XY UU Beta Discussion (Read post #32)

[Snow Wolf]

http://www.smogon.com/download/sprites/bw/197.png

I hope that image didn't go wrong, I've never done that before :p
Ok, here is a Umbreon set I like in UU.

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Protect
- Payback
- Curse
- Wish

It's natural Special Defensive bulk with E.V's makes the Special Defence stat really high. Then boosting your Attack and Defence is Curse, which makes up for it's lower Defence. If you're low on HP, Wish is there, but I guess you could have Moonlight and Toxic replacing Wish and Protect, but Idk, either way, it can be really powerful! But Cobalion can own this thing, a couple of CC's and it's down. If you want to, try using it, glhf in UU!

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

http://www.smogon.com/download/sprites/bw/197.png

I hope that image didn't go wrong, I've never done that before :p
Ok, here is a Umbreon set I like in UU.

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Protect
- Payback
- Curse
- Wish

It's natural Special Defensive bulk with E.V's makes the Special Defence stat really high. Then boosting your Attack and Defence is Curse, which makes up for it's lower Defence. If you're low on HP, Wish is there, but I guess you could have Moonlight and Toxic replacing Wish and Protect, but Idk, either way, it can be really powerful! But Cobalion can own this thing, a couple of CC's and it's down. If you want to, try using it, glhf in UU!

put it in

the icon thing next to the smily face

 

[effyouzion]

Mega Ampharos + Suicune is a disgustingly good defensive core, especially with Diggersby gone. MAmph takes electric and grass really well (4x and 2x resist respectively), and Suicune can switch in on ice moves and all but the strongest of earthquakes. I use rest talk on both and my team laughs at stall teams that rely on status, and I don't even need to use a cleric.

Mega Absol has base 150 Attack, Swords Dance, and it isn't affected by the moves most commonly used by stall teams (i.e. status moves like WoW and Toxic and phazing).
(Normal) Medicham has better Attack and Speed than Diggersby.

No swords dance tho. I like Diggersby but all it takes is for him to get 1 swords dance and any team without lots of fast offensive threats is done for. And there's always the possibility of a scarf or band set which can hurt even those faster teams.

Plus Medicham has serious issues with ghosts. You can't even use high jump kick reliably if there's a ghost still alive on the other team. Diggersby has the 2 most powerful drawback-free physical stabs in the game.

 

[Loudo]

No swords dance tho. I like Diggersby but all it takes is for him to get 1 swords dance and any team without lots of fast offensive threats is done for. And there's always the possibility of a scarf or band set which can hurt even those faster teams.

Plus Medicham has serious issues with ghosts. You can't even use high jump kick reliably if there's a ghost still alive on the other team. Diggersby has the 2 most powerful drawback-free physical stabs in the game.

Of course, I'm not saying Medicham is better than Diggersby. There's a reason Diggersby got banned and Medicham didn't after all. All I was saying is that there's still plenty of Pokémon with instant offensive presence.

 

[CascadeBeta]

It's almost like we shouldn't be banning based solely on usage statistics, but also based on stats, movepool, abilities, so on. There is no reason why Mega Gardy should be banned, but Jirachi/Keldeo/Latias/Tornadus/ect are not. All I've seen in the tier over the last two weeks month is 3 out of those 4, and then a couple of a select small pool. That is not a healthy metagame, and I have no idea how those 'mons aren't banned yet.

 

[Demoness]

It's almost like we shouldn't be banning based solely on usage statistics, but also based on stats, movepool, abilities, so on. There is no reason why Mega Gardy should be banned, but Jirachi/Keldeo/Latias/Tornadus/ect are not. All I've seen in the tier over the last two weeks month is 3 out of those 4, and then a couple of a select small pool. That is not a healthy metagame, and I have no idea how those 'mons aren't banned yet.

Uh, we do ban by those criteria you listed. During my time on the site, that has been the only way we have banned Pokemon. And it would help if you actually made an argument as to why those 4 Pokemon you mentioned are broken, and not just say "these Pokemon are used often!! ban them now!!"

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

It's almost like we shouldn't be banning based solely on usage statistics, but also based on stats, movepool, abilities, so on. There is no reason why Mega Gardy should be banned, but Jirachi/Keldeo/Latias/Tornadus/ect are not. All I've seen in the tier over the last two weeks month is 3 out of those 4, and then a couple of a select small pool. That is not a healthy metagame, and I have no idea how those 'mons aren't banned yet.

Stuff doesn't get banned for being used a lot, if that was the case then Rotom-W would have been banned from OU a long time ago. Deo-S was in BL but got suspect tested anyway.

Gardevoirite's ban was questionable but I can see the reasons. Pixilate Hyper Voice hits hard, and with coverage in Focus Blast and Shadow Ball, and being able to hit the physical side with STAB Psyshock, very few things could switch in, let alone actually do anything back considering Gardevoir can survive a few neutral special hits. This isn't mentioning its support moves, which includes Will-o-wisp which can screw over a lot of counters like Assault Vest/Scarfed Metagross. Destiny Bond is also a "lmao fuck you" to a lot of checks or counters. Also notable is Healing Wish, Encore, Taunt, Calm Mind, Wish, Screens, and Thunder Wave. Now I'm not saying its ban was absolutely justifiable, but it was a pretty big threat in the tier IMO.

Jirachi is good but not ban-worthy. I wouldn't even call it a top threat. Keldeo is really good, but without perma-rain it's not as crazy scary as it was in Gen V OU and a lot of its old counters have joined it in UU, as well as new ones like Florges. Latias is one of the best pokemon in the tier but is again not overwhelmingly powerful. Tornadus was UU last gen anyway.

 

[jamashawalker]

Not saying this UU is ass right now...but stall is pretty prelevant at the moment. And UU is ass

 

[Golemman]

http://www.smogon.com/download/sprites/bw/197.png

I hope that image didn't go wrong, I've never done that before :p
Ok, here is a Umbreon set I like in UU.

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Protect
- Payback
- Curse
- Wish

It's natural Special Defensive bulk with E.V's makes the Special Defence stat really high. Then boosting your Attack and Defence is Curse, which makes up for it's lower Defence. If you're low on HP, Wish is there, but I guess you could have Moonlight and Toxic replacing Wish and Protect, but Idk, either way, it can be really powerful! But Cobalion can own this thing, a couple of CC's and it's down. If you want to, try using it, glhf in UU!

If you use curse, use moonlight and a coverage option not wish protect. For coverage, he doesn't get much, but there are body slam, double edge, quick attack, sucker punch, dig, and iron tail. Ooh maybe wish+dig would be fun idk. Anyway, curse umbreon seems like a good set. Unfortunately, if he has a few boosts, payback won't hit phasers hard because he will be going first, then getting phased.
I have had great success with a support set of:
Umbreon (obviously lol) Lefties
Synchronize
Max Hp max spD 4def with Careful
-Wish
-Protect
-Foul play
-Heal bell/Toxic
It's an underestimated wall, I haven't seen very many umbreons out there. He literally has the same physdef stats as Slowbro, so with max hp he still takes phys moves pretty darn well. Many a Haxorus, Absol, diggersby (well not anymore), and other phys attackers have seen my umbreon as a setup opportunity. They regretted that because he swiftly KOed with Foul play. This is a pivot/wall/setup batters bait(?)/utility/cleric mon. He's good. My megastoise and darmanitan love the wish passing because of lack of recovery and flare blitz spam respectively (flare blitz megastoise anyone?). He also attracts florges and fightings like a lamp to a moth, so pack needed counters. Darmanitan actually works great at checking florges.
So anyway, umbreon is underrated and serves many needed roles that could help your team out a lot.
Take that Haxorus
+1 0 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 306-361 (101.3 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[WebBowser]

I have to admit, I was (and to an extent, still am) very concerned with some of the latest additions to the BL list. My personal fear is that UU will continue to develop without these, admittedly very powerful, threats and will become a metagame in which reintroducing these threats will harm it in a way that simply leaving them and accepting that a great deal of power creep will occur due to the generation shift would not have. Now granted, I am relatively new here and do not understand everything that makes a meta (though from lurking around on the policy review board I have gleaned, among many other things, that no one else fully understands that either), but a large number of Pokemon seem rather underwhelming to be the UU equivalent of an Uber. That being said, I am glad that the council has planned suspect tests for a lot of the bans that appear questionable and I will be watching eagerly to see how this experiment in banning philosophy turns out.

Out of curiosity, anywhere I can look to read up on the rational of some of these "quickbans" (not to be confused with the OU definition "this pokemon should have been part of the original ban list" of quickban). Weavile in particular came out of the left field for me. I'd eat my nonexistant hat if knock off didn't have something to do with it, but as far as knock off users go, Crawdaunt has much, much more immediate power and Mienshao is better at the "I threaten this mon I'm in on therefore you should switch out, oh wait I used knock off, enjoy losing your item and possibly your entire mon, I really hope that wasn't your answer to my HJK, lol" role, except replace HJK with whatever the heck Weavile uses to threaten stuff. In case I need to elaborate, Mienshao's main STAB, HJK, is countered by ghost types, so if you get mienshao safely in on something that is threatened by HJK, your opponent will have to either risk swapping in something that's not immune to HJK and risk taking some serious damage, or send in a ghost and risk getting nailed by knock off on the switch. Neither of Weavile's main stabs are as threatening as Mienshao's HJK, and ice does not have as much offensive synergy with knock off as HJK. Furthermore, since knock off is one of weavile's stabs, countering it is a bit easier as weavile is far more likely to go to knock off then mienshao is (the payoff if the opponent stays in on mienshao's knock off isn't as great for mienshao). The one thing that Weavile DOES have over Mienshao is that if you do get weavile in on something that it threatens, if the opponent shoots for a more offensively based counter, weavile can nail him with knock off and then follow up with ice shard for a possible KO. However, given that a weavile knock off can be read from a mile away, to swap in a pokemon that this can happen to is simply a bad move on the opponents part.

TL;DR Where can I find out why you choose the bans you do?

 

[RotomPoison]

WebBowser Weavile may not be as strong as Crawdaunt, but it's very fast, which is huge. Band are decided by kokoloko and whoever he decides can vote. Some of their nominations may seem... out of place, and I agree some are, but when real suspect testing comes, you can ladder for that and vote on it. As for what's banned so far, some obviously deserved it (DRIZZLE) amd some are a bit more on the fence (see more recent bans, to an extent.) See, Mienshao CAN spam HJK because you can see if they have a Ghost, and Knock Off has literally cleaned the tier for all but few of them.

 

[WebBowser]

WebBowser Weavile may not be as strong as Crawdaunt, but it's very fast, which is huge. Band are decided by kokoloko and whoever he decides can vote. Some of their nominations may seem... out of place, and I agree some are, but when real suspect testing comes, you can ladder for that and vote on it. As for what's banned so far, some obviously deserved it (DRIZZLE) amd some are a bit more on the fence (see more recent bans, to an extent.) See, Mienshao CAN spam HJK because you can see if they have a Ghost, and Knock Off has literally cleaned the tier for all but few of them.

I was more using Mienshao an example of a mon who does similar stuff as Weavile and can be argued to be better (note how I didn't even mention life orb or reckless, 2 huge sources of it's power) at what it does, yet was not even up for a vote. Now, I used Mienshao extensively on the UU beta ladder (cuz I love volt turn and desperately want CB ninjask to be viable somewhere), while I have used Weavile relatively few times, so there may be some hidden aspect of weaviles power I am not seeing. Maybe I'm underestimating that extra 25 base speed, or the fact that he actually gets STAB on knock off, but honestly, I'm not seeing it and therefore I would like to see other folks opinions on it (especially from the folks that actually make these decisions) so that I can be a better judge. Atm, I am biased as heck due to the sheer personal experience asymmetry between the two pokes.

 

[effyouzion]

I was more using Mienshao an example of a mon who does similar stuff as Weavile and can be argued to be better (note how I didn't even mention life orb or reckless, 2 huge sources of it's power) at what it does, yet was not even up for a vote. Now, I used Mienshao extensively on the UU beta ladder (cuz I love volt turn and desperately want CB ninjask to be viable somewhere), while I have used Weavile relatively few times, so there may be some hidden aspect of weaviles power I am not seeing. Maybe I'm underestimating that extra 25 base speed, or the fact that he actually gets STAB on knock off, but honestly, I'm not seeing it and therefore I would like to see other folks opinions on it (especially from the folks that actually make these decisions) so that I can be a better judge. Atm, I am biased as heck due to the sheer personal experience asymmetry between the two pokes.

Weavile doesn't have many switch ins, Mienshao does. STAB knock off covers everything but dark, fighting and fairy, and the dark types in the tier (Honch, Krook, Hydreigon) are destroyed by ice punch while the fairies and fighting types can't really take physical hits. Even stuff like Suicune hates knock off. Then you have that speed, which means Weavile is always going to get 2 hits in a row barring priority. Throw in the potential for swords dance and he's a monster wall breaker and sweeper. Mienshao, on the other hand, isn't going to break through ghosts even with life orb + knock off (Dusclops/Cofag will still wall you to hell) and if you're not using choice scarf then there's a number of faster pokes that can step in and stop you.

The biggest difference between Weavile now and Weavile last gen is that last gen steel resisted dark and the best dark move was the 70 BP night slash. Now, he's using knock off, which is basically 40% stronger and isn't resisted by steels. A 40% increase in damage from your main attack is pretty ridiculous. That's like taking the Weavile from last gen that's using night slash, and giving him a free +1 to attack every time he comes in.

I didn't expect Weavile to be super amazing either, but after playing against him a lot in the past week or two I realized that in practice he destroys teams almost by himself. If you're not running Suicune, mega Blastoise or mega Aggron then be prepared to be swept.

 

[WebBowser]

Weavile doesn't have many switch ins, Mienshao does. STAB knock off covers everything but dark, fighting and fairy, and the dark types in the tier (Honch, Krook, Hydreigon) are destroyed by ice punch while the fairies and fighting types can't really take physical hits. Even stuff like Suicune hates knock off. Then you have that speed, which means Weavile is always going to get 2 hits in a row barring priority. Throw in the potential for swords dance and he's a monster wall breaker and sweeper. Mienshao, on the other hand, isn't going to break through ghosts even with life orb + knock off (Dusclops/Cofag will still wall you to hell) and if you're not using choice scarf then there's a number of faster pokes that can step in and stop you.

The biggest difference between Weavile now and Weavile last gen is that last gen steel resisted dark and the best dark move was the 70 BP night slash. Now, he's using knock off, which is basically 40% stronger and isn't resisted by steels. A 40% increase in damage from your main attack is pretty ridiculous. That's like taking the Weavile from last gen that's using night slash, and giving him a free +1 to attack every time he comes in.

I didn't expect Weavile to be super amazing either, but after playing against him a lot in the past week or two I realized that in practice he destroys teams almost by himself. If you're not running Suicune, mega Blastoise or mega Aggron then be prepared to be swept.

hmm, maybe I've never noticed because phys defensive Umbreon completely stops him and can actually outdual him with foul play. That being said, you bring up good points, thanks for taking the time to explain that to me.

 

[reale]

for anybody not mentioning jirachi, watch out for its future-doom set, pretty underlooked but think about it: specs 252+ jirachi used doom desire, switch to a dragon, now your opponent can't switch in florges safely anymore. even if you don't feel like using specs, life orb with u-turn works.

jirachi @ choice specs
252 Spa+ Nature
- Doom Desire
- Future Sight
- Healing Wish
- Trick or any other filler

m-gardevoir is going to be banned now? and I thought m-medichamp was the last.
it seems the metagame is overall buffed, look at crit kingdra for example.

 

[Jellied Eels]

WebBowser , keep in mind that "suspects will be reintroduced into the tier from least-likely-to-be-broken to most likely". Stuff like Weavile and Diggersby will probably be among the first to be suspect tested so I don't think you should worry about the meta adapting too much without them. Tbh I think these bans are justified given that as far as I understand the new tiering system this is the only way to have a Pokemon suspected, at least for a while. Weavile and Diggersby are definitely problematic Pokemons that threaten entire playstyles; while they don't appear outright broken they are suspect-worthy and banning them for a couple of weeks seems a reasonable decision when the alternative is that we can't do anything about them at all for the months it takes to suspect all the other obviously broken stuff.

 

[Ash Borer]

WebBowser

come to #xyuu on irc and most of the uu council are there daily, you can ask them personally. Kokoloko, the leader is there pretty often.

 

[Kavatika]

WebBowser

come to #xyuu on irc and most of the uu council are there daily, you can ask them personally. Kokoloko, the leader is there pretty often.

on that note, this is the mibbit link
http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/?server=irc.synirc.net&channel=#xyuu

 

[Patrick1088]

Im not finding keldeo to be broken as i saw somebody posted above. Almost all if its checks and counters dropped to uu with it; latias, jellicent, toxicroak, roserade (although it is almost 2hko by +2 secret sword) plus newcomers in florges oh and celebi too lol

I am very curious to see what the new top mega will be. Im thinking mega manectric is a top threat and houndoom a close second (water fighting and stealth rock isnt helping). Ive been trying to run absol, but i cant find a good set for it. I was thinking of running swords dance with knock off, sucker punch and coverage move in either megahorn or iron tail.

 

[yikes]

Im not finding keldeo to be broken as i saw somebody posted above. Almost all if its checks and counters dropped to uu with it; latias, jellicent, toxicroak, roserade (although it is almost 2hko by +2 secret sword) plus newcomers in florges oh and celebi too lol

I am very curious to see what the new top mega will be. Im thinking mega manectric is a top threat and houndoom a close second (water fighting and stealth rock isnt helping). Ive been trying to run absol, but i cant find a good set for it. I was thinking of running swords dance with knock off, sucker punch and coverage move in either megahorn or iron tail, but not superpower.

Superpower is the best coverage move. Or at least it would be if not for fairies...

 

[TM13IceBeam]

IN MEGGRON WE TRUST

yeah fuck everything mega aggron is good
he lost arguably the one physical threat that he has issues with (megacham has a small chance to OHKO aggron after SR, which is something!)

Seriously speaking though, I tried out some other megas. Absol is decent enough, he's one of those "give him a free turn and you're fucked" mons, which he can get easily because of Magic Bounce. Unfortunately his defenses are balls. I don't bother running coverage, since fairies aren't that hard to handle (Florges gets fucked over easily imo, Gardevoir dies to Knock Off or Sucker Punch, and other fairies aren't really that common afaik. Absol's job is to fuck over Whimsicott, so yeah it dgaf about Whimsi unless it's like fucking offensive Whimsicott) Manectric is fine I suppose, simply for Volt-turn abuse.

 

[Anty]

With all this talk about stall and how some people think it is 'broken', im suprised nobody had talk about reunicleus. This thing can 6-0 stall with calm mind and recover, as long as it doesnt get phazed stall cannot touch it. Its even better now with the weavile and diggersby bans as these 2, esp weavile, are great at killing it. Make sure that absol/houndoom are gone though.

Reuniclus @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Recover

This set dominates stall, all chansey can do is watch and try 5hko with seismic (or 6hko with lefties) whilst the fetus sets up multiple calm minds on it and procedes to sweep stall. Psyshock is great as you can smack florges and chansey from their weak defense. Shadow ball can be used for latias but psyshock still does damage. Seriously, this is a scary threat, if you want to beat stall, use it. (Strong dark/ghost types hurt it as well as roar/whirlwind and taunt).

Hide

+2 4 SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 148-175 (49 - 57.9%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 72-85 (16.9 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 4 SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 374-441 (103.8 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 4 SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 367-433 (106.6 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 196-232 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 290-344 (68.3 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 194-230 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO

 

[panamaxis]

yeah I have to agree that reuniclus is really amazing at the moment. I get the feeling that after the recent bans UU is somewhat shifting towards a more defensive metagame, with bulky set up sweepers such as Crocune and Reuniclus being major threats. I think these two in particular will become more and more popular. For anyone looking for an easy stop to both of them, SD celebi should definitely be considered as it can turn both of these guys into liabilities (obviously not vs TR reuniclus but against the set posted above).

@ The person asking if there were any good offensive fairy types in the tier, scarf gardevoir is still a decent option with gardevoirite getting the ban. I've also been experimenting with a Max s.atk florges which has been fairly decent so far since its 112 base s.atk is often overlooked. Here's what i run:

Florges @ Leftovers
Ability: Flower Veil
EVs: 136 Spd / 252 SAtk / 120 HP
Modest Nature
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Calm Mind
- Aromatherapy

Outspeeds min speed roserade + a little extra speed creep. It's pretty cool getting a suprise kill every now and then but yeah as far as offensive fairy types go (after the ban on gardevoirite) this is what I've been trying out and so far it's been ok. Bellydrum slurpuff sounds scary in theory but I haven't had a chance to try it out yet.

 

[Gorgon_Kain]

Queen (Hawlucha) (F) @ Power Herb
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Baton Pass
- High Jump Kick
- Sky Attack

I hope someone has mentioned this guy. He is insanely powerful after a shell smash or Ninjask SD. I have OKO'd s few teams with this. The only check I have seen to this set boosted, is Slowbro. There are a few pokes I would prefer not to switch into of course, but it is a powerful niche that requires multiple checks to take out. Just my two pence :)

 

[Patrick1088]

Queen (Hawlucha) (F) @ Power Herb
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Baton Pass
- High Jump Kick
- Sky Attack

I hope someone has mentioned this guy. He is insanely powerful after a shell smash or Ninjask SD. I have OKO'd s few teams with this. The only check I have seen to this set boosted, is Slowbro. There are a few pokes I would prefer not to switch into of course, but it is a powerful niche that requires multiple checks to take out. Just my two pence :)

Why baton pass on this set? Its not like he can pass the unburden boost. I think youd be better off with swords dance tbh..