XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

[KM]

Hello~

Qwilfish for B- rank (currently not on list)

- Why Qwilfish?: With a slew of new physical attackers entering the fray along with the old tried and true predators (Darm, Victini, Mienshao, Heracross), Qwilfish has new fun toys to wall the fuck out of. With Intimidate, it takes most hits with ease, and its amazing defensive typing ensures that it survives. It's especially notable for being a great check to Hawlucha - bar Sky Attack hax, Qwilfish can even take a +1 Power Herb Sky attack and cripple it with a t-wave. (From there, you can just flinch/para it to death if you're lucky enough, pain split some health back up, or just get some hazards down and leave haw as fodder for something else.)

It works great in duo intimidate comps (I'm currently running Krookodile + Qwilfish) to shut down physical attackers even further. Also, its movepool is still amazing - Pain Split for recovery, Explosion or Destiny Bond for surprise factor, Waterfall or Poison Jab (now 100% more effective against fairies :D) for a decent-powered stab, Spikes or Toxic Spikes for great hazards, and Thunder Wave to shut down those pesky sweepers.

- What's changed in Gen 6?: Last gen, Qwilfish was hovering around the high B/low A rank. Unfortunately, he doesn't really deserve that much praise nowadays. With the distressing rise of the knock up, a lot of his utility as well as tankiness to certain physical threats has been diminished. Also, with the introduction of defog, hazard spamming isn't quite as effective as it was before.

That said, it is a useful check/counter for gen 6 physical threats, including (but not limited to) Hawlucha and Crawdaunt. For the most part, its utility is unchanged. Furthermore, one of its biggest problems (SD Sub Bisharp, which forced it to run haze) is now relegated to the land of the scary things.

- What does Qwilfish offer that other Bulky waters (Suicune, Slowbro) don't?: First and foremost, Intimidate. Not only does Intimidate make Qwilfish a tanky beast in himself, it also increases his utility - he can switch in on something at low hp and cripple them for the rest of your team to survive. Secondly, Utility. Slowbro and Suicune offer varying amounts of utility, and it's mostly self-directed. Whether it's CM/Sub/RestTalk/Slack Off, it's all directed towards helping itself survive, with the exception of the fairly common toxic. By contrast, most of Qwilfish's Utility is team-beneficial - whether it's crippling sweepers with TWave or laying down devastating hazards, Qwilfish is just really useful. Finally, typing. Qwilfish's typing is defensively far superior to either the all water or water/psychic of the other two bulky waters. Psychic makes Slowbro vulnerable to Megahorns and Knock Offs, and pure water means that Suicune has a tough time taking hard fighting hits. Water/Poison is awesome defensive typing comparatively.

Conclusion: Qwilfish certainly doesn't fit on every team. He is certainly niche, but that isn't to say he isn't useful. With his high utility, decent tankiness to gen 6 threats, and ability to cripple said threats, Qwilfish deserves to be on the viability ranking thread in general, and should be placed around B-.

 

[Calloflochie]

Hello~

Qwilfish for B- rank (currently not on list)

- Why Qwilfish?: With a slew of new physical attackers entering the fray along with the old tried and true predators (Darm, Victini, Mienshao, Heracross), Qwilfish has new fun toys to wall the fuck out of. With Intimidate, it takes most hits with ease, and its amazing defensive typing ensures that it survives. It's especially notable for being a great check to Hawlucha - bar Sky Attack hax, Qwilfish can even take a +1 Power Herb Sky attack and cripple it with a t-wave. (From there, you can just flinch/para it to death if you're lucky enough, pain split some health back up, or just get some hazards down and leave haw as fodder for something else.)

It works great in duo intimidate comps (I'm currently running Krookodile + Qwilfish) to shut down physical attackers even further. Also, its movepool is still amazing - Pain Split for recovery, Explosion or Destiny Bond for surprise factor, Waterfall or Poison Jab (now 100% more effective against fairies :D) for a decent-powered stab, Spikes or Toxic Spikes for great hazards, and Thunder Wave to shut down those pesky sweepers.

- What's changed in Gen 6?: Last gen, Qwilfish was hovering around the high B/low A rank. Unfortunately, he doesn't really deserve that much praise nowadays. With the distressing rise of the knock up, a lot of his utility as well as tankiness to certain physical threats has been diminished. Also, with the introduction of defog, hazard spamming isn't quite as effective as it was before.

That said, it is a useful check/counter for gen 6 physical threats, including (but not limited to) Hawlucha and Crawdaunt. For the most part, its utility is unchanged. Furthermore, one of its biggest problems (SD Sub Bisharp, which forced it to run haze) is now relegated to the land of the scary things.

- What does Qwilfish offer that other Bulky waters (Suicune, Slowbro) don't?: First and foremost, Intimidate. Not only does Intimidate make Qwilfish a tanky beast in himself, it also increases his utility - he can switch in on something at low hp and cripple them for the rest of your team to survive. Secondly, Utility. Slowbro and Suicune offer varying amounts of utility, and it's mostly self-directed. Whether it's CM/Sub/RestTalk/Slack Off, it's all directed towards helping itself survive, with the exception of the fairly common toxic. By contrast, most of Qwilfish's Utility is team-beneficial - whether it's crippling sweepers with TWave or laying down devastating hazards, Qwilfish is just really useful. Finally, typing. Qwilfish's typing is defensively far superior to either the all water or water/psychic of the other two bulky waters. Psychic makes Slowbro vulnerable to Megahorns and Knock Offs, and pure water means that Suicune has a tough time taking hard fighting hits. Water/Poison is awesome defensive typing comparatively.

Conclusion: Qwilfish certainly doesn't fit on every team. He is certainly niche, but that isn't to say he isn't useful. With his high utility, decent tankiness to gen 6 threats, and ability to cripple said threats, Qwilfish deserves to be on the viability ranking thread in general, and should be placed around B-.

Also Qwilfish is severely hampered by a lot of the common Pokemon present in the UU tier at the moment. A combination of a heal beller and a defogger (even just one of the two) renders Qwilfish almost useless in terms of it's ability to 'help out the team' aside from Intimidate. The one that comes to mind is Zapdos, it is immune to all the entry hazards Qwilfish can put up (and able to defog them away to help the team), forces Qwilfish to switch fearing the Super Effective Electric Type move and is immune to Thunder Wave too.

This being said Qwilfish still does a decent job at stopping (or at least slowing down) a lot of the physical Fighting and Fire types in the UU tier but unfortunately due to the buff in defog and the inclusion of a lot of mons that turns Qwilfish into complete set up bait e.g Zygarde, Sub Lucha, Lum Haxorus, among others, I don't think that Qwilfish is quite deserving of the B- nomination and I think would probably slide down to somewhere within the C rank category.

Just my thoughts though :]

 

[KM]

Also Qwilfish is severely hampered by a lot of the common Pokemon present in the UU tier at the moment. A combination of a heal beller and a defogger (even just one of the two) renders Qwilfish almost useless in terms of it's ability to 'help out the team' aside from Intimidate. The one that comes to mind is Zapdos, it is immune to all the entry hazards Qwilfish can put up (and able to defog them away to help the team), forces Qwilfish to switch fearing the Super Effective Electric Type move and is immune to Thunder Wave too.

This being said Qwilfish still does a decent job at stopping (or at least slowing down) a lot of the physical Fighting and Fire types in the UU tier but unfortunately due to the buff in defog and the inclusion of a lot of mons that turns Qwilfish into complete set up bait e.g Zygarde, Sub Lucha, Lum Haxorus, among others, I don't think that Qwilfish is quite deserving of the B- nomination and I think would probably slide down to somewhere within the C rank category.

Just my thoughts though :]

Qwil isn't quite as much set-up bait as you think. Although Zapdos definitely walls the fuck out of him and renders him nigh useless, i can't exactly agree with the others. Zygarde, while annoying, is susceptible to haze (if you choose to run it) and can also be caught off guard by a Destiny Bond. Haxorus is not really an issue for me, especially if toxic spikes are already on the field, popping the lum. If not, a +2 Haxorus can certainly ruin the day of any physical wall, especially if Qwil isn't running haze. Sub Hawlucha I really can't see being all too big of a deal. If you switch in while he subs, both waterfall and poison jab will both break it, and the intimidate will apply before the sub, meaning that he's really no better off than normal hawlucha (except he has 25% less health). If we're talking SD on the switch Sub on the TWave, that's sort of a specialized scenario requiring a decent amount of prediction/moveset exactness to be considered complete setup bait.

Most importantly though, reasons like ^ are the reason I use Qwilfish on teams with already existing tank structures. He obviously can't fulfill all the roles of a tank and not get walled by anything, just like Umbreon can't avoid being setup fodder for Cobalion.

That said, my usage certainly hasn't been massively extensive, and I'm more interested at this point in getting Qwilfish onto the thread in general, so if you guys agree more with a C ranking that's chill with me.

 

[Calloflochie]

Qwil isn't quite as much set-up bait as you think. Although Zapdos definitely walls the fuck out of him and renders him nigh useless, i can't exactly agree with the others. Zygarde, while annoying, is susceptible to haze (if you choose to run it) and can also be caught off guard by a Destiny Bond. Haxorus is not really an issue for me, especially if toxic spikes are already on the field, popping the lum. If not, a +2 Haxorus can certainly ruin the day of any physical wall, especially if Qwil isn't running haze. Sub Hawlucha I really can't see being all too big of a deal. If you switch in while he subs, both waterfall and poison jab will both break it, and the intimidate will apply before the sub, meaning that he's really no better off than normal hawlucha (except he has 25% less health). If we're talking SD on the switch Sub on the TWave, that's sort of a specialized scenario requiring a decent amount of prediction/moveset exactness to be considered complete setup bait.

Most importantly though, reasons like ^ are the reason I use Qwilfish on teams with already existing tank structures. He obviously can't fulfill all the roles of a tank and not get walled by anything, just like Umbreon can't avoid being setup fodder for Cobalion.

That said, my usage certainly hasn't been massively extensive, and I'm more interested at this point in getting Qwilfish onto the thread in general, so if you guys agree more with a C ranking that's chill with me.

The scenario's you have explained have a bit of 4MSS. Saying that it can do 7 different things with only 4 moveslots is yet another reason why I think that Qwilfish should be C ranked. Sure it has the potential to Dbond, Pain Split, set Hazards, Thunder Wave and attack but it simply doesn't have enough slots in it's arsenal to pull off said feat. Personally, i think that is more unrealistic than a scenario such as subbing on a predicted Thunder Wave.

What I should have explained better is that Qwilfish isn't necessarily set up bait to all of those mons at all times but depending on the set, it is set up fodder to specific ones. For example, if Qwilfish lacks Thunder Wave, Hawlucha can set up Swords Dance to the point in which it can kill Qwilfish and proceed to do a number on the rest of your team. If you choose, Haze/Destiny Bond, you're more than likely going to give up on hazards or pain split, reducing the survivability and effectiveness of Qwilfish overall. More hazards = more than likely no haze, destiny bond, etc etc that would otherwise stop the setup sweepers that I mentioned in my previous post. What i'm trying to get across is, Qwilfish doesn't fulfill all the roles you mentioned, if it did, sure it would probably be somewhere in the high A rank but unfortunately it cannot do that and therefore means that it fails to help the team as much as a lot of other mons can do.

tl;dr The best example I can give is that Qwilfish is like the defensive version of Victini in gen 5. Victini was annoying to deal with due to the potential of it to run such a large variety of sets and moves meaning that it always had that element of surprise when using it. However, once the moveset was determined, Victini was no longer as big of a problem. This same thing can be applied to Qwilfish in terms of it's effectiveness of a wall/hazard setter/status spreading defensive mon.


Edit: I still think Qwilfish deserves to be ranked due to the fact it can do some of those things but unfortunately cannot do all of them. C rank

 

[Thunderbuckets]

I'd like to talk about Kecleon. He got several buffs this gen which I think make him extremely viable as a revenge-killer/late-game sweeper. Obviously he has stiff competition for this kind of job, but take a look at some of the things he brings to the table:

• Protean: The only other pokemon in the game to get Protean, and we've all seen how potent this is on something with crazy speed and good offenses like Greninja. Kecleon doesn't have the natural speed, but it does have stupendous priority, as well as excellent special bulk. The true value of Protean is the unpredictability it brings, and Kecleon has an excellent movepool to abuse it.
• Movepool: Notable moves usable with Protean include sucker punch, shadow sneak, shadow claw, power-up punch, recover, trick room, fake out, thunder wave, and if you feel like being really ballsy, stuff like magic coat and snatch for the infamous expert-level prediction set.
• Stats: Low BST, but Kecleon has it where it counts. 90 Attack is reasonable, especially with STAB backing every hit. Low speed means nothing for a priority-heavy set, is great for a trick-room sweeper, and doesn't matter for a supporting set with thunder wave. Special bulk is 60/120, which is honestly pretty good, especially when you can change your resistances on the fly and have reliable recovery available. Alternatively, I've found an assault vest set to be amazing for Kecleon.

There's basically two jobs you can have Kecleon do, and he's surprisingly proficient at both of them:

• An assault vest set with fake out, sucker punch, shadow sneak, and power-up punch is absolutely amazing for messing with the enemy; your low speed doesn't matter, and being able to become dark or ghost type at will means you can pull a lot of immunity shenanigans. The use of fake out is more for gauging defenses than dealing damage, since at 40 attack power it quickly tells you how much you can expect a follow-up shadow sneak or power-up punch (also 40) or sucker punch (80) to deal. This set is fantastic at dealing with darmanitan and victini (who both fall easily to fake out/sucker punch), keldeo (who struggles to deal any significant damage through the vest and is dispatched with shadow sneaks), hydreigon (super effective power up punch actually makes him setup bait), mienshao (weak defenses and no priority makes him prey to shadow sneak, and timed right gives you a surprise immunity to high jump kick), and honestly a lot more. This set just cleans house, and sets up against weakened special attackers. Ghost and dark coverage might seem redundant, but both have totally separate uses.
• A support set with thunder wave, recover, and a couple attacking moves of choice (or a weather set move if that's your sort of thing) is also viable. I find fighting/ghost is excellent coverage here as always, and power-up punch/brick break + shadow claw allows you to either set up or break screens, with a base 75 STAB ghost move. You can still have fun with typing once you outspeed whatever you paralyze, and recover means you can just keep on crippling switch-ins. This set sacrifices the revenge killing ability of the previous set for longevity in the middle of the match. If you prefer, you can run trick room in place of thunder wave if that's your sort of team.

I personally prefer the first set, and find that it takes a lot of things by surprise. Kecleon's better at the job than a lot of other commonly used pokemon, in particular shit like ambipom.

As long as you don't keep him in physical hits, which he has no business trying to tank, Kecleon can make a good check to many special threats and threaten a sweep very easily. He's great for dealing chip damage and regaining the momentum in a match, and definitely deserves to be in the rankings. I would put him at B or B-; he has flaws, but is very unpredictable and surprisingly powerful, and can quickly turn a bad situation around.

 

[Timpsu]

Does anyone have experience with the Shadow Taggers (Wobbuffet/Gothitelle) this gen in UU? Given they were quite good in OU last gen, it seems a little odd that they have no ranking whatsoever in UU this gen. Or are they just not worth using?

 

[R. Walton]

Does anyone have experience with the Shadow Taggers (Wobbuffet/Gothitelle) this gen in UU? Given they were quite good in OU last gen, it seems a little odd that they have no ranking whatsoever in UU this gen. Or are they just not worth using?

Wobbuffet and Gothitelle are banned.

 

[dumbguyfin]

Does anyone have experience with the Shadow Taggers (Wobbuffet/Gothitelle) this gen in UU? Given they were quite good in OU last gen, it seems a little odd that they have no ranking whatsoever in UU this gen. Or are they just not worth using?

They are actually BL.

 

[Timpsu]

Aaah, pardon me, didn't see that info. Ty for clarifying.

 

[Porce]

snip

I like to use Kecleon with life orb and max attack adamant, as a dedicated revenge killer with his combination of fake out + shadow sneak/sucker punch. I think with its low attack it needs as much power as possible, and with max HP it still has enough special bulk to take more than one powerful hit if it fails to revenge something.

I'd nominate him for B- like you: though he's quite worthless against more defensive teams, he can revenge kill weakened or frail pokemon very easily as well as support the team with T-wave and clean up late game. The main problem I face with him is wondering if the enemy knows that most Kecleon pack sucker punch, causing some mind games with myself instead of the opponent.

 

[Mazz]

Don't be surprised if Kecleon doesn't make this list.

While the advent of Protean makes Kecleon a really neat Pokemon, it doesn't necessarily have the movepool nor the strength to survive against many of the physical tanks in the tier. Sure if it uses (as an example) Aerial Ace against Hippowdon, it'll become immune to Earthquake, but it's only doing paltry damage at best. Running Aerial Ace would be a terrible idea regardless. Power-Up Punch won't solve all of its problems either, as even its attacks at +2 will fail to concern the likes of Hippowdon, Slowbro, Tangrowth, and Mega-Aggron. Kecleon cannot fall back on its Special Attack either, as base 60 Special Attack isn't scaring anything outside of like, Sunkern. Yes, having STAB on every attack you use is pretty cool, but Kecleon is no Greninja, and will most likely not be viable in Underused. The second thing Kekleon has going against it is most of the rest of its stats. Special Defense and Attack aside, Kecleon would struggle to get out of PU (the theoretical tier below NU). With those two stats out of the picture, Keckleon has 60 HP / 70 Def / 60 Sp.A / 40 Spe. Stats like these don't get you into Underused. Thunderbuckets you claim that its defensive stats aren't terrible. That's only true if you heavily invest in them, which is something Kecleon wouldn't be able to afford to do (since it would become exceptionally weak / slow). Based on your description of what it does, it would probably get a C- Rank at best. However, taking a look at a much larger picture; considering the rest of its stats and everything else used in Underused, Kecleon should not and will not be ranked on this list. I've provided some calculations to further support why Kecleon won't crack this list:

+6 252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 286-337 (68 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kecleon: 160-189 (49.3 - 58.3%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

+6 252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 274-324 (67.8 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Tangrowth would actually lose in this situation, since Giga Drain tops out at ~27% and Knock Off at ~30. Problem is, this is suggesting that Kecleon would have somehow managed to get to +6 Attack, which will never happen.)

+6 252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 298-352 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kecleon: 306-360 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Long story short, Kecleon can't guarantee an OHKO against 3 of the tier's top physical walls while at +6 Attack. Getting Kecleon to such an elevated Attack stat is nigh impossible regardless. Don't be discouraged however; Kecleon may have more success in Rarelyused when it comes up, as there shouldn't be as many defensive titans it would have to 'muscle' past. If not, it should have success even in Neverused, and won't be buried in PU like it was last generation. If you disagree with me however, please provide some calculations and battle logs against quality players and demonstrate that Kecleon is deserving of a ranking on this list.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Zygarde for S rank because its really strong after an attack boost and has very good coverage plus it never has significant speed issues (Extremespeed and DD and good base speed). Also it is really really bulky which lets it set up easily possibly multiple times a game.

I agree with ranking Kecleon and especially Qwilfish it looks like they have a niche which is all you really need for a ranking right?

 

[Ununhexium]

kecleon is generally outclasses do at most it should get D rank. I never used qwilfish last gen but it was used against me extensively in RU and sometimes in UU and it was veeeery annoying. I cant come to a clear consensus but I would say about B- rank

 

[Toljik]

Don't be surprised if Kecleon doesn't make this list.

While the advent of Protean makes Kecleon a really neat Pokemon, it doesn't necessarily have the movepool nor the strength to survive against many of the physical tanks in the tier. Sure if it uses (as an example) Aerial Ace against Hippowdon, it'll become immune to Earthquake, but it's only doing paltry damage at best. Running Aerial Ace would be a terrible idea regardless. Power-Up Punch won't solve all of its problems either, as even its attacks at +2 will fail to concern the likes of Hippowdon, Slowbro, Tangrowth, and Mega-Aggron. Kecleon cannot fall back on its Special Attack either, as base 60 Special Attack isn't scaring anything outside of like, Sunkern. Yes, having STAB on every attack you use is pretty cool, but Kecleon is no Greninja, and will most likely not be viable in Underused. The second thing Kekleon has going against it is most of the rest of its stats. Special Defense and Attack aside, Kecleon would struggle to get out of PU (the theoretical tier below NU). With those two stats out of the picture, Keckleon has 60 HP / 70 Def / 60 Sp.A / 40 Spe. Stats like these don't get you into Underused. Thunderbuckets you claim that its defensive stats aren't terrible. That's only true if you heavily invest in them, which is something Kecleon wouldn't be able to afford to do (since it would become exceptionally weak / slow). Based on your description of what it does, it would probably get a C- Rank at best. However, taking a look at a much larger picture; considering the rest of its stats and everything else used in Underused, Kecleon should not and will not be ranked on this list. I've provided some calculations to further support why Kecleon won't crack this list:

+6 252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 286-337 (68 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kecleon: 160-189 (49.3 - 58.3%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

+6 252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 274-324 (67.8 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Tangrowth would actually lose in this situation, since Giga Drain tops out at ~27% and Knock Off at ~30. Problem is, this is suggesting that Kecleon would have somehow managed to get to +6 Attack, which will never happen.)

+6 252+ Atk Protean Kecleon Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 298-352 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kecleon: 306-360 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Long story short, Kecleon can't guarantee an OHKO against 3 of the tier's top physical walls while at +6 Attack. Getting Kecleon to such an elevated Attack stat is nigh impossible regardless. Don't be discouraged however; Kecleon may have more success in Rarelyused when it comes up, as there shouldn't be as many defensive titans it would have to 'muscle' past. If not, it should have success even in Neverused, and won't be buried in PU like it was last generation. If you disagree with me however, please provide some calculations and battle logs against quality players and demonstrate that Kecleon is deserving of a ranking on this list.

Kecleon has the power to get past select physically defensive threats with special moves, though it sometimes needs to rely on inaccurate moves to do so.

0- SpA Protean Kecleon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 246-290 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

45- SpA Protean Kecleon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 216-254 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

45 SpA Protean Kecleon Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 218-260 (51.9 - 61.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[jamashawalker]

Zygarde for S rank because its really strong after an attack boost and has very good coverage plus it never has significant speed issues (Extremespeed and DD and good base speed). Also it is really really bulky which lets it set up easily possibly multiple times a game.

I agree with ranking Kecleon and especially Qwilfish it looks like they have a niche which is all you really need for a ranking right?

Id also like to say that Zygarde's time to shine hasn't come yet. People haven't realized that true devastating power of how easy it is to set up 2 coils. It's one of those pokemon that is easier done than said(yeah I meant to switch it around on purpose) after scouting an opponents team. Hands down the best Mid-Late Game cleaner in UU.

 

[Schpoonman]

Why would you run a negative Special Attack nature if you were using special attacks? You could run negative Speed or Defense and get those KOs more easily.

 

[KM]

Id also like to say that Zygarde's time to shine hasn't come yet. People haven't realized that true devastating power of how easy it is to set up 2 coils. It's one of those pokemon that is easier done than said(yeah I meant to switch it around on purpose) after scouting an opponents team. Hands down the best Mid-Late Game cleaner in UU.

Phazing sleep talk zygarde is also something to watch out for. (The set goes something along the lines of EQ - DTail - RestTalk. I suppose you could put Coil instead of EQ, but then you're literally boned by florges). It works similar to a rest-talk bulky dragon in ubers would, in that it's tanky enough to take hits and rest up and its DTails do kind of a lot of damage.

 

[Toljik]

Why would you run a negative Special Attack nature if you were using special attacks? You could run negative Speed or Defense and get those KOs more easily.

I assumed that people wouldn't want to compromise its bulk, but I guess a Speed-lowering nature could be used.

Also, I wanted to see what Kecleon could KO with little to nothing put in Special Attack. Sure, you could put 208 EVs into Special Attack, give it a neutral nature and cleanly 2HKO Hippowdon and 1HKO Zygarde with Ice Beam, but that would make Kecleon even more of a mediocre attacker.

 

[Arkian]

I'd like to nominate Tornadus-T for A+ rank. Tornadus-T is such an amazing pivot in today's metagame. It messes everything up with a movepool of Air Slash/Hurricane, U-turn, Knock Off, and then Heat Wave/Superpower. Or you can be like kokoloko and go completely physical with Acrobatics + no item to check Knock Off Fighting-types like Meinshao, Machamp, and Heracross well. The only safe checks to Tornadus-T are Zapdos and Mega Aerodactyl, but the former won't appreciate a Knock Off and the latter is relatively rare. Tornadus-T has few safe switch-ins and gains momentum like no other with U-turn and Regenerator. Speaking of, Regenerator makes it a pain in the ass to take down and gives it a lot of unexpected survivability, even if it is carrying something like a Life Orb. Tornadus-T also has access to Taunt to completely mess up hazard leads, since Aerodactyl is the only relevant hazard lead that's faster than Tornadus-T. With its durability, amazing utility, momentum-gaining abilities, and relatively nice power and coverage, Tornadus-T is more than worthy of A+ rank, and the only thing keeping it from S rank is its lack of wallbreaking power.

 

[Graycross]

Would also like to see Torn-T to A+. Very versatile threat with considerable bulk and utility as well.

 

[eggman62]

I would like to talk about Alomomola a Pokemon that I feel is severely underrated to the point where it has not even been given a spot on the list. I have been using Alomomola extensively and in my opinion it is an absolutely a great Pokemon that definitely deserves to be either A- or B+.

First off before I start let me just say that without actually using Alomomola and having a well developed team I completely appreciate that it is probably going to be incredibly hard for you to justify my reasoning as to why Alomomola deserves such a high rank. Alomomola is not like chansey or Florges, While it can be easily placed on most teams it is definitely more effective on a team that has been well thought out and developed, furthermore do not be fooled into thinking Alomomola is an easy Pokemon to use, while yes it may predominantly be a wall and wish passer it thanks to regenerator it plays completely different to other wish passers.

This is not easy to articulate and I do not want to sound condescending, but if after reading my argument as to why I think Alomomola should be ranked at either A- or B+ please watch this replay: which I think will help highlight just how good Alomomola is.

Why Alomomola?: Bulk. With the large amounts of new physical attackers that have invaded the UU metagame a pokemon that can handle an onslaught of physical attacks is desperately needed I believe Alomomola is that Pokemon as its physical bulk is literally unmatched, while yes its overall walling capability is offset by its weak special bulk thanks to its tremendous HP, which is the fifth highest in the game and regenerator it has no problem tanking weak special attacks.

Alomomola's optimum EV spread is 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef. With maximum EVs in HP and Def Alomomola bulk is incredible take a look at some of the damage calculations below.

Choiced Scarfed Heracross
252+ Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 174-205 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 2.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Life orbed Mienshao
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 224-265 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 226-268 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Sword Dance Hawlucha
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 306-361 (57.3 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 196-232 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Choice Band Heracross
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 261-307 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see from the damage calculations Alomomola's physical bulk is ridiculous most of the tiers strongest physical attackers cannot bypass its defences without some sort of boosting item

Why Alomomola?: Movepool. While Alomomola's movepool is far from exspansive it has just the right moves to stop it from becoming completely useless, once it has switched in.

Knock off. with the new game mechanics is probably one of the most annoying moves, however thanks to said changes it becomes a great tool in Alomomola's arsenal. Looking back at the damage calculations above, even with boosting items some of the tiers strongest attackers can just about manage to 3hko Alomomola, take their items away and thanks to having two forms of reliable recovery it becomes nigh impossible to defeat Alomomola on the physical side without a Crit.

Scald. While many people see scald as the most infuriating move ever, it is a Godsend to Alomomola as the high chance of burn can completely cripple a physical attacker, as a result set up sweepers like Hawlucha will definitely struggle to set up on Alomomola as a resulting burn will completely stop it in its tracks

Wish. Wish Is perhaps the most important move in Alomomala's move pool as without it there would be no point in using it. Alomomola's wishs are the second largest in the tiers after chanseys but thanks to having an arguably better typing that provides more resistances and an entirely different movepool the two pokemon definitely differentiate themselves from each other.

Why Alomomola?:Regenerator. Alomomola's access to regenerator combined with its bulk and movepool is in my opinion its defining factor and unique selling point. Without regenerator Alomomola would hands down be a NU pokemon. Wish, Regenerator and its bulk is what make Alomomola such a difficult defensive pokemon to defeat, this is because unlike chansey, florges and vaporean the tiers premier wish passes, after using wish thanks to regenerator Alomomola is able essential heal itself and another member of the team. While that might sound like an anti climax just take a moment to think about the benefits.

Firstly one of the biggest problems wish passers have is that once they reach a certain level of health they slowly start to loose momentum, as you are forced to juggle between keeping them healthy and the rest of the team. As the match enters mid to late game we all know just how difficult using a wish passer is, one wrong prediction and you could loose your cleric and find yourself with a gapping hole in your team. Alomomola is a bit different thanks to regenerator as unlike other wish passers it plays more like a scarfed pokemon, it comes in then more often than not switches out in the next turn. For example say it is up against a banded Heracross that uses close combat, Alomomola can tank the first hit and proceed to use knock off which will leave it -Alomomla- with roughly half its hp, thanks to using knock off unless Heracross gets a critical hit none of its moves will be able to ko Alomomola, which in turn will allow it use wish. Now this is where Alomomola separates itself from its competition, as unlike most other wish passers it does not need use protect to stay healthy, simply switch out to a relevant counter or check which will in turn allow Alomomola to recover 33.3% of its health and the new Pokemon you switch in, thanks to wish will recover 267 which, more often than not bring it back to full health. It is probably hard to actually see the benefits of being able to wish pass like this until you try it for yourself but I can assure you this is an extremely effective niche that Alomomola is only able to utilise.

Finally another big benefit to Alomomola possessing regenerator and wish is that again unlike its competitors Alomomola is not completely neutured by knock off. Unlike Vaporean, Florges, Chansey and Umbreon, Alomomola thanks to regenerator is not remotely phased by losing leftovers, as if used correctly even if it has lost its leftovers, the recovery it gains from switching out completely compensates for the lack of residual recovery.

Conclusion: As I have mentioned before it is difficult to see the benefits of using Alomomola until you actually use it yourself and while it it may not be as universally bulky as Chansey, Vaporeon and Umbreon and it might not have as effective typing as Florges. It is the only wish passers that possess Knock off and regenerator and out of the pokemon listed above it is by far the best physical wall. Because of these traits I am nominating Alomomola for A- rank or B+ rank

 

[Ununhexium]

I would like to talk about Alomomola a Pokemon that I feel is severely underrated to the point where it has not even been given a spot on the list. I have been using Alomomola extensively and in my opinion it is an absolutely a great Pokemon that definitely deserves to be either A- or B+.

First off before I start let me just say that without actually using Alomomola and having a well developed team I completely appreciate that it is probably going to be incredibly hard for you to justify my reasoning as to why Alomomola deserves such a high rank. Alomomola is not like chansey or Florges, While it can be easily placed on most teams it is definitely more effective on a team that has been well thought out and developed, furthermore do not be fooled into thinking Alomomola is an easy Pokemon to use, while yes it may predominantly be a wall and wish passer it thanks to regenerator it plays completely different to other wish passers.

This is not easy to articulate and I do not want to sound condescending, but if after reading my argument as to why I think Alomomola should be ranked at either A- or B+ please watch this replay: which I think will help highlight just how good Alomomola is.

Why Alomomola?: Bulk. With the large amounts of new physical attackers that have invaded the UU metagame a pokemon that can handle an onslaught of physical attacks is desperately needed I believe Alomomola is that Pokemon as its physical bulk is literally unmatched, while yes its overall walling capability is offset by its weak special bulk thanks to its tremendous HP, which is the fifth highest in the game and regenerator it has no problem tanking weak special attacks.

Alomomola's optimum EV spread is 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef. With maximum EVs in HP and Def Alomomola bulk is incredible take a look at some of the damage calculations below.

Choiced Scarfed Heracross
252+ Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 174-205 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 2.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Life orbed Mienshao
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 224-265 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 226-268 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Sword Dance Hawlucha
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 306-361 (57.3 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 196-232 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Choice Band Heracross
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 261-307 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see from the damage calculations Alomomola's physical bulk is ridiculous most of the tiers strongest physical attackers cannot bypass its defences without some sort of boosting item

Why Alomomola?: Movepool. While Alomomola's movepool is far from exspansive it has just the right moves to stop it from becoming completely useless, once it has switched in.

Knock off. with the new game mechanics is probably one of the most annoying moves, however thanks to said changes it becomes a great tool in Alomomola's arsenal. Looking back at the damage calculations above, even with boosting items some of the tiers strongest attackers can just about manage to 3hko Alomomola, take their items away and thanks to having two forms of reliable recovery it becomes nigh impossible to defeat Alomomola on the physical side without a Crit.

Scald. While many people see scald as the most infuriating move ever, it is a Godsend to Alomomola as the high chance of burn can completely cripple a physical attacker, as a result set up sweepers like Hawlucha will definitely struggle to set up on Alomomola as a resulting burn will completely stop it in its tracks

Wish. Wish Is perhaps the most important move in Alomomala's move pool as without it there would be no point in using it. Alomomola's wishs are the second largest in the tiers after chanseys but thanks to having an arguably better typing that provides more resistances and an entirely different movepool the two pokemon definitely differentiate themselves from each other.

Why Alomomola?:Regenerator. Alomomola's access to regenerator combined with its bulk and movepool is in my opinion its defining factor and unique selling point. Without regenerator Alomomola would hands down be a NU pokemon. Wish, Regenerator and its bulk is what make Alomomola such a difficult defensive pokemon to defeat, this is because unlike chansey, florges and vaporean the tiers premier wish passes, after using wish thanks to regenerator Alomomola is able essential heal itself and another member of the team. While that might sound like an anti climax just take a moment to think about the benefits.

Firstly one of the biggest problems wish passers have is that once they reach a certain level of health they slowly start to loose momentum, as you are forced to juggle between keeping them healthy and the rest of the team. As the match enters mid to late game we all know just how difficult using a wish passer is, one wrong prediction and you could loose your cleric and find yourself with a gapping hole in your team. Alomomola is a bit different thanks to regenerator as unlike other wish passers it plays more like a scarfed pokemon, it comes in then more often than not switches out in the next turn. For example say it is up against a banded Heracross that uses close combat, Alomomola can tank the first hit and proceed to use knock off which will leave it -Alomomla- with roughly half its hp, thanks to using knock off unless Heracross gets a critical hit none of its moves will be able to ko Alomomola, which in turn will allow it use wish. Now this is where Alomomola separates itself from its competition, as unlike most other wish passers it does not need use protect to stay healthy, simply switch out to a relevant counter or check which will in turn allow Alomomola to recover 33.3% of its health and the new Pokemon you switch in, thanks to wish will recover 267 which, more often than not bring it back to full health. It is probably hard to actually see the benefits of being able to wish pass like this until you try it for yourself but I can assure you this is an extremely effective niche that Alomomola is only able to utilise.

Finally another big benefit to Alomomola possessing regenerator and wish is that again unlike its competitors Alomomola is not completely neutured by knock off. Unlike Vaporean, Florges, Chansey and Umbreon, Alomomola thanks to regenerator is not remotely phased by losing leftovers, as if used correctly even if it has lost its leftovers, the recovery it gains from switching out completely compensates for the lack of residual recovery.

Conclusion: As I have mentioned before it is difficult to see the benefits of using Alomomola until you actually use it yourself and while it it may not be as universally bulky as Chansey, Vaporeon and Umbreon and it might not have as effective typing as Florges. It is the only wish passers that possess Knock off and regenerator and out of the pokemon listed above it is by far the best physical wall. Because of these traits I am nominating Alomomola for A- rank or B+ rank

That is quite the explanation. The major downfall with alomomola is its low SpDef. I'm not saying that argument is invalid (it actually makes a ton of sense) but i would say B to B- rank because the low SpDef

EDIT: you also said it was hard to use so...

 

[mertyville]

I would add into Alomomola something as well. It's physical bulk is already pretty impressive, but it can take some hits from the special side as well with max. investment

252+ SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 399-469 (74.7 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Sure, Latios is not in UU, but that should show how bulky it can be already.

 

[RufflesPro]

If I'd use Alomomola I'd use Protect/Toxic/Wish/Knock Off as I don't see Scald is better than protect, b/c Protect will stall Toxic, give you lefties, and secure wish. So it's more like either Knock Off or Scald.

-1 252+ Atk Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 109-130 (32.6 - 38.9%) -- 10% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 159-187 (29.7 - 35%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Alomomola is actually physically bulkier than a Qwilfish factoring Intimidate. Wow, that's something. But Krookodile has more bulk factoring intimidate, but then again, cannot pass wishes ...

Alomomola can knock off for utility, pass huge wishes (Bigger than Florge's, but smaller than Chansey's), stall w/ Toxic, the only good thing it has over Chansey is the better physical bulk, Knock Off, and Regenarator. (Even though Chansey can Seismic Toss, T-wave, set-up rocks, and Heal Bell).

Honestly Alomomola just doesn't bring enough support (Lacking Heal bell is the most major) to be A- or B+, I think Alomomola should be B-, as if you invest in Physical Defense, your Special Defense is very lackluster.

Qwilfish on the other hand, can pass double status, T-Wave + Toxic, unlike Alomomola, it is NOT a set-up fodder as Haze is awesome, can set up Spikes, ,has amazing D-Bond, surprising Taunt, and the only inferiority is the lack of a stable recovery, as Qwilfish's best mean of recovery is Pain Split.

Now what other have mentioned on 4MSS:

Qwilfish can effectively eliminate Walls, Stalling pokemons, Physical Sweepers, or even some specific pokemons depending on your set. For example, all you need is T-wave, Pain Split, and Haze to effectively remove physical sweepers, Waterfall/Poison Jab is just used when the opponent refuses to switch.

To get walls, all you need to run is Toxic, Pain Split, Taunt, and Spikes. This same set also outstalls a lot of pokemons.

What I like about Qwilfish, is that it can efficiently eliminate a lot of T-Wave weak sweeper and slower T-wave immune pokemon. For example, your team is getting wrecked by Megazone? Just use D-Bond. Meinshao? T-Wave + Waterfall/Poison Jab. Hydreigon? Run 252/252+, T-wave, the D-Bond. And so on.

Qwilfish may get stopped by Taunt if you are not running Waterfall/Poison Jab, but that goes to every support pokemon.

Being immune Toxic/Poison is also very helpful

I think Qwilfish is solid B- rank

 

[eggman62]

That is quite the explanation. The major downfall with alomomola is its low SpDef. I'm not saying that argument is invalid (it actually makes a ton of sense) but i would say B to B- rank because the low SpDef

EDIT: you also said it was hard to use so...

Thanks for the like. While I completely understand that Alomomola's Spdef is low, Florges which is an A ranked pokemon, when uninvested in physical bulk has roughly around the same amount of special bulk as Alomomola -if you factor in its high base hp- when it too is uninvested, and while Florges has a better typing it does not have regenerator, which as I have mentioned before helps Alomomola to shrug of weaker special attacks. furthermore special attacks have been reduced which is big boost to Alomomola.

I'm experimenting with EVs and while a spread of 4HP, 252Def, 252Sdef does detract from its physical bulk it does on the other hand allow it survive a timid thunderbolt from Zapdos.

Lool let me just reiterate, the reason why I believe Alomomola is such a viable defensive pokemon is because unlike its competitors it can fulfil so many different roles with just one set. Alomomola is best played like any other regenerator pokemon and only wall if you are facing a threat that no other member of your team can counter.

Finally when I say Alomomola is hard to use I mean that for you to get the best out of it, it needs to be used on a well thought out team, as unlike offer wish passers it cannot just be thrown onto any team because as I have mentioned before while it functions really well as a wall, unless Alomomola is against a threat it has a type advantage against, it should only be in for a maximum of 3 turns.

I am going to use the same example as before, but against a threat like a banded Heracross, Alomomola should first use knock off thereby reducing the damage Heracross can do. On the next turn use wish as regardless of whether the opponent switches or attacks you will still maintain momentum, as if they attack Alomomola, the damage of that turn will be recovered by regenerator when you switch out the following turn and if they switch you are essentially getting a free U-turn but instead of doing damage you are able to heal the Pokemon you switch in and in the background Alomomola will gain back some of its health.