Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[ItalianBaptist]

I've really been enjoying using Ash Greninja lately. Its able to acquire so much free damage early / mid-game thanks to the threat of Battle Bond forcing out low health / death fodder Pokemon, allowing it to weaken many of its checks with respectably powerful Dark Pulses and Hydro Pumps. Once Greninja transforms, its the ultimate cleaner since it outspeeds a majority of the unboosted metagame and 1-2 shots everything with its frighteningly powerful Hydro Pumps and Dark Pulses. Greninja also has a very powerful priority Water Shuriken against faster mons like CS Genesect and Pheromosa, meaning they are hardly safe responses.

Greninja has some issues with Fat Grass and Water types like Mantine and Tapu Bulu, but pairing it up with things like Tapu Koko, Celesteela, and CB Genesect can usually resolve these issues.

I'm glad to see other trainers consider how Ash-Greninja could be viable competitively. I've been using him as a poor-man's Pheromosa in game because everybody's talking about him being a glass cannon, but I'd like to really look into what he can do. Can we get a thread devoted to him specifically?

 

[playerW17]

I think Arbok is completely unviable and should never be used. It isnt even bulky enough to take any good hits from anything in the OU metagame, really.

Latios should be a solid pokemon when the meta winds down, but right now almost all of the FOTM mons such as the Tapu's and Bug spam + Ash Greninja are all unfavourable matchups for it.

 

[Morningstar]

I'm glad to see other trainers consider how Ash-Greninja could be viable competitively. I've been using him as a poor-man's Pheromosa in game because everybody's talking about him being a glass cannon, but I'd like to really look into what he can do. Can we get a thread devoted to him specifically?

It depends. I'll ask the mods

 

[Jahordon]

A lot of people are playing rain right now, and I think it's good, but it gets walled by Fini and has to really play around Bulu. I've seen teams with both Kingdra and Kabutops, but I have a proposal: Qwilfish. Qwilfish is the only swift swimmer that can punch through Fini, and I think that's worth something. Also, a swift swim explosion can really come in clutch to save the game.

 

[baddjordan]

If we did an S tier at the moment I think it would look like

Greninja - You can't give it a kill or it outspeeds koko and sweeps
Tapu Koko - I run both Volt Switch and U-turn, there isnt much reason not to use it. Scarf Dug has come out because of this mon.

Lele is borderline, there are a few A-Muks and Margerna giving it hell. Next candidates would be Genesect and Pheramosa.

 

[Ema Skye]

S tier would be Hoopa-U, Greninja and Genesect without much question. Maybe Magearna as well, as its kind of the new Clefable.

Koko is good but it's honestly too predictable. I have no idea what the other three are going to do the moment they switch in.

 

[Callmeyeshua]

S tier would be Hoopa-U, Greninja and Genesect without much question. Maybe Magearna as well, as its kind of the new Clefable.

Koko is good but it's honestly too predictable. I have no idea what the other three are going to do the moment they switch in.

I honestly haven't seen too many hoopas and I'm pretty high up on the ladder right now. Its mostly hyper offense and I guess it really doesn't get too many chances to come in against the rampant u turn spam.

S tier for me would def be like Phero, Gene, Lele

I've never been too afraid Koko tbh, and its every where but it never gives me trouble because I run phero, scarf lele, espeed gene, and mzam. It literally can't do anything against that safely.

Magearna is also probably S. Its honestly the the pokemon that gives my team the most trouble out of anything. Shift Gear variants just destroy everything and I have to outplay to figure out a win con against it.

 

[Goodstyle]

Tapu Fini's worst nightmare is getting poisoned, and the best way to do that is to lay down T-Spikes against teams that have it. I've noticed that teams that have Fini tend to have it as the only pokemon capable of removing hazards, which means if your opponent's team wants to remove the spikes, they basically have to switch in with Fini and eat the poison. The only way around this is if they have a poison type of their own. Even just regular poison just completely ruins Tapu Fini. It has no recovery, and the poison whittles them down surprisingly quickly.

So if you have a Nihilego or Toxapex, and you see your opponent has Tapu Fini as their hazard removal mon, make sure to lay down this spikes before they have an opportunity to switch in and set up their mist.

 

[Shurtugal]

I also notice a lot of fini players don't keep track of misty terrain turns (using protect with Alomomola than hitting fini with toxic when the terrain ends... come on, you deserve to lose for falling for that lmao).

 

[Kutscher]

when we will get an OU VR?

 

[Chaoswalker]

when we will get an OU VR?

Lol as much as I'd like to see it, that probably should wait at least until UU exists.

 

[Gotham Paladin]

I've noticed between early ORAS and this early meta right now both have something in common, which is more usage of shed shell. I feel that if you run Magnezone, I would recommend putting knock off on something such as your Landorus-t to get rid of them and create mind games with your opponent. Because shed shell is a huge game changer sometimes, such as if your opponent has a Skarm + Dugtrio. Just wanted to bring this up, and I do believe shed shell is the best item on your steel types right now just because Magnezone is just everywhere.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

shed shell is awesome on magetzone just because of the crazy u-turn teams that leave it no options but to be trapped. but I feel it really needs choice items in the match-ups outside of fighting trappers

Question, is grenija broken yet?

I have 4 checks to it on my team 2 sash, one choice scarf and it still smashes through my teams that don't run toxpex, idk while bulky waters do stop most of it's sets, it can still play with spikes/taunt/u-turn, it is stupid hard to read and bypasses any offensive switch in with it's choice of u-turn or water shriken

 

[nameless90]

I find Greninja a little too broken for OU (alongside with, at least, other three pokemons) for 2 reasons:
(1) Protean Greninja is good offensively because punches holes into opposite teams with relative ease because of the STAB multiplier on every move. Having good stats and ability + good movepool from 122 base Spe is huge. There is literally no reason to not run this monster (except in stall teams, of course). If you predict the switch-in of a check, you can simply U-turn and keeping the momentum with a fast U-turn.
(2) Its newfound ability, Battle Bond, is another viable option if you want to use this thing as a late game cleaner (= when opponent's pokemons don't have 100% HP left). Its ability is really simple to trigger and, basically, you have a huge boost to your Atk and SpA at the same time underlined by LO (in this case the damage output really goes out of control). Basically you have another Mega in your team (because every Megastone boost stats by 100 points, Ash-Greninja gets + 110, albeit until you switch out). Not only that, but you have a Spe boost to clean the opposite team even more easily (from 122 to 132, outspeeding Tapu Koko).

So yes, Greninja is still broken and now as even a dedicated cleaning set with Parental Bond which boosts its Spe by 10 points, thus making harder to revenge kill while still keeping the offensive bonus of Protean.

A simple calc to show the power difference between the two forms:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xurkitree: 265-312 (86.3 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xurkitree: 192-227 (62.5 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xurkitree: 216-255 (70.3 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Ash-Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xurkitree: 351-413 (114.3 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Ash-Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xurkitree: 191-226 (62.2 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Ash-Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xurkitree: 253-300 (82.4 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Keep in mind that with base 132 Spe Timid Ash-Greninja + 248 EVs outspeeds and kills Scarfed Timid Xurkitree with one hit. Ash Greninja hits 20% harder than its original counterpart with Water/Dark STABs, whereas loses 8% of power when using coverage moves.

 

[LunaStik]

I find Greninja a little too broken for OU (alongside with, at least, other three pokemons) for 2 reasons:
(1) Protean Greninja is good offensively because punches holes into opposite teams with relative ease because of the STAB multiplier on every move. Having good stats and ability + good movepool from 122 base Spe is huge. There is literally no reason to not run this monster (except in stall teams, of course). If you predict the switch-in of a check, you can simply U-turn and keeping the momentum with a fast U-turn.
(2) Its newfound ability, Parental Bond, is another viable option if you want to use this thing as a late game cleaner (= when opponent's pokemons don't have 100% HP left). Its ability is really simple to trigger and, basically, you have a huge boost to your Atk and SpA at the same time underlined by LO (in this case the damage output really goes out of control). Basically you have another Mega in your team (because every Megastone boost stats by 100 points, Ash-Greninja gets + 110, albeit until you switch out). Not only that, but you have a Spe boost to clean the opposite team even more easily (from 122 to 132, outspeeding Tapu Koko).

So yes, Greninja is still broken and now as even a dedicated cleaning set with Parental Bond which boosts its Spe by 10 points, thus making harder to revenge kill while still keeping the offensive bonus of Protean.

A simple calc to show the power difference between the two forms:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xurkitree: 265-312 (86.3 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xurkitree: 216-255 (70.3 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Ash-Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xurkitree: 351-413 (114.3 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Ash-Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xurkitree: 286-339 (93.1 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Keep in mind that with base 132 Spe Timid Ash-Greninja + 248 EVs outspeed Scarfed Timid Xurkitree.

I think you mean Battle Bond, and Ash-Greninja can't have Protean

 

[Ema Skye]

Ash-Greninja can't have all of the coverage that regular Greninja has since it doesn't get access to move tutors. That means no Gunk Shot.

 

[Vengeance417]

Ash-Greninja can't have all of the coverage that regular Greninja has since it doesn't get access to move tutors. That means no Gunk Shot.

I feel Ash-Greninja doesn't really need it. Specs Ash-Greninja only really needs Shuriken, Pump, Pulse and U-Turn. The reason to run Ash-Greninja over Protean is for utilizing its Water/Dark STABs way better than Protean ever could, as well as the buffed Water Shuriken. If you're gonna use coverage moves, Protean Greninja's better at that since they're stronger on it.

 

[Ema Skye]

Yeah, I don't think it needs them. I know it would've liked the coverage for things like Fini and Alomom though.

 

[Vengeance417]

Yeah, I don't think it needs them. I know it would've liked the coverage for things like Fini and Alomom though.

True, but even then, Protean can change to the Poison typing to resist the incoming Moonblast when using Gunk Shot.

Specs Dark Pulse from Ash-Ninja does a ton to Alomomola, though.

252 SpA Choice Specs Ash-Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 253-298 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

No Alomomola run this spread, but the fact Ash-Ninja can do this much to a max max Mola is ridiculous.

 

[Shurtugal]

Yeah but Alomomola can deny greninja form change so in actuality it won't do that much damage, but still a decent chunk.

 

[Morkal]

Protean Greninja gets coverage
Ash Greninja gets power
The fact that its two movepools are basically separated + the power creep this gen makes it balanced.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Protean Greninja gets coverage
Ash Greninja gets power
The fact that its two movepools are basically separated + the power creep this gen makes it balanced.

Which is it running? I really think when people start running spikes on it it'll really throw the world for a loop. It's legal to run T/spikes, u turn, taunt, water shriken and invest in bulk/special attack and it smashes it's sashed/choice scarf counters while preventing other hazards, stacking it's own and keeping solid team monument.

Also let's not forget how amazing it is for anyone right now to click u turn when they expect a switch and to trap something with magetzone/dugtrio.

Idk it just super fluid, lele got me raging for a while but I figured out how to deal with it when it was used as a counter lead to my mega sableye

 

[heavylobster43]

Honestly

A lot of big stuff running around absolutely shits on Latios: The Tapus as Fairies (Fini also neuters Draco Meteors on teammates), Specs Ash-Greninja scares it out even before it transforms, Magearna shits on any set without HP Fire, there's Celesteela, Skarmory, more niche stuff like SubRoost Decidueye and Mimkyu (OHKOs at +2 with Shadow Sneak using Disguise for set up), and the things that just shit on everything (Genesect, Protean Greninja, Pheromosa) also don't do him any favors.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 306-362 (102.3 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Pre shift Ash-ninja)

Top that off with missing out on the Terrains (Lele's priority protection and Fini's Status immunity when absorbing Scalds) meaning he doesn't gain the same degree of support from running with the Tapus, the shift doesn't look very kind to Latios. Given time for a couple more suspects to get addressed that might change, but the going for Latios doesn't look too great right now.

Also note that pretty much every team right now is running a Lele check, and just about anything that gives Lele problems will give them problems as well. Latias as a Defog pivot is probably better right now in most cases, as the current meta is basically Steels and Fairies, which makes it tough to really get much going offensively with the Latis. Maybe a lure Latios set or something might work, but his standard sets aren't as effective.

 

[Morningstar]

Honestly

Also note that pretty much every team right now is running a Lele check, and just about anything that gives Lele problems will give them problems as well. Latias as a Defog pivot is probably better right now in most cases, as the current meta is basically Steels and Fairies, which makes it tough to really get much going offensively with the Latis. Maybe a lure Latios set or something might work, but his standard sets aren't as effective.

Can you describe the Latias set?

 

[heavylobster43]

Can you describe the Latias set?

Defog Latias is pretty standard, just Defog + Roost + 2 attacks. If you mean the lure Latios, then it just depends on what you're looking to lure out. One idea was Dragon Dance + Z-Earthquake to KO Metagross and Jirachi. In general for sets running 3-4 attacks it's probably better to run stuff like Tbolt for things like Fini and Celesteela as opposed to Surf, as Ttar isn't super relevant and it really just hits Heatran now. Really the meta just plain isn't friendly to dragons who don't have a strong second STAB to deal with their checks like Chomp and Zard-X, so the Latis are relegated to being niche picks.