players to experience a new aspect of competitive Pokemon.

Any opportunity to increase tier spread amongst the playerbase is a supported changed in our opinion.

 

[a fairy]

Speaking for myself and not behalf of the TD team or anyone else: I hope DOU is the selected tier for WCOP.

The difference between four and five SV OU slots feels insignificant when it comes to the level of competition, and I think there is benefit to not putting half of starter slots in a different tier. The need to rely on more than one tier to hit ties or wins seems like a competitive benefit to any team tournament, especially one that is not operated by a tier for a tier (<tier>PLs, etc). While I think given 'mons, it's fair to assume that one of five games would be expected to go in a team's favor at least once a week, I think that there is good competitive sense in not having weeks be able to be decided off of a single, actively-being-developed, tier taking up half of the slots.

In addition, I think that a number of the negative qualifiers stated by people in this thread are in the unfortunate position of the catch 22 - the problems are real, because there are limited outlets for cross-contamination and learning, and because there are these limiting factors, there is a desire to not try to cross those boundaries. While some of the stated problems are not of this nature, I do think that it is a negative feedback loop - DOU is isolated, so why bring them into the tournament, therefore isolating them further (as a single example).

I think that Star's two possible formats are both highly competitive, strong formats that will not disappoint WCoP. But I think that the reasons against DOU's inclusions are within the community's hands to blunt or solve, and when the option otherwise is to make half of this tournament a single tier, I think that as a spectator I would like to see DOU's inclusion.

 

[RoiDadadou]

Preventing countries from playing this year (since they won’t have that much players, and especially in those tiers) because some players are bored. Good call, I hope the teams that will be able to play will have a great time, this won’t be the case for all of us.

- WCoP is made to be and identifiable tournament that can bring new players. People will be brought to a country tournament, they will not be searching for acronyms like SPL/SCL, etc.
- This growing playerbase will need slots to be put in. Having one same tier to build around, and integrate new players, was both welcoming to new players, helping them develop, but also for the tournament format, enhancing it through every week. Instead, we'll probably slot them in ORAS / DOU. Because it's well known that it's way easier to begin with a side tier than the main one.

Not an hostage situation like some said. WCoP can, and will, continue without Belgium. But it's a statement.

We barely had the number of slots last year, despite our best efforts to bring people on the team, searching on Facebook, Pinterest and even Tumblr. We only had 8. The four last were figuration for subs, as they most often were AFKs or unable to play, just to fill the lineup. So now, we need:
- 10 main slots.
- People forcing themselves to play SS/SM/ORAS/Ubers/UU.
- Adapt the whole project mentality and split people up because we won't be working together on one whole tier project anymore.

And little cherry on top of the cake: three of the best players of the country are allowed to stay in Europe, when their sole presence could make the difference between us being even able to sign up as a team, and otherwise, forfeit this year before signups.

 

[Leo]

speaking on behalf of team Latin America since we are no longer represented by rats (Amy Quaris)

DOU is a welcome addition to the format, makes a lot of sense considering how widely spread out doubles talent is—look no further than the most recent Doubles World Cup.
Arguments regarding isolation are silly, prior team tournaments that included doubles (spl snake scl) had this issue because the team environment largely depends on crossover between tiers and singles players are notorious for not having a clue about doubles. In World Cup theres a history of an already established team environment that eases the introduction of doubles players into the mix. Singles players may not understand whats going on in the dou channel as usual but u guys speak the same language, u can find some common ground.

 

[Eoward]

I see that the decision was taken on the basis of what was said here, but I have the impression that such changes were not necessarily supported by the majority. While a few individuals have put forward well-founded proposals for changes , what about those who may not have expressed an opinion because they don't want (as much) change?

I can't understand the two extra slots. Belgium and I have been struggling for years to perform against the big nations, we managed it last year and now we've been dealt an unexpected slap in the face. It's going to be hard for us to come up with a competitive Line UP (not counting the New tiers, I'll come back to that). How can you expect to put on a good show and have some great confrontations with such a format? And I'm not going to go back over the existence of Team Europe, which is a great challenge for us and which should only include players who are ineligible for the other teams. I have the impression that certain privileges are granted here and there without any real consideration for the players' demands.

As for the addition of lower tiers, I think I'm right in saying that many people seemed to be against it. I gave my arguments in a previous post. It's another decision that will favour the big nations that have a choice, where before anyone could create a surprise. The tournament loses interest. The Full CG Ou format allowed the teams to work hard internally, as a group.
This will no longer be the case.

My boys and I are opposed to the proposed changes, and not just out of self-interest.

We would understand the addition of a few old OU gens for the diversity of the games, but no more. I hope to be heard. Thanks for your time.

 

[Xrn]

Speaking for myself as an OU and DOU player, not on behalf of US South, I would love to see DOU in the tournament for reasons outlined above.

Concerns with isolation are fair but in my experience at least this isn't totally the case. Both SCLs I've been around for saw the DOUers at least talk in general chat and fuck around with teammates even if they exclusively play DOU. Creating a welcoming environment really should not be an issue in WCOP of all tours, so I wouldn't expect that to be an issue. The extremely scary concept of including DOU support on the roster shouldn't be much of a concern either with this format adding bench slots. Additionally, now is probably the most involved singles players have ever been with doubles. Many singles players shown some interest in VGC in recent years (Tony, bruno, Pearl, Trosko, z0mOG, shiloh, mind gaming, and ofc Michaelderbeste2) and others have had success in DOU itself (robjr, Star, Amaranth, myself.) DOUers have shown proficiency in singles tiers over the years too (emforbes SM, Mishimono DPP, SMB RBY, umbry ADV/SM/UU), so it's not like they're completely incapable of picking up singles to help out.

 

[Genesis7]

I’m anti-DOU, as is the sentiment in our Discord. As per reasons in my initial post.

EDIT: Just want to add that I think this change has obvious negative effects on a lot of the current and recent qualifying teams. This is collateral damage that maybe needs to happen for the future of the tour. But, I think DOU just aims to make it that much tougher for some of these newer teams to put forward a competitive lineup.

 

[Finchinator]

My personal preference is 5 SV without DOU. I hate to be the guy that stomps on a tier with a good community; I don’t intend to stand in the way of their inclusion if the support is there.

I do think a 5th SV makes the most sense unless a lot of the smaller regions speak up saying this is a change that is ok for them (and if so, I’ll gladly stfu). I think every region should post their thoughts regardless. Anyway, UU and Ubers have a lot of overlap playerbase wise with the prior demographic and while DOU has more overlap than ever, we have seen the line drawn here between them in our individual official circuit (GS vs OSDT) as well as in select unofficial PLs.

To me, DOU is very interesting, but it requires a dedicated player and oftentimes an involved helper, meaning you need at least one and probably multiple competent roster slots dedicated to it. Some of these regions have been ramping up their CG OU for years now and having it cut in half is already rough for them. Now needing to branch out much further and potentially put themselves in a compromised position may be a bit much. I think another SV slot would keep the tournament more competitive, but another DOU slot would add a lot of appeal, variation, etc. and, if the playerbase is vast enough, I get it.

I do think isolation alone is a bad argument for the reasons Xrn stated and to me it’s mainly about how the teams in the tournament can articulate themselves and what the depth of the playerbase across regions is.

 

[njnp]

Voicing my support for DOU. The community is fantastic and welcoming. I'm glad they're getting the opportunity to be in WCOP. I hope things go in their favor.

 

[Actuarily]

Obviously I’m pro DOU being included, but I do think the arguments against including DOU fall a little flat. Just a few of the main points I’ve seen:

2. The timing for DOU with VGC events as well as Doubles odd-one-out status in a teamcord full of Singles players

I can see this argument being made in draft tours where you may have to not only dedicate drafting a doubles player but also a support slot to doubles, but for a non-draft tour like WCOP it’s easy enough to have your dedicated doubles player and then their friends from the same region (which they’ve probably made from the doubles WCOP) can join the discord and support.

I would like to point out that including DOU/Ubers/UU (maybe less so with UU and Ubers) does feel like those starters would be on a bit of an island from the rest of the team. Not the case for everyone, but I feel like this may constrain the team culture and well roundedness of the tournament as it pertains to the difficulty of selecting the right substitutes to round out this team + support the starters, while the OU tiers objectively call for more attention.

I suppose SPL teams of yesteryear looked quite similar, but I did have the same complaint with them. Especially with DOU.

I also think the idea of tiers like Dou “being on an island” from other tiers isn’t much of the case in a tour like WCOP, as the whole point of the tournament is that everyone on the team shares a common region, and thus teammates have lots in common already, even beyond that we’re all Pokemon players. In my experience arguably most of the convos in WCOP team tours’ discords aren’t even Pokemon related.

2) the main proposal right now features doubles which is certainly stretched more thin than some oldgens, but also is extremely different from every other tier so it’s way harder to flex into

For many regions, arguably the two or three players they’d most want to start in an Oldgens tiers are also the players they’d want starting in SV singles. Now obviously they can support those slots, but with adding doubles you’d generally get to pick the best of many players in your region that you’d be happy to have start. So I am not sure how doubles would be “stretched thin.” (While there definitely are doubles players that play singles tiers & vice versa so they’d be able to support each other, I also do want to say the idea that there’s some big difference in knowledge required to play between the two gets disproven every OSDT as there’s always multiple singles players that top cut).

 

[ninjadog]

Of the two options stated I think DOU is the vastly superior option.

For starters I really don't understand why 3 old gen slots are 'locked' vs only 2 lower tiers, if people don't think DOU is appropriate for the tour then the debate should be about which other lower tier to replace it with and not a 5th SV. The fact old gens are for whatever reason held in higher regard than lower tiers by a non-insignificant portion of the site is so bizarre to me, lower tiers are across the board more popular and the player bases are at the least on par, it would be a massive slap in the face to the lower tiers community to not have equal representation in offical team tours.

I think people severely overestimate how different or foreign DOU is, yeah 2 pokemon on the field is jarring at first but in terms of actual gameplay I think SV DOU has more in common with SV OU than say ORAS or SM do, given they share all the same mechanics (most notably tera), and would have more overlap in what mons and moves are used. Obviously there are differences but I think this standard of 'oh it's so isolated' is unfairly applied only to DOU.

I also agree w what everyone above has said supporting DOU.

 

[yone]

Teams will be allowed to have 3-5 subs making the overall roster size 13-15.

1. 5 SV OU, SS OU, SM OU, ORAS OU, SV Ubers, SV UU
2. 4 SV OU, SS OU, SM OU, ORAS OU, SV Ubers, SV UU, SV DOU

This is way too much.
Some teams can't have a full competitive roster, and with players presenting a competitive level of play in certain low-tiers, this decision is clearly to the disadvantage of countries that already struggle to balance during a WCUP in full CG OU.
If it is possible for this decision to be reconsidered and for the captains' opinion to be listened to as a priority for the integrity of the tournament, please do so.

- A spectator

 

[Finchinator]

WCOP was 10 slots as recently as 2019; the tiers included in both options are more recent with lower barriers of entry than some of the tiers back then.

I would truly hope that neither option presented should be seen as too much given this.

 

[Lily]

Not on behalf of Team Europe since they've fixed their sleep schedules but IMO DOU > a different lower tier > 5th SVOU

ninjadog's post sums this up pretty much perfectly. 4 SV is plenty and the balance between oldgens and lowers shouldn't be tipping in favour of oldgens (or really tipping at all). DOU is a perfectly fine add and I agree with Actuarily's points about the "island status" of DOU being less notable in WCoP vs SCL where the team ends up being more of a friend group rather than a random assortment of good players.

If not DOU then throw RU or something in over the 5th SV. The main argument for a 5th SV being the arbitrary choice of "it's half the slots" doesn't rlly hold up and the value gained from another tier would be a big boost comparatively.

 

[Genesis7]

Obviously I’m pro DOU being included, but I do think the arguments against including DOU fall a little flat. Just a few of the main points I’ve seen:



I can see this argument being made in draft tours where you may have to not only dedicate drafting a doubles player but also a support slot to doubles, but for a non-draft tour like WCOP it’s easy enough to have your dedicated doubles player and then their friends from the same region (which they’ve probably made from the doubles WCOP) can join the discord and support.


I also think the idea of tiers like Dou “being on an island” from other tiers isn’t much of the case in a tour like WCOP, as the whole point of the tournament is that everyone on the team shares a common region, and thus teammates have lots in common already, even beyond that we’re all Pokemon players. In my experience arguably most of the convos in WCOP team tours’ discords aren’t even Pokemon related.


For many regions, arguably the two or three players they’d most want to start in an Oldgens tiers are also the players they’d want starting in SV singles. Now obviously they can support those slots, but with adding doubles you’d generally get to pick the best of many players in your region that you’d be happy to have start. So I am not sure how doubles would be “stretched thin.” (While there definitely are doubles players that play singles tiers & vice versa so they’d be able to support each other, I also do want to say the idea that there’s some big difference in knowledge required to play between the two gets disproven every OSDT as there’s always multiple singles players that top cut).

I am referring to DOU players being on an island in terms of prep. Each team will need a dedicated starter and sub for DOU which is not viable or feasible for some regions. It even says this in my post verbatim, so I am not sure how this was misconstrued.

This has nothing to do with the team environment being affected by DOU players. I assume this will be irrelevant regardless of what tier we are discussing.

 

[Mizuhime]

I am referring to DOU players being on an island in terms of prep. Each team will need a dedicated starter and sub for DOU which is not viable or feasible for some regions. It even says this in my post verbatim, so I am not sure how this was misconstrued.

How is it not feasible for some regions to include 1 doubles player, I would argue it's harder to find 5 competent OU players within most regions than it is to find 4 and a doubles player. There is easily a player for every existing and potential existing team in world cup.

To me, DOU is very interesting, but it requires a dedicated player and oftentimes an involved helper, meaning you need at least one and probably multiple competent roster slots dedicated to it.

You only need 1 slot for 1 doubles player unless you intend to add a sub for that player. Each doubles player that would be on a potential roster is already likely part of a Doubles world cup roster, it's not hard to include another player from those already pre existing teams to help their country. It's not like there wont be volunteers either.

 

[Genesis7]

How is it not feasible for some regions to include 1 doubles player, I would argue it's harder to find 5 competent OU players within most regions than it is to find 4 and a doubles player. There is easily a player for every existing and potential existing team in world cup.



You only need 1 slot for 1 doubles player unless you intend to add a sub for that player. Each doubles player that would be on a potential roster is already likely part of a Doubles world cup roster, it's not hard to include another player from those already pre existing teams to help their country. It's not like there wont be volunteers either.

A starter and a sub are 2 players... this will not be an issue for most teams. But where do you expect teams like Bangladesh to come up with this? A lot of less established teams, a few of which are now in the main tournament, will have a slot that will be essentially unsupported and thrown to the wolves.

This is the same situation we had 5 years ago with GSC, where some teams were just selecting whoever was up to the task to get farmed. I do not think that DOU will be as bad as this in terms of finding players to start, as the tier is just more popular. But, the issue arises with the fact that if a region has one viable DOUer (and most will have little issue finding a competitive player), they either pick a substitute to support them, or have this starter just do their own prep and testing as not very many singles players are adept at doubles. Not the case for everyone, as there are players like Xrn, shiloh, z0mOG, etc. who would be on their respective teams anyway and can support, but for most teams this will be the case. Canada will have no problems finding 2 DOUers for the roster as an example, but it seems like with 5 subs for 10 slots, one dedicated DOU sub is occupying valuable roster space.

Doubles WCoP also has 13 teams where we have 32+ participating in WCoP at this point... this is a huge curveball for a ton of these new teams.

 

[Mizuhime]

But where do you expect teams like Bangladesh to come up with this? A lot of less established teams, a few of which are now in the main tournament, will have a slot that will be essentially unsupported and thrown to the wolves.

Some of these teams can't come up with enough OU players to be competitive

Europe: Yoda2798, Lily Voltix
US West: eragon11145 EternalSnowman qsns
Spain: SMB JRL
France: ratpacker Nephtyrix
Germany: MichaelderBeste2
Midwest: Nails tyo bage1
Oceania: YoBuddy
UK: Charlotte NinjaSnapple
India: Nido-Rus, AIRedzone
South: Xrn Fangame10 Spurrific
Northeast: zee Actuarily Lunar.
Canada: Grandmas Cookin GenOne
LA: Meminger21 GasaiYunoSan
Italy: MADARAAAA, Amaranth
China: xqiht MetapodVGChannel
Brazil: Oblivion Wing (seraphz) Staraptor
Argentia: Enzonana.
Chile: Jhonx~
Pakistan: raf
Mexico: Akaru Kokuyo Railgun (luisin)
Asia: Idyll (memoric)
Belgium: BIKharma

This list is just off the top of my head from someone who can't remember what they ate for lunch yesterday, there's plenty of players I missed and some teams I even missed because i'm too lazy to finish it.

 

[RoiDadadou]

Some of these teams can't come up with enough OU players to be competitive

Europe: Yoda2798, Lily Voltix
US West: eragon11145 EternalSnowman qsns
Spain: SMB JRL
France: ratpacker Nephtyrix
Germany: MichaelderBeste2
Midwest: Nails tyo bage1
Oceania: YoBuddy
UK: Charlotte NinjaSnapple
India: Nido-Rus, AIRedzone
South: Xrn Fangame10
Northeast: zee Actuarily Lunar.
Canada: Grandmas Cookin GenOne
LA: Meminger21 GasaiYunoSan
Italy: MADARAAAA, Amaranth
China: xqiht MetapodVGChannel
Brazil: Oblivion Wing (seraphz) Staraptor
Argentia: Enzonana.
Chile: Jhonx~
Pakistan: raf
Mexico: Akaru Kokuyo @luisin

This list is just off the top of my head from someone who can't remember what they ate for lunch yesterday, there's plenty of players I missed and some teams I even missed because i'm too lazy to finish it.

Same can be said for Doubles. And UU, and Ubers. If the 'you can just pick it up' thing applies to those, it applies most certainly even more to CG OU.

(I like Doubles, don't get me wrong, it's just not realistic to say that it's easier to fill than OU.)

 

[Grandmas Cookin]

considering there is a custom avatar award here it would also not be difficult to pull from the VGC pool (or potentially even make the doubles slot VGC over DOU) as there are strong doubles players around the world and the transition from VGC to DOU is not very significant as many of them have been playing with most of the same mons for as long as the rest of the DOU players. notably VGC had a world cup last year with 60 countries so there should be no shortage of doubles players

edit: a link to all of the countries with a team

 

[elodin]

Preventing countries from playing this year (since they won’t have that much players, and especially in those tiers) because some players are bored. Good call, I hope the teams that will be able to play will have a great time, this won’t be the case for all of us.

- WCoP is made to be and identifiable tournament that can bring new players. People will be brought to a country tournament, they will not be searching for acronyms like SPL/SCL, etc.
- This growing playerbase will need slots to be put in. Having one same tier to build around, and integrate new players, was both welcoming to new players, helping them develop, but also for the tournament format, enhancing it through every week. Instead, we'll probably slot them in ORAS / DOU. Because it's well known that it's way easier to begin with a side tier than the main one.

Not an hostage situation like some said. WCoP can, and will, continue without Belgium. But it's a statement.

We barely had the number of slots last year, despite our best efforts to bring people on the team, searching on Facebook, Pinterest and even Tumblr. We only had 8. The four last were figuration for subs, as they most often were AFKs or unable to play, just to fill the lineup. So now, we need:
- 10 main slots.
- People forcing themselves to play SS/SM/ORAS/Ubers/UU.
- Adapt the whole project mentality and split people up because we won't be working together on one whole tier project anymore.

And little cherry on top of the cake: three of the best players of the country are allowed to stay in Europe, when their sole presence could make the difference between us being even able to sign up as a team, and otherwise, forfeit this year before signups.

physically cringed from this post. bro if you needed to search for people on goddamn tumblr to fill a wcop team maybe ur country shouldnt be in the tournament to begin with? go try to play for europe or smth? hello?? like u clearly dont have an engaged community in sv ou in belgium if u have to go fetch players on random social media sites to fill a quota for cg ou 10 slots, so why the fuck are you complaining abt a format change? this legit could make it easier for u to find players LOL if you needed to scroll through tumblr, facebook, tinder and linkedin to find 10 sv ou players already, worst case scenario u just add shit like instagram and bumble and im p sure you could find players in ss - oras as well at this point. crazy stupid post fr.

anyway, voicing my support for dou addition despite brazil not having any dou players. dou is a balanced tier with an active and engaged playerbase, which should be welcomed into the official circuit more. like a fairy said, 1 more sv ou slot doesnt rly make a difference in any aspect p much, while 1 dou slot brings a whole lot more to the tournament. should be a great addition.