If Tera is such a fundamentally broken mechanic that it requires a ban, surely games in which Tera isn’t a factor shouldn’t exist? I don’t think this is a one off either, ive played plenty of games in which Tera had little or no impact on the outcome.
I don't know what you mean by "plenty" but I rarely have a battle like the one I posted.
More often than not, Tera completely changes the course of the game, or is a huge part of the end game.
Once again, I'll quote Srn's
post about Tera: "Ultimately, tera just introduces too much variance into the game. This is a difficult concept to illustrate"
(Btw, has any pro-tera forum lurker actually read this post? Seriously?)
Tera isn't obviously broken. It doesn't break the game. Sometimes, yes, it's barely even a factor.
I don't fault anyone who doesn't see how tera is harming the meta.
Knowing it's broken is another skill set entirely.
In fact, knowing what's broken is so difficult even top tier players who have been proven to be excellent at the game still get it wrong.
There were top players who swore Wake was OP af.
There were top players who wanted to keep Kyu last gen.
And that's just mons. We have precedents set for banning mons and generally you can feel it out.
With Tera, we have nothing to go off of.
D-Max was comically broken so that was obvious.
On a scale to 1-10 we can give it a solid10.
I'd give Z moves a 6 out of 10 on brokenness.
Megas I say 5.
Tera.. honestly is at an 8 for me.
To some it could seem like a 6 or 7 and that's fine.
There's a thin line here, to be sure.
And I don't think anyone who falls on the other side is a moron, they just don't share the same perspective.
The problem is, my perspective has a lot of intelligent breakdowns on why tera is more broken than competitive.
The other perspective is using emotion and subjective reasoning.. "It's fun, I like it, at least it's not gen 8" and don't really have counter points to Srn's post.
But again, you don't even need counter points. Just stand by the fact that you think it's fun and I'll respect that. I don't think it's fun, and I'm just asking for the same level of respect.
That isn't vitriol. Calling it vitriol is an over exaggerated irrational response in the same way that saying to remove freeze, para, and sleep is the only way forward because you think it makes you sound better in your argument against luck. If you think someone saying bullshit is a terrible aggressive thing to say then you've never worked around other people before and take things too personally but you're projecting that onto everyone else. You're also full of shit for reducing Tera down to "it's fun lol" and saying the side you're on is uncounterable because guessing in a game is bad. Pokemon is never going to be chess so no one should discuss it as if luck stops it from reaching it's full potential. Your posts went from I hate Tera to guys we can only nerf luck to fix the game. Gtfo outta here with that boohooing and hyperbolic responses
You misunderstood. I was referencing posts that literal call me an unhinged psycho for being anti-tera lmao.
I was def not talking about Alternator, that dude is v level-headed and intelligent.
Like I said above, if your argument is more than "it's fun" then take a look at this
post and give us a breakdown of concise rebuttals.
"It's fun" is literally enough dude. But if you care enough to give it a shot please do so as I am v curious.
So, ban things that generate free turns, OK. Beyond the status conditions you named, we'd also need to remove flinch moves, Encore, and Taunt - all of which serve to deny turns.
A flinch ban nukes the following competitively useful moves (note: some are primarily from lower tiers, but they'll be impacted by a policy change like this, too): Air Slash, Dark Pulse, Double Iron Bash, Fake Out, Fiery Wrath, Icicle Crash, Iron Head, Triple Arrows, Waterfall, Zen Headbutt, and the assorted X Fang moves. If we just ban the status while allowing the moves (which completely abandons any pretense of simulating cart play, but that's just collateral I guess) then half-ish stay used, but the mons that are relying on them are noticeably nerfed - only three of those moves have more than 80 BP, the flinch chance is a major part of their balancing.
Banning Encore is a buff to setup sweepers, and simultaneously a nerf to defensive mons that rely on it to handle those setup moves. Banning Taunt removes one of the primary tools of stallbreakers, and with a good selection of quality Unaware mons, it'd probably end up leading to something else being banned to allow the meta to breath. Both deny the opponent agency, and both provide at least one free turn even more reliably than paralysis or confusion.
There is no consistent policy where we start modding the base game like this without massive collateral damage, and I repeat: what we're left with isn't Pokemon. It's not even an OM, it's a brand new game.
Flinch is a secondary effect which again, as you saw, I said I'm fine with. Please stop putting words in my mouth, unless you are just doing it accidentally.
Encore and Taunt, again, are fine, since those free turns have been earned by skillful play.
Next time before you build a strawman then take time burning it down, make sure you read my posts carefully.
Since I do respect you as a player and a good presence here in the forums I would actually like to see your point of view on how a full para and Frz makes the game better. I'm not saying call it a kid's game, or a luck game, I'm saying, technically, how is getting full Para 3 times in a row and losing a 75 turn game more fun than if that wasn't a factor?
If you don't mind, I'd really like to go over Spore as well.
Right now we don't have much that can switch into Spore, and it's also easy to take advantage of.
If your Spore switch in is Gold, and u can't really afford to have a mon asleep for 3 turns, then you're obv going Gold and thus I can take advantage of that with ease.
I feel like I could get you on my side with banning Spore at the v least man.
We could even take this to private messages or something so we don't clog up this forum, but the only reason I brought up my take about how free turns are broken is how much ppl were talking about Dire Claw.
Again, this game is heavily modded and can not be recreated on cart anyway as it now stands.
Dire Claw may be able to sleep more than 1 mon on cart, but not on PS!
If you're inclined to answer another question, my last one would be, how realistic is the "must be recreated on cart" rule?
No one is playing Smogon rules 6v6 singles on cart. They're not EV/IV training mons to bring to an unranked, friendly cart battle.. they're doing that for VGC and online play.
Anyway, you don't have to answer any of these obviously.
I don't mean to derail chat, we have so much other stuff to talk about than random hypotheticals.
However, it's interesting there is legitimate discussion about Light Clay, for example.
LC has been abused and exploited for years now, but we as a community never looked into it for some reason, or if someone did post about it back them, I'm sure it got a bunch of hate lmao.
That's all I'm saying. It shouldn't take literal decades to figure out we can make this game slightly better in small but meaningful ways.
It shouldn't be that big of a deal to experiment and play around with certain elements of the game.