Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Laurel]

We have things with a 4x SR weakness in a A+ so Defog support alone doesn't justify dropping it to A-.
Also Kyurem-B is not just an anti-stall pokemon since nothing else even comes close to its ability to set up on and destroy extremely common and high-rank pokemon such as Rotom-W and Mega Venusaur, which are found in balanced and even offensive teams as well.
Kyurem-B isn't slower than Lucario before it mega evolves and in fact Lucario will always lose against Kyu-B 1 on 1 if Kyu-B is already out (it is very unlikely that Lucario will switch out after mega evolving).

In short Kyurem-B has a clearly defined niche in this metagame, no real counters and overwhelming power, meaning it should be A+ rank.

Woah woah youre missing the mark it looks like the only thing in my post you read was "SR weak" that is just one small knock. Talonflame, and Zard-X, and Y are not even on the same level. First of all Zard-X can sweep stall and offense by itself and nothing but Chansey with max health, Dragonite, and Latias can switch into Zard-Y. The only reason they are not S is because they cannot be slapped onto teams because of the SR weak.

"Nothing comes close" if you are going to argue that nothing comes close how is it better than Mega Lucario which hits 355 speed, and Zard-X, Zard-Y, and Mega Pinsir. Kyurem-B is a good stall breaker but it cant compete with Mega Heracross ever. (no idea why it is B rank)

Also please explain how Kyurem-B takes a vacuum wave from mega lucario. Also, youre saying nobody would switch Mega Lucario out on Aegislash... "Oh lets just sack my best sweeper" probably the worst argument I've heard since Sableye for B rank. Defog support is enough to drop Zard-X, Zard-Y, and Talonflame. Anyways, its not just defog support I said unlike those 3 it doesnt resist earthquake, and uturn, it has problems switching in on offense and is sometimes deadweight vs HO.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Are we going to establish an A- ranking. I think that Kyurem-B deserves this rank. While Kyurem-B has an overwhelming attack stat, and movepool, it is not A Rank easy to fit it into teams. It is weak to all forms of hazards and takes 25% from SR, so Defog is needed. In addition, it is weak to fighting, steel, fairy, rock, and dragon, four are more of the common attacking moves in the game.

It does destroy stall that is not a joke, but its speed stat is sort of underwhelming 95, which is slower than most common sweepers right now... Lucario, Terrakion, Keldeo, Genesect can all OHKO back with super effective moves.

I'll add more if there are people who agree with me, but I just don't think Kyurem-B is that easy to fit as other A rankers such as Deo-D, Scizor, and Conkeldurr.

One of your main points seems to be that you can't just stick Kyube on a team. This is just wrong. Sub + 3 attacks or LO 4 attacks will be good practically anywhere except full stall (where Kyube can run an annoying sub + dragon tail set). It's this simple: Put kyube on your team, bring it out against something that can't OHKO it (a lot of things - look at those defenses), and smash something with Dragon Claw. Easy.

EDIT: also, this is how it takes a vacuum wave:
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 204-240 (52 - 61.2%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Oh absolutely. I'm not doubting its effectiveness, it's still one of the best, if not the best, suicide leads in the game. Although the suicide lead playstyle is not as good as it was, Deoxys-S still packs immediate pressure and takes advantage of that well. I agree that this makes it a top A threat.



I agree with you that Deoxys-S is bar none one of the best revenge killers available, but I'm still not entirely convinced that it's good to the extent of sitting in S-rank. With its blazing Speed, running Life Orb does make up for its average attacking stats; however, oftentimes, it isn't quite enough to do the job unless the opposition is severely weakened. Furthermore, the fact that it often has to blow something up with Psycho Boost, thus causing its offensive capabilities to go down the pooper and being forced to switch out, keeps it in check in my opinion. As I said before, Deoxys-S doesn't get too many switch-in opportunities barring Volturn and double switch predictions.



I was considering ExtremeSpeed Genesect (does 55%+) when I said that since I realize Deoxys-S is faster. Even though some priority doesn't actually OHKO Deoxys-S, the fact that Stealth Rock damage + LO recoil + 50% priority damage = ~70% damage is a big deal and definitely reduces Deoxys-S's longevity, especially if it was brought in earlier to revenge kill something or what have you. Also, that was a really mediocre list of threats I pulled out, there are still others, such as Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Dragonite (who has Multiscale), Bisharp, and Azumarill, among whatever else exists. You also can't forget if Deoxys-S used Superpower beforehand, it's that much more vulnerable to the vast amount of priority in the tier. Also, Prankster users such as Sableye, Klefki, and Thundurus can cripple it pretty easily. You can even do some Intimidate tactics to weaken its Superpower/Fire Punch so something such as Tyranitar and Scizor aren't OHKOed. It's not just revenge killers either that end/weaken Deoxys-S, there are threats that can simply survive its attacks and hit back hard. For example, standard 112 Atk/160 SpA Deoxys-S does 60% at best with Ice Beam against 0/0 Latias, Goodra takes pathetic damage from mostly everything, 0/0 Kyurem-B isn't even OHKOed by Psycho Boost with Stealth Rock, 0/0 Gyarados has a super good chance at living Psycho Boost after Stealth Rock, Mega Gyarados isn't OHKOed by Superpower, etc. I mean, I can go through a bunch more here but I think you get the point I'm trying to make.

I know Deoxys-S is a phenomenal sweeper, I get that, but I feel like it has enough shortcomings to make it a workable threat and thus not deserving a spot in S-rank. It's not this standalone be-all-end-all kind of sweeper. It needs support.



I'm not sure why Mandibuzz and Starmie are the only Defog/Rapid Spin Pokemon that can switch into Deoxys-S. Suicide Deoxys-S only runs Fire Punch and sometimes Superpower. That means Pokemon such as Zapdos, Latias, Latios, Tentacruel, Skarmory, and Mew are more or less free to switch in. Obviously they can be Taunted, but that basically means you're only getting one hazard up against the likes of Zapdos, Skarmory (I think BB 2HKOes), and Lati@s if it's a 1 on 1.



I don't know why you're comparing offensive Deoxys-S to Defoggers. I'm pointing out that Defoggers are dealing with the suicide lead set; many of them can't deal with Deoxys-S's offensive set. I've already addressed why I think offensive Deoxys-S isn't S-rank material above.



Deoxys-S isn't that surprising. Sometimes it's blatantly obvious whether its a suicide lead or offensive sweeper based on team preview, what it switches in against, when it switches in, etc. I've never seen TrickScarf, so I'm going to assume it's nonexistent (that's actually by far one of the worst sets imo if people actually use that). Dual Screens is not that strong nowadays either, Defog can remove them from the field.


To reiterate, I'm not trying to underestimate Deoxys-S ability to fulfill two roles pretty effectively, because it does. I'm just saying the XY metagame has shaped up to carry many reasonable an effective responses to whatever set Deoxys-S tries to pull off. I'm still convinced that Deoxys-S needs to be moved down to A+, unless proven otherwise I guess.

Thank you for acknowledging just about everything I said. It seems like we agree on what Deoxys-S does and how good at its job it is, we just have different ideas of how much that's worth. I don't have time for a huge post, but here's my main point: I think you're focusing too much on its sweeping capabilities, while the main point of using the LO set is to revenge kill an amazing amount of stuff while still having the OPPORTUNITY to sweep if necessary.

 

[Laurel]

TooMuchSugar

I see both your points here. One that it has great defenses, two that it can run 20 sets. However, youre wrong about it switching in easy vs offense. With stealth rock im never switching it in on a Landorus-T it can take an Earthquake but most mons have Stone Edge to kill it or something SE. Other than vs stall and balance it has problems switching in on most popular offensive mons because base 95 speed just isnt fast enough. Also, how is dclaw going to reck everythin, hello Aegislash.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Wall

The only reason charizard inst S rank is because the mega formes are ranked separately lol. Stealth rocks arent keeping anything from rising up ranks. Talonflame, pinsir, thundurus, the aforementioned charizard are all A+, so i have no idea why you keep making a big deal out of it. You keep mentioning its speed as huge issue but the truth is, kyurem is a wallbreaker and 95 is already enough to outspeed even the fastest of tanks/walls. I dont really have any stance about kyurem's rank but none of your arguments are good enough reasons to drop it (specially when A- doesnt even exist...).

 

[RufflesPro]

Look there's no A- tier, so I think your argument is pointless, can we focus on pokemons that haven't been ranked yet or at least giving pokemon EXISTING ranks? Kyurem-B may not be A materia in your opinion, but also there's no sanity in saying he's B+.

I think a forgotten pokemon is Blissey, if Chansey is up in B+, why is Blissey rankless?

I also need to know why Quagsire is in C rank.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

TooMuchSugar

I see both your points here. One that it has great defenses, two that it can run 20 sets. However, youre wrong about it switching in easy vs offense. With stealth rock im never switching it in on a Landorus-T it can take an Earthquake but most mons have Stone Edge to kill it or something SE. Other than vs stall and balance it has problems switching in on most popular offensive mons because base 95 speed just isnt fast enough. Also, how is dclaw going to reck everythin, hello Aegislash.

I never said it could switch in on Landorus-T (don't do that unless you're carrying Ice Beam and you're POSITIVE that you outspeed it). I was exaggerating the power a bit, but not all that much - Dragon Claw followed by Earth Power is going to take a huge chunk out of Aegislash. It does struggle a little bit against offense, but not enough to drop it to A- (which does exist btw, there's just nothing in it right now).

 

[eddiefiv]

Look there's no A- tier, so I think your argument is pointless, can we focus on pokemons that haven't been ranked yet or at least giving pokemon EXISTING ranks? Kyurem-B may not be A materia in your opinion, but also there's no sanity in saying he's B+.

I think a forgotten pokemon is Blissey, if Chansey is up in B+, why is Blissey rankless?

I also need to know why Quagsire is in C rank.

What I've been saying.

I don't know why Quagsire is C; I've never personally used him or faced him.
I think Blissey should be above Chansey because Leftovers and higher Special Attack.

 

[Homeslice]

Laurel
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Freeze Shock vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 162-191 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If it makes you feel better:
252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Freeze Shock vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 140-165 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Freeze Shock vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 108-127 (33.6 - 39.5%) -- 20.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 184-218 (46.9 - 55.6%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 175-207 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Kyurem-B is faster so he wins 1v1 and in reality Kyurem-B probably never will be dealing with an Aegislash at full strength (or at all) anyways because a half-decent player automatically knows they need to weaken other steels so Kyurem-B can nuke anything. If you care that much there's Earth Power. Steels and Fairies are all that really slow it down. Anything but A-Rank for Kyurem-B is absurd.

Professional2341
Because no one noticed Blissey and reality Chansey > Blissey even in a game where Knock Off is rampant because having some physical bulk is way more helpful when the metagame is Genesect, Lucario, and Talonflame.
Quagsire is C because of Unaware. Boosts don't apply to it and it has a pretty good typing in where only Grass hits it for SE damage. He isn't higher because he's only relatively bulky on one side based on what you invest in and there's walls that have better natural bulk which is usually more helpful than something that can deal with a mon that didn't set up. Set-up sweepers are a particular weakness to Stall so he's also useful there.

 

[sidakarya]

To be honest, I've actually found Quagsire most of the time to be a worse Clefable. Quagsire is bulkier on the physical side, but only there, meaning that as an unaware user, its potential to full-stop set-up sweepers is less. It also has fewer useful resistances and a much shallower movepool.

 

[ryan]

I agree with Fuzznip on Deo-S. It's definitely a solid Pokemon, both offensively and in a supporting capacity, but it's not on the same level as the rest of S-rank to me. Offense has ways of handling Defoggers (Bisharp, Taunt Thundurus-I and other Taunt users), and Rapid Spin (Ghosts, keeping up offensive presence so as not to give the opposing spinner a free turn). On top of this, it can be advantageous to allow the opponent to remove your hazards if it means you get a free turn or two of setup. The opponent getting rid of hazards in exchange for the offense user getting ready to punch holes through their team is definitely a worthy trade-off. However, these strategies definitely aren't infallible. With such a wide variety of Rapid Spin and Defog users available in OU, it can be really difficult to keep up with them all.

Offensively, LO Deoxys-S is cool, and it's definitely a good Pokemon. But against anything but offense, it can be a bit underwhelming.

Again, Deoxys-S is a spectacular Pokemon, and it definitely deserves A+ rank. But I don't believe it's on the same level as the rest of S-rank.

 

[RufflesPro]

Laurel
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Freeze Shock vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 162-191 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If it makes you feel better:
252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Freeze Shock vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 140-165 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Freeze Shock vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 108-127 (33.6 - 39.5%) -- 20.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 184-218 (46.9 - 55.6%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 175-207 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Kyurem-B is faster so he wins 1v1 and in reality Kyurem-B probably never will be dealing with an Aegislash at full strength (or at all) anyways because a half-decent player automatically knows they need to weaken other steels so Kyurem-B can nuke anything. If you care that much there's Earth Power. Steels and Fairies are all that really slow it down. Anything but A-Rank for Kyurem-B is absurd.

Professional2341
Because no one noticed Blissey and reality Chansey > Blissey even in a game where Knock Off is rampant because having some physical bulk is way more helpful when the metagame is Genesect, Lucario, and Talonflame.
Quagsire is C because of Unaware. Boosts don't apply to it and it has a pretty good typing in where only Grass hits it for SE damage. He isn't higher because he's only relatively bulky on one side based on what you invest in and there's walls that have better natural bulk which is usually more helpful than something that can deal with a mon that didn't set up. Set-up sweepers are a particular weakness to Stall so he's also useful there.

I do see you point, but why isn't it B- at the very least? It's completely non-worthy of OU? Preposterous.

Thanks for clearing that up.

To be honest, I've actually found Quagsire most of the time to be a worse Clefable. Quagsire is bulkier on the physical side, but only there, meaning that as an unaware user, its potential to full-stop set-up sweepers is less. It also has fewer useful resistances and a much shallower movepool.

Clefable is better off with Magic Gaurd 8/10 times, thnx to SpA boost, both Stored power and Calm Mind set appreciate either LO or Leftovers. Unaware is OK using Stored power sets but you're hitting with absurd power it wouldn't matter as much as you think, and you are probably better off being immune to poison at that point.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I think Clefable is better off using Magic Guard instead of unaware, so by default Quagsire is a better user of Unaware. However, cosmic power + stored power + unaware is a good set for clefable. Also, I use quagsire as a SD Scizor counter, which Clefable cannot do. I use a physically bulky curse variant, which cannot be stopped by any physical attacker other than Lucario. Both Quagsire and Clefable has great abilities, move pools, typings, and stats that allow them to do their roles, but Clefable just has more roles it can fill. Regardless, I still think C is too low for Quaggy.

This logic if flawed. It doesnt matter if clefable prefers to use magic guard, the fact is that when it uses unaware its a better user of it than quagsire, end of story. You only use quagsire when you want to deal with the few things clefable cant (scizor and bisharp). Its a very niche and mediocre mon that is perfectly fine at C rank.

 

[sidakarya]

But Clefable isn't always better at unaware sets. If you want an unaware mon to counter all physical pokemon barring Lucario and grass types, and that can curse and swagger the opponent with any risk, use Quagsire. If you want a specially defensive unaware user that can counter every special attacker except for Lucario and Genesect, and can use calm mind or cosmic power to sweep, use Clefable. I think Clefable is overall a more viable pokemon because it can do two things while Quagsire can only do one, but that doesn't mean it's better at one of its jobs than Quagsire is; they're different.

Well...

• 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 189-223 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 283-334 (71.8 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Not exactly. Because Quagsire doesn't have those resistances to Dragon and Fighting, two very common physical-attacking types, checking them is not exactly guaranteed. And bear in mind also, that Quagsire has worse attacking moves. Just going by the Dragonite example:

• 0 SpA Quagsire Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 92-110 (28.3 - 33.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
• 4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 99-117 (30.5 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Because Dragonite can't Outrage, Clefable can outdamage its non-STAB Earthquake, and it's more damage anyway even discounting that fact.

Also note that Unaware Clefable doesn't have to use set-up moves. It can also be a cleric with Aromatherapy, solving the problem of being vulnerable to Toxic, while still stopping many set-up sweepers at once.

 

[Laurel]

Laurel
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Freeze Shock vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 162-191 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If it makes you feel better:
252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Freeze Shock vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 140-165 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Freeze Shock vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 108-127 (33.6 - 39.5%) -- 20.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 184-218 (46.9 - 55.6%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 175-207 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Kyurem-B is faster so he wins 1v1 and in reality Kyurem-B probably never will be dealing with an Aegislash at full strength (or at all) anyways because a half-decent player automatically knows they need to weaken other steels so Kyurem-B can nuke anything. If you care that much there's Earth Power. Steels and Fairies are all that really slow it down. Anything but A-Rank for Kyurem-B is absurd.

You are not answering my argument. I already cut that argument off at the head and agreed that Kyurem-B does murk stall. It was almost suspected at the end of Black/White 2 for a reason. It is a threat. However, I think these rankings should be based on the ability to be plugged into a team easily and work.

Okay Kyurem-B still murks stall, but doesn't Charizard-X, Charizard-Y, Mega Heracross, etc, do it even better? That's debatable, but my point is it has competition. My argument for dropping Kyurem-B is not to say it is not effective at destroying stall because it is, but you cannot plug it into a team easily. I'm sorry. Lets look at what kyurem-b can switch into on the usage statistics...

#1 Rotom-W, volt switch or WoW, however, sub versions can switch into Hydro and sub. (Requires a lot of prediction which should not be factored into usage stats because these are supposed to be "easy" to use)
#2 Talonflame, with rocks BB 2hko's and it can u-turn
#3 Lucario lol not switching in on this
#4 Genesect UTurns or hits it with Iron Head...
#5 Aegislash Flash Cannon kills after rocks
#6 Heatran Its not switching in on a lava plume even if its got earthpower
#7 Garchomp, its slower otherwise it can switch in on an SD
#8 Greninja uturn
#9 Scizor not switching in
#10 Excadrill not switching in

Do you see my point? It can't safely switch into any of the top 10 pokemon without some serious prediction skill. How is that a pokemon that deserves A-rank. There are tons of good stall breakers. The difference is those other ones, in my opinion, are much easier to use.

Yes Kyurem-B is a powerhouse, and yes it recks stall, but its too slow to switch into most offensive pokemon, and its weak to rock, steel, fighting, fairy, and dragon. Please, don't say something like "well zard is weak to rock" Charizard is also immune to earthquake and easily switches in on heatran, genesect, scizor, Zard-X can come in on Rotom. My main point is that kyurem-b is outclassed by other stall breakers with ease of use such as charizard.

 

[Homeslice]

You are not answering my argument. I already cut that argument off at the head and agreed that Kyurem-B does murk stall. It was almost suspected at the end of Black/White 2 for a reason. It is a threat. However, I think these rankings should be based on the ability to be plugged into a team easily and work.

Okay Kyurem-B still murks stall, but doesn't Charizard-X, Charizard-Y, Mega Heracross, etc, do it even better? That's debatable, but my point is it has competition. My argument for dropping Kyurem-B is not to say it is not effective at destroying stall because it is, but you cannot plug it into a team easily. I'm sorry. Lets look at what kyurem-b can switch into on the usage statistics...

#1 Rotom-W, volt switch or WoW, however, sub versions can switch into Hydro and sub. (Requires a lot of prediction which should not be factored into usage stats because these are supposed to be "easy" to use)
#2 Talonflame, with rocks BB 2hko's and it can u-turn
#3 Lucario lol not switching in on this
#4 Genesect UTurns or hits it with Iron Head...
#5 Aegislash Flash Cannon kills after rocks
#6 Heatran Its not switching in on a lava plume even if its got earthpower
#7 Garchomp, its slower otherwise it can switch in on an SD
#8 Greninja uturn
#9 Scizor not switching in
#10 Excadrill not switching in

Do you see my point? It can't safely switch into any of the top 10 pokemon without some serious prediction skill. How is that a pokemon that deserves A-rank. There are tons of good stall breakers. The difference is those other ones, in my opinion, are much easier to use.

Yes Kyurem-B is a powerhouse, and yes it recks stall, but its too slow to switch into most offensive pokemon, and its weak to rock, steel, fighting, fairy, and dragon. Please, don't say something like "well zard is weak to rock" Charizard is also immune to earthquake and easily switches in on heatran, genesect, scizor, Zard-X can come in on Rotom. My main point is that kyurem-b is outclassed by other stall breakers with ease of use such as charizard.

Alright, you can say it isn't easy to plug into a team all you want, you're wrong. You telling me who the top ten in usage statistics are doesn't mean anything. My opponent's Pokemon don't have anything to do with my team. How he matches up against the other team is a different story, but good luck having a team of the top 6 and expecting a flawless team. Speaking of the top six, you're arguing under the notion that Kyurem-B is supposed to be a counter to everything. Talonflame can't switch into Rotom-W, guess it better be B rank, right? No one ever claimed Kyurem-B to be a counter to any of these. That's not his job to counter anything. He's weak to common attacking types and that's the reason he's in OU coupled with his speed. Once Kyurem is safely in, look what he can do (these are all the usage sets considering you're so keen on usage)-
#1:
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 249-294 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You stay into burn and you're dead. Stay in to Volt Switch and you're probably dead.
#2:
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 388-458 (130.2 - 153.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 348-411 (116.7 - 137.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If he's already in and above ~60% he doesn't care how fast you are.
#3:
I'll give you this, but seriously who expects anything to threaten Lucario at this point, he's S rank for a reason
#4:
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 170-201 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 204-240 (52 - 61.2%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
He can Iron Head all he wants, and in reality Genesect is probably Choice locked in the first place. Him U-Turning is a bullcrap argument because that's what U-Turn is supposed to do, give you the upper hand. I can yell at you all I want that I can U-Turn out of something into a counter. That's U-Turn's job.
#5:
Previous post because I already made the point here. It's really a stalemate between the two and Aegislash probably wins through mindgames. But it isn't any Dragon's job to kill a Steel type, now is it?
#6:
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 140-165 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 118-141 (30.1 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
He can actually beat this Steel. Offensive Heatran loses the bulk it needs to beat Kyurem-B.
#7:
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 392-464 (100 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Okay, now Garchomp is locked into Outrage and you can easily revenge kill it. It still ends up being a high risk situation for the opponent.
#8:
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 244-288 (85.3 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
That's just Dragon Claw. You saying U-Turn is once again weak. He's slow, we know.
#9:
Another one I'll give you, but again, the whole point Kyurem-B is allowed in OU is that he's weak to common priority and attacking types.
#10:
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 199-234 (54.9 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 296-350 (75.5 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Cube outspeeds and wins.

It's also extremely unfair to assume either side will always be at full health, because Cube is just a nuke. He's doing ~50% to Steels with Outrage (with leftovers) so when they switch in they're losing so much health that he can sometimes afford to switch in. Not really sure what you're trying to prove with Charizard-X, considering they both are weak to common attacking types but Charizard is weaker, frailer, albeit faster. In fact, I can argue all I want all your points can also easily apply to Charizard-X so he should be B-Rank too. All the things you said he can come in on can use the same argument, they'll just U-Turn or Volt Switch out and Cube can in fact come in on Heatran. You're not using Cube in the right context (if you've ever even used him at all)/ No one is or ever will claim these guys counter anything because that's not their job. No one is telling you Talonflame sucks because it doesn't hard counter Tyranitar and Rotom-W. That's not their job, don't act like it's their job. His job is to leave huge dents in anything that tries to touch it and that's exactly what he does.

 

[Pipotchi]

I'm kinda surprised theres no placement for Thundurus-T, Celebi, Vaporeon, Volcarona... seems weird that Kabutops is on the list but not these guys. I know Vaporeon and Thundurus-T have competition this gen but they aren't fully outclassed, and being OU last gen we should at least talk about them? Thundurus-T works similar to mega manectric but doesnt take a mega-slot. He also has the option of two good abilities, with Defiant getting better this gen due to defog. Being electric type and very fast, he should be able to beat a lot of flying defoggers too with Hp Ice, Thunderbolt, Superpower, and U-Turn. Hp ice destroys gliscor, thunderbolt deals with most flying types, u-turn will ohko latias- doesn't seem like a bad pokemon this gen at all. He's different from thundurus-I too, albiet perhaps worse as a sweeper. He has more longevity than thundurus though, being able to switch into the many volt switchers in the game (i feel like voltturn has become more popiular this gen?) and heal up.

Celebi I feel got better this gen, which grass becoming a stronger offensive typing (especially due to the increase in rotom-w), and psychic actually gaining some offensive merit being able to deal with mega-venusaur. Also being immune to spore, having unique typing in OU and a great ability, as well as huge versatility I feel like Celebi is at least a B+ tier pokemon despite its shortcomings- it has the same issues with its psychic typing as last gen but even more now, but he comes forward as a premier counter to rotom-W, as well as being a decent check to mega lucario and mega venusaur.

Vaporeon got competition from Sylveon this gen, but has better mixed bulk and much larger wishes. He also has immunity to water type moves and still has the same great special bulk, able to take genesect's thunderbolt and still have over half its hp left. Whats more, Vaporeon has the ability to cover its weaker physical defense with Scald burns. I'm not saying vaporeon is better than Sylveon, but I still think Vaporeon is good.

Volcarona has been seeing some discussion recently so I wont bother going into detail about him, because I also don't use him much, but the ability to defog hazards has surely just made him better than last gen.

I'm interested to see what you guys feel about these 4 pokemon, especially Celebi.

 

[Laurel]

Alright, you can say it isn't easy to plug into a team all you want, you're wrong. You telling me who the top ten in usage statistics are doesn't mean anything. My opponent's Pokemon don't have anything to do with my team. How he matches up against the other team is a different story, but good luck having a team of the top 6 and expecting a flawless team. Speaking of the top six, you're arguing under the notion that Kyurem-B is supposed to be a counter to everything. Talonflame can't switch into Rotom-W, guess it better be B rank, right? No one ever claimed Kyurem-B to be a counter to any of these. That's not his job to counter anything. He's weak to common attacking types and that's the reason he's in OU coupled with his speed. Once Kyurem is safely in, look what he can do (these are all the usage sets considering you're so keen on usage)-
#1:
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 249-294 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You stay into burn and you're dead. Stay in to Volt Switch and you're probably dead.
#2:
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 388-458 (130.2 - 153.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 348-411 (116.7 - 137.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If he's already in and above ~60% he doesn't care how fast you are.
#3:
I'll give you this, but seriously who expects anything to threaten Lucario at this point, he's S rank for a reason
#4:
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 170-201 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 204-240 (52 - 61.2%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
He can Iron Head all he wants, and in reality Genesect is probably Choice locked in the first place. Him U-Turning is a bullcrap argument because that's what U-Turn is supposed to do, give you the upper hand. I can yell at you all I want that I can U-Turn out of something into a counter. That's U-Turn's job.
#5:
Previous post because I already made the point here. It's really a stalemate between the two and Aegislash probably wins through mindgames. But it isn't any Dragon's job to kill a Steel type, now is it?
#6:
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 140-165 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 118-141 (30.1 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
He can actually beat this Steel. Offensive Heatran loses the bulk it needs to beat Kyurem-B.
#7:
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 392-464 (100 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Okay, now Garchomp is locked into Outrage and you can easily revenge kill it. It still ends up being a high risk situation for the opponent.
#8:
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 244-288 (85.3 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
That's just Dragon Claw. You saying U-Turn is once again weak. He's slow, we know.
#9:
Another one I'll give you, but again, the whole point Kyurem-B is allowed in OU is that he's weak to common priority and attacking types.
#10:
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 199-234 (54.9 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 296-350 (75.5 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Cube outspeeds and wins.

It's also extremely unfair to assume either side will always be at full health, because Cube is just a nuke. He's doing ~50% to Steels with Outrage (with leftovers) so when they switch in they're losing so much health that he can sometimes afford to switch in. Not really sure what you're trying to prove with Charizard-X, considering they both are weak to common attacking types but Charizard is weaker, frailer, albeit faster. In fact, I can argue all I want all your points can also easily apply to Charizard-X so he should be B-Rank too. All the things you said he can come in on can use the same argument, they'll just U-Turn or Volt Switch out and Cube can in fact come in on Heatran. You're not using Cube in the right context (if you've ever even used him at all)/ No one is or ever will claim these guys counter anything because that's not their job. No one is telling you Talonflame sucks because it doesn't hard counter Tyranitar and Rotom-W. That's not their job, don't act like it's their job. His job is to leave huge dents in anything that tries to touch it and that's exactly what he does.

Talonflame can't switch into Rotom-W, guess it better be B rank, right? You're completely missing my point, your calcs are stupid, because I already said I'm not denying that it is strong. LOL, at half of them please Outrage my Excadrill, so I can kill you with Iron Head. Also you're doing calcultions for the banded set of course it's going to hit hard.

Not really sure what you're trying to prove with Charizard-X, considering they both are weak to common attacking types but Charizard is weaker, frailer, albeit faster. In fact, I can argue all I want all your points can also easily apply to Charizard-X so he should be B-Rank too.

You're actually an idiot I just said its easier to use because you can switch it in to more things. I never said any of those mons counters Kyurem-B i said it can't switch into any of them which is true. You are ignoring my argument and making your own. You didn't defend a single point I made. Good bye.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Talonflame can't switch into Rotom-W, guess it better be B rank, right? You're completely missing my point, your calcs are stupid, because I already said I'm not denying that it is strong. LOL, at half of them please Outrage my Excadrill, so I can kill you with Iron Head. Also you're doing calcultions for the banded set of course it's going to hit hard.

Not really sure what you're trying to prove with Charizard-X, considering they both are weak to common attacking types but Charizard is weaker, frailer, albeit faster. In fact, I can argue all I want all your points can also easily apply to Charizard-X so he should be B-Rank too.

You're actually an idiot I just said its easier to use because you can switch it in to more things. I never said any of those mons counters Kyurem-B i said it can't switch into any of them which is true. You are ignoring my argument and making your own. You didn't defend a single point I made. Good bye.

it can't switch into any of them

it can't switch into any of them

You think, YOU THINK, that CHARIZARD is easier to switch in threats than KYUREM. Never mind that it MUST get a free turn to mega evolve before it can actually get some sort of bulk, kyurem is still bulkier regardless of what mega charizard becomes. Greninja, rotom, excadrill, talonflame, garchomp, aegislash, neither of them are switch in opportunities for charizard anyway so wth. Wallbreakers dont need to switch in shit, they need to break walls, and kyurem is the best there is at what it does

. Do you know how stall deals with life orb kyurem? They switch around hoping to outpredict it, thats how good it is. Solid A+ rank material, breaks any defensive core in half, extremely versatile being able to go full offensive, tankish or even fully defensive.

You're actually an idiot

 

[Jayd]

Mega Abomasnow is a comfortable B. I don't know why people are throwing around C's with its name. Even though it has so many weaknesses, resistance to water, electric, grass, and ground provide a surprising number of opportunities and its bulk allows it to take neutral hits in stride. Plus it has the pleasure of switching into Spores, Sleep Powders, and Leech Seeds for free. There is no Pokemon that it can't hit hard with the right set as it has a great movepool and mixed offensive stats. Nothing else in the game can do what it does, meaning that if it has good synergy with your team there's a good chance that there are no better options, and on the flip-side it's not hard at all to make a team that's M-Abomasnow weak. It suffers from obvious flaws but its niche is cut deep and it doesn't sweat one bit in keeping up with the other B-ranked Pokemon.

It's too bad bulky waters have declined, as they are a playground for this guy.

 

[RufflesPro]

Talonflame can't switch into Rotom-W, guess it better be B rank, right? You're completely missing my point, your calcs are stupid, because I already said I'm not denying that it is strong. LOL, at half of them please Outrage my Excadrill, so I can kill you with Iron Head. Also you're doing calcultions for the banded set of course it's going to hit hard.

Not really sure what you're trying to prove with Charizard-X, considering they both are weak to common attacking types but Charizard is weaker, frailer, albeit faster. In fact, I can argue all I want all your points can also easily apply to Charizard-X so he should be B-Rank too.

You're actually an idiot I just said its easier to use because you can switch it in to more things. I never said any of those mons counters Kyurem-B i said it can't switch into any of them which is true. You are ignoring my argument and making your own. You didn't defend a single point I made. Good bye.

Ok look

Not one of his cals showed Banded Kyurem-B, he showed Adamant LEFTOVERS sub Kyurem-b, in the new metagame all I'm seeing is Scarf Adamant, Jolly Life Orb, and Jolly/Adamant CB. Kyurem-B can't switch on any of this?

#1 Rotom-W: Switch-ing in on a Hydro Pump / Volt Switch is now prob, Wow?
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt burned Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 186-219 (61.1 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
#2 Talonflame: 252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 187-220 (47.7 - 56.1%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO, in 1v1 situation you are winning, you may not be able to switch in on CB Talonflame, but Talonflame can't switch in on you either.
#3 Lucario: Ok.
#4 Genesect: Can do nothing, Genesect is either already locked (Doubt it's Iron Head) or just LO, in both ways you are winning.
#5 Aegislash:

252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 138-163 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (All Out attacking set)
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 138-163 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (SD Set)
252+ Atk Aegislash-Shield Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 120-142 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- 51.3% chance to 3HKO Yeah you are winning in the end.

#6 Heatran: 252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 209-246 (54.1 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Lava Plume 4HKOs
#7 Garchomp: Garchomp wins yes, but who is switching a dragon on a dragon? Unless you know it's using something else, and if you are scarfed, you win in that case
#8 Greninja: Can do nothing to Kyurem-B
#9 Scizor: Ok.
#10 Excadrill:
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 298-351 (82.3 - 96.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Yeah.

 

[ginganinja]

Do you see my point? It can't safely switch into any of the top 10 pokemon without some serious prediction skill. How is that a pokemon that deserves A-rank.

Pretty sure Mega Lucario cannot "safely" switch into most of the top 10 mons you listed either. Does this mean we should drop Mega Lucario down a few tiers?

Im also handing out some more infractions. Some people just don't seem to know when to stop posting...

 

[Zangold]

Kyurem B is amazing, but handled pretty easy by Ferrothorn. Mega Lucario may not be able to switch into things, but the same can be said for its opponents- Mega Luke is a monster. Gliscor is amazing as usual- but Landorus-T- he's a bro.

 

[epicdrill]

#5 Aegislash:

252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 138-163 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (All Out attacking set)
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 138-163 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (SD Set)
252+ Atk Aegislash-Shield Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 120-142 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- 51.3% chance to 3HKO Yeah you are winning in the end.

I agree with most of your post, but...
This part of your post is incorrect, for Aegislash becomes Blade forme when it attacks, as such, the correct calc for this spot is this:
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 240-284 (61.2 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Mood4food77]

kyurem-b is literally the worst pokemon for stall to face, ask any stall player and kyurem-b is probably the biggest threat to it, followed closely by mega zard x

anything lower than A+ for either of these pokemon is absurd when they almost completely ruin a playstyle single-handedly

no they can't switch into a lot of offensive threats but who can unless you super resist everything it can throw at you, seriously

 

[Always!]

kyurem-b is literally the worst pokemon for stall to face, ask any stall player and kyurem-b is probably the biggest threat to it, followed closely by mega zard x

anything lower than A+ for either of these pokemon is absurd when they almost completely ruin a playstyle single-handedly

no they can't switch into a lot of offensive threats but who can unless you super resist everything it can throw at you, seriously

This. Stall is completely rekt by this thing.

The standard Sub+3 Attacks Special variant already is extremely anti meta, if you wanna nuke it, slap Adamant, CB, and call it a day.

Maybe there would be an argument if it was frailer.... Oh wait, it isn't. It is bulky enough to survive some SE hits like a pro, and retaliate back well. I honestly see nothing but A for this guy.

 

[ensurdagen]

I'm gonna agree that Ky-B should be in A-... It is 2HKOed by mega-lucario vacuum wave? That makes it easy to revenge kill, if you somehow don't have any faster pokemon in this blazing fast metagame. Steel moves are more popular now, too, because of fairy type. If Ky-B is A, why isn't it popular? Personally, I haven't had much success throwing it on my team willy-nilly. The post about Aegislash vs Freeze Shock Ky-B made me laugh, I hope that was the point.