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CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 6a - Ability Discussion
- Thread starter Fuzznip
- Start date
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I think it's less "I should've voted for ground", and more "I want something that's immune to electric, but resistant to rock, and without an ice weakness"...arguably something that would pair well, in theory, with Togekiss, but it really seems like "I want all of the good with none of the bad".
If people are gonna be like this, far as I'm concerned, CAP11 should have Cute Charm or Run Away as an ability...something that pretty much delegates Ability#2 as a must...
I'm going to go on a whim and suggest Intimidate. Why?
> You'll be able to take physical hits better if you're being baton passed in by Togekiss, such as Stone Edge and elemental punches.
> It can force switches, which lets CAP 11 either set up with something like Agility or attempt to get a quick hit in.
> It won't make CAP 11 ridiculously powerful whenever it switches into an Electric attack.
> Gyarados has relatively little synergy with this ability, unlike Motor Drive and co.
While I'm at it, I'd also like to suggest Compundeyes. 91% accurate STAB Focus Blast, as well as Blizzard and Thunder would let it destroy many of Togekiss' counters, thanks to a relatively high speed stat. Focus Blast provides a consistent option against Electric and Steel Types in general, which Togekiss usually suffers against, and destroys Weavile and Tyranitar. Blizzard and Thunder can strike back at Dragonite, Flygon and Gyarados. And if we're being really ballsy, give it Hypnosis too. It's still only 78% accurate, but sleep provides a good segue for Togekiss to start Plotting or Wishing.
> You'll be able to take physical hits better if you're being baton passed in by Togekiss, such as Stone Edge and elemental punches.
> It can force switches, which lets CAP 11 either set up with something like Agility or attempt to get a quick hit in.
> It won't make CAP 11 ridiculously powerful whenever it switches into an Electric attack.
> Gyarados has relatively little synergy with this ability, unlike Motor Drive and co.
While I'm at it, I'd also like to suggest Compundeyes. 91% accurate STAB Focus Blast, as well as Blizzard and Thunder would let it destroy many of Togekiss' counters, thanks to a relatively high speed stat. Focus Blast provides a consistent option against Electric and Steel Types in general, which Togekiss usually suffers against, and destroys Weavile and Tyranitar. Blizzard and Thunder can strike back at Dragonite, Flygon and Gyarados. And if we're being really ballsy, give it Hypnosis too. It's still only 78% accurate, but sleep provides a good segue for Togekiss to start Plotting or Wishing.
I support the idea of Serene Grace.This would work quite effectively and benefit both pokemon with the whole hax concept. This pokemon could be able to take on threats Togekiss could normally not, there for having a synergy of hax between the two, a very hard duo to stop.
Another ability I also support is Skill Link. This can benefit the pokemon in a way that it can eliminate pokemon Togekiss could not Paralyze or Flinch, like with Arm Thrust and also break those annoying substitutes that Togekiss cannot Paralyze either.
Another ability I also support is Skill Link. This can benefit the pokemon in a way that it can eliminate pokemon Togekiss could not Paralyze or Flinch, like with Arm Thrust and also break those annoying substitutes that Togekiss cannot Paralyze either.
I don't support Skill Link only on a technicality. Skill Link encourages multi-hit moves, however, with that, it encourages usage of the Focus Sash glitch on shoddy (where multi hit moves that OHKO a Pokemon OHKO regardless of Focus Sash, unlike in-game where Focus Sash would make the Pokemon survive every hit).
That really only comes into play in Little Cup tennis, where the offense to defense ratio is extremely skewed towards offense (e.g. tons on mons with 80+ Atk stats and few with 80+ defense). With the exception of Jynx and maybe Aerodactyl, Skill Link Rock Blast isn't going to OHKO anything through Focus Sash, especially not on CAP 11 who lacks STAB. If this had something like Rhyperior level offense and typing I'd change my tune, but the ability to break Sashes is so niche (and Aero would still set up SR) that I don't think its a solid foundation for opposition. The same is largely true for Skill Link Bone Rush, except you might actually be able to KO LeadTran with it (though I think that runs Shuca anyway so maybe not)
Skill Link Arm Thrust also probably takes out lead Tyranitar and maybe Leadcario (see also Bone Rush), but again these aren't the most popular leads and their functions aren't really impeded.
Perhaps... But how is Shockproof really all that different in this regard? It may not be doing as much as Volt Absorb/Motor Drive, but nonetheless, if voting for those is "regretting not picking Ground in the type polls" then I don't see how Shockproof isn't "regretting not picking Grass or Electric in the Type polls." In both cases though, I don't believe it's that simple though; instead, it's pretty much as Myrmidon said--we can't do everything we want through the typing alone, so the Ability makes up for some of those things we weren't able to do in Typing. In other words, it's about doing something that a type-combination alone would be impossible to solve by itself--the typing takes care of certain aspects, while the ability takes care of others.
That doesn't really answer (or it could be how I'm really not understanding what you're trying to say about the Ice-weakness thing) how Shockproof/Motor Drive makes CAP11 too much of a Gyarados partner, but Shockproof doesn't, though. In other words, why is going down from an immunity to a resistance make it something that Togekiss is still interested in, but Gyarados suddenly doesn't find it appealing at all, unless the typing really isn't enough by itself after all?
As for the second part, you're still misquoting the concept there:
"The good-but-not-great" Pokemon is the Pokemon that we're supposed to be helping; in other words, Togekiss. Whether CAP11 itself ("the perfect teammate") is supposed to be great or not is not specified in the concept at all, but since it's called "the perfect teammate", I'd lean more towards making it great at its job than deliberately trying to make it lacking.
No clue what you're talking about here; what does Jolteon not resisting Rock attacks have to do with how well CAP11 and Gyarados work as partners? And if you meant Gyarados, I'm still not sure what you're point is, as either way CAP11 will resist Rock, while Gyarados and Togekiss are weak to it; Volt Absorb has nothing to do with that.
I think what he's trying to say is that you will be able to switch into CAP 11 into an electric move straight from Gyarados without fear of a rock type move like Stone Edge.
Just a couple of thoughts on the subject.
Firstly, I fully agree with those who do not care about gyarados synergy.
But for those who do, I don't think that trace will be any better at avoiding it. Trace bothers jolteon and vaporeon, two prime gyarados counters. What does volt absorb bother? Only jolteon, I think. Gyarados will never set up on on E-Vire or Zapdos, and both will be killed by the appropriate Waterfall/Earthquake/Stone Edge. Only jolteon has a chance at outrunning a +1 DD gyarados. Trace also makes CAP11 better at dealing with pokemon rather irrelevant to togekiss, making it get along better by itself without the partner.
I'm still on board with Volt Absorb, and considering Motor Drive. But don't get your hopes up on CAP11 getting passed a nasty plot by togekiss and getting a motor boost at the same time. Many electric types, gengar, and starmie can outrun and will fry Togekiss before it baton passes, and non-scarf magnezone proabably won't risk staying in on a nasty plotted aura sphere anyway. Sorry, though, it's tough to choose between the two abilites.
And shockproof, like others have said, does little good unless full paralysis and speed reduction are completely nullified, because it only takes that little bit to ruin you against a fast enemy.
EDIT: Made up my mind. Volt Absorb over motor drive.
Firstly, I fully agree with those who do not care about gyarados synergy.
But for those who do, I don't think that trace will be any better at avoiding it. Trace bothers jolteon and vaporeon, two prime gyarados counters. What does volt absorb bother? Only jolteon, I think. Gyarados will never set up on on E-Vire or Zapdos, and both will be killed by the appropriate Waterfall/Earthquake/Stone Edge. Only jolteon has a chance at outrunning a +1 DD gyarados. Trace also makes CAP11 better at dealing with pokemon rather irrelevant to togekiss, making it get along better by itself without the partner.
I'm still on board with Volt Absorb, and considering Motor Drive. But don't get your hopes up on CAP11 getting passed a nasty plot by togekiss and getting a motor boost at the same time. Many electric types, gengar, and starmie can outrun and will fry Togekiss before it baton passes, and non-scarf magnezone proabably won't risk staying in on a nasty plotted aura sphere anyway. Sorry, though, it's tough to choose between the two abilites.
And shockproof, like others have said, does little good unless full paralysis and speed reduction are completely nullified, because it only takes that little bit to ruin you against a fast enemy.
EDIT: Made up my mind. Volt Absorb over motor drive.
OK, all this accusatory BS is getting out of hand.
If Volt Absorb and Motor Drive are cop-outs, then quite frankly so is Shockproof. Ground was put on the first typing slate over, say, Grass not just because of the immunity but because of the STAB. We could have had Grass or Electric as an Electric resist, but they don't resist Rock and Grass is rather inferior as an offensive type. Shockproof isn't much less of a cop-out than the existing abilities here.
The other aspect of this is the implication that we're trying to circumvent an earlier result by "fixing" it in the ability portion of the project. I don't really see the problem with this at all. People should keep in mind that CAP 11 is not going to be revised. After testing, whether CAP 11 succeeds or fails to do what it's supposed to do, that's how it will end. (Speaking of which, this complaint seems really odd when you consider that we ARE revising the other ten CAPs.) This is the only chance we have to address this particular issue. There isn't going to be a math professor to step in and prevent this Indiana Pi bill from passing. We have to concentrate on getting this project right, instead of throwing thinly veiled accusations at each other.
Of course, all this assumes that Volt Absorb or Motor Drive is definitely the best way to go. Honestly, I've been quite open to other reasonable abilities. However, just about every argument against Volt Absorb and Motor Drive seem to have nothing to do with the competitive aspect of the project and the concept, instead making incredibly short-sighted outcries that certain options are "broken", or that they help Gyarados more. And of course this latest argument basically calling us disgruntled Ground fanboys is among the worst of these.
But Motor Drive does make it Great Pokemon even without Togekiss! That's my point!
ShockProof doesn't take Electivires and Jolteons place in Gyarados' heart!
I meant that Jolteon and Electivire can get killed by Stone Edge while CAP11 just barely get scratched. Motor Drive CAP11 will not only take Gyarados as perfect partner, it will also eliminate the few uses of Electivire and Jolteon
ShockProof will get little damage by Electric attacks, but not gain from them. That makes Electivire and Jolteon better choices as Gyarados' teammates and Togekiss can keep CAP11 for herself at most.
Maybe I'm too active on this Project...
My support is with Motor Drive and Adaptability
Motor Drive because it could be used to create a Baton Pass set, which could then be passed back to Togekiss to make it even more of a flinch-happy swiffer super-sweeper
Adaptability is for extra power to take out Togekiss's counters, so it's less likely that Togekiss will be taken out as easily, and could then sweep through the remaining members of the enemy team
Motor Drive because it could be used to create a Baton Pass set, which could then be passed back to Togekiss to make it even more of a flinch-happy swiffer super-sweeper
Adaptability is for extra power to take out Togekiss's counters, so it's less likely that Togekiss will be taken out as easily, and could then sweep through the remaining members of the enemy team
I'm sorry, but even with Motor Drive, I still don't see how CAP 11 will sweep without a god-like movepool. CAP 11 has, IMO, decent, but not super-powerful attacking stats. You're not going to be OHKOing, or even 2HKOing a lot of things that aren't a) frail, or b) weak to your STAB moves.
Motor Drive is overpowered
I didn't think so before, but after doing some calcs, I've seen it in a different light. I'm going to base my opinion merely on calcs. Assuming that Rising_Dusk's spread wins, here are some calcs for basically every important OU pokemon. I've only used Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse, Close Combat, and HP Ice. All calcs are done using the Smogon Calculator.
CAP11 is assumed to have:
105 Base SpAtk
252 SpAtk EVs
Naive/Hasty Nature
Life Orb
Legend:
Red - Guaranteed OHKO
Orange - Guaranteed OHKO with SR
Purple - Guaranteed 2HKO
Blue - Guaranteed 2HKO with SR
Black - 3HKO and more
Important calcs are highlighted in bold.
With just those 4 moves and ignoring the possibility of all coverage moves, we are able to OHKO, 2HKO, or SR-2HKO a significant portion of the OU metagame with just a Life Orb, max SpAtk, and no stat boosts.
Now why are 2HKO's especially dangerous? That comes from the nature of how Motor Drive gets activated. If you manage to trigger it, that means a free switch in for you. Things that commonly trigger Motor Drive include Jolteon, Zapdos, Rotom-A, Togekiss, and other common T-Wavers like Celebi. Most of these are going to want to get the hell out right away. And Zapdos without Thunderbolt is nigh useless for causing damage. This means that we get to hit whatever switches in for free. If we happen to pick the right move (one that allows us to 2HKO them), then whatever check they hoped to use has to die without ever attacking, unless it has a priority move.
There are some serious concerns here:
Without any help, CAP11 can already cause some serious damage. Now on top of this, it's blazingly fast to begin with, making it vulnerable only to the fastest pokemon and scarfers. With a boost from Motor Drive, it will outspeed every commonly used pokemon in OU. Only freaks like Scarf Starmie and things will be faster.
Combine this fact with the scary thought that it might be a rather routine practice to pass +2 boosts to it. A +2/+1 CAP11 (takes timing, but might not be ridiculously rare to achieve) might singlehandedly win you the game. With LO Recoil and the possibility of taking a hit here or there, it might not sweep all 6 pokemon, but it might still net 3 or 4 kills.
I thought before that Motor Drive might not be so bad. But now, after looking at the above calcs, I really have to ask. Are we seriously considering giving this thing Motor Drive?
I vouch for either Shockproof or Volt Absorb instead.
I didn't think so before, but after doing some calcs, I've seen it in a different light. I'm going to base my opinion merely on calcs. Assuming that Rising_Dusk's spread wins, here are some calcs for basically every important OU pokemon. I've only used Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse, Close Combat, and HP Ice. All calcs are done using the Smogon Calculator.
CAP11 is assumed to have:
105 Base SpAtk
252 SpAtk EVs
Naive/Hasty Nature
Life Orb
Legend:
Red - Guaranteed OHKO
Orange - Guaranteed OHKO with SR
Purple - Guaranteed 2HKO
Blue - Guaranteed 2HKO with SR
Black - 3HKO and more
Important calcs are highlighted in bold.
Code:
All calcs are tested against standard Smogon sets.
[I]
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. All forms of Tyranitar: [COLOR=Red]OHKO[/COLOR][/B]
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. All forms of Lucario: [COLOR=Red]OHKO[/COLOR][/B]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Lead Empoleon: [COLOR=DarkOrange]94.8% - 112.1%[/COLOR]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Defensive Penguin Empoleon (most defensive set): [COLOR=DarkOrchid]72.6% - 86%[/COLOR]
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. Physically Based MixApe (this will be around the same for all types of Infernape): [COLOR=DarkOrchid]83.3% - 98.3%[/COLOR][/B]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Scarf Heatran: [COLOR=Red]107.7% - 126.9%[/COLOR]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. SubSeed Breloom: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]77.8% - 91.9%[/COLOR]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. RestTalk Heatran: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]68.6% - 81%[/COLOR]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Physically Defensive Forretress: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]70.1% - 83.1%[/COLOR]
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. Specially Defensive Forretress: 45.8% - 54.2%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Spiker Skarmory: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]65.9% - 78.1%[/COLOR][/B]
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. CB Scizor: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]57.7% - 68.2%[/COLOR][/B]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Scarf Metagross: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]58.8% - 69.5%[/COLOR]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. AgiliGross: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]55% - 65%[/COLOR]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Lead Metagross: [COLOR=Blue]49.9% - 59%[/COLOR]
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. Specially Defensive Skarmory: 48.5% - 57.5%[/B]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. MixPert Lead Swampert: 44.8% - 53%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. CursePert Swampert: 32.7% - 38.6%
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. AntiLead Machamp: 44% - 51.8%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. RestTalker Machamp: 49.2% - 58.1%[/B]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Physical Wall Hippowdon: 46% - 54.3%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Dual Screen Bronzong: 39.9% - 47%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. SubRoost Aerodactyl: [COLOR=Blue]55.2% - 65.4%[/COLOR]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Lead Aerodactyl: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]69.5% - 81.8%[/COLOR]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Standard Wish Vaporeon: 38.4% - 45.5%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. CroCune: 35.9% - 42.6%
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. CurseLax: 45.7% - 54.1%[/B]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. SubDD Kingdra: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]58.8% - 69.4%[/COLOR]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. RestTalk DD Kingdra: 48.6% - 57.6%
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. Specs Jolteon: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]63.1% - 74.5%[/COLOR][/B]
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. Scarf Jirachi: 48.4% - 57.2%[/B]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Wish Support Jirachi: 38.2% - 44.9%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Dual Screen Jirachi: 31.9% - 37.9%
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. Wish Blissey: 35.6% - 42.3%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. NP Sweeper Togekiss: 38.8% - 46%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Flinch Togekiss: 28.9% - 34%[/B]
[B]+0 Dark Pulse vs. All forms of Starmie: [COLOR=Red]OHKO[/COLOR]
+0 Dark Pulse vs. All forms of Gengar: [COLOR=red]OHKO[/COLOR]
+0 Dark Pulse vs. Scarf Rotom-A: [COLOR=Red]114.5% - 135.3%[/COLOR][/B]
[B]+0 Dark Pulse vs. Specially Defensive Zapdos: 30.5% - 36%
+0 Dark Pulse vs. SubRoost Zapdos: 43.4% - 51.5%
+0 Dark Pulse vs. Offensive Zapdos: [COLOR=Blue]49.8% - 59.2%[/COLOR][/B]
+0 Dark Pulse vs. TSpiker Tentacruel: 28% - 33%
+0 Dark Pulse vs. RestTalk Rotom-A (most defensive): [COLOR=DarkOrchid]73.7% - 87.5%[/COLOR]
[B]+0 Dark Pulse vs. Offensive DD Gyarados: 43.8% - 52%
+0 Dark Pulse vs. RestTalk Gyarados: 36.9% - 43.8%[/B]
+0 Dark Pulse vs. Tank Dusknoir: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]76.2% - 90.5%[/COLOR]
[B]+0 Dark Pulse vs. Defensive Celebi: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]71.8% - 85.1%[/COLOR]
+0 Dark Pulse vs. DD Dragonite: 37.6% - 44.6%
+0 Dark Pulse vs. RestTalk Spiritomb: 36.8% - 43.8%[/B]
[B]+0 Close Combat vs. Wish Blissey: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]74.2% - 87.7%[/COLOR][/B]
[B]+0 Hidden Power Ice vs. DD Dragonite: [COLOR=DarkOrange]88.1% - 104.7%[/COLOR][/B]
[/I]Now why are 2HKO's especially dangerous? That comes from the nature of how Motor Drive gets activated. If you manage to trigger it, that means a free switch in for you. Things that commonly trigger Motor Drive include Jolteon, Zapdos, Rotom-A, Togekiss, and other common T-Wavers like Celebi. Most of these are going to want to get the hell out right away. And Zapdos without Thunderbolt is nigh useless for causing damage. This means that we get to hit whatever switches in for free. If we happen to pick the right move (one that allows us to 2HKO them), then whatever check they hoped to use has to die without ever attacking, unless it has a priority move.
There are some serious concerns here:
- Most importantly, things which are supposed to check CAP11, like Infernape and Starmie, are absolutely massacred by CAP11. Even Dragonite gets OHKO'd after SR by HP Ice.
- Pokemon with strong priority moves, like ES Dragonite, ES Lucario, or Mach Punch Infernape, cannot afford to take a hit switching in. The priority moves do not do enough damage to OHKO, and they are in turn easily 2HKO'd.
- The pokemon that can hurt CAP11 badly, like Infernape, ScarfTar, Starmie, and Dragonite, NEED to outspeed CAP11 to stand a chance. With Rising_Dusk's spread, Infernape and Dragonite (unboosted) are always outsped. With the other spread, all of these are always outsped.
- Even bulky pokemon like Machamp, Swampert, Hippowdon, SpD Skarmory, and SpD Forretress are nearly 2HKO'd. Of these, Machamp is the only thing that will threaten CAP11.
- Many of the pokemon that take 3 or more hits to kill cannot do much back to CAP11.
- Togekiss seems to be the only thing that can consistently threaten CAP11 with a STAB SE attack without taking hefty damage in the process.
- Bulky waters like Vappy and Suicune can also outlast it.
Without any help, CAP11 can already cause some serious damage. Now on top of this, it's blazingly fast to begin with, making it vulnerable only to the fastest pokemon and scarfers. With a boost from Motor Drive, it will outspeed every commonly used pokemon in OU. Only freaks like Scarf Starmie and things will be faster.
Combine this fact with the scary thought that it might be a rather routine practice to pass +2 boosts to it. A +2/+1 CAP11 (takes timing, but might not be ridiculously rare to achieve) might singlehandedly win you the game. With LO Recoil and the possibility of taking a hit here or there, it might not sweep all 6 pokemon, but it might still net 3 or 4 kills.
I thought before that Motor Drive might not be so bad. But now, after looking at the above calcs, I really have to ask. Are we seriously considering giving this thing Motor Drive?
I vouch for either Shockproof or Volt Absorb instead.
That's a good thing. You don't want to make a Pokemon that's completely and utterly useless without its partner. That's simply not feasible.
CAP11 is supposed to partner best with Togekiss, not only. If it fits on my team decently alongside Gyarados and Suicune, then it's my choice to put them there at the opportunity cost of using it with its supposedly best and intended partner, Togekiss.
Keep in mind that we're creating an entire Pokemon here. There's no way at all to ensure this thing is incapable of doing anything other than supporting Togekiss. It's inevitably going to work well with something other than Togekiss and there will be people attempting to explore those combinations. As long as it's used best alongside Togekiss, it really doesn't matter what else it can do.
Ah; that makes more sense. But even in that case, that really goes without saying, as most of the Pokemon that tend to use Electric attacks don't have a Rock-attack--Zapdos, Rotom-A, Gengar, Jolteon, Electivire, Vaporeon, Magnezone, and Starmie all rarely, if ever, run Rock-typed moves. Volt Absorb, Shockproof or neither, and Fighting-type or none, there really isn't any worry about a Rock-type attack from these Pokemon anyway.
And while it works for Gyarados, it also works for Togekiss, which is the important thing--Togekiss and Gyarados share the same weaknesses bar one, so if we focus on making CAP11 not like to come in on the type of attacks that bother Gyarados, it also won't be able to come in on the ones that bother Kiss, and that's no good for this project. So, all we can do is focus more on the users of the moves, or in other words, the counters of Togekiss, instead of those of Gyarados.
If the project fails even then, and it still becomes a perfect-Gyarados partner instead of a Togekiss one, being seen loads more with the former than the latter, then it's pretty much just as (I believe) Objection's been saying: in that case, it really just says a lot about Togekiss's viability (or rather, the lack there of) in OU if we design something as the perfect partner for it, but it ends up being used with a different Pokemon instead, which has some of the same weakpoints (or in other words, that Togekiss simply isn't as viable as Gyarados, and because it shares the same weapoints as it, it was going to wind up being used more with Gyarados since the beginning, and the project was thus a failure ever since we picked a Pokemon with a common set of weaknesses like Togekiss, instead of something with a more unique set, like Armaldo).
In any case though, that hasn't happened yet, the project's not over, and we have no clue what will actually happen. It may end up working too well with Gyarados if we give it Volt Absorb/Motor Drive; it may not. We have no way of knowing as of this point. Either way though, we can't let fear of CAP11 working too well with Gyarados control this CAP, or else it will end up not working that well with Togekiss either, and that's no good. Thus, all we can do is make it the best Togekiss partner we can, and just hope for the best from there, and or the reasons I've already explained earlier, I feel that Volt Absorb and Motor Drive are the two best ways of accomplishing this.
Now, since it seems that both of them aren't likely to make it to the poll, I'll mention again that I personally support Volt Absorb more. I didn't really go into specific's though, but really, the speed boost of Motor Drive makes me really uneasy. CAP11's going to have at least 110 Speed, which means with a Motor Drive boost, it's outspeeding everything except Scarfed Pokemon and things like Gyarados and Dragonite after two DD. And with CAP11's nearly unresisted STAB combination, that really worries me. It's Special Attack stat not being higher than Base 105 and the low BP of moves like Dark Pulse should keep things from getting out of hand, but then again, it seems that it will end up with just enough bulk to take a neutral hit or possibly two depending on the move, so I'm really not sure about it.
Electivire is really in a similar boat, with the BP of its move on the Physical side keeping it down there, and it's much lower SpA stat not helping things on the other side, and it's not nearly broken, so it wouldn't seem that CAP11 would be. But CAP11 will wind up with at least 15 Base Speed more than it, and has two STABs instead of one, which by themselves are nearly unresisted, opening up room for stuff like moves to deal with Blissey. Nonetheless, Electivire is similar enough of a reference point to serve as an indication that CAP11 with Motor Drive shouldn't be broken at all, but the differences are enough to make me hesitant about it, and so I would really prefer Volt Absorb over Motor Drive.
EDIT: Looking at ShravanP's post, which was posted as I was originally typing this, those calcs really do seem to reinforce my fears about a CAP11 at +1 Speed due to Motor Drive, and is the reason I'm hesitant about it having the ability. However, I'd like to point out that those calcs assume Aura Sphere, which I don't believe that we are required to give CAP11, and is why I didn't bring it up in the above portion of my post myself. Nonetheless, thinking this over, it's a move that CAP11 pretty much needs to function as best as it can (and thus it's very likely to end up with) without either essentially having only one good STAB or being forced to rely on its inferior Physical side, as the only other Special Fighting attacks are Focus Blast and Vacuum Wave, which each have their problems. Therefore, if I'm forced to choose between Aura Sphere and Motor Drive, I'd rather have Aura Sphere, and as a result, would much prefer Volt Absorb to be an option on the poll over Motor Drive, so that we're not forced to choose between Aura Sphere/Motor Drive to stop CAP11 from being potentially broken.
Im finding it tough to pick an ability but im going to say motor drive is way to overpowered i dont even agree with volt absorb the cap is going to have plenty of speed to begin with there is no reason to make it faster than anything else and make it more compatible with gyarados or any water or flying type than with its intended partner in crime togekiss. I like the idea of shockproof (to help with electric attacks but no immunity), and heatproof to help with incoming electric/ice attacks aimed at togekiss.
I propose than any ability that absorbs/utilizes Electric attacks is more useful to Gyarados than Togekiss.
The ability should focus on something that Togekiss could benefit from, but not Gyarados, which is I support Intimidate. It could save Togekiss from crippling hits on the switch that would greatly increase its usefullness in supporting and hurting CAP11's counters that it has been designated to be able to handle. Also, most Pokemon looking to hurt Gyarados would not mind their Attack being lowered, as they already have to be able to counter Gyara through one Intimidate.
Some have said that CAP11 counters so few Gyarados counters, that it isn't as suited for Gyara as it is for Togekiss. CAP11 successfully counters Rotom-A, Zapdos, Celebi, Shaymin, and Porygon 2. The only things left on the field to threaten a Gyarados sweep are bulky waters, which Togekiss doesn't like either.
The ability should focus on something that Togekiss could benefit from, but not Gyarados, which is I support Intimidate. It could save Togekiss from crippling hits on the switch that would greatly increase its usefullness in supporting and hurting CAP11's counters that it has been designated to be able to handle. Also, most Pokemon looking to hurt Gyarados would not mind their Attack being lowered, as they already have to be able to counter Gyara through one Intimidate.
Some have said that CAP11 counters so few Gyarados counters, that it isn't as suited for Gyara as it is for Togekiss. CAP11 successfully counters Rotom-A, Zapdos, Celebi, Shaymin, and Porygon 2. The only things left on the field to threaten a Gyarados sweep are bulky waters, which Togekiss doesn't like either.
Why Intimidate though? Most of the Pokemon that Togekiss has problems with are Special--Zapdos, Jolteon, Rotom-A, Starmie, and Gengar, to name a few. There are also Pokemon that Togekiss has problems with that are Physical, yes, but the ones that give it the most trouble tend to use Special Attacks more.
Now, if someone were to propose and get a "Special Intimidate" checked out with Fuzznip and he accepted it, then I might be able to understand people getting behind something like that. But just normal Intimidate doesn't seem useful enough in stopping Togekiss's primary counters to me.
You have a point there, but CAP11 does fairly well countering Togekiss' special threats already. Special Intimidate would be a good choice.
Not to sound, I don't know, condescending, but if CAP11 is a better partner for Gyara than for Kiss, it says less about Kiss' viability than it does about our own ability to assess what Togekiss needs in a perfect mate.
And I don't believe it was a failure from the start. There are/were plenty of opportunities to differentiate a Togekiss partner from a Gyarados partner.
I would fully support this ability. The lessened "impact" of being under paralysis in addition to Togekiss's ability to support with Heal Bell would make CAP 11 a great partner.
I support Scrappy.
All the hype about Electric-negating abilities is getting boring and doesn't really help. Besides, either Shockproof or Volt Absorb (Motor Drive is just ridiculous) really won't help with Gengar, who typically carries Focus Blast.
These are Gar's top four moves and top three items.. Volt Absorb solves one problem, but leaves it open to being hit with LO SE Focus Blast. To simulate the effect of Timid LO Focus Blast from Gengar, I used Psypoke's damage calculator and put the enemy Pokemon as a Glalie (same Sp.Def as Rising_Dusk's spread) with no Sp. Def investment. It would do 408-482 damage, easily a OHKO on CAP11. This is why I suggest Scrappy to be able to hit Gengar or the rare Spiritomb with a move such as Return or CC, respectively.
All the hype about Electric-negating abilities is getting boring and doesn't really help. Besides, either Shockproof or Volt Absorb (Motor Drive is just ridiculous) really won't help with Gengar, who typically carries Focus Blast.
Code:
| Gengar | Move | Shadow Ball | 95.9 |
| Gengar | Move | Focus Blast | 74.1 |
| Gengar | Move | Thunderbolt | 49.0 |
| Gengar | Move | Substitute | 36.6 |
| Gengar | Item | Life Orb | 45.1 |
| Gengar | Item | Leftovers | 16.1 |
| Gengar | Item | Choice Scarf | 15.0 |
+1 Speed Electivire is not a scary pokemon. Its offensive stats are rather similar. 123 Attack vs 85 Attack (offset by crappy STAB). 105 Special Attack vs 95 Special Attack.
Who cares if CAP 11 is a better partner to Gyarados? Who cares if people use Togekiss with CAP 11 100% of the time or not?
Plus, as Zystral kindly pointed out,
Those calc are rather scary. But.
After CAP 11 kills something, in switches a pokemon capable of taking a hit and OHKOing (and there are several). CAP 11 is OHKOing Tyranitar, Lucario, Starmie, and Gengar (and two other things or something).
Those scary calcs show 2HKOs or 3HKOes or less for, like, far more than those OHKOes (which are frail pokemon or pokemon with weaknesses, anyway). CAP 11 cannot sweep without a NP Pass from Kiss.
EDIT:
Scene: Gengar switches in on Togekiss and uses Thunderbolt.
CAP 11 switches in and absorbs it.
CAP 11 outspeeds and OHKOs with Dark Pulse.
Besides, Gengar resists Fighting.
Scrappy is not a very good idea. No offense.
EDIT 2 @ Below: Shravan, when you switch back in, you will have no Motor Drive Boost. You'll be a regular old CAP 11 again. :-{
Correct, you can always get revenge killed. But the thing is, after you kill something, you have no incentive to stay in and fight the revenge killer. CAP11 quad-resists pursuit and is resistant to SR, so you can always just leave and come back later. And dugtrio is "lol", especially when you have a Motor Drive boost. Basically, there's nothing that can force you to stay in and take a hit, so revenge killing isn't going to be that useful against CAP11.
Holy shit, bro. You need to relax and maybe take a break from your real-fake metagames.
Since the main suspects here are the electric-stoppers, I'm only going to address those in this post. We will be having a thread about the second ability, I'm sure, so we should deal with the oddballs there. This thread is about electric-resisters.
I support Trace first off. After that I support Shockproof. Finally I support Volt Absorb over Motor Drive.
Remember, we are trying to make two "good not great" pokemon that work together to be a fantastic duo; I fear giving Volt Absorb or Motor Drive would make this a grade-A pokemon who would stand out as a partner to Gyarados(before haters hate, I understand that it is pretty much inevitable at this point). That, or as a straight-up standalone sweeper(105 spA, 85 atk+Bulk Up) too well.
(As another note, I do believe CAP11 should handle well on his own, but not be as prevalent as other sweepers like Lucario, more like how Togekiss is now)
Trace solves the electric problem easily without being too over the top. the reason for this is because it covers the biggest threat to the duo(Jolteon), and myriad of other checks well.
-Jolteon. When he comes in, Volt Absorb appears and dodges the TBolt. Proceed to kill.
-Blissey(considering this a specially-offensive duo and Blissey carries status often). Come in, pick up Natural Cure, Blissey can't do much in return and is scared of STAB Close Combat/Superpower(yes, even off of base 85).
-Magnezone is forced to stay in by it's own ability then beaten down by STAB fighting.
-Electivire is obvious.
-Starmie's is situational, considering the only time you will see Status on starmie is on the offchance of a freeze from Ice Beam or Paralyze from TBolt, but still important to consider.
Trace does leave a weakness to Zapdos and Rotom but guess what? YOU OUTSPEED THEM. And it's not like CAP11 doesn't have some special bulk. It can take an electric attack then beat them down.
Shockproof is my second choice because it solves the electric problem more blatantly, but doesn't do it overbearingly so like Volt Absorb/Motordrive.
Volt Absorb is over Motor Drive in my book because it is the one with the less game-changing effect. First, since CAP11 is resistant to SR, residual damage is less important than it usually is, so coming in most of the time wont be painful and none of this will matter. With motor drive, you have some (BAN ME PLEASE) running around outspeeding anything not named Ninjask or Speed Boost Yanmega, with two very potent STABs and decent stats to abuse them.
- Status