CAP 12 CAP 1 - Part 4 -(Stat Limits)

[reachzero]

Here we will discuss CAP1's stat limits.

So far, CAP1 is:

Concept: Momentum
General Description: This will be a Pokemon that can be utilized to gain or regain momentum for a player's team at any point in the match as its primary function.
Justification: Gen. 5 is a very powerful metagame. As such, most battles are won by the smarter strategist who can best maneuver around his/her opponent's onslaught to gain even a single turn's advantage, potentially clinching them the match. This process of gaining and regaining momentum is most often the defining element that makes a winner and a loser out of a single Pokemon battle. Any top player in this metagame should agree that momentum is the most crucial element in any given match; however, "momentum" itself is a rather vaguely defined term that is never really explored in concrete terms. Is it keeping opposing teams on the defensive? Forcing switches? Good prediction? Spamming U-turn? These have all been approaches to achieving momentum, but they are also player-side and largely synonymous with "strategy," as opposed to Pokemon-side and regarding a Pokemon's role on the team. Certainly there are threats like Ferrothorn/Gliscor (defensive) and Scizor/Latios/Voltlos, etc., etc. (offensive) that can achieve momentum as we know it, but there is no current niche for a "momentum Pokemon" because the concept has been purely delegated to players and not to Pokemon.
Questions to be Answered:
-How do we define momentum in terms of competitive Pokemon? What factors make current Pokemon able to achieve momentum and how can we incorporate that information into a successful CAP?
-How do different styles of play (Weather-based offense, stall, bulky offense, etc.) use momentum to achieve their goals and how can our CAP play to those strategies in an effort to take their momentum away?
-What type of traditional role (sweeper, tank, wall, support) would a Pokemon like this most resemble? Would it have to be able to fit more than one of these roles to fit in a variety of teams?
-How will the different playstyles be affected by the addition of a Pokemon that can regain offensive/defensive momentum at any given point? Will offensive teams play more conservatively? Will defensive teams play more recklessly? Will everything simply adapt to a new threat and move on normally?

Typing: Flying/Fighting

This is a new addition to the process of creating a Pokemon, so I strongly recommend that you read this entire OP to understand what is to be discussed in this thread.

Stat Bias Limits

Stat bias limits set the general stat bias of a Pokemon from an offensive and defensive standpoint. Stat biases are not solely for limiting stats, but they also describe the overall build of the Pokemon in offensive and defensive terms. However, the stat spread is the only part of the project that will be specifically constrained by Stat Bias Limits; the other part will be explained below. There will be four stat biases selected and a total Base Stat Rating (BSR) limit. The Stat Biases are:

Physical Tankiness (PT)

The rating of the Pokémon's physical defense.
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Physical Sweepiness (PS)

The rating of the Pokémon's physical offense.
​

Special Tankiness (ST)

The rating of the Pokémon's special defense.
​

Special Sweepiness (SS)

The rating of the Pokémon's special offense.
​

A spreadsheet for calculating the biases can be found here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3323869&postcount=4 and the formulas themselves can be found here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3313125

Because the introduction of 5th Generation has made our previous metric of BSR-movepool correlation somewhat obsolete, we will be handling movepool limitations slightly later in the process, when we are able to take ability and base stats into account.

At the end of this thread, I will be posting the ranges for Stat Biases and Base Stat Rating, depending on the arguments presented and what I think would work best.

It should be noted that this thread is NOT going to lead up to a poll. After a period of about a day or two, I will be deciding the limits that all stat spreads must conform to.

Please do not poll jump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities.

This thread will close in 24 hours.

 

[barty the beetle]

I think it should be more focused towards tankiness, but it needs to be somewhat able to return pain. Multiple offencive threats are physical, but the typing means it need some special coverage too (mainly due to Reuniclous). It should also have a average ability to fight too. And don't forget the HP too.

 

[Sambobz]

guess I am starting off the discussion. personally I think we should have a somewhat defensively minded pokemon kinda like this.
on a scale from 1 to 10
PT 7
PS 5
ST 7
SS 5

I am interested to see what comes out of this

Edit: got ninja'd by barty

also I think having symmetrical physical and special stats will help make CAP1 more unpredictable, raising it's virtual power-level with making it overpowered.

 

[sax king]

I really want to see this pokemon have some nice tanking stats. We chose these types because we felt that these resistances and immunities were important, and it would be a shame to couple those resistances with crappy defensive stats. It's not going to stop the opponent's momentum unless it is very defensive. Yet I feel that it also needs a competent (s)attack stat. It's not good enough to stop the opponent's momentum if you can't do anything in back. It doesn't need any 140 attacking stats, but I want to see something that at least works. We don't want to see it sweeping so let's not go crazy with the stats, but let's make it very defensive.

 

[zarator]

I think we should focus on Special Sweepiness (SS) for several reasons. First of all, this generation is yet again more versed towards the physical side. Gliscor and other physical walls are kinda common, and stuff like Reuniclus commonly focuses on physical bulkiness. Moreover, the most common special walls (Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Blissey) are all fighting weak.

Next we have the moves. On the special side of fighting we have the inaccurate but powerful Focus Blast, the reliable Aura Sphere, and the handy Vacuum Wave for priority (don't say Sword of Mistery please). On the special side of flying we have the annoying Air Slash with its flinch chance and the very powerful (yet inaccurate) Hurricane. Moreover, special prowess allow the use of the very useful Hidden Power.

Now, I know you may be afraid of turning this into a sweeper of some sort, but as long as this doesn't get set up moves this is not going to happen (also, if it's special sided giving it Bulk Up is a lot less controversial). And if you want to create momentum, you need some decent offenses (unless you're Ferrothorn but then again Fighting/Flying is best spent on the offense). Not something crazy, but still enough to lay the hurt on the common walls.

 

[Galladiator]

I say we focus mainly on physical sweepiness with a lesser emphasis on special tankiness. This thing's going to be taking Starmie Thunderbolts and Reuniclus Psychics, so it should at least have a semi-decent ability to tank those kinds of hits and retaliate physically.

 

[Stratos]

I'm going to basically second what has been said above, but comparable Momentum pokemon tend to be defensively capable while holding a good (s)attack stat.

As such, I believe that the bias spread should be something like:

PT: 8 (This doesn't really need to be said, but it'll be taking on many fighting types/ground types/rock types)
PS: 5 (I'm torn between it having a physical or special attack power. This thing is probably going to need U-turn, which definitely packs extra punch with physical sweepiness. On the other hand, it doesn't have much else physical to carry, as it isn't very logical for a bird pokemon to pack the punches (claws yes, but not many claws are worth a mention without STAB))
ST: 6 (It needs to take special hits but please, people, we decided not to counter reuniclus when we made our secondary type fighting. We won't be doing good against Voltlos either, and without a miracle ability we won't be taking on Venusaur, while Ninetails gets STAB Sun Fire Blast no matter what our special value. Further, Genesect usually carry BoltBeam, along with Porygon2.)
SS: 6 (On the one hand, giving this thing too much SS will turn it into a sweeper which we want to shy away from. On the other hand, I think it should have more SS than PS because of moves like HP, Windstorm, and Focus Blast all being logical special choices which could really change the momentum in this Poke's favor (Although one must consider that low accuracy moves are a stupid decision for this poke, as the number one way to lose momentum is a wasted turn.)

 

[Unlimited Breadsticks]

This looks like the kind of Pokemon that should be balanced, but have higher potential in Special Sweepiness than on the physical spectrum. Many common threats have to invest in special defense in order to cope with special threats, so we should find a way to exploit that weakness.

 

[Sambobz]

I still think we should have symmetrical offensive stats so the opponent doesn't know whats coming. causing the opponent to miss switch is huge and I think it bolsters the concept of CAP1. mixed stats are a good way to raise the offensive power level of the pokemon without giving it raw power.

 

[Thorhammer]

Both forms of Tankiness should be the first priorities, for all of the previously discussed reasons regarding the benefits of defensive momentum. However, as was also discussed, the CAP needs to be able to pose a threat to opponents in order to not lose that same momentum it's meant to gain, and it should do this with emphasis on Physical Sweepiness rather than Special Sweepiness. In order to threaten opponents with special moves, it would be rather restricted in its STAB options; the inaccurate Focus Blast and Hurricane are the most powerful special moves available of those types, and the only competitive alternatives are Aura Sphere and Air Slash.

 

[ASB]

I say it should be focused on Special Tankiness for a few reasons. It will be 2x weak to Electric, Psychic, Ice, and Flying. 3 out of these four types usually use special moves. Also, most fighting types are physical (and/or) sweepers, so it'd be cool to have a special tank.

I think its power level should be at least 9001. loljk.

 

[Limewire]

Thorhammer pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. I would prefer CAP 1 to have somewhat symmetrical offenses, but there are very few usable special Flying and Fighting moves. Focus Blast and Hurricane are very powerful but have dissapointingly low accuracy, restricting us to use Aura Sphere and Air Slash. Those two moves are decent, but Air Slash's BP leaves much to be desired. Of course, I would still like it to have some special offense so it is not completely shut down by physical walls such as Ferrothorn and Gliscor, and (sorry if I am poll-jumping) it may have some decent or great special moves to use, which is why I'm interested in a stat bias such as this:

PT: 8
PS: 6-7
ST: 7
SS: 5-6

This should allow CAP 1 to take both special and physical attacks easily, which is pretty important as we do not want it to die very easily. The special attack should be high enough to deal with physical walls and a bit more.

 

[Korski]

Tankiness:

Looking at CAP1's weaknesses to Electric, Flying, Ice, and Psychic (overwhelmingly special based) and its resistances to Bug, Dark, Fighting, and Grass (primarily physical based, and I am aware of the Ground immunity but we're talking about taking hits here), I think we should certainly focus on Physical-Tankiness as far as stats go, as this CAP really shouldn't be weathering things like Reuniclus's +1 Psychic, Specs Latios's Draco Meteors (else it would be Steel-type or Blissey), or Voltlos's Thunderbolt and should instead be focusing on taking advantage of its Physical resistances. In terms of actual limits, I'd say 180 could be an absolute maximum. I've discussed this on #cap with Reach and he's reluctant to go that high, although I will say that in this metagame it's certainly not out of the question to have something like this to switch into some heavy hitters like Garchomp and Excadrill without being 2HKO'd (without having to resort to 252/252+, i.e. with enough offensive presence to scare them off). An ability like Intimidate would mitigate this problem, but that's purely speculation.

Sweepiness:

Agreeing with those in favor of a Special Attacker here. High powered physical STABs like Brave Bird and Close Combat / Superpower are tempting and what we've always wanted, but for this concept, I don't think they ought to be necessary or encouraged. Physical CAP with good defenses won't have the offensive muscle to push through things like Skarmory, Gliscor, and Forretress, which goes against the concept completely. Going special opens the door for Hidden Power, which is a great surprise tactic on a lot of Pokemon for exploiting 4x weaknesses, not to mention how physically-based the metagame is, allowing CAP to hit more Pokemon on their more vulnerable side. Rising_Dusk and Reachzero both seemed to agree on IRC that 175 would be a good upper limit, and, playing around with Dusk's spreadsheet, I would agree with that. It encourages a more middle-of-the-road approach to balancing power and Speed, which is good, as going over 100 base Speed really limits the damage output it can achieve, thus ensuring we don't get a generic sweeper out of this.

So if I had to make recommendations for upper limits, I'd say (not sure on how these translate to 1-10 numbers, as I don't have access to R_D's spreadsheet right now):

PS: 175 - Very Good
SS: 175 - Very Good
PT: 170-80 - Very Good-Excellent
ST: 140-50 - Very Good

These numbers are pretty balanced. Keep in mind that there's no way to achieve these rankings in every category; assuredly, stat spread submissions will accommodate only one attack stat in order to stay within the limits and without going overboard on BST.

 

[More Cowbell]

PT: 6
PS: 7
ST: 8
SS: 5

Something like this is what I would say. I think that with its typing, it should be physical-oriented, because its main STAB attacks will be around there (think Brave Bird/Close Combat or something). Defensively, however, I'd make it more specially defensive, with a higher number of special Pokémon.

 

[capefeather]

This thing's going to be taking Starmie Thunderbolts and Reuniclus Psychics, so it should at least have a semi-decent ability to tank those kinds of hits and retaliate physically.

I just wanted to address this. Something like 100 HP / 115 SpD (Suicune), which reads as 199.4357 (Excellent) in special tankiness, takes 99.5% - 117.3% from +1 Reuniclus Psychic. It's a bit depressing, but I highly doubt that CAP 1 will do much to Reuniclus other than dent it, because apparently even Deoxys-A can't OHKO it with 120 STAB physical.

All that said, I think that CAP 1 should focus on bulk (i.e. both Physical Tankiness and Special Tankiness). With powerful Dragon-types like Latios and Garchomp running around and probably itching to switch into this Pokémon, it would be nice not to have the typical response be "switch to Tyranitar/Ferrothorn/Skarmory", especially considering all of these are commonly found on sand teams and/or concede momentum to a bunch of other threats. Zarator made a good argument for Special Sweepiness as far as physical vs special goes, but it seems to me that CAP 1 would have to be pretty fast to take real advantage of a special attacker oriented stat spread. CAP 1 does already have great Flying+Fighting STAB, so I don't see a PT/ST that's more than "Good" as all that necessary, especially if CAP 1 gets support moves.

EDIT: Heh, A_K has convinced me that Physical Tankiness and Special Sweepiness are the way to go. Most of the special attacking threats are pretty much out of reach now *grumble* *grumble* other than Latios, and CAP 1 is going to need all of the physical tanking prowess it can get against the likes of Landorus, Excadrill and Garchomp. I do wonder a bit about something to hit Blissey, but it's really not as important as hitting Skarmory, etc. as far as momentum goes. A physically attacking CAP may very well need to use Brave Bird, which turns out to actually matter unless the HP stat is REALLY high.

 

[jas61292]

As many people have already said, tankiness is important. Persionally I think it should be good at both forms, but more so in Physical Tankiness. The types it will generally be switching into will probably be coming more off the physical side.

On the other side, I don't think either type of Sweepiness should be as good as its tankiness, but it should be better at Special Sweepiness. Many Pokemon that it will switch into are weak on the special side. More importantly Fighting, and to a lesser extent Flying, is a type with many Physical sweepers. I think going special will make it more unique, and thus not risk being outclassed by other Pokemon.

 

[Gerard]

I agree with Zarator, in that we should focus in Special Sweepiness in the offense (not that we should make it very offensive), so it could have just enough power to stop stuff like Gliscor, Reuniclus, and most fighting types wich most of the time have a bigger Def than SpD, this could also help with the shell smashers (cloyster being the most important one has a bug Def but pattetic as big SpD) which with something like priority could stop an inminet sweep, and most of the deensive mons only try to cover their defense because of the strong physical treaths that there are, as a plus you're also immune to being burned/paralized/poisoned/damaged by their abilities (flame body/static/poison point/ironbarbs/rough skin/cursed body/etc...) which is nice, and it's true, most of the special walls are week to fighting, especially Tyranitar wwould never thing in come whie a strong fighting type is out (something that could even help you change the weather)

Physical Tankiness (7) should be a top priority being able to resist strong hits from the top treaths (most of them which are Physical) and still be able to respond to those treaths, also many Reuniclus use psysock inted of the common psyquic to not be walled so this could stand a change against him if he was a Def strong enough

Special Tankiness (6) It should be able to take a hit, but probably whit less comfort than a physical one, this could also help to predict the oponnent knowing that his physical sweeper will never defeat it no matter how he try so he has to cahnge to an special one, then you can obviously do the same and outpredict him, this also make ice beam and thunderbolt clear week point and thus make them easy to see from a mile away

Physical Sweepiness (4) we don't want a sweeper and this would make him less possible to go to an all-out-bulky-offense (this could also help with a good u-turn/volt change if it's given one)

Special Sweepiness (6) this would make your opponent more open to many attacks, while still making it posible fotr this Cap to remain unpredictable by being ablo to go Physical if it wants so, it reains immune to the secondary effecs of abilities, and still maintains a possible strong and highly unpredictable Hidden Power, the strongest moves without bad secondary effects are also Special (although they lack accuracy this could still be remedied with a nice ability or something like spec lends), because no one wants to give te opponent a free turn because you have to swich after a Close Combat/Superpower nor no one like to take huge chunks of life cause recoil (Brave Bird), as a plus, all of the types that gain SpD in the Sand (that is Rock) are week to fight attacks so theres would be no important lost of power (and why couldn't it have a signature move like Kitsunoh, for everyone saying Air Slash it's is only option)

 

[ryik7]

I think we should focus on Special Sweepiness (SS) for several reasons. First of all, this generation is yet again more versed towards the physical side. Gliscor and other physical walls are kinda common, and stuff like Reuniclus commonly focuses on physical bulkiness. Moreover, the most common special walls (Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Blissey) are all fighting weak.

Next we have the moves. On the special side of fighting we have the inaccurate but powerful Focus Blast, the reliable Aura Sphere, and the handy Vacuum Wave for priority (don't say Sword of Mistery please). On the special side of flying we have the annoying Air Slash with its flinch chance and the very powerful (yet inaccurate) Hurricane. Moreover, special prowess allow the use of the very useful Hidden Power.

Now, I know you may be afraid of turning this into a sweeper of some sort, but as long as this doesn't get set up moves this is not going to happen (also, if it's special sided giving it Bulk Up is a lot less controversial). And if you want to create momentum, you need some decent offenses (unless you're Ferrothorn but then again Fighting/Flying is best spent on the offense). Not something crazy, but still enough to lay the hurt on the common walls.

yes

pt-very gewd, physical sweepers are much more common now (8.5-9.5)
ps-not much, blissey dissapeared from most teams anyway for some reason (3-6.5)
st-whatever. (5-8)
ss-very gewd (7.25-8.5)

the numbers are rather relative anyway

what I see this guy needs is speed, but i guess thats unrelated to what were talking about

also, I do not see this poke as a sweeper, just a guy that you send in whenever you need help stopping the opponent (from what is a good question) and to leave an opening that your other pokes can utilize and shine from. (burn their eyes out!)

 

[Raikaria]

I think that there should be an overall bias to Tankiness, with a slight Bias towards Physical Tankiness. However, I feel that this CAP should be useable viva Physical Sweepiness.

Why physical? Well, I veiw this CAP as heading towards being a tank, so, it's offenses whould not be that high. If that's the case, with mometum in mind, being able to use the higher powered physical STABS such as Close Combat is useful. A bias towards physical offense is also good for U-turn.

If we go towards Special Sweepiness, not only will we have to deal with more unreliable, or far weaker STABS, but also a weaker U-turn, as Volt Change is stopped by Ground-types.

Overall, however, I am thinking of it having a decent base speed, and high defenses, while not hitting like a wet blanket. Something that could use, say, Close Combat as if forces a switch, and then U-turn out before getting hit back.

Oh, and Drill Peck exists people. Base 80 power Flying type move right there. Superior in power to Air Slash, at least, and without the drawback of Brave Bird. Shadow Ball functions perfectly well as a BP 80 move.

 

[Deck Knight]

Physical Tankiness should be the highest priority. The best elements of Flying/Fighting are its resistances to common physical attacks and the Gliscor-esque games it could play with Roost removing its neutrality to Rock attacks. Special Tankiness shouldn't be neglected outright, but it's a hard truth that Fighting/Flying simply doesn't respond that well to special attacks this generation. Taking an unSTABBed hit is a good mark, but we shouldn't expect it to survive stronger.

As far as Sweepiness, I'm more inclined to Physical Sweepiness. The problem with Special Sweepiness is you end up with fairly mediocre attacks, or attacks that directly work to the advantage of your counters. Hurricane for example works best in Rain, but Rain brings out Tornadus and, more frighteningly, Thundurus. Rain Sweepers also tend to be Water types and by proxy have strong Ice-typed attacks as well. Focus Blast has huge accuracy issues and Aura Sphere is a solid attack, but 90 BP with no other effects isn't that impressive as special attacks go. The physical side is much more interesting with Attacks like Drain Punch and Acrobatics or even Pluck that fill the middle with more niche rolls, not to mention Brick Break for taking out screens. All in all more attacks benefit the Pokemon's roll as a momentum shifter on the physical side of the spectrum than the special.

My suggested upper limits:

Physical Tankiness: 8 (Excellent)
Special Tankiness: 7 (VeryGood)
Physical Sweepiness: 7 (Very Good)
Special Sweepiness: 5 (Good)

 

[Ice-eyes]

The other advantage, of course, of going physical, is access to a decently strong Overhead Throw, which is a massive asset.

I think something along the lines of:
PT: 8
ST: 7
PS: 6-7
SS: 3-5

Obviously things change if Speed ends up as a bigger concern but it seems like CAP1 will probably end up with 70-90 Speed.

 

[Mr. Stone]

Long time lurker, first time poster in CAP. :)
I really enjoy the idea of a momentum based poke, and for something like that to work, it needs good bulkiness, and decent attacking stats on both sides. This way, it can have a wide variety of switch ins and also have a great ability to deal with whatever gets thrown its way, without having too much power. Tankiness is of utmost importance here. So for me,

PT: 8
ST: 8
PS: 5
SS: 5

 

[Dracolosse]

Fighting / Flying has been chosen as a typing to make our CAP able to reverse the tide of the match in the face of the very common Landorus, Conkeldurr or Excadrill, and as such it should have a great amount of Physical tankiness, not to mention it would help him get momentum more often in a physically based metagame.

Next is Special sweepiness, which is better than physical IMO. Aura Sphere is as reliable as it gets as a special STAB, and Air Slash is pretty awesome as wasted turns for your opponents are formidably useful to make his momentum disappear. They aren't absurdly powerful as Brave Bird / Close Combat are, which would help our CAP to avoid becoming just a generic sweeper.
I'm afraid giving CAP 1 Drain Punch, as Deck Knight mentioned, would turn it into yet another Bulk Up sweeper and that breaking screens isn't a sufficient effect to resort to such a weak STAB as Brick Break (especially is you're defensive). Plus many common pokemon have lower SpD than Def (for example, all mixed sweepers go rash/naive), and very few actually have significantly more SpD. Beating Conkeldurr, which should have been an advantage of CAp 1's typing, wouldn't be possible with Physical attacks. So Special sweepiness is definitely the way to go.

Special Tankiness should not be overlooked either, CAP needs enough of it so that a specially defensive version could be viable, if that's what your team needs due for example to a tendency to lose momentum against some special threats.

Finally Physical sweepiness should be average, only so that you can 2HKO Blissey with High Jump Kick just in case.

I would suggest :

Physical Tankiness : 8 ----To switch into physical attackers without worry

Physical Sweepiness : 5 ----Just enough to be able to strike from the physical side with high-powered moves, if needed.

Special Tankiness : 6 ---- We want to be able to take a moderately powerful Special Hit as long as its not STAB Super Effective.

Special Sweepiness : 7 ---- Hitting somewhat hard with reliable moves is important.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I would like to throw my support towards Deck Knight's suggestion as I can't come up with anything that's better than his in terms of BSR. Flying/Fighting would benefit greatly from being more physical defensive inclined considering that majority of what it's resisted to tend to be physical. Now it's special defense shouldn't be totally ignored though since being able to take a hit or two from a reasonable special attacker would be great.

It terms of move-pool it also benefit from being more on the physical side as it would have more tools to work with, both in terms of STAB moves and in coverage moves. It's supportive move-pool is neither hampered nor improved by being physical though.

 

[Bughouse]

I agree with what has been written above. Being focused on the Physical sides of offense and defense seems most logical to me. CAP 1 is not going to beat Psychic pokemon no matter how much Special Tankiness it has.

Therefore I would suggest something along the lines of:

PT: 9
PS: 8
ST: 5
SS: 4