CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 6a - Ability Discussion

[DarkSlay]

I'd like to clear up some misconceptions that have been brought up throughout this thread. There's a lot of fiction in this thread, and a lot of facts that haven't been brought up yet. Let's clear the air on a few topics here:

• Specs Jolteon cannot 2HKO CAP11 if it resists Electric attacks, as long as it's not running a -SpD nature.

I have no idea why people are using Naive over Hasty on their calculations. Shame on you! :P The actual calculation is 38.6% - 45.8% (assuming R_D's spread, who has less overall bulk). Even after SR, this isn't a 2HKO. With SR + Sandstorm, it's less than a 40% chance of a 2HKO. Someone also brought up MSDos, which to that, I reply: go look at Zapdos' analysis and find MSDos. No one uses it anymore.

• A +1 Speed CAP11 is extremely powerful. It's able to OHKO/2HKO the majority of the metagame.

Here's the part where I think a lot of people are forgetting. While CAP11 doesn't have the highest Special Attack stat, it does have two amazing STAB attacks that go unresisted bar Heracross and Toxicroak. ShravanP saved me a bunch of time with those calculations, and in actuality, he was being nice: we didn't even talk about Focus Blast, which can 2HKO Blissey with SR + Sandstorm, as well as OHKO stuff like Skarmory and Scizor just with its two STAB attacks. After one Speed boost, the only thing that will be out-speeding you outside of priority is Scarf Starmie. That's it, or at least that's it who are faster than you and can carry a Scarf and can actually hurt you.

Compliment this with the fact that there are a bunch of Pokemon that are weak to Electric or crippled by TWave (Blissey may be the most common user, but we are also forgetting things like Gyarados, Rotom, Celebi, Jirachi, and the like can all utilize TWave). Tell me again, how is this NOT overpowered? I like the viability of Baton Pass as much as the next guy, but I'd rather have CAP11 suffer from not being a good Baton Passer than having it completely sweep the metagame after one switch-in.

• Volt Absorb is in the same boat. Less offensively threatening, more defensively aggravating.

While nowhere near as overpowering as Motor Drive is offensively, the ability to switch into any Electric attack and restore full Spikes damage, or even just previous damage, will go a long way in ensuring that a 85 / 105 / 110 offensive threat will last and last and last. While Jolteon isn't bulky (the only thing you can compare it to, unfortunately), 90 / 80 / 80 defenses are arguably better than 65 / 65 / 95 defenses too. It's basically a Machamp-esque Pokemon getting 25% health regeneration every time it switches into an Electric move, and then hitting with two powerful STAB moves constantly. To me, this is somewhat broken.

• Trace = Too Defensive.

If we want an example of what Trace should be chosen for, look at Krilowatt (disregard Magic Guard, of course). Why was Trace chosen as the primary ability? It was for switching in defensively. It was chosen to copy Intimidate, Volt Absorb, Motor Drive, Natural Cure, Water Absorb, Flash Fire, Levitate, and other valuable defensive natures so that it could counter Pokemon. Why should CAP11 get such a defensive move when it's supposed to be used as an offensive-minded Pokemon? There are few abilities that CAP11 can switch into and not be extremely defensive (or in the case of Motor Drive, offensive) with, to a point of being unstoppable. And thanks to its Speed and Special Attack, it can actually take advantage of the Trace'd ability for a good amount of time. Switch in on Vaporeon, steal Water Absorb. Now, Starmie can't really touch you. Switch in on Blissey, get Natural Cure. You can KO it, get Toxic'd or Burned, and not even worry about consequences. It just sounds way too advantageous for CAP11 to have a defensive ability like Trace, as it also sounds out of place.

Now that that's out of the way, I'm putting my support behind Shockproof. While I was originally against custom abilities, the fact that it's based off of another existing ability is neat. I recommend, however, that it either just adds the resistance, or that it adds the resistance plus Paralysis immunity (pretty much Limber+). Anything in between is pretty complicated to program, will be useless, or will cause some confusion

 

[Rising_Dusk]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2843130&postcount=164

This is a great post, and one that I am surprised people have ignored since it was posted. It actually has pretty serious ramifications, too, and has made an argument unlike any posted by anyone else thus far. He's actually, believe it or not, convinced me that maybe giving CAP11 Motor Drive is a bad idea. (I know, right?)

I had a very long and insightful discussion with a lot of people on IRC after reading that post, and I think that Volt Absorb is actually the way to go. Maybe I got overwhelmed in my ideas that I lost sight of what being immune to Choice Scarf revenge killers really does for CAP11. With two switch-ins into an Electric-type attack over the course of a match, Motor Drive CAP11 can single-handedly eliminate almost an entire team, bar little. So yeah, great post Shraven, thanks for that. Let's go, Volt Absorb.

People need to realize that if we don't get an Electric-type immunity (or resistance, but the custom ability is pretty ridiculous as I pointed out earlier), we are basically saying "Later, Togekiss" and making another powerful sweeper instead. There's basically nothing else to say here for a primary ability. We have to support Togekiss, and in order to do that, we really do need to get the Electric-stopping ability in here.

 

[??????]

After reading through the entire thread, my support goes to Trace.

Complete immunity to all T-Bolts is broken, and even though its been said too often, supports other flyers more than Kiss. With Trace's "immunity", you'll stop Jolteon, the only one that uses STAB T-Bolt and outspeeds CAP11. The other users are slower, and due to the nature of our typing (forgive the poll jumping), with probably receive moves to deal with Zapdos and Dark STAB to deal with Rotom-A.

 

[HeavyOctillery]

I agree 100% that Limber & Immunity would be the two perfect abilities to go with; they both can be used to great effect both alongside Kiss and on its own, without making it TOO good on its own or alongside something else.

Skill Link is definitely something else to consider; anything that relies on a status move HATES Subs. However, as I just said, that might end up helping other Pokes that rely on status. Not sure.

I'm undecided on Synchronize.

 

[Maga]

OK, as somebody who's only really been observing, this may not be my place to chime in, but I figure I should put my 2 cents in.

First off, it seems to me that the Gyarados argument is entirely beside the point. Honestly, even if CAP11 becomes a great partner to Gyarados, if it still can be a perfect mate to Togekiss, I'd call that a successful execution of concept.

That much being said, all this looking at solely the Electric weakness doesn't rub me right. Not only does the duo have a couple problems not named Thunderbolt, but Volt Absorb and Motor Drive seem like a slightly OP approach to it all (the latter moreso than the former), and Shockproof strikes me as a cop-out.

Given Electric is still a problem, and the duo is status bait, I'd have to give a nod to Trace as a good choice. It gives CAP11 the freedom to switch into a lot of counters, dealing with most common Electrics and a few status-happy threats, and certain bulky Waters who often carry Ice Beam (read as: Vaporeon). I'll also give my support to Synchronize, mentioned a few times as a good answer to incoming status, and reusable due to Togekiss' Heal Bell should one so desire. Sure, it's not perfect, and the duo is still open to Zapdos and Rotom-A, but no duo should go completely uncountered. As mentioned earlier in the thread, many offensive cores use a third member, too, and there's no shame in that. (Though it is worth noting that the aforementioned Zapdos and Rotom-A are great candidates for this, being the only 2 Pokemon in OU to resist CAP11's weaknesses and being able to help spread the paralysis that Togekiss loves).

Beyond that, I like the idea of Skill Link. It's an ability that should get more use, and sub-breaking powers are pretty nice. Just make sure Rock Blast is included for a solid physical option that can break Ghost-type Subs.

So, in short, I'd be in favor of either Trace or Synchronize as a primary ability, but I'd definitely move for Skill Link as a secondary. Call me crazy, but it just might work.

 

[Scoopapa]

I support Shockproof.

Volt Absorb is a little bit too good on this thing, and it really goes beyond what we are trying to do. It seems what we are trying to do is give this the ability to take attacks from Zapdos, Jolteon, and Rotom-A. Volt Absorb does this, but has the side effect of turning this into an extremely durable tank, with that auto-healing on something with defenses close to Machamp's and typing both comparable and superior. We simply don't need to add the auto-healing of Volt Absorb into the mix.

Shockproof will make CAP11 a counter to defensive Zapdos and all Rotom and will still discourage Jolteon from trying to revenge it (keep in mind that specsjolt doesn't 2HKO, and that Aura Sphere + Vacuum Wave + SR = dead Jolteon). However, it adds only a good tankiness tool (as opposed to an amazing one) to CAP11, keeping it more in line with general consensus about how CAP11 should fulfill the concept. Also, the fact that it's made up is mitigated by the fact that it's a just a retype cloning, and more importantly that the ability it is a clone of is also used on a pokemon without a matching type. It seems much more within the bounds of plausibility than stuff like Mountaineer and Rebound.

Those issues aside, I do agree with the focus on Electric. It's the most important issue for this CAP to deal with at the moment, as Electric attacks are the biggest threat to the duo. Togekiss has other problems that an ability can deal with, such as status, but I think that such abilities are best saved for the secondary ability thread.

 

[X-Act]

Okay, I regret saying what I said about fixing stuff with abilities and whatnot. Sorry about that.

And I do agree with everyone saying that Electric needs to be circumvented somewhat - otherwise I wouldn't have suggested Shockproof to Fuzznip.

After what ShravenP has written, I am more and more convinced that Drill Peck Zapdos is going to be cool. People, you don't just need to see what the CURRENT metagame is. You need also to try to predict how the metagame would change because of CAP11. Zapdos with Thunderbolt and Drill Peck is still a huge thorn to the Togekiss/CAP11 combo. Say Togekiss is out and the opponent switches to Zapdos. Do you switch/Baton Pass to CAP11? And if you're the Zapdos player, what will you use, Thunderbolt or Drill Peck? This becomes quite a fascinating mind war.

 

[Anachronism]

Looking at ShravanP's calcs, if we go with Jibaku's spread then it will miss a lot of those KOs simply because of the 5 base point drop...I still think Motor Drive is fine.

 

[Naxte]

Looking at ShravanP's calcs, if we go with Jibaku's spread then it will miss a lot of those KOs simply because of the 5 base point drop...I still think Motor Drive is fine.

That may be true, but it doesn't seem that Jibaku's spread is going to win, so that's not too relevant--the calcs in ShravanP's post seem to be what CAP11's offensive ability will be, and that seems scary to me (seriously, a +1Base 110 speed Pokemon, with 105 SpA and a nearly unresisted STAB combination, giving it free slots for two other moves which it can use to pick off most everything else... that really has me skeptical about how it couldn't end up broken, especially after seeing those calcs, really).

 

[Jibaku]

Okay this nonsense about “Trace being too defensive” has got to stop. Yes, it’s only mentioned once in this thread, but it’s mentioned quite a bit in the chat. Really though, Krilowatt comparison? Do you realize how different Krilowatt is to CAP11? Krilowatt can actually take advantage of the things he Traces, but CAP11 doesn’t quite do the same. Add in the fact that Krilowatt is about 1.3x more bulky than CAP11 (assuming Duck’s spread wins, and assuming that both Pokemon are uninvested), and probably a moderately small offensive movepool (since Fighting + Dark is phenomenal coverage, anyways). Finally, with CAP11 having offensively geared base stats, there is a high chance that its defenses / HP won’t be invested in.

Let’s see the abilities worth taking. Calcs are assumed with Duck's spread:

Intimidate – Gyarados: Okay, Mence is gone, and this is the only Intimidator left. That said, CAP11 can’t break through Gyarados and Dragon Dance can nullify the Intimidate, and now you’d have wasted a turn switching this in instead of your Gyarados counter, AND given Gyarados a +1 Speed. Finally, Life Orb Waterfall from Jolly Gyarados does 44%-52% at -1 to uninvested CAP11

Levitate – Gengar, Rotom-A, Flygon, Bronzong: The first two don’t use Ground attacks so I guess Levitate can save you from being Earthquaked by another Pokemon. As far as Earthquake users go, things like Metagross and Gyarados have stronger options, Swampert can Roar or Hydro Pump, Scarf Tyranitar may have Superpower instead of Earthquake, Hippowdon can Roar, and Flygon can Outrage (albeit risky), thus leaving Gliscor as the only Pokemon that gets gimped if CAP11 snags Levitate and kills something. Speaking of Flygon, it loves to use U-turn, so even Levitate won’t always help here. Bronzong doesn’t mind CAP11’s attacks and can wipe it out with Gyro Ball.

Volt Absorb / Motor Drive – Jolteon, Electivire: This helps fulfill CAP11’s concept by punishing Jolteon and Electivire, respectively. Switching into Vire is risky since it has Cross Chop which can OHKO CAP11, and there are a few slow Pokemon that can stop a +1 CAP11 so it’s not the end of the world. It's a lot less scary than getting +1 from every source of Thunderbolt in the game.

Natural Cure – Blissey, Celebi, Starmie, Roserade: Blissey loves to status Togekiss, and I’m sure CAP11 doesn’t like status either. Actually, CAP11 gets completely neutered by paralysis. If status is as bad as people make it out to be, what’s wrong with finding other ways to heal it than just vs. Blissey? Trying to snag Natural cure vs Starmie is a very big risk, and Celebi can leave a dent as well. Natural Cure doesn’t even get rid of Toxic Spikes so it’s not so useful vs Roserade (and if you do Spin the Toxic Spikes away later on chances are Roserade will be dead by then, so good luck getting that Natural Cure!)

Water Absorb – Vaporeon: The only thing Water Absorb is useful for is for CAP11 to switch into Surf and get the heck out of there, or revenge kill a weakened Vaporeon so that Starmie can’t revenge it (How often do you see Starmie and Vaporeon on the same team????). However, the former is risky because Vaporeon could throw around Wishes just about any time and denying your chance to heal. Ice Beam does ~31% to CAP11 and Toxic beats it unless it can find a Natural Cure Pokemon later. Yes, HP Electric does less, but anyways, CAP11 isn’t breaking past 46% with a Life Orb boost alone, and between Orb and perhaps Sand damage, it’s only prolonging its death trying to combat a Vaporeon one on one with a Traced Water Absorb.

Flash Fire – Heatran: Arguably the biggest enemy to Trace since it neuters Heatran (and CAP11 has STAB Fighting moves too). That said, despite this, Heatran isn’t the only thing in the game with a powerful Fire move, and CAP11 likely won’t be the perfect partner for things that need protection from Fire Blasts and whatnot. Furthermore, if you’re relying on this to stop Heatran, Substitute can deny it. Life Orb Earth Power easily does >50% to uninvested CAP11.

Magnet Pull – Trapping a trapper is only a mild bonus.

In other words, Trace helps cover up Togekiss' issue without going too overboard like Motor Drive, I guess. Further along with that, its use outside of helping what Togekiss is weak to is fairly limited.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Trace is a terrible ability choice on CAP11

Let me explain why.

Trace doesn't even check half of the Pokemon we need CAP11 to check
​

Sure, we can come in on Electivire and Jolteon, good job. What about Zapdos? What about Rotom-A? These Pokemon, the two most-common Pokemon switching into and hard-countering Togekiss, aren't even checked at all by Trace. You switch in and, assuming my stat spread, take a STAB Thunderbolt to the face for the following bits of non-negligible damage:

0/0 Timid CAP11 
  vs. 0 Bold Leftovers Zapdos Thunderbolt  : 46.7% - 55.1%
  vs. 0 Bold Leftovers Rotom-H Thunderbolt  : 40.2% - 47.7%
  vs. 252 Timid Choice Scarf Rotom-H Thunderbolt  : 49.8% - 59.2%

Great, you actually even run the possibility of being 2HKOed by Zapdos and offensive Rotom-A without Stealth Rock damage! Surely you all must realize how important these switch-ins are. With Trace, we don't even get more than half of the switch-ins we need. It is not good enough when we need it to be, and that leads to my next point.

Trace allows CAP11 to check Pokemon that it has no business checking, completely diverting it away from supporting Togekiss
​

Vaporeon? Heatran? Flygon? Gyarados? Magnezone? Ninjask? Come on guys, CAP11 has absolutely no business checking these Pokemon so successfully. We already tried Trace, everyone; we ran it with Krilowatt. We know what it can do, and we know how successful it is at allowing a Pokemon to check numerous others without much effort. CAP11 does not need to check all of the aforementioned Pokemon, it needs to check Zapdos, Rotom-A, Jolteon, and Electivire. Trace only helps with 2 of the 4 Pokemon we need help with, and helps with circa 6 Pokemon we don't need help with. This completely diverts CAP11 away from supporting Togekiss. Without the ability to deal with the strong Electric-type attacks from Togekiss's responses reliably, we may as well be making "just another CAP sweeper."

 

[Gasoline]

Rising_Dusk: would you mind running those calcs if we used our custom Shockproof ability?

 

[Jibaku]

Oh Duck since when is Rotom a hard counter to Togekiss (as a matter of fact, Togekiss can beat Rotom-A one on one)? And stop exaggerating the list - Trace only helps vs Heatran and Zone, and Flygon to an extend. Get the numbers right: Trace helps against AT LEAST three things Togekiss can't handle, and I guess three stuff it probably shouldn't care about, (though getting rid of Magnezone does help Togekiss). The only thing concerning about this is Zapdos, and this allows the combo to be kept in check

STOP COMPARING KRILOWATT TO CAP11 for crying out loud. I have mentioned this a million times yet you've paid no attention. There is such a big difference between the two that using that comparing Trace's viability on the two is futile. Period

Trace's utility helps it cover Togekiss' issue more than it does at covering other unnecessary things

 

[Mektar]

I'm starting to think that Sychronize is the best choice. It's not broken, since status isn't prevented. It simply backfires on the pokemon that inflicted the status. A Bissey would hate it if her Toxic backfired, for example.

 

[Lucario_Guy]

*Trace Rant*

0/0 Timid CAP11 [w/o [B]Shockproof[/B]]
  vs. 0 Bold Leftovers Zapdos Thunderbolt  : 46.7% - 55.1%
  vs. 0 Bold Leftovers Rotom-H Thunderbolt  : 40.2% - 47.7%
  vs. 252 Timid Choice Scarf Rotom-H Thunderbolt  : 49.8% - 59.2%

*Moar Trace Rant*

Shockproof would halve the damage taken from Electric attacks shown above, resulting in the following:

0/0 Timid CAP11 w/[B]Shockproof[/B]
  vs. 0 Bold Leftovers Zapdos Thunderbolt  : 23.4% - 27.6%
  vs. 0 Bold Leftovers Rotom-H Thunderbolt  : 20.1% - 23.9%
  vs. 252 Timid Choice Scarf Rotom-H Thunderbolt  : 24.9% - 29.6%

The maximum damage shown here is 29.6%, which guarantees that CAP11 will never be 3HKO'd, even after Stealth Rock damage, by Scarf Rotom-A's Thunderbolt. That, in addition to the fact that Gyarados prefers partners that have an Electric immunity to those with only a resistance, warrents the implementation of X-Act's custom ability, Shockproof, as one of CAP11's abilities.

As another user suggested earlier, adding paralysis immunity instead of paralysis nerfing to Shockproof would make the ability more viable.

 

[Fuzznip]

I've thought about this for a bit, and I've come to a conclusion regarding Trace. I am not going to allow it. It's a very broad ability in that it helps with too many Pokemon, many of whom Togekiss doesn't even care about. I think Trace is more of a helpful ability to CAP 11 than Togekiss, as CAP 11 gets so many free switch-ins and stat boosts against Pokemon that don't threaten Togekiss. For example, you get free healing from Vaporeon's Surf and Speed boosts every turn from Ninjask, who don't threaten Togekiss in the slightest. Other examples include Flygon's Levitate, Gyarados's Intimidate, Heatran's Flash Fire, and Levitate from Gengar, among a load of others. Furthermore, Trace does nothing to Zapdos which is really disappointing, because that's probably the most important Pokemon we need to address somehow. Trace may just steer us away from our goal of synergizing CAP 11 with Togekiss. However, I'm not saying that Trace doesn't help with some of Togekiss's problems, because it does. You can switch into Jolteon or Electivire's STAB Electric-type attacks and receive 25% HP recovery or a Speed boost (which has been thought to be broken), respectively. Also, Magnezone can be trapped, Blissey's Natural Cure can be abused, and Dark Pulse will have a 40% flinch rate if you can come in on Jirachi, all of whom can threaten Togekiss in some way. But again, the fact that Trace helps with a large number of Pokemon who Togekiss doesn't even care about is taking us on an entirely different route with CAP 11. I don't want to go down that route for the success of this project.

I'm going to close this thread tomorrow morning and open the ability poll right after that, so if you need to mention/support/argue something, do it today or forever hold your peace!

 

[Gasoline]

Shockproof would halve the damage taken from Electric attacks shown above, resulting in the following:

0/0 Timid CAP11 w/[B]Shockproof[/B]
  vs. 0 Bold Leftovers Zapdos Thunderbolt  : 23.4% - 27.6%
  vs. 0 Bold Leftovers Rotom-H Thunderbolt  : 20.1% - 23.9%
  vs. 252 Timid Choice Scarf Rotom-H Thunderbolt  : 24.9% - 29.6%

The maximum damage shown here is 29.6%, which guarantees that CAP11 will never be 3HKO'd, even after Stealth Rock damage. That, in addition to the fact that Gyarados prefers partners that have an Electric immunity to those with only a resistance, warrents the implementation of X-Act's custom ability, Shockproof, as one of CAP11's abilities.

As another user suggested earlier, adding paralysis immunity as opposed to paralysis nerfing to Shockproof would make the ability more viable.

That's why i find Shockproof a great ability for our CAP, i agree that we give it another effect like Limber where it cant be paralyzed...
I propose this be Shockproof's effect: This pokemon cannot be paralyzed and takes 50% from Electric type Attacks.
I say Shockproof be our main ability for this CAP and something like Intimidate be our secondary :\

 

[DarkSlay]

Okay this nonsense about “Trace being too defensive” has got to stop. Yes, it’s only mentioned once in this thread, but it’s mentioned quite a bit in the chat. Really though, Krilowatt comparison? Do you realize how different Krilowatt is to CAP11? Krilowatt can actually take advantage of the things he Traces, but CAP11 doesn’t quite do the same. Add in the fact that Krilowatt is about 1.3x more bulky than CAP11 (assuming Duck’s spread wins, and assuming that both Pokemon are uninvested), and probably a moderately small offensive movepool (since Fighting + Dark is phenomenal coverage, anyways). Finally, with CAP11 having offensively geared base stats, there is a high chance that its defenses / HP won’t be invested in.

STOP COMPARING KRILOWATT TO CAP11 for crying out loud. I have mentioned this a million times yet you've paid no attention. There is such a big difference between the two that using that comparing Trace's viability on the two is futile. Period

In response to the bold print, you have either not read my entire post, or have misunderstood the point in me bringing up Krilowatt. You are correct, CAP11 is nothing like the final product that is Krilowatt. However, it is perfectly legitimate to compare the reasoning as to why Krilowatt received Trace to why CAP11 should get it.

Krilowatt received Trace to simply counter offensive threats so that it was given multiple attempts to switch in and out to counter threats safely. It's not like the ability has changed since then. If CAP11 were to get Trace (or heck, if any Pokemon were to get Trace), it would be able to switch into a variety of threats with little to no repercussion, and most likely forcing them out. The ability allows Krilowatt, Porygon2, and Gardevoir to accomplish this, not the other way around. Giving it to an offensive Pokemon like CAP11 doesn't change the nature of the ability, either. It will still allow CAP11 to come in on resistances, immunities, and whatnot. It will still allow the same kind of defensive mechanisms that Trace calls for, even on such a "frail" Pokemon.

While I agree that Rotom-A is a check, not a counter, to Togekiss, Rotom-A is also more threatening than Heatran, Vaporeon, Jolteon and Electivire (any of the suggested abilities will help regardless, however), Magnezone (unless it's Scarved, which doesn't 2HKO with an Electric resist), or the like. Looking at your list, in my opinion, CAP11 places a clear disadvantage on Vaporeon, Heatran, Flygon, Blissey, Celebi (with the exception of the Tinkerbell set), and Magnezone. Every single one of these Pokemon can already be dealt with by CAP11 or Togekiss in some form OR CAP11 shouldn't have the option of beating said Pokemon (Flygon, etc.).

As far as retaining abilities go, you give Levitate not enough credit. Most of the Pokemon you listed there have little to no way to harm CAP11 outside of EQ (Roaring basically equals FREE HIT!) while other attack options are laughable (Superpower can be found on ~17.5% of all Tyranitar, and I've never seen a Swampert use Hydro Pump (It's not even a part of the statistics)). Let's not also forget that as the opponent, you NEED ScarfTar to beat a Levitating CAP11, or you NEED ScarfGon to hit CAP11 first. You're eliminating entire moveset choices of Pokemon CAP11 should not be countering, IMO. You also don't give enough credit to Natural Cure. If CAP11 were to switch into Blissey after it Softboils or Protects (or even attacks), it will be able to beat it one on one with Close Combat or the like. If so, after Blissey is gone, status will be unable to cripple CAP11 for one free turn. Go ahead, send out Jirachi and TWave/Body Slam CAP11 while you get hit for ~40-50% damage. It'll just switch out and suffer no consequences, therefore countering not one, but TWO attempts of two Pokemon, one that it should not fully counter immediately for no repercussion.

This is where Trace gets iffy for me. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice ability. I fully supported it for CAP10. However, I don't see the sense of putting it on CAP11 when it can accomplish such a defensive, counter-like goal with it. If you can convince me that CAP11 will be unable to accomplish these goals while having an offensive role on the team, I would understand its inclusion then. :)

 

[FlareBlitz]

I am really not seeing the appeal of Shockproof over Volt Absorb.

It loses one of the most important advantages of Volt Absorb (Thunderwave immunity), and although it has the whole "reduces speed disadvantage" thing a stage 1 speed drop combined with all your moves essentially having 75% accuracy is still a very detrimental thing.

And guess what? Despite having an Electric resistance we still lose to Jolteon and Zapdos if they carry a Life Orb. Jolteon's LO Thunderbolt -> HP Fighting is guaranteed a kill on CAP11. Zapdos' LO Thunderbolt -> Heat Wave is nearly guaranteed a kill, and it has the bulky to survive any of our attacks barring a random Stone Edge from Physical CAP11 (which...really should not exist). Even Specs Jolteon beats us unless we run at least 80 EVs in attack and use Close Combat (it has a good chance of surviving any LO-boosted special attack we're likely to get, barring Focus Blast which might not hit, and it also survives uninvested Close Combat around half the time).

I'm curious as to why people are choosing Shockproof in the first place. Is it because Volt Asorb s "too good"? That's really odd, because the only thing it helps with that Shockproof doesn't is Jolteon, Zapdos, and Thunderwave, all of which Togekiss needs massive help with. Seems we're erring on the side of not making this core "too good" and not only going with a custom ability (which is typically discouraged) but a custom ability that is unnecessarily inferior to an existing in-game ability. I just don't get it.

 

[Anachronism]

The thing that I don't like about the proposed "Shockproof" is that it still doesn't save you from paralysis.

Here some of the other options available:

Trace is not specific enough for this CAP. We don't want something that only Checks Jolteon / Electivire and neglects the other Electric types, especially when we could be just giving it either of these abilities instead of giving it other random abilities that don't fulfill the concept.

Volt Absorb seems like a much better option by comparison. You get Thunder Wave immunity, and the extra healing allows CAP 11 to continue checking Togekiss counters despite having a mostly offensive build.

Motor Drive may very well be stretching things a bit when getting +2 / +1 is not inconceivable or even hard with it. However, at least we are fulfilling the concept with this. It seems quite epic on paper, but ultimately it is about forcing people to adapt to the new metagame. Yes, a new baton passing force means that you might have to give your Zapdos Drill Peck or Roar, or you might have to carry a Tentacruel or something to come in and Haze away the boosts, or alternatively lay down toxic spikes. Obviously such a good chain would create the need for change, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is broken.

These are essentially the only primary abilities that are logical, as dealing with the electric neutrality is of major importance. Ultimately the question is if we want to help out the baton pass chain aspect more or if we want them to be bulky offensive partners instead. I like the second one best, which is I will be voting for Volt Absorb, which allows CAP 11 to be an excellent pivot for Togekiss.

 

[Maga]

Well, with Trace out of the running, I guess I stand by Synchronize and Skill Link.

Synchronize being present does open some mind games (if CAP11 frequently partners with Kiss, then people may be unwilling to try throwing status for fear of getting shut down themselves), and it gels nicely with a partner who's got Heal Bell.

Skill Link, on the other hand, does handily check Zapdos when used in conjunction with Rock Blast. It provides a power 125 Super Effective move that can help beat even Sub-Roost variants. Granted, it's not the most reliable thing in the world, but it's still pretty nice.

 

[Gasoline]

First of all we can change Shockproof to give a paralysis immunity, so dont sit there saying "i dont like it because it cant do this" its a custom ability we can change it to how we like it, remember that.

I am really not seeing the appeal of Shockproof over Volt Absorb.

It loses one of the most important advantages of Volt Absorb (Thunderwave immunity), and although it has the whole "reduces speed disadvantage" thing a stage 1 speed drop combined with all your moves essentially having 75% accuracy is still a very detrimental thing.

And guess what? Despite having an Electric resistance we still lose to Jolteon and Zapdos if they carry a Life Orb. Jolteon's LO Thunderbolt -> HP Fighting is guaranteed a kill on CAP11. Zapdos' LO Thunderbolt -> Heat Wave is nearly guaranteed a kill, and it has the bulky to survive any of our attacks barring a random Stone Edge from Physical CAP11 (which...really should not exist). Even Specs Jolteon beats us unless we run at least 80 EVs in attack and use Close Combat (it has a good chance of surviving any LO-boosted special attack we're likely to get, barring Focus Blast which might not hit, and it also survives uninvested Close Combat around half the time).

I'm curious as to why people are choosing Shockproof in the first place. Is it because Volt Asorb s "too good"? That's really odd, because the only thing it helps with that Shockproof doesn't is Jolteon, Zapdos, and Thunderwave, all of which Togekiss needs massive help with. Seems we're erring on the side of not making this core "too good" and not only going with a custom ability (which is typically discouraged) but a custom ability that is unnecessarily inferior to an existing in-game ability. I just don't get it.

For 1: With Shockproof The most CAP11 takes from Jolteon's or Zapdos' T-Bolt is only about 30% so T-Bolt cannot just about 3HKO CAP11 and i'm sure Jolteon wont be carrying HP Fighting unless its only carrying it to kill CAP11 and then Jolteon loses coverage on a lot and most Jolteon are Specs imo so they'll be locked into T-Bolt, Zapdos we outspeed with CAP11 so it takes a T-Bolt and then uses the ever so great Stone Edge D: and yes Volt Absorb seems a bit too much as we dont want an IMMUNITY to electric rather a resistance because then even IF CAP11 is paired with gyarados it wont be as effective, gyarados prefers an electric immunity on its partner rather than a resistance, see our point? our goal is for togekiss NOT gyarados, and with shockproof we're basically supporting togekiss MORE than we are gyarados. Plus CAP11 seems too bulky for the whole Volt Absorb thing.... Do you really want something with just about Base 80 Defenses and 90 HP to get a 50%(or is it 25%? im not sure) HP recover just like *snap* that?

 

[FlareBlitz]

Gasoline, you should check your calcs. Both Specs Jolt and Specs Zapdos (does that even exist) handily 3hko CAP11 with Thunderbolt. LO Jolteon also frequently carries HP Fighting for Tyranitar.

We outspeed LO Zapdos, but we won't necessarily get Stone Edge, and we certainly may not have the moveslot for it or available EVs for it to actually KO Zapdos (it's not exactly frail). LO Jolteon just handily beats us.

The "we don't want a gyarados partner" is completely ridiculous and has already been covered multiple times. To re-iterate, CAP11 will not make a good gyarados partner because it cannot get past bulky waters. More relevantly, Shockproof in no way "hurts" a Gyarados partnership more than it does a Togekiss partnership, that doesn't even make any sense...

 

[Lucario_Guy]

It loses one of the most important advantages of Volt Absorb (Thunderwave immunity), and although it has the whole "reduces speed disadvantage" thing a stage 1 speed drop combined with all your moves essentially having 75% accuracy is still a very detrimental thing.

The thing that I don't like about the proposed "Shockproof" is that it still doesn't save you from paralysis.

Did you guys seriously just say what I think you said? I've already suggested (and been agreed with by another user) that we tailor Shockproof to include the effect of Limber (aka, paralysis immunity).

Read better.

If X-Act approves of the tinkering we've done with his ability (and I'm sure he's got an open mind), it's all good.

And guess what? Despite having an Electric resistance we still lose to Jolteon and Zapdos if they carry a Life Orb. Jolteon's LO Thunderbolt -> HP Fighting is guaranteed a kill on CAP11. Zapdos' LO Thunderbolt -> Heat Wave is nearly guaranteed a kill, and it has the bulky to survive any of our attacks barring a random Stone Edge from Physical CAP11 (which...really should not exist). Even Specs Jolteon beats us unless we run at least 80 EVs in attack and use Close Combat (it has a good chance of surviving any LO-boosted special attack we're likely to get, barring Focus Blast which might not hit, and it also survives uninvested Close Combat around half the time).

Every duo has its weaknesses. And when's the last time you've actually seen a LODos or SpecsJolt? They're extremely rare, and you can always slap a Swampert on your team if you're so worried about 'em.

I'm curious as to why people are choosing Shockproof in the first place. Is it because Volt Asorb s "too good"? That's really odd, because the only thing it helps with that Shockproof doesn't is Jolteon, Zapdos, and Thunderwave, all of which Togekiss needs massive help with. Seems we're erring on the side of not making this core "too good" and not only going with a custom ability (which is typically discouraged) but a custom ability that is unnecessarily inferior to an existing in-game ability. I just don't get it.

Again, Jolteon's rare as hell and is easily countered by Swampert if it lacks HP Grass, and Physically Bulky Zapdos (the only Zapdos you see anymore) is easily dealt with as illustrated by my calcs above. TWave is no longer a viable part of your argument, either.

Volt Absorb provides immunity to Electric attacks, something far more desirable to Gyarados than to Togekiss.

"But, CAP11 can't counter bulky waters, etc. that Gyarados hates anyway!"

That's a good thing, and should be reinforced by limiting CAP11's ability to tank Electric attacks, thus making it an even more undesirable Gyara partner. We want a Togekiss partner instead.

"Without Volt Absorb, CAP11 can't support Togekiss properly!"

Yes it can. A slightly modified Shockproof gives CAP11 enough Electric resistance to survive and KO common Togekiss checks (ie, Zapdos and Rotom-A), in addition to a Paralysis immunity.

"This custom ability is unnecessarily inferior!"

Inferior, yes. Unnecessarily, no. Read arguments above.

~~~~~~

I know I've repeated a few things, but it's for stressing points.



EDIT:
Oh, and CAP11 has access to HP Ice/Ground if you wanna hit Zapdos/Jolteon harder.

 

[Gasoline]

what i meant is Jolteon and Zapdos can only 3HKO CAP11 so it can come in to a T-bolt and take another one and nicely hit back with an attack that should KO the opponent's zapdos or Jolteon. Honestly Jolteon is not all that bulky, zapdos well like Lucario Guy said every partnership has its flaws... Carry a Swampert if you're so worried. Volt Absorb is way too broken for this CAP imo... Shockproof would be inferior, but its necessary to make sure we dont have Gyarados running around going "hit me with a T-Bolt and i send in a Bulky Pokemon that will fuck you over" honestly... Gyarados has a x4 weakness to Electric, Togekiss has a x2 weakness to it... why is it so important then to give CAP11 Volt Absorb if togekiss is only x2 weak to Electric, yet Gyarados is x4 weak... You people are being redundant saying "oh it wont help gyarados more then it would togekiss" of course it would... CAP11 may not kill Bulky Waters but it sure as hell will enjoy shutting down Vappy, Suicune, Pert etc with Taunt, which i'm sure it will get since Dark type, and it speed ties with starmie for a possible OHKO on it. Think twice before you say "this wont support gyarados more than togekiss"