Say, where’s my mans Overqwil? I already made a team on its niche as a powerful rain sweeper with good defensive utility! It definetly deserves to be somewhere on the lower end of this list!
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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Man reading this thread...I wish people wouldn't constantly be at each other's throats whenever Tera is even mentioned. Like, are you all unable to have a normal disagreement on whether you think a mechanic is good or not? At this point it's better to just agree to disagree as your opinions are fundamentally different. But at least learn to handle disagreements like actual mature adults instead of chomping at the bit the moment someone dares to disagree.
Not every disagreement has to become some full blown argument. Perhaps simply discuss your disagreements, yet try to see why the opposite side may have their points of view and once again, agree to disagree. I know this is the internet, but that doesn't mean you suddenly aren't able to have productive discussions with people about opposing viewpoints.
Not every disagreement has to become some full blown argument. Perhaps simply discuss your disagreements, yet try to see why the opposite side may have their points of view and once again, agree to disagree. I know this is the internet, but that doesn't mean you suddenly aren't able to have productive discussions with people about opposing viewpoints.
We have begun voting on two Pokemon that received overwhelming support in the SV OU tiering survey.
The other Pokémon will still be voted on this weekend as well!
Let me guess: Chien-Pao and Zamazenta-Crowned?
no, it's hisuian Avalugg and carbink
carbink walls chien pao and OHKOs in return with body press - chien pao is so weak why would it be voted on
ok but what if instead lf banning hisuian avalugg we just banned mountain gale
W
Was pretty disappointed not to see both Overqwil & Enamorus-T. Both mons are genuinely good in OU.
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while I do agree the move is broken, since I swear it flinches me 99% the time it gets to use the move, I think even without this move Havalugg would still be broken. The defensive stats, the amazing defense typing, as well as rapid spin to boost its already high speed, really makes it one of the top threats in OU and it forces people to run aggron to counter this monster. It warps teambuilding too much, if I don't have aggron I insta lose basically. So yea we should ban the pokemon entirely to Ubers (and hey, maybe AG as well)ok but what if instead lf banning hisuian avalugg we just banned mountain gale
ik this is an older post but in light of this statement:
which I don’t think is accurate, I’d like to ask this. If Tera is such a fundamentally broken mechanic that it requires a ban, surely games in which Tera isn’t a factor shouldn’t exist? I don’t think this is a one off either, ive played plenty of games in which Tera had little or no impact on the outcome.
I pop Heatran open with Expert Belt Samurott-H. Samurott-H lives at least one and often 2 switch-ins, then 2-OHKOes with Razor Shell.
If Heatran goes Tera Grass and traps and takes down Samurott-H, I play bulky offence the most often, so I revenge Tran with something else.
Samurott-H also switches into Slowking-G, Skeledirge, non-Low Kick Kingambit, and non-Scarf, non-Focus Blast Gholdengo at least once and blows them up (still 2HKOes Skeledirge while burned as long as Skeledirge doesn't Tera). If things go south, Samurott-H at least has priority to go "Carpe diem" with, and the chip on Chien-Pao might matter.
In weirder metas and in weirder moments, and perhaps even in vanilla OU if I can build a team with it, Assault Vest Goodra-H is a great Heatran switch-in that opponents don't expect to have that difficult a time dealing with (Heatran Earth Power only 4HKOes, while Goodra-H can use Earthquake). Goodra-H also OHKOes the premier Fairies with Heavy Slam, is a Water resist (OK against Choice Band Urshifu-R with team support, more solid against Rain), and can 2HKO Corviknight with Fire Blast.
It's common consensus that Zamazenta-Crowned and Pao are both crazy broken. But it surprises me that some people aren't putting Zamazenta-Hero in that category as well. Both Zamas are beyond broken and has an extremely unhealthy restricting presence in the tier. Being forced to run Skeledirge, Dozo or Haze Pex to not auto-lose to it is sickening.
Answers like Zapdos are luck reliant and even then, you're 2HKO'd or nearly 2HKO'd by body press after just 1 or 2 boosts. Given their insane bulk and tera potential, these checks can't do enough damage back in return to kill it a lot of the times.
The defense drops from Crunch also make Gholdengo a non-answer. Even Zama hero doesn't take enough from phy def Gholdengo to make Ghold a check. It can just spam crunch, fishing for def drops, and can even set up a sub on a recover.
Offensively, there are no reliable checks or ways of dealing with both the Zamas. And outside of these select few "checks", the Zamas steamroll everything else with Iron Press.
Zama Hero also has a very viable CB set that breaks it's typical checks with Future Sight support while also serving as a blanket check to a plethora of threats AND as speed control.
Zamazenta-Hero needs to be on the quick ban chopping block, I'd say even above Pao. At least with Chien Pao, you have more check options including offensive ones like Urshifu and Azu. It's incredibly frail so it can't switch in much while being extremely weak to hazards in a highly hazard centric meta. Plus, anything faster that doesn't die to Banded Shard or Sucker can be a check.
Answers like Zapdos are luck reliant and even then, you're 2HKO'd or nearly 2HKO'd by body press after just 1 or 2 boosts. Given their insane bulk and tera potential, these checks can't do enough damage back in return to kill it a lot of the times.
The defense drops from Crunch also make Gholdengo a non-answer. Even Zama hero doesn't take enough from phy def Gholdengo to make Ghold a check. It can just spam crunch, fishing for def drops, and can even set up a sub on a recover.
Offensively, there are no reliable checks or ways of dealing with both the Zamas. And outside of these select few "checks", the Zamas steamroll everything else with Iron Press.
Zama Hero also has a very viable CB set that breaks it's typical checks with Future Sight support while also serving as a blanket check to a plethora of threats AND as speed control.
Zamazenta-Hero needs to be on the quick ban chopping block, I'd say even above Pao. At least with Chien Pao, you have more check options including offensive ones like Urshifu and Azu. It's incredibly frail so it can't switch in much while being extremely weak to hazards in a highly hazard centric meta. Plus, anything faster that doesn't die to Banded Shard or Sucker can be a check.
Zamazenta-Hero does technically have more counterplay, as the substitute set can really get annoyed by toxic spikes, and it really doesn't wanna switch into glowking future sights. Both things crowned isn't even phased by. I did give hero a 4 as maybe in the future or when dlc rolls around it could be balanced here
So I agree that Zamazenta-Hero is banworthy personally. It’s a small step behind Zamazenta-Crowned maybe, but it’s too strong for OU.
We could not justify including it in today’s vote because the community survey score is a lot lower than Zamazenta-Crowned — and this is the only way we could justify voting again so promptly, but I can promise it will be voted on this weekend (likely Saturday) and having a few days of it in the tier without the competition of Zamazenta-Crowned (if it’s banned) will hopefully open some eyes.
That isn't vitriol. Calling it vitriol is an over exaggerated irrational response in the same way that saying to remove freeze, para, and sleep is the only way forward because you think it makes you sound better in your argument against luck. If you think someone saying bullshit is a terrible aggressive thing to say then you've never worked around other people before and take things too personally but you're projecting that onto everyone else. You're also full of shit for reducing Tera down to "it's fun lol" and saying the side you're on is uncounterable because guessing in a game is bad. Pokemon is never going to be chess so no one should discuss it as if luck stops it from reaching it's full potential. Your posts went from I hate Tera to guys we can only nerf luck to fix the game. Gtfo outta here with that boohooing and hyperbolic responses
So, ban things that generate free turns, OK. Beyond the status conditions you named, we'd also need to remove flinch moves, Encore, and Taunt - all of which serve to deny turns.
A flinch ban nukes the following competitively useful moves (note: some are primarily from lower tiers, but they'll be impacted by a policy change like this, too): Air Slash, Dark Pulse, Double Iron Bash, Fake Out, Fiery Wrath, Icicle Crash, Iron Head, Triple Arrows, Waterfall, Zen Headbutt, and the assorted X Fang moves. If we just ban the status while allowing the moves (which completely abandons any pretense of simulating cart play, but that's just collateral I guess) then half-ish stay used, but the mons that are relying on them are noticeably nerfed - only three of those moves have more than 80 BP, the flinch chance is a major part of their balancing.
Banning Encore is a buff to setup sweepers, and simultaneously a nerf to defensive mons that rely on it to handle those setup moves. Banning Taunt removes one of the primary tools of stallbreakers, and with a good selection of quality Unaware mons, it'd probably end up leading to something else being banned to allow the meta to breath. Both deny the opponent agency, and both provide at least one free turn even more reliably than paralysis or confusion.
There is no consistent policy where we start modding the base game like this without massive collateral damage, and I repeat: what we're left with isn't Pokemon. It's not even an OM, it's a brand new game.
what, they didnt have aqua jet? probably that shitty trailblaze set.
I don’t know if this was joking or not, but just to set aside any sort of worry or confusion: None of the Rotom forms learn their extra move by TM. They never have. They’ve always learned it as you change your Rotom into the form. Just because the Pokémon can’t learn the TM doesn’t mean they don’t get the move.
Also, I know some things take a while to get discovered, but the Rotom-As not having their one extra STAB move is something you’d hear a ton about immediately on like day -2 of release lol.
Just gonna interact with some opinions on random mons
Magearna but edgy, that's it really, if you see one on the ladder on 1800 hundreds, it's probably Vert, and you're probably losing
I agree on Lily that defensive sets are pretty slept on tera water seems like the best choice for Urshifu, but fairy and tera blast is fun
Forretress hard counters this thing, and I'm not fucking kidding, outside that it's decent role compression and stuff, tbh, I don't feel too strong about it in any regard
Tera grass tera blast is so much fun, but I think I'm gonna try to go with Flash Cannon for the birds, you guys are crying too hard over toxic
Eventually people are gonna just go tera normal hyper beam just for the power move, I think volcarona benefits from every single type
the Nasty plot 3 attacks or the sets with grass knot to lure tusk and donzo are cringe, Smackdown on the other hand
stall is gonna be fine after a few bans, don't worry people
ass, now you really need Iron Defense to try to check all you need to check, It's still gonna be top 10 most used mons due to the role compression in theory, but I would rather sit through every Adam Sandler movie than use this thing again
Gonna drop to UU, get banned and be there, its a great hard core stall breaker, but that's it really. With that being said, god this mon is so much fun, I fucking love it lmao.
this thing is legit, and the only reason people are not bitching about it is because sneasler is in the tier, so imagine when somebody uses sneasler + gargnacl + volcanion + slowking + a hex mon + a sweeper. Oh no, I accidentally revealed what's gonna dominate the meta in a few weeks, uh pretend you didn't see anything
the moment chien pao gets banned this thing is going back in top 10 usage, he is not even worried look, he is cooking pasta and taking a nap, it's all fine
banded tera fighting mach punch has a good roll to ohko ursaluna and bypasses trick room so uh, yeah
I will never see what's the appeal
probably legit in this meta unironically, this thing is actually decent and has topped the ladder before, probably worth re-using
underrated, some teams just fold to this thing, specs is killer, booster is crazy, and It's still the best gravity user in the game so uh, yeah
So I need to make an update on this thing, It's still decent and can still work theoretically, the problem is that the only actually decent hazard remover is tusk, so pairing the 2 gives you 2 fairy and psychic weakness, ID leech seed stabs seems like the way
anyway, ill go back to cooking
Magearna but edgy, that's it really, if you see one on the ladder on 1800 hundreds, it's probably Vert, and you're probably losing I agree on Lily that defensive sets are pretty slept on tera water seems like the best choice for Urshifu, but fairy and tera blast is fun Forretress hard counters this thing, and I'm not fucking kidding, outside that it's decent role compression and stuff, tbh, I don't feel too strong about it in any regard Tera grass tera blast is so much fun, but I think I'm gonna try to go with Flash Cannon for the birds, you guys are crying too hard over toxic Eventually people are gonna just go tera normal hyper beam just for the power move, I think volcarona benefits from every single type the Nasty plot 3 attacks or the sets with grass knot to lure tusk and donzo are cringe, Smackdown on the other hand stall is gonna be fine after a few bans, don't worry people ass, now you really need Iron Defense to try to check all you need to check, It's still gonna be top 10 most used mons due to the role compression in theory, but I would rather sit through every Adam Sandler movie than use this thing again Gonna drop to UU, get banned and be there, its a great hard core stall breaker, but that's it really. With that being said, god this mon is so much fun, I fucking love it lmao. this thing is legit, and the only reason people are not bitching about it is because sneasler is in the tier, so imagine when somebody uses sneasler + gargnacl + volcanion + slowking + a hex mon + a sweeper. Oh no, I accidentally revealed what's gonna dominate the meta in a few weeks, uh pretend you didn't see anything the moment chien pao gets banned this thing is going back in top 10 usage, he is not even worried look, he is cooking pasta and taking a nap, it's all fine banded tera fighting mach punch has a good roll to ohko ursaluna and bypasses trick room so uh, yeah I will never see what's the appeal probably legit in this meta unironically, this thing is actually decent and has topped the ladder before, probably worth re-using underrated, some teams just fold to this thing, specs is killer, booster is crazy, and It's still the best gravity user in the game so uh, yeah So I need to make an update on this thing, It's still decent and can still work theoretically, the problem is that the only actually decent hazard remover is tusk, so pairing the 2 gives you 2 fairy and psychic weakness, ID leech seed stabs seems like the wayanyway, ill go back to cooking
lmao someone did say it was used to great success, so ig it depends on matchup, doesn't necessarily mean it's shit if it loses to a specific matchup
I don't know what you mean by "plenty" but I rarely have a battle like the one I posted.
More often than not, Tera completely changes the course of the game, or is a huge part of the end game.
Once again, I'll quote Srn's post about Tera: "Ultimately, tera just introduces too much variance into the game. This is a difficult concept to illustrate"
(Btw, has any pro-tera forum lurker actually read this post? Seriously?)
Tera isn't obviously broken. It doesn't break the game. Sometimes, yes, it's barely even a factor.
I don't fault anyone who doesn't see how tera is harming the meta.
Knowing it's broken is another skill set entirely.
In fact, knowing what's broken is so difficult even top tier players who have been proven to be excellent at the game still get it wrong.
There were top players who swore Wake was OP af.
There were top players who wanted to keep Kyu last gen.
And that's just mons. We have precedents set for banning mons and generally you can feel it out.
With Tera, we have nothing to go off of.
D-Max was comically broken so that was obvious.
On a scale to 1-10 we can give it a solid10.
I'd give Z moves a 6 out of 10 on brokenness.
Megas I say 5.
Tera.. honestly is at an 8 for me.
To some it could seem like a 6 or 7 and that's fine.
There's a thin line here, to be sure.
And I don't think anyone who falls on the other side is a moron, they just don't share the same perspective.
The problem is, my perspective has a lot of intelligent breakdowns on why tera is more broken than competitive.
The other perspective is using emotion and subjective reasoning.. "It's fun, I like it, at least it's not gen 8" and don't really have counter points to Srn's post.
But again, you don't even need counter points. Just stand by the fact that you think it's fun and I'll respect that. I don't think it's fun, and I'm just asking for the same level of respect.
You misunderstood. I was referencing posts that literal call me an unhinged psycho for being anti-tera lmao.
I was def not talking about Alternator, that dude is v level-headed and intelligent.
Like I said above, if your argument is more than "it's fun" then take a look at this post and give us a breakdown of concise rebuttals.
"It's fun" is literally enough dude. But if you care enough to give it a shot please do so as I am v curious.
Flinch is a secondary effect which again, as you saw, I said I'm fine with. Please stop putting words in my mouth, unless you are just doing it accidentally.
Encore and Taunt, again, are fine, since those free turns have been earned by skillful play.
Next time before you build a strawman then take time burning it down, make sure you read my posts carefully.
Since I do respect you as a player and a good presence here in the forums I would actually like to see your point of view on how a full para and Frz makes the game better. I'm not saying call it a kid's game, or a luck game, I'm saying, technically, how is getting full Para 3 times in a row and losing a 75 turn game more fun than if that wasn't a factor?
If you don't mind, I'd really like to go over Spore as well.
Right now we don't have much that can switch into Spore, and it's also easy to take advantage of.
If your Spore switch in is Gold, and u can't really afford to have a mon asleep for 3 turns, then you're obv going Gold and thus I can take advantage of that with ease.
I feel like I could get you on my side with banning Spore at the v least man.
We could even take this to private messages or something so we don't clog up this forum, but the only reason I brought up my take about how free turns are broken is how much ppl were talking about Dire Claw.
Again, this game is heavily modded and can not be recreated on cart anyway as it now stands.
Dire Claw may be able to sleep more than 1 mon on cart, but not on PS!
If you're inclined to answer another question, my last one would be, how realistic is the "must be recreated on cart" rule?
No one is playing Smogon rules 6v6 singles on cart. They're not EV/IV training mons to bring to an unranked, friendly cart battle.. they're doing that for VGC and online play.
Anyway, you don't have to answer any of these obviously.
I don't mean to derail chat, we have so much other stuff to talk about than random hypotheticals.
However, it's interesting there is legitimate discussion about Light Clay, for example.
LC has been abused and exploited for years now, but we as a community never looked into it for some reason, or if someone did post about it back them, I'm sure it got a bunch of hate lmao.
That's all I'm saying. It shouldn't take literal decades to figure out we can make this game slightly better in small but meaningful ways.
It shouldn't be that big of a deal to experiment and play around with certain elements of the game.
Bax has strong competition with Urshifu who has a way more spamable stab combo, will get more usage but Urshifu is going to be the premiere physical breaker.Just gonna interact with some opinions on random mons
anyway, ill go back to cooking
Why are you complaining about vibes and respect when you've said people who disagree with you are using emotional reasoning and "getting it wrong"? You can't insult people's intelligence and then cry foul when they are (reasonably) reactive to that. It's plainly wrong to think that your opinions are driven only by facts and others are driven only by bias.
On Zamazenta: It is absolutely ban worthy and very very stupid. It snowballs extremely quickly and is hard to force out with that speed. BUT, for people struggling with it, may I suggest: Enamorus Therian. Quadruple resists body press with base 78/115 defenses. Has STAB Fairy moves (I run draining kiss on calm mind sets) and has mystical fire for the steel type switch and psychic for pex. It's not a hard counter, as it is extremely slow and can be overwhelmed, but it is an answer that hasn't been talked about and I feel is underrated.
On an unrelated note: the genies have no fucking moves now
On an unrelated note: the genies have no fucking moves now
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