Oh, yeah, I always seem to think all Pranksters have Taunt. And you're right, Klefki would definitely be evil if it did have it.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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Wait what? some certain pokes are blacklisted on this forum, and somehow mr mimes getting an analysis? What can he possibly do over gardevoir that doesn't involve baton passing?
Are you implying I'm not a good player fren?
People should rarely be using rapid spin because of the shit distribution and ability to be blocked, excadrill doesn't fit most teams, and most others are generally worthless. Teams that run defog over rapid spin don't desperately need sr off, it's mostly to protect from deo hyper offense while not being forced to use shit mons. And to say that defog is only for if you aren't running hazards is absolutely ridiculous. Running sr and defog isn't ridiculous at all, as long as your not using a deoxys defog is fine. I'm not gonna lie, nearly everything you have said here is wrong, latis are great defoggers, including latios. Ik this paragraph rambled a bit but I was just reading through yours looking through the bullshit :p
In summary, rapid spin is a niche option this gen cuz I would like to use good mons like latis or scizor not either excadrill or shit (and exca isn't that good tbh, it's slow and not pwrful enough to really threaten stall)
Also, like 6 excas on 60 spl teams and two starmies, one was trick specs. I guarantee every team that wasn't deo hyper offense had defog, showing which is the dominant (and better ) move
The Elephant looking Rapid Spinner with Ice Shard that I'm not even going to name because it causes too much of a fuss. Considering the last few pages, that shouldn't be too hard.
Moltres truly has issues, but has the same typing as Charizard and doesn't take up a mega slot...that's about all I can say. Defensively, Zapdos is one of the best I've personally faced against (Pressure goes well, too). SubRoost is one of the best sets on it and is much like Kyurem in terms of Stealth Rock weak and Roost for healing (which the former isn't too much of an issue anyways thanks to Excadrill's mere existence and people foolishly using Defog on a team that prefers Rapid Spin).
Also, am I the only person using Leftovers on Trevenant with Rest as one of the moveslots (Natural Cure is the ability). I might test a ResTalk set on Trevenant since they're relatively rare--at least from my experience.
No.
Rapid Spin and Defog both have upsides and downsides, and neither is absolutely better than the other. There are three factors that you have to take into account when choosing which to use on a given team:
1. How desperately you need hazards gone - Defog is more reliable at removing hazards than Rapid Spin. This only really applies in very extreme cases such as flying spam and maybe volt-turn. In all other cases, you're safe enough with Rapid Spin given that almost no one bothers to actively spinblock (and most spinners can beat some spinblockers).
2. How dependent you are on your own hazards. This mostly applies to very offensive teams that don't want to waste free turns setting up Stealth Rock after removing it with Defog.
3. Which hazard remover fits best on your team. The balance of probability here favors Defog because there are more options, but either one could take the lead here.
So basically they're more or less balanced and it depends which one fits best on your team.
Dark Pulse is standard on Greninja, no? I rarely see them without the move. I think it's safe to say that Wobbuffet can't handle standard Greninja (not calling it a counter, just saying it works if the situation arises.)
Wobbuffet can actually be of use against Stall teams depending on what you bring him in on. You can actually use Encore and stay in to force opponents to lose PP, which greatly hurts many Stall teams (important as Wobbuffet fits best on slower teams anyway.) Wobbuffet gets 32 PP on both Counter and Mirror Coat, letting it screw around for a while if it needs to (it shouldn't really need to blow through that much of its PP anyway,) and if does happen to be running Safeguard over Destiny Bond it gets more PP from that too. It's not an optimal solution by a long shot, but it is by no means dead weight.
I think Wobbuffet is more or less as useful as he was last generation. Power creep hasn't honestly hit him too hard, especially with the relative rarity of Rain and Sun teams with their powered-up STAB moves. He still can't do anything to a few threats, but when you want something gone, in all likelihood he can get rid of it. He definitely isn't for every team, but on slower, bulkier teams he can really shine. I think B+ makes sense for Wobbuffet. Lower than that seems silly to me, though I wouldn't go too much farther than that either. He's a good support Pokemon, but needs help to get in on some things he wants to trap, and a wrong move can leave you at a disadvantage.
Mr. mime may only be good on Baton pass teams, but it is extremely good on baton pass teams that it is definitely mandatory.
why?
Soundproof means you are immune to perish song, which ruins baton pass team, Psychic- type is horrible on the defensive type, but with Fairy- type added, the combination is very good defensively.
Soundproof means you are immune to Roar, Fairy means you are immune to Dragon Tail, 2 things very common (Whirlwind is the least common) and totally destroy baton pass teams if you don't have a Mr. mime. (Dragon Tail is not tauntable and will ruin your Espeon)
It has access to a lot of support move such as Encore, Substitute, and can easily baton pass Calm Mind if you are physical invested, it does not have any mean of recovery, however, Espeon + Mr. mime is an extremely good core, maybe having Vaporeon for Acid Armor will be a delicious cherry over an already-delicious desert.
Mr. mime is no longer weak to Pursuit which is very important especially when dealing with slower pokemon such as Tyranitar and Scizor.
Baton passing teams aren't extremely great but when you pull it up right, you will definitely enjoy your game.
I think Mr. mime deserves C rank if you might.
Wobbuffet is a good pokemon and all, but, taunt ruins it, and taunt is pretty common this gen, it's vulnerable to all hazards, and that hurts it b/c it relies on HP and no it's defenses. Mirror Coat + Counter + Encore is great, but without any meanings of recovery, being a Psychic- type, and being incredibly weak to taunt, it doesn't deserve A-.
There are much more pokemons that carry taunt this gen, to add to that, Physical Aegislash will poop on this thing, along with Greninja spamming Dark Pulse, Mandibuzz, and stall teams wreck it, or any supporting pokemon. A positive thing is that massive HP and Encore.
I think Wobbuffet is good in B(+)
why?
Soundproof means you are immune to perish song, which ruins baton pass team, Psychic- type is horrible on the defensive type, but with Fairy- type added, the combination is very good defensively.
Soundproof means you are immune to Roar, Fairy means you are immune to Dragon Tail, 2 things very common (Whirlwind is the least common) and totally destroy baton pass teams if you don't have a Mr. mime. (Dragon Tail is not tauntable and will ruin your Espeon)
It has access to a lot of support move such as Encore, Substitute, and can easily baton pass Calm Mind if you are physical invested, it does not have any mean of recovery, however, Espeon + Mr. mime is an extremely good core, maybe having Vaporeon for Acid Armor will be a delicious cherry over an already-delicious desert.
Mr. mime is no longer weak to Pursuit which is very important especially when dealing with slower pokemon such as Tyranitar and Scizor.
Baton passing teams aren't extremely great but when you pull it up right, you will definitely enjoy your game.
I think Mr. mime deserves C rank if you might.
Wobbuffet is a good pokemon and all, but, taunt ruins it, and taunt is pretty common this gen, it's vulnerable to all hazards, and that hurts it b/c it relies on HP and no it's defenses. Mirror Coat + Counter + Encore is great, but without any meanings of recovery, being a Psychic- type, and being incredibly weak to taunt, it doesn't deserve A-.
There are much more pokemons that carry taunt this gen, to add to that, Physical Aegislash will poop on this thing, along with Greninja spamming Dark Pulse, Mandibuzz, and stall teams wreck it, or any supporting pokemon. A positive thing is that massive HP and Encore.
I think Wobbuffet is good in B(+)
I think it's important to mention that there are literally 3 decent spinners (excadrill, starmie, mega blastoise) all of which have their own flaws
Defog, on the other hand, has loads better distribution, with already great pokemon like latias and scizor further improving their support movepool. A defog user is simply easier to fit onto a team than a rapid spinner, and there are more than 3 good defoggers lol.
Well Dark Pulse is generally the 'safe' move for Greninja to use, but it is by no means mandatory, since moves like Extrasensory, Hidden Power, Spikes / Toxic Spikes, and what not could see use over it. U-turning into a Ghost does make for an equally effective response, I'll admit.
Most defensive teams have many ways to take advantage of Wobbufet, be it laying down hazards or inflicting it with status or Leech Seed, or they can just phase Wobbufet away: defensive Pokemon are very rarely concerned by Wobbufet in most circumstances, especially since Wobbufet cannot heal itself and is outslowed by damn near everything. Also how does Wobb fit better on slower teams? I always believed it was offensive teams that make use of an Encored opponent for free setup.
When I say power creep, I mean by the amount of things that 2HKO Wobbufet, and there are a lot. It may be able to do its job, but usually can only do so once (like Donphan, but let's not go further into that). You say you can PP stall some defensive Pokemon with Wobb, but you still can only do that once. This 'one-use' factor for most situations makes B+ seem like a very far stretch for Wobb, I almost think you'd have a better time with Whimsicott / Liepard for your Encoring and crippling duties, and they know Taunt too.
Forretress definitely needs to go. Setting up spikes is not as reliable as it used to be, and forry has no way to beat Aegislash, and in fact lets him set up all day if he so chooses. In fact, forretress is setup bait for so many things this gen its not even funny. Just drop it.
Regarding Dark Pulse, I know there are other options that could go over it. I'm not arguing that it's mandatory, I'm just saying that it's standard. Let's just say I wouldn't switch my Wobbuffet into a Greninja.
The thing about this power creep is that it doesn't really change Wobb. More things 2HKO him, but only by virtue of there being more things in general. For that matter, there have always been a lot of things that 2HKO him. What's important is either finding what doesn't or, if you lack a good option there, just getting Wobb in generally unscathed. A slow U-Turn or Volt Switch does this pretty well (one reason why Wobb fits better onto slower teams.) Yeah, he'll be crippled after, but the primary difference between him and something like Donphan is what he accomplishes with that one job. Rapid Spinners and Defoggers need to be able to do it more than once to be really effective. If you trap and KO an important target with Wobb, you are much closer to winning than if you got SR off the field once, even on a team that hates SR. I'd liken it more to Mega Gengar (despite the crazy discrepancies in effectiveness.) M-Gengar only needed to take out one target so its teammates could sweep. The difference between MGar and Wobb is that Wobb cannot tailor itself to beat everything, and thus is much less effective (not that that's saying much, since MGar is crazy effective.)
It's important to understand that slow teams can also be offensive teams. That's the entire premise of Bulky Offense. It's on these teams that Wobbuffet thrives (or Balanced.) Slower teams often have slow VoltSwitchers like Rotom-W or Scizor that can help get Wobbuffet in safely. Wobbuffet also benefits greatly from Wish Passers and Clerics, which are more common on slower teams. In addition, Wobbuffet excels at taking out Choice Item users since it takes literally zero prediction to beat them (though there generally aren't as many of those as in past generations, due to better revenge killers popping up.) If you want a trapper for a Hyper Offense team, you'll probably want Gothitelle instead. Stall teams generally don't have a need for trappers, as I believe you understand. It's Bulky Offense and Balance that benefit from Wobb.
One last thing; Whimsicott and Liepard are in no way comparable to Wobbuffet. Shadow Tag makes all the difference. With this ability, Wobb forces the opponent to use the Encored move at least once, letting him react accordingly. You literally take away all decision-making from your opponent. Yeah, those Pranksters get Encore too, but you can still switch out of it. A good double-switch can ensure your opponent doesn't get the same set-up opportunity Wobb can provide, or at least keep you from spamming some ineffective move. The Wobb player is totally in control of the situation once that Encore is off. They can Tickle a wall until it's weak enough to be KO'd by Pursuit, CounterCoat something more offensive to death or just switch to something that can set up.
The thing about Wobb is, you either use it to respond to threats with CounterCoat / Destiny Bond or you use it to create setup opportunities with Encore / Tickle. Very rarely do you actually get the chance to do both, unless you build your team around Wobb a little (with your Wish passing), but that slightly defeats the purpose already since Wobbufet is supposed to be the one providing support. It needs support to exclusively provide team support? How counter-intuitive is that? Also, it is pretty relevant when I said more things 2HKO Wobb, especially when they can stat boost: Do you Encore them and risk a direct attack, or do you prep the CounterCoat only for them to gear up and OHKO you afterward? Wobb does excel at eliminating Choiced attackers, especially Scarfers so that's props for it, though you said yourself that Choiced attackers are less prevelant so that would affect Wobb's viability in turn.
I always believed it was Bulky Offense / Balance that Gothitelle thrives on, while Wobb benefiting Hyper Offense, instead of the other way around as you put it. Bulky Offense likes Gothitelle's ability to choose between KOing problematic threats or neutering them with Trick, while HO just want Wobb's ability to provide a free turn of setup / easily KO one certain threat to start demolishing teams. Tickle Wobb is especially beneficial for HO (moreso than Bulky Offense) for even easier setup.
I listed Whimsi / Liepard since they can somewhat replicate Wobbufet's Shadow Tag Encore with their Prankster Encore + U-turn combo, though I'll admit that is where the similarities end (I was probably too fixated on Encore's utility I forgot Wobbufet's other qualities), since Whimsi / Liepard aim to discourage an opponent's setup while Wobb capitalizes on it.
I have one major issue with Wobbuffet on HO: it occupies a teamslot whilst providing little offensive or defensive utility.
I am not trying to say that Wobbuffet is worthless by any means, but on a HO team, I'd really rather just add another attacker most of the time. Your typical Deoxys-S/D HO wishes it could have even more teamslots; if you're using a Pokemon like Charizard, Pinsir, or Talonflame (near always), you need Excadrill (or Starmie I guess). You pretty much need Aegislash because it's just too damn good. You have your offensive Mega (Charizard, Pinsir, or Lucario will be found on a standard-ish team, but there are others that make appearances). You might not be running a spinner, but still: you have only three teamslots with Deoxys, Aegislash, and your Mega. Chances are you will be running a spinner, but even if you aren't -- Bisharp is competing for a teamslot, Thundurus (that priority TWave) is competing for a teamslot, Greninja is competing for a teamslot...a million things are competing for HO teamslots, and Wobbuffet just doesn't fit in. It doesn't provide a good defensive pivot. It can't sweep. Sure, it can create setup opportunities OR revenge kill one opposing threat, but that's not enough of a niche to secure a teamslot; if your team is fucked by Keldeo, is Wobbuffet really gonna stop that you have to sac a Pokemon or basically make a 50/50 play every time Keldeo comes in? Hell no. Will a Pokemon like Latios help? Will Thundurus, with its priority TWave, help? Of course these things will, but Wobbuffet does not provide this utility in any way.
I just talked a lot about Deoxys HO, and teambuilding for them, but obviously that isn't every HO team out there. The point I'm trying to get across is that HO needs all the teamslots it can get. I don't think that Wobbuffet realistically fits into this for most HO teams. It can provide setup opportunities, yes, but it forces a sac on your end to even get in. And once it's done its job the first time, it rarely gets another chance. Were it not for these factors, we'd all be running Wobbuffet, but it's just not all peachy like that for it.
C+ for its trapping niche, I suppose, but it really isn't 'for HO teams' as Punchshroom is stating. I honestly feel like in the end it does more harm than good. This is just from my experiences during the time I had tested it; I would rather have a more useful overall attacker in its place.
I am not trying to say that Wobbuffet is worthless by any means, but on a HO team, I'd really rather just add another attacker most of the time. Your typical Deoxys-S/D HO wishes it could have even more teamslots; if you're using a Pokemon like Charizard, Pinsir, or Talonflame (near always), you need Excadrill (or Starmie I guess). You pretty much need Aegislash because it's just too damn good. You have your offensive Mega (Charizard, Pinsir, or Lucario will be found on a standard-ish team, but there are others that make appearances). You might not be running a spinner, but still: you have only three teamslots with Deoxys, Aegislash, and your Mega. Chances are you will be running a spinner, but even if you aren't -- Bisharp is competing for a teamslot, Thundurus (that priority TWave) is competing for a teamslot, Greninja is competing for a teamslot...a million things are competing for HO teamslots, and Wobbuffet just doesn't fit in. It doesn't provide a good defensive pivot. It can't sweep. Sure, it can create setup opportunities OR revenge kill one opposing threat, but that's not enough of a niche to secure a teamslot; if your team is fucked by Keldeo, is Wobbuffet really gonna stop that you have to sac a Pokemon or basically make a 50/50 play every time Keldeo comes in? Hell no. Will a Pokemon like Latios help? Will Thundurus, with its priority TWave, help? Of course these things will, but Wobbuffet does not provide this utility in any way.
I just talked a lot about Deoxys HO, and teambuilding for them, but obviously that isn't every HO team out there. The point I'm trying to get across is that HO needs all the teamslots it can get. I don't think that Wobbuffet realistically fits into this for most HO teams. It can provide setup opportunities, yes, but it forces a sac on your end to even get in. And once it's done its job the first time, it rarely gets another chance. Were it not for these factors, we'd all be running Wobbuffet, but it's just not all peachy like that for it.
C+ for its trapping niche, I suppose, but it really isn't 'for HO teams' as Punchshroom is stating. I honestly feel like in the end it does more harm than good. This is just from my experiences during the time I had tested it; I would rather have a more useful overall attacker in its place.
It's not that Wobb needs Wish or Cleric support, he just benefits from it. That kind of support is more likely to be found on slower teams and generally helps support other Pokemon as well (if not moreso than it benefits Wobb.) In this case, Wobb is just another beneficiary of the support of another teammate.
Even if you only get to take out one target with Wobb or created one important setup opportunity, that's still enough for it to have done its part. If Wobb takes out an important target (as should be the case, because if you're aiming for unimportant stuff or not building teams that benefit from Wobb support then what the hell,) you can then proceed to steamroll the opponent with a powerful sweeper or cleaner. If he creates a setup opportunity for something powerful, you can likely win the game then and there (or at least take out a huge portion of the opponent's team.) Again, it's like MGengar. It needs to do its job once to work.
I'll concede that with more things being able to 2HKO it, Wobb is in a tougher spot. You certainly don't want to send Wobb in on something that can 2HKO or set up in its face unless you absolutely have to; it's like a coin clip for both parties (you could argue that using a setup move is better for the potential sweeper since it has a higher reward if they get away with it, but then it's better for Wobb to Encore, and so on and so forth.) It's not like there aren't other big threats you can take out with him, though. Assault Vest users immediately come to mind. Non-setup mons like most spinners, all-out attackers, some Choice users (especially if they're already locked into something,) most wallbreakers... really there are a lot of things that I could list here.
The things that Wobb excels at dealing with are generally things HO has fewer problems with, which is why I believe it's best on bulkier teams. Hyper Offense teams, like Jukain said, prefer more attackers, so if they're gonna bother with a trapper, Gothitelle is likely more in line with their needs. Teams that take longer to operate give Wobbuffet more chances to do its thing. Hyper Offense wants things done quickly, whereas Bulky Offense and Balance are more Wobbuffet's pace.
While I'm ready to change my nomination, C+ doesn't fit Wobb in my opinion. Its flaws aren't so crippling that Wobb can't do its job consistently. It's biggest deal is that it can end up being setup bait for sweepers, but that's normal for B-Rank support Pokemon. B or B- seems more than reasonable, given arguments by Punchshroom and Jukain.
Well, perhaps you have never face the pressure of Bisharp on the right hand, not something you want toy around at all. On the other hand, there are altogether 4 spinblockers in the meta (Aegislash, Gengar, Sableye, Trevenant). And when we look at the five major spinners in OU (Excadrill, Donphan, Starmie, Tentacruel, Forretress), the match ups are not particular difficult honestly(except for that stupid Forretress), Sableye is a bit difficult but most teams may not want it being severely damaged on the switch in, and don't usuablly use it as a spinblocker anyway.
On the other hand, there still exist teams that don't have particular good solution towards the bunch of SR weak besides Rotom-W (which does not even wall ZardY), if you don't want your Rotom-W loading up tons of pressure and get destroyed so quickly, defog can be very lame to pull off. In fact, the major purpose of having a spinner is to protect your own hazard, not to remove the one on the opposite side. Because for the one on your own side, well, your opponent may just do it for you with their defog.
Besides, we don't really has that much good defogger in the meta either. The defog distribution is nice, but correct me if I am wrong, by far it seems that only Mandibuzz and to a less extent Togekiss manage to overcome the SR weakness and defog in a constant manner, and the like of Scizor/Skamory/Gliscor are all facing 4mss. The eon duo are indeed useful though, especially Latias, which is now my go-to defogger.
Wobbufet is the kind of Pokemon that doesn't get better; it adapts to the metagame around it. Wobbufet already occupies a niche only it can fulfill, but is it in high demand? There are reasons why Talonflame is so damn common, while Smeargle and Wobbufet not so much. Are there more Pokemon it can safely trap, more Pokemon to benefit from its support, more opponents that easily do away with Wobbufet....these are all what affects Wobbufet's rank. I find that potential teammates and enemies for Wobb go hand in hand: usually the Pokemon that can become very dangerous with one free turn of setup are also the ones capable of overwhelming Wobbufet, so they don't often work in favor in terms of judging Wobb's ranking.
However, Wobbufet is woefully prone to residual damage which can bypass CounterCoat (mostly status), it lacks any recovery, and its typing is absolute garbage since it provides minimal resists which would make it easier to Encore opponents. If you want to be truly effective at your job, you'll have to be able to do it more than once: no one wants a Talonflame that revenges only one opponent (ironically, this happens in the hands of most inexperienced players). Even Smeargle can at least lay down Sticky Web and Spore / Dark Void an opponent with some consistency (guess the key word).
I agree with Jukain on its C+ ranking, but B- is the most I'd shoot for since that was its ranking in BW OU.
Wobb has two jobs it can do at once: Encore to let a teammate setup, or CounterCoat an opponent to death. More often than not, Wobb will be too damaged beyond repair by doing one job to effectively do the other. I mean, the fact that Wobb at least has options to respond to scenarios, but won't being forced to choose between the two instead of doing both reliably affect its ranking?
I don't know how you've used Wobbufet to suggest it is easy setup bait for sweepers: the whole point of Shadow Tag Encore is to turn the opponent's setup sweepers into the setup bait. That is one of Wobbufet's biggest selling points.
However, Wobbufet is woefully prone to residual damage which can bypass CounterCoat (mostly status), it lacks any recovery, and its typing is absolute garbage since it provides minimal resists which would make it easier to Encore opponents. If you want to be truly effective at your job, you'll have to be able to do it more than once: no one wants a Talonflame that revenges only one opponent (ironically, this happens in the hands of most inexperienced players). Even Smeargle can at least lay down Sticky Web and Spore / Dark Void an opponent with some consistency (guess the key word).
I agree with Jukain on its C+ ranking, but B- is the most I'd shoot for since that was its ranking in BW OU.
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Hmm, I have yet to see the legendary birds in OU play, but I want to. Anybody have an idea where I can few SPL replays? I assume only top notch players battle there from the way everybody talks about it.
Also, as for trevenant, harvest is an arguably better ability than natural cure.
Natural cure means you may have to switch out at a time you don't want to (spinblocking, burning a set up sweeper, planting those essential leech seeds)
Granted, its 50% outside the sun, but rest lum harvest or sitrus harvest is generally reliable, and provides superior recovery to lefties rest with natural cure
Two nomination that I want to make to A+:
1) Mega Pinsir S >> A+: Why? Because it has a nice amount of counters to his standard set, like Zapdos, Aerodactyl, Thundurus-I; Thundurus-T, Skarmory, it has various checks like Talonflame, Mega Charizard X, Dragonite, Mandibuzz, Landorus-T, Bulky Mega Gyarados, Bulky/Scarf Togekiss, Intimidate Salamence, Slowbro, Mega Aggron, Solid Rock Rhyperior, which mainly are OU viable.
Also it's one dimensional, you almost know 80% the set it's going to use SD/Return/Quick Attack/Earthquake, and if uit replaces one of the options misses coverage/priority/power.
2) Dragonite A >> A+: Multiscale is as good as Gen V (even better with Defog that reduces the usage of entry hazards), can use a myriad of sets (w/ Multiscale), sets that the only thing in common are the Dragon STAB, (DD Offensive, DD Defensive, Defensive Nite, Choice Nite, MixNite, Special, Pseudo-Hazer, Annoyer) and you don't know the set until it appears (well, some are more common than others).
1) Mega Pinsir S >> A+: Why? Because it has a nice amount of counters to his standard set, like Zapdos, Aerodactyl, Thundurus-I; Thundurus-T, Skarmory, it has various checks like Talonflame, Mega Charizard X, Dragonite, Mandibuzz, Landorus-T, Bulky Mega Gyarados, Bulky/Scarf Togekiss, Intimidate Salamence, Slowbro, Mega Aggron, Solid Rock Rhyperior, which mainly are OU viable.
Also it's one dimensional, you almost know 80% the set it's going to use SD/Return/Quick Attack/Earthquake, and if uit replaces one of the options misses coverage/priority/power.
2) Dragonite A >> A+: Multiscale is as good as Gen V (even better with Defog that reduces the usage of entry hazards), can use a myriad of sets (w/ Multiscale), sets that the only thing in common are the Dragon STAB, (DD Offensive, DD Defensive, Defensive Nite, Choice Nite, MixNite, Special, Pseudo-Hazer, Annoyer) and you don't know the set until it appears (well, some are more common than others).
Zapdos loses if it switches into rocks and isn't pd, still loses if it takes any residual
Aero (trash anyway) is 2hkoed by return + rocks + quick attack
Thundy I ^ same as aero! although gets to twave
Thundy t loses if not scarf, if scarf same as aero
Skarm wins if it's> 50 pct, the one true counter
Talonflame only checks if it's faster or rocks aren't down, a strong check
Zard x isn't a check at all
Scale nite is but scale nite checks like everything, and I think non cb loses cuz of pinsir's natural high bulk
Lando t can't switch in to sd with any residual, scarf can kinda rk
Gyardos can switch in
Bulky togekiss can't switch in, scarf togekiss doesn't exist, can't switch in, and takes a shitton from +2 quick attack
Intimidate menace can't switch in
Slow bro can't switchin
Mega aggron barely exists and needs stone edge to win, very good check, although super easy to wear down cuz no recover
Rhyperior is a great check
So in summary, we have 1 great counter with recovery(skarm) to pretty good counters (zapdos and rotom), who you forgot to mention but is the must used pinsir check, two good defensive checks in mega aggron and rhyperior, and a couple of rkers like thundy I, talonflame, scarf mons who can't switch in. It also has a much easier time setting up then say our jackal looking friend because if it's high bulk. S rank ezzzz
Scizor doesn't face 4mss lol BP/u-turn/roost/defog makes a perfectly respectable defogger and this set has been used in the SPL too, (week 4)
Gliscor, I agree, it doesn't really like losing poison heal for defog, but its one of the only defoggers that can actually take on bisharp somewhat, so he's still good. A set of defog/roost/eq/filler does fine, with filler being taunt, toxic, or a bunch of other stuff.
Skarmory doesn't appreciate +2 knock off the first time, but after that, I'm pretty sure it does less than 50%, so skarm can take on bisharp too. Roost/defog/whirlwind/ and taunt or bb, preference really. These guys get the job done well and don't really face 4mss in any way.
Also, I've been seeing hp fighting latias becoming a thing on the defogger set, so that has to be taken into account as well before you just click knock off with bisharp.
And once again, we have plenty of decent defoggers in the tier, like mandibuzz, zapdos, scizor, skarmory, lat@s, even empoleon isn't that bad.
The match-ups of these guys against bisharp aren't terrible either, scizor can just u-turn out, roost the damage later, zapdos heat waves, bisharp can't break through skarm, but mandibuzz and lati@s are a problem :/
This is all ignoring the fact that overall, pokemon with access to defog are just better than pokemon with access to rapid spin. It's not easy to fit an excadrill or a starmie in, but its much easier to just smack a zapdos or a scizor on a team and go at it with relative success.
The two Pokemon that are blacklisted are outclassed by other Pokemon who can do a better job at fulfilling their role. Florges is 100% outclassed by Sylveon, and Arcanine is pretty bad and faces a ton of competition from Entei.
Mr. Mime's analysis has little to nothing to do with this thread. Besides, it's getting one based on its niche on Baton Pass teams, so even if we did rank it here, because that niche is such a small and minor one in OU, it'd probably be D-rank anyways.
Dunno if I'd even call Mandibuzz a problem. It can easily live any hit from +2 Bisharp and smack it with Foul Play.
+2 0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 165-195 (60.8 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And if they SD as you Foul Play:
+4 0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 248-292 (91.5 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Bisharp definitely fucks with Defog users, but it's not like using Defog against a Bisharp is instantly game over for the Defog user. You also have to keep in mind that a well-built team using something with Defog will have something to handle Bisharp. Usually, this means a faster Fighting-type such as Keldeo, but this can even extend to your own Jolly Bisharp with Low Kick. Teams with Defog need to account for Bisharp, just like how teams with Starmie need to account for Aegislash and teams with Excadrill need to account for Gourgeist.
While this is mostly true (although I never seem to have that much trouble dumping an Excadrill or Starmie on my team - maybe because I play pretty offensively), that does not actually make Defog better than Rapid Spin - it just makes it better distributed. The moves themselves are still just about equal, Rapid Spin just has awful distribution while Defog has huge distribution.
Just a minor nitpick too - isn't one of the biggest perks of Mandibuzz the fact that it DOES beat Bisharp?
+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 378-446 (89.1 - 105.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+4 4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 248-292 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Bisharp can guarantee an OHKO after SR at +4 with Life Orb, but Mandibuzz's attack combined with recoil means it only has a 1/8 chance to live.
+4 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 291-343 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
If using a different item, like BlackGlasses, Bisharp only has a 50% chance to OHKO.
+4 252+ Atk Muscle Band Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 321-378 (75.7 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Not sure how common a Muscle Band is on it, but it or a Steel Plate can ensure the OHKO as well.
It runs Life Orb or Dread Plate/Blackglasses.
And Bisharp isn't getting off a +4 Iron Head on Mandibuzz anyways unless you choose to sacrifice it because it is switching into you, not the other way around. That means that it needs to go for the Swords Dance as you get off the +4 Foul Play against it, leaving it with, at most, 11.2%, but that's almost always going to be less than 10%, meaning that Life Orb recoil will almost always kill it in the process. If it's running Blackglasses, +4 Iron Head doesn't KO Mandibuzz. You get to choose what it's going to hit with +4 Iron Head.
And Bisharp isn't getting off a +4 Iron Head on Mandibuzz anyways unless you choose to sacrifice it because it is switching into you, not the other way around. That means that it needs to go for the Swords Dance as you get off the +4 Foul Play against it, leaving it with, at most, 11.2%, but that's almost always going to be less than 10%, meaning that Life Orb recoil will almost always kill it in the process. If it's running Blackglasses, +4 Iron Head doesn't KO Mandibuzz. You get to choose what it's going to hit with +4 Iron Head.
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