Monotype Viability Rankings

[Freeroamer]

Psychic may be a top type but it doesn't have 8 pokemon defining the metagame. S ranked pokemon should be those that you find it difficult to justify building a team without, such is their risk/reward payoff. Certainly the idea of 3 Megas sharing the rank is something I find extremely strange.

 

[Dece1t]

Psychic may be a top type but it doesn't have 8 pokemon defining the metagame. S ranked pokemon should be those that you find it difficult to justify building a team without, such is their risk/reward payoff. Certainly the idea of 3 Megas sharing the rank is something I find extremely strange.

Freeroamee, tbh I do agree with you, but most of them are pretty s rank material tbh, maybe the exception being Meloetta bc of hoopa. Psychic just has rly good mons, period.

I can't do double replies on mobile rip, but Joshz, I disagree with everything you said. Chansey is THE beat sp def wall in the game, and great utility. Manaphy can break every core in the game, hence why it was pushed for S rank. Nidoking has fantastic coverage, and is poisons best special sweeper, and sometimes wallbreaker. Thundy on flying has priority twave, and, all around great special attacker, I don't think that should be dropped. Latias is Dragons best utility, for defog, healing wish, screens, ect. Provides a lot of much needed support to a typically hyper offensive type. Sorry for shooting you down, but, what you said would be a bit of a crazy decision.

 

[Freeroamer]

so you're saying Psychic has 8 pokemon who all have little opportunity cost, define the metagame, provide near flawless offensive and defensive support and are advantageous pokemon to have in nearly every matchup. I can't begin to believe that's actually true and what we want to reflect on our viability rankings. In my eyes it's a contradiction to have more than 6 because if there are so many of these great pokemon that you can't fit into one team then surely some have to have noticeable niches over the others?

 

[Dece1t]

so you're saying Psychic has 8 pokemon who all have little opportunity cost, define the metagame, provide near flawless offensive and defensive support and are advantageous pokemon to have in nearly every matchup. I can't begin to believe that's actually true and what we want to reflect on our viability rankings. In my eyes it's a contradiction to have more than 6 because if there are so many of these great pokemon that you can't fit into one team then surely some have to have noticeable niches over the others?

Well, let's break it down. How did these mons get to S rank in the first place? I'm on mobile atm, but when I get home I can do an in depth analysis on each s ranked psychic mon, so we know exactly what we need to discuss, and what mons couldn't make an argument to be dropped to a rank.

 

[Sae]

An observation: I see a ton of suggestions for 'mons that should rise in the rankings, but very few for 'mons that should fall. Inflating these rankings dilutes their effectiveness.

I skim this thread once or twice a week to make sure I'm keeping up w/ how things are going and there have been 3-4 (mostly irrelevant) suggestions for drops (Volbeat, Gorebyss, Avalugg, maybe another?) since the massive shift w/ Zapdos/Gene/M-Gallade/CharX.

Zapdos is a metagame defining 'mon that influences most type's building. M-Gallade has a bigger effect on its own type, but is really good nonetheless. What 'mons have become less viable as a result of Zapdos and M-Gallade entering the tier?

For example, Mega-Medi is S-rank on Psychic. It is an awesome 'mon, but there is no way it warrants S-rank when it is generally considered to be outclassed by M-Garde and M-Gallade.
Where do you guys think Mega-Medi should fall to?

I'll quote this post as I think this is probably the most relevant to the issue. The reason we've had this dilution of ranks is mainly due to lack of time to shift through ranks again. Anttya and I are working on it right now. I do agree with the dropping mons, but part of the problem I think besides the lack of time is the amount of people who suggests things being moved up with probably an example of how the metagame trends favor it, but not putting a reason why others should drop.

If more people could suggest stuff that need to be dropped per type, then we could see where they actually should go. Albeit this will start to dilute A-ranks for a short bit, but those can be fixed when I can get a hold of Anttya to do a massive shift. After all these shifts, I think we can go back to normal discussions about what needs to be dropped or raised (but this time hopefully people will nominate a rise and fall when they do this).

 

[Acast]

Freeroamee, tbh I do agree with you, but most of them are pretty s rank material tbh, maybe the exception being Meloetta bc of hoopa. Psychic just has rly good mons, period.

I can't do double replies on mobile rip, but Joshz, I disagree with everything you said. Chansey is THE beat sp def wall in the game, and great utility. Manaphy can break every core in the game, hence why it was pushed for S rank. Nidoking has fantastic coverage, and is poisons best special sweeper, and sometimes wallbreaker. Thundy on flying has priority twave, and, all around great special attacker, I don't think that should be dropped. Latias is Dragons best utility, for defog, healing wish, screens, ect. Provides a lot of much needed support to a typically hyper offensive type. Sorry for shooting you down, but, what you said would be a bit of a crazy decision.

When you have a lot of good pokemon, decisions need to be made as to which mons are most necessary. With the exception of Chansey, I agree with every rank change Joshz suggested. All the Pokemon he listed are incredibly important to their respective types, but they are not all S rank material. If they are S rank by the current definition, then maybe we need to redefine it, because S should be a very exclusive few mons per type, not a list of every pokemon that should be used on each type. Nidoking is great for poison, but you can manage to make a team without it and be very successful. Same with Manaphy. No one would be surprised to see a Water team without Manaphy, so why is it S? Again, I disagree on Chansey being moved down, but the rest are perfectly reasonable suggestions.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Machamp from C to A/B "The Underrated Threat"

Machamp @ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 72 HP / 216 Atk / 84 Def / 136 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch/Stone Edge
- Knock Off/Poison Jab
- Bullet Punch
REASONS/EXPLANATION:
So looking at Machamp hes basically going to a substitute for Conk but basically a more bulky one on the special defense side. Machamp is Highly offensive but he also has a decent spdef stat. Hes supported well by S-Ranked Keldeo Terrakion and Mega-Gallade all somewhat bulky pokemon whose typing duos may work well for them. Not forgetting Coballion who is usually ran on the bulky side which helps support Machamp a good amount. Hes a check to thundurus who can take his special attacks as well as his thunder wave which will just give him a boost by his Guts ability. This will allow him to just kill with a Ice Punch or Stone Edge. Not to mention he can eat up Toxic and Will-o-Wisp as well as moves like Tspikes will help.
MOVES:
Close Combat is basically there to hit hard. Since sadly Machamp doesnt get drain punch the set would be more of a take a hit and get a kill or do major damage.
Ice Punch is there to hit all kinds of pokemon mainly Flying of course. It OHKO's Lando and Thundrus pokemon you may see alot. it also can OHKO Togekiss. Also helps with Dragons.
Stone edge is mainly just a substitute to hit pokemon like Charizard Y who have been a bit of a problem for fighting teams.
Bullet Punch is there for some nice priority not to mention the nice help it has against Fairy types who can be a headache against Fighting
Knock Off/Poison Jab is more of just type coverage. all though knock off can be pretty helpful due to the items they might take away from there a opponent for instance a sitrius berry from Azu.
Defensive Calcs
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 76 HP / 136 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 302-356 (88.8 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 76 HP / 84 Def Machamp: 338-402 (99.4 - 118.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO -you might die but its nice to know
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 76 HP / 136 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 273-322 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 76 HP / 136 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 200-236 (58.8 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 76 HP / 84 Def Machamp: 212-252 (62.3 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 76 HP / 136 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 200-237 (58.8 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Latios Psyshock vs. 76 HP / 84 Def Machamp: 288-338 (84.7 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212+ Atk Machamp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 272-322 (90.9 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO - hazard/life =dead
252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 76 HP / 136 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 152-182 (44.7 - 53.5%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 76 HP / 136 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 237-281 (69.7 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212+ Atk Machamp Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 147-174 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 76 HP / 136 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 320-377 (94.1 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 76 HP / 136 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 260-307 (76.4 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -not even sashed
252 SpA Hoopa Psychic vs. 76 HP / 136 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 236-282 (69.4 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa-U Psychic vs. 76 HP / 136 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 307-367 (90.2 - 107.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa-U Zen Headbutt vs. 76 HP / 84 Def Machamp: 332-392 (97.6 - 115.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
152+ Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. 76 HP / 84 Def Machamp: 240-284 (70.5 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Meloetta Psychic vs. 76 HP / 136 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 250-296 (73.5 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 76 HP / 84 Def Machamp: 292-345 (85.8 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Victini Zen Headbutt vs. 76 HP / 84 Def Machamp: 260-308 (76.4 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 76 HP / 136 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 242-288 (71.1 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 76 HP / 84 Def Machamp: 300-354 (88.2 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO - zenheadbutt isnt 100%ohko but close


Offensive Calcs
212+ Atk Machamp Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 384-452 (120.3 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
212+ Atk Guts Machamp Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 350-412 (117 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
212+ Atk Guts Machamp Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 274-324 (88.1 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
212+ Atk Machamp Poison Jab vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 266-314 (95 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
212+ Atk Machamp Ice Punch vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 222-262 (74 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212+ Atk Machamp Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-U: 352-415 (116.9 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
212+ Atk Machamp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Meloetta: 282-332 (82.4 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO-dead after rocks/priorty
216+ Atk Guts Machamp Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 274-324 (84.8 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO -if rocks break multiscale it OHKO if not chance to kill

Ev Spread
No speed Evs really needed i can already out speed Azu if not speed invested. Slowbro is slow enough to take a nice knock off to get rid of those leftovers. I put enough Attack where Machamp can do serious damage or rack up some kills. Enough Special Defense so machamp can take some hits from the threats. As well as Defense to tank some more physical hits. Unless Gard/Mega Gard runs max SpAtk then Machamp has a high chance of living a hit. So really its nothing really special its just bulk with enough attack to still make it good.

Reasoning for Rank Up
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that can easily play a role against a majority of type matchups with ease, meaning it will never be useless in any matchup. These Pokemon need little to no support (which can be easily given) for them to do their job (Both Defensive and Offensive). They are easy to bring in and out, and often with little to no risk (Mostly Defensive). They can fulfill a ton of roles depending on what you need, and they surpass other Pokemon who have the same role. These Pokemon define the metagame.
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have S rank qualities, but need support (which can be easily given) in order for them to be successful. These Pokemon can play a role against most type match ups, but they may be hard walled by 1-2 types. However, these Pokemon are mostly used for one or two of their sets meaning that they can be predictable. These Pokemon influence the Metagame.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are good but they need support (which may be hard to give) for them to function. These Pokemon are used to check your counters once or twice, meaning that it cannot switch in and out repeatedly. Pokemon in this rank can have a positive type match up sometimes, but they may be useless in others. These Pokemon are adaptable to the metagame.
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are only used to check a threat once or twice. These Pokemon often run unorthodox sets since their primary niches are outclassed by other Pokemon. Since they run unorthodox sets some Pokemon can set up on them without fear. These Pokemon need a lot of support (which may be hard to give) for them to function.These Pokemon have a hard time adapting to the metagame.

By all the ranks shown above Machamp is currently sitting in C. Machamps aren't really running unorthodox sets and they can really pack a punch leaving it hard for pokemon to set up on them. C isnt the right Rank for Machamp. Machamp may be useless in some situations and does need some support that is easily given. Machamp can't be a S rank but that doesn't mean he can't rank up. Machamp gets necessary support from most of the standards of fighting teams. Breloom can do damage or clean up for Machamp as well as Terrakion. If he needs some extra bulk Coballion is always there. Keldeo also provides good coverage. Most of these Pokemon don't want to be statused but Machamp will take it with Joy :p. Machamp may only have 1-3 sets or so making him a bit predictable. Machamp easily falls between A or B. The only real problem is hes not used much so hes underrated. Problem? This just makes him less predictable. This is the reason Machamp should be Ranked Up


Major Threats:
Azumarill(Huge Power) Machamp cant really take a play rough from Huge power Azumarill but its nice to note that if its sap sipper you might get a knock off or poison jab off(Breloom support needed)
Slowbro- Machamp cant really do a whole lot to him a nice knock off for the leftys but that's pretty much it(Breloom support needed)
Mega-Pinsir Machamp cant really take a hit or outspeed. Fighting teams in general have a big problem for this pokemon.
Skarmory Machamp can get walled a bit by roost Skarmory not to mention a brave bird does hurt.
Gard/Mega-Gard can do serious damage to fighting teams but Machamp can live one and deal serious damage back or even get the kill although he still will take major damage.

Nice, but as Infernape Tropius Derp Guy has said, it has a good No Guard Dynamic Punch. Machamp should be B Rank in my opinion, as it is outclassed by Mega Conkeldurr and Primal Qwilfish but Dynamic Punch No Guard is a viable set. An Assault Vest set is actually viable and you sure did a lot of good research for your rate, so my opinion stands on B Rank.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Mega Abomasnow for A Rank
Well, we all know that Mega Abomasnow isn't a very good Pokemon, with bad typing and shallow movepool forcing it to usually go mixed, but let's face it, it's probably going to be your Mega of choice, as it provides Hail. Since it is one of two Hail-Setters in Monotype Ice, the other being Aurorus (who has the worst typing in all of Pokemon, and low base stats in general)who cannot do much else that can be easily replicated in Monotype Ice. It's the best Hail setter on Monotype Ice, making use of Rotom-Fridge's legendary BoltBeam STAB, and causing always-hit Blizzards. In no way is it a good Pokemon, but it is the best Hail setter on a Mono Ice Team.

 

[DoW]

Normal: Chansey S > A; plays a very similar role to P2, but p2 takes hits a lot better on the physical side and only slightly wrse on the special. A lot of teams have both, but really Chansey isn't all that amazing. Plus it doesn't help much at all against normal ' worst 2 matchups (ghost/fighting) whereas p2 can put in a lot of work. Overall Chansey just isn't amazing in the mono meta and S rank is too cluttered.

I'd just like to respond to this point. Chansey is extremely important to any Normal Stall team (a very strong playstyle) while at the same time extremely useful to balanced teams. There's a number of reasons for this:
Firstly, it's practically the only viable Stealth Rock setter unless you're going for Smeargle HO:

Secondly, it forms an extremely strong core alongside Porygon2. It most certainly isn't outclassed by porygon2: 252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in Sun: 172-204 (45.9 - 54.5%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO
Because of this it almost always run a physically defensive p2 spread:

And finally, it's got the second highest usage on normal teams, only 3% lower in usage than Staraptor. I honestly can't think of a good normal team that didn't feature it, and its usage simply reflects its incredibly high utility.

 

[Dece1t]

When you have a lot of good pokemon, decisions need to be made as to which mons are most necessary. With the exception of Chansey, I agree with every rank change Joshz suggested. All the Pokemon he listed are incredibly important to their respective types, but they are not all S rank material. If they are S rank by the current definition, then maybe we need to redefine it, because S should be a very exclusive few mons per type, not a list of every pokemon that should be used on each type. Nidoking is great for poison, but you can manage to make a team without it and be very successful. Same with Manaphy. No one would be surprised to see a Water team without Manaphy, so why is it S? Again, I disagree on Chansey being moved down, but the rest are perfectly reasonable suggestions.

Acast, if anything TBH, I'd drop Gengar or Scoli over Nidoking. They're more so A rank material than him. More So Gengar I think. As you said as well, what about Azumarill? It's S ranked, but people don't always use it, and water teams are usually fine without it (unless we're talking stall water). Manaphy straight up breaks every defensive core in the game, and with relative ease. I personally think that should remain S rank. Anyways, the trend is, S ranked mons don't need to be on every team, but the reason they're S is because they define the metagame. Nidoking definatley defines it, and more recently manaphy as it's becoming a much bigger threat as it's usage continuously rises.

Mega Abomasnow for A Rank
Well, we all know that Mega Abomasnow isn't a very good Pokemon, with bad typing and shallow movepool forcing it to usually go mixed, but let's face it, it's probably going to be your Mega of choice, as it provides Hail. Since it is one of two Hail-Setters in Monotype Ice, the other being Aurorus (who has the worst typing in all of Pokemon, and low base stats in general)who cannot do much else that can be easily replicated in Monotype Ice. It's the best Hail setter on Monotype Ice, making use of Rotom-Fridge's legendary BoltBeam STAB, and causing always-hit Blizzards. In no way is it a good Pokemon, but it is the best Hail setter on a Mono Ice Team.

No. Your right that it is the only viable hail setter for ice atm, but 1, little pokemon can take advantage of it efficiently, and 2, Mega Aboma's typing doesn't really help much, if at all. It's a nice pokemon, but it's not gonna leave B rank just yet.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

No. Your right that it is the only viable hail setter for ice atm, but 1, little pokemon can take advantage of it efficiently, and 2, Mega Aboma's typing doesn't really help much, if at all. It's a nice pokemon, but it's not gonna leave B rank just yet.

Yeah, Mega Abomasnow isn't a very good Pokemon but it's the best Mega of Choice.

 

[Vid]

Now that we are at the topic of drops at the moment for S Rank mons i like to propose one that was a very controversial A-->S rank change.
Togekiss (Fairy) S--->A
Why S--->A?

Overall i would never consider Togekiss as a Pokemon that always keeps the fairy team together like glue like Pokemon like klefiki azumaril and clefable do. Sure Togekiss can run many sets but the best reason to use it for a scarfer or a defoger. Also it faces competition from normal gard (yes not mega) as a scarfer on fairy because of Gard having healing wish and having the same base speed and similar special attacking stats(its 5 Hiigher for Gard ). Also the scarf set relies on flinches although in favor not an optimal way to for an s rank mon to function of hax that is only 60%. The other reason to use it is defog. Sure defog is nice but togekiss is the mon that makes your fairy team weak to rocks while every other member on fairy takes 12 or 6 percent from Stealth Rocks. Also I am not forgetting to mention that Mega diancie can also bounce back hazards and status. Although it may have heal bell which is useful vs secondary effects but again gard with healing wish can do the same job with a Mega Diancie. The next set is nasty plot which I think is a decent set to break stall with although some of the things it breaks your whole team already beats. Also most of the time Togekiss needs screens to take hard physical hits for nasty plot set unlike clef and azuma which like screens but do not necessarily need them majority of the time because of them not taking 25 percent from sr. Sure its a very good Pokemon on fairy but it does not define the meta like klefiki, azuma, or clef does. So because this Pokemon needs support which is easily given from fairy, but it does not define the meta it certainly does influence the meta but Togekiss on fairy does not define the type as Clefable Klefiki Azuma and Mega Diancie do. So Togekiss S--->A

 

[Arash]

my thoughts on all the things going on...

**S-ranks being demoted: while i agree with the concept, some types (psychic) legitimately have more than 6 mons worthy of an S-rank, including more than one mega. All this means is that the S-rank megas are good in their own way, and it depends on how you want to build your team. That said, most types should realistically have 2-4 S-ranks, I think. Having 6 or more S-ranks is essentially telling a new monotype player, "Hey, if you want to do well just pick these 6 pokemon and use their standard sets.. bam instant team". Psychic and perhaps flying are the exceptions as these mons are all excellent choices for a team, to the effect that even using A-ranks over one of these means you're making your team worse somehow.

S-ranks on poison, for example, should only include mega-venusaur (obv), and gengar (who is very versatile and can find a use on any type of team). nidoking is one dimensional and imo is overall worse than nidoqueen for a mono-poison; while it can break walls, poison has more problems with HO than walls and nidoking isn't any help against anything faster than it (which is a lot of mons). Scolipede is the same way now that it can't pass 2 stats; while it's a good attacker, it is walled by several mons that are a problem for poison as a whole. The poison/darks, while essential, both have their uses and neither is really a must have over the other. These other mons are the type that are deserving of an A-rank; they are excellent choices for your monoteam, but a good team can be built without these mons. A monopoison team without mega-venu or gengar, however, simply cannot compete as well as a team with both of them.

**Mega-Abomasnow is definitely deserving of B rank; its problem is not so much that it is a crappy mon, but more that auto-hail isn't worth running megasnow on your team. It has the worst synergy possible with your team, losing to almost every single fighting/fire/steel/rock type and ice can easily find 6 mons worth running over it. Ice is a type with subpar megas for its needs (like electric and dragon), and making a team without a mega for these types is not only viable, but often preferred.

**With these changes to S-rank, A-rank and possibly B-rank will be inflated. This is actually a good thing, as there are many mons that are viable and effective in monotype. Only a few are necessary for a good team (the S-ranks) but really the A-ranks should be a selection of mons that you can use and have success with. This is, imo, what the viability rankings should reflect.

EDIT: someone should remove mega-charizard X from fire A-rank...

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Venomoth for D Rank On Mono Poison
Same thing with Gorebyss, now that the Baton Pass clause has been reworked, I don't think it has any notable niche anymore. There is no reason to use it without Quiver Dance passing, and now that is illegal, so it should be a lower rank.

 

[Vid]

Cloyster (Water) C--->B

Overall with Zapdos being readded to monotype meta i feel like this Pokemon is a more viable on Water team because it breaks Zapdos Skarm core (needs hydro and sr up to beat skarm at plus 2 special attack). I feel this niche is very good when flying teams are rising in usage and it does a number to them. Icicle Spear being able to beat Dragonite with ease. Basically vs flying Cloyster ohkos at least 4 out of 6 of the flying team. This Pokemon has a big niche with being able to decimate flying teams. This Pokemon effects the meta game giving water an option to crush bulky flying teams with ease. Also CXloyster does a number vs dragon which water have a bit of trouble with (without azumaril). Also it can set up spikes t spikes and rapid spin. It is not as good as shell smash but it is a niche. I feel this Pokemon is overlooked at how viable it actually is when it breaks the best type atm and does a number to mid tier types as well. Overall this Pokemon has a significant niche on water. So Cloyster C-->B Rank (Water)

 

[Vid]

Mega Gardevoir & Gardevoir B--->A (Fairy)
Why B-->A for Mega Gardevoir

Mega Diancie may be a better mega in majority of situations but I fell like this Pokemon was underranked because it was ranked when Mega Mawy was still in the meta. Overall its ability to click hyper voice is just amazing with its decent SpDef allowing it take some hits well. Also it can carry taunt to break stall and prevent hazards as well. Also being part Psychic type offers it good secondary stab for fairy it allowing it ohko almost every Pokemon on a poison team. Focus Blast Energy Ball etc. are all good coverage moves allowing it beat certain threats that its good Psychic+Fairy Coverage does not beat. This Pokemon is very viable option as a mega on fairy team although it is not as good as Mega Dianice it still packs a punch and helps fairy beat certain Pokemon that it has a hard time with. Overall I feel this Pokemon was not locked under a new meta that's it should be B--->A (Fairy)
Why B--->A Gardevoir (Fairy)

This Pokemon is probably the best Scarfer on fairy. Sure Togekiss is a great Scarfer but this Pokemon does not rely on flinches and it also hits poison types hard. Also on Scarf set healing wish is ran making a Pokemon that is crippled into a fully healthy Pokemon. ex: Someone puts your Azumaril to 10% and its burned you healing wish it up and it is back in the game like nothing happened. Also it has Trick being able to cripple Pokemon like Chansey and P2 etc. Also it has great coverage moves(Focus Blast, Thunderbolt, Energy Ball,) (support moves Trick, Healing Wish) . Also this Pokemon uses ability trace which can sometimes be useful depending on what ability you get. The Choice Scarf set just helps fairy so much and it is a very great option to put on your fairy team. Let quickly go over the moves as well Moonblast is a very powerful stab Move. Psyshock is there poison types and Pokemon that are weak on physically defensive side. Overall this is the best Scarfer on fairy because of that I say Gardevoir B--->A (Fairy)

 

[Gerard]

The problem to me is that most pokemon in S don't actually match the description of the rank:

Reserved for Pokemon that can easily play a role against a majority of type matchups with ease, meaning it will never be useless in any matchup. These Pokemon need little to no support (which can be easily given) for them to do their job (Both Defensive and Offensive). They are easy to bring in and out, and often with little to no risk (Mostly Defensive). They can fulfill a ton of roles depending on what you need, and they surpass other Pokemon who have the same role. These Pokemon define the metagame.

A good example is Psychic. Mew, Slowbro, Meloetta, all of this are amazing pokemon, but they require support, they are not independent. Slowbro needs someone to take on special attackers, Meloetta needs one to take on physical ones, Mew is the one which requires the least support but he doesn't actually destroy any team (except Stall Breaker Mew at times), they provide the support to the team, but they are not S. They are amazing yes, but they cannot carry a win on their own.

I think most pokemon in S fall under this, they provide great support to their other, more powerful teammates, or they give the team an answer against one type / pokemon that would otherwise destroy the team, but they are not a pokemon to be feared. If my opponent sees that I carry MegaGallade then he or she will be careful, not giving me opportunities to set up / megavolve. If my opponent sees Slowbro or Mew, then knows that they have to be weakened / eliminated if X or Y pokemon want to sweep but will not be as careful as he or she would be against Gallade, because the risk associated to them is much lower than getting sweeped by Gallade.

 

[Josh]

The problem to me is that most pokemon in S don't actually match the description of the rank:

Reserved for Pokemon that can easily play a role against a majority of type matchups with ease, meaning it will never be useless in any matchup. These Pokemon need little to no support (which can be easily given) for them to do their job (Both Defensive and Offensive). They are easy to bring in and out, and often with little to no risk (Mostly Defensive). They can fulfill a ton of roles depending on what you need, and they surpass other Pokemon who have the same role. These Pokemon define the metagame.

A good example is Psychic. Mew, Slowbro, Meloetta, all of this are amazing pokemon, but they require support, they are not independent. Slowbro needs someone to take on special attackers, Meloetta needs one to take on physical ones, Mew is the one which requires the least support but he doesn't actually destroy any team (except Stall Breaker Mew at times), they provide the support to the team, but they are not S. They are amazing yes, but they cannot carry a win on their own.

I think most pokemon in S fall under this, they provide great support to their other, more powerful teammates, or they give the team an answer against one type / pokemon that would otherwise destroy the team, but they are not a pokemon to be feared. If my opponent sees that I carry MegaGallade then he or she will be careful, not giving me opportunities to set up / megavolve. If my opponent sees Slowbro or Mew, then knows that they have to be weakened / eliminated if X or Y pokemon want to sweep but will not be as careful as he or she would be against Gallade, because the risk associated to them is much lower than getting sweeped by Gallade.

If every S mon was supposed to carry a team on their own, then support mons would be marked as unviable which simply isn't true. Mew provides invaluable support to teams, to take your example. And hell no it doesn't need help on the physical side, a rocky helmet will-o-wisp set is fully viable. Mew is probably the most diverse mon in terms of what it can viably run... it can do pretty much anything and can help psychic with literally any match up depending on the set it's running.

Arguments based on those definitions are stupid. It's why AM removed them from the OU viability rankings, and it's why they should be removed in general from all vrs.

ps; I do sort of support meloetta dropping right now, but that's besides the point. Slowbro and Mew are 100% S rank in mono.
ps2;

If my opponent sees Slowbro or Mew, then knows that they have to be weakened / eliminated if X or Y pokemon want to sweep but will not be as careful as he or she would be against Gallade, because the risk associated to them is much lower than getting sweeped by Gallade.

This is just so wrong lol. First of all Mew could be running just about anything, so they don't know what they need to weaken and not let get weakened. If you fear facing Gallade in team preview, you obviously need to adjust your team so it can deal with it. I personally fear facing Slowbro more than anything else you listed in team preview, because I play mono fighting and it's a huge nightmare to face.

 

[Acast]

I honestly think the problem with S rank right now is that everyone seems to be under the impression that if a pokemon isn't S rank, it's an insult to that mon's viability. "A rank" pokemon are more than viable and are absolutely prominent in the metagame, so why are we putting every important pokemon in S rank when some are more important than others?

If I'm being perfectly honest, Psychic doesn't just need to drop 1 or 2 of its S rank mons. It needs to drop at about half of them. Having eight S ranked mons on one type is absurd and honestly a bit laughable. For types like Psychic and Flying in which you have access to a lot of great pokemon, the definition of each rank should be tweaked to account for it. Fire only has Mega Charizard Y in S, which makes sense because of the outstanding team support and wall breaking power it provides. If Psychic has 8 mons that are as good for the type as Charizard Y is for Fire, then we need to decide which of those 8 mons are most important and drop the others down a rank. I'll try not to write a lengthy description for each one, but here are the pokemon that I think should drop to A rank on Psychic:

• Mega Medicham - The opportunity cost is too high. Prevents you from using Mega Gallade or Mega Gardevoir.
• Meloetta - Immunity to Ghost is amazing for its type, but it can't take a strong physical hit. Hoopa-U also covers the Ghost weakness a bit, so Melo is less important.
• Mew
  
• Slowbro

I'm sure the last two will be more controversial than the first two. Don't get me wrong, Mew and Slowbro are amazing pokemon on Psychic teams and their usage stats in July show it. By suggesting they drop a rank, I am not saying they aren't extremely important for Psychic teams. I am simply saying that they are less useful than Mega Gallade/Gardevoir, Victini, or Hoopa-U.

Someone can make the argument that Mew is Psychic's best hazard setter, which is probably true. But either of the legal Deoxys forms can easily pull off that role as well. I've resorted to Deoxys-S on my Psychic team and, honestly, I prefer it over Mew. Slowbro I'm a little less certain of. If there's a lot of opposition to dropping Slowbro, then I guess I would withdraw this suggestion. It's not that I don't think Slowbro is crucial. It's just that it's less crucial than Mega Gallade/Gardevoir, Hoopa-U, or Victini.

TL;DR I agree Psychic's and Flying's S ranks are too crowded, so we should tweak the definition of the ranks for the super-viable types. I would suggest dropping Mega Medicham, Meloetta, Mew, and maybe Slowbro, but I am not saying these pokemon have gotten worse. They're simply less crucial than the other S ranked pokemon on Psychic.

 

[Dece1t]

I honestly think the problem with S rank right now is that everyone seems to be under the impression that if a pokemon isn't S rank, it's an insult to that mon's viability. "A rank" pokemon are more than viable and are absolutely prominent in the metagame, so why are we putting every important pokemon in S rank when some are more important than others?

If I'm being perfectly honest, Psychic doesn't just need to drop 1 or 2 of its S rank mons. It needs to drop at about half of them. Having eight S ranked mons on one type is absurd and honestly a bit laughable. For types like Psychic and Flying in which you have access to a lot of great pokemon, the definition of each rank should be tweaked to account for it. Fire only has Mega Charizard Y in S, which makes sense because of the outstanding team support and wall breaking power it provides. If Psychic has 8 mons that are as good for the type as Charizard Y is for Fire, then we need to decide which of those 8 mons are most important and drop the others down a rank. I'll try not to write a lengthy description for each one, but here are the pokemon that I think should drop to A rank on Psychic:

• Mega Medicham - The opportunity cost is too high. Prevents you from using Mega Gallade or Mega Gardevoir.
• Meloetta - Immunity to Ghost is amazing for its type, but it can't take a strong physical hit. Hoopa-U also covers the Ghost weakness a bit, so Melo is less important.
• Mew
  
• Slowbro

I'm sure the last two will be more controversial than the first two. Don't get me wrong, Mew and Slowbro are amazing pokemon on Psychic teams and their usage stats in July show it. By suggesting they drop a rank, I am not saying they aren't extremely important for Psychic teams. I am simply saying that they are less useful than Mega Gallade/Gardevoir, Victini, or Hoopa-U.

Someone can make the argument that Mew is Psychic's best hazard setter, which is probably true. But either of the legal Deoxys forms can easily pull off that role as well. I've resorted to Deoxys-S on my Psychic team and, honestly, I prefer it over Mew. Slowbro I'm a little less certain of. If there's a lot of opposition to dropping Slowbro, then I guess I would withdraw this suggestion. It's not that I don't think Slowbro is crucial. It's just that it's less crucial than Mega Gallade/Gardevoir, Hoopa-U, or Victini.

TL;DR I agree Psychic's and Flying's S ranks are too crowded, so we should tweak the definition of the ranks for the super-viable types. I would suggest dropping Mega Medicham, Meloetta, Mew, and Slowbro, but I am not saying these pokemon have gotten worse. They're simply less crucial than the other S ranked pokemon on Psychic.

For drops, I agree with everything except Mew. Slowbro you could argue it's still S rank, but mew is the most amaizng utility mon, I'd reconsider that one. Mainly because it can perform any role on a team, whether it be Baton Passer, or Hazard Control, ect, Mew does not deserve being dropped.

 

[DoW]

I honestly think the problem with S rank right now is that everyone seems to be under the impression that if a pokemon isn't S rank, it's an insult to that mon's viability. "A rank" pokemon are more than viable and are absolutely prominent in the metagame, so why are we putting every important pokemon in S rank when some are more important than others?

If I'm being perfectly honest, Psychic doesn't just need to drop 1 or 2 of its S rank mons. It needs to drop at about half of them. Having eight S ranked mons on one type is absurd and honestly a bit laughable. For types like Psychic and Flying in which you have access to a lot of great pokemon, the definition of each rank should be tweaked to account for it. Fire only has Mega Charizard Y in S, which makes sense because of the outstanding team support and wall breaking power it provides. If Psychic has 8 mons that are as good for the type as Charizard Y is for Fire, then we need to decide which of those 8 mons are most important and drop the others down a rank. I'll try not to write a lengthy description for each one, but here are the pokemon that I think should drop to A rank on Psychic:

• Mega Medicham - The opportunity cost is too high. Prevents you from using Mega Gallade or Mega Gardevoir.
• Meloetta - Immunity to Ghost is amazing for its type, but it can't take a strong physical hit. Hoopa-U also covers the Ghost weakness a bit, so Melo is less important.
• Mew
  
• Slowbro

I'm sure the last two will be more controversial than the first two. Don't get me wrong, Mew and Slowbro are amazing pokemon on Psychic teams and their usage stats in July show it. By suggesting they drop a rank, I am not saying they aren't extremely important for Psychic teams. I am simply saying that they are less useful than Mega Gallade/Gardevoir, Victini, or Hoopa-U.

Someone can make the argument that Mew is Psychic's best hazard setter, which is probably true. But either of the legal Deoxys forms can easily pull off that role as well. I've resorted to Deoxys-S on my Psychic team and, honestly, I prefer it over Mew. Slowbro I'm a little less certain of. If there's a lot of opposition to dropping Slowbro, then I guess I would withdraw this suggestion. It's not that I don't think Slowbro is crucial. It's just that it's less crucial than Mega Gallade/Gardevoir, Hoopa-U, or Victini.

TL;DR I agree Psychic's and Flying's S ranks are too crowded, so we should tweak the definition of the ranks for the super-viable types. I would suggest dropping Mega Medicham, Meloetta, Mew, and maybe Slowbro, but I am not saying these pokemon have gotten worse. They're simply less crucial than the other S ranked pokemon on Psychic.

I agree entirely with your philosophy, despite the fact that I'd argue Mew and Slowbro are more useful to a psychic team than Victini and maybe Hoopa-U. I certainly support Mega Medi, Melo, and some others (probably to be determined after some debate) to be dropped to A, I honestly wouldn't be too sad to see one or two fall to B.

 

[Acast]

I'm open to discussion on Mew and Slowbro. I'm certain that Medicham and Meloetta should drop, but even I'm not entirely sure about the other two. I can understand an argument for Victini dropping instead of Mew or Slowbro, but it's probably Psychic's best way of dealing with Bug so I don't know if I'd agree with that. I also don't know enough about Hoopa-U to have an opinion on it. If it's not as good on Psychic as I thought it would be, then I could see it dropping as well. If we want to be really radical, I don't see anything wrong with dropping all S rank Psychic pokemon down to A except for Mega Gardevoir, Mega Gallade, and Victini.

 

[scpinion]

Psychic is known for how well it can play balance/bulky builds. Garde, Gallade, Victini, Hoopa are the main offensive threats. Mew, Slowbro, Melo are the defensive ones. I disagree with dropping the defensive ones in favor of the offensive. S-rank should represent a mix of both.

Mew, m-Gallade, Slowbro, and possibly Victini are the ones that deserve S rank imo. Those first three define the type.

Garde, Melo and Hoopa fill specific niches (Dark team check, Ghost team check, Wall breaker) that are nice to have on Psy, but don't define the type.

Just my opinion though, this type of discussion is great to see!

 

[Vid]

Crawdaunt (Water) C--->B

Why C--->B
Overall this another Pokemon that was underranked because of when it was ranked when Greninja was still on water. Overall this Pokemon decimates Psychic and with Genesect Ban lowering Bug's usage down it just became a lot more viable on water. The 3 sets you can run are mentioned in other person's post. But in a meta where Psychic teams are very common this Pokemon has a niche. Overall Swords Dance Life Orb is the best set because Crawdaunt forces switches. This Pokemon basically takes on bulky teams with ease by breaking them with its powerful stab Adaptability Crabhammers and Knock Offs. The Choice Band set is a decent set not as good as Swords Dance but it allows you to 2 hit ko/ohko certain Pokemon without an Swords Dance and is very powerful. Last set that was mentioned is DD. To put in simple terms Dragon Dance is terrible because Mega Gyra outclasses it in bulk speed and they have similar attacking stats. I feel this Pokemon has gained viability because of rising Psychic Teams because of Genesect getting Ban and Mega Gallade being readded and the introduction of Hoopa-U in the metagame. Also this Pokemon does a number to flying teams with Skarmory being koed after Stealth Rocks by knock off plus Crabhammer. After 1 SD this Pokemon does a number to Flying able to bring Zapdos down really low with plus 2 aqua jet. Overall i felt this Pokemon needed to be locked at again because of the recent metagame changes making it a very good option to use on water as one of the best stallbreakers. So Crawdaunt C--->B (Water)

 

[SirSkit]

IMO, the rankings are a little off because, for the most part, the rankings were based on either how necessary that each of them were to their respective type or how they actually affected the meta, which would produce different rankings. Stuff like Torkoal (A), Electric Eelektross (A), and Avalugg (S), Rock Cradily (A) don't have a huge impact on the meta, but they're simply just considered really important on their respective types.

Just looking at Psychic, Mega Medicham definitely should move down to at least A rank. Lots of types don't have a switch-in for it, and it even breaks Flying monotypes pretty well, but it just has tons of competition for the mega slot on Psychic. Mega Gardevoir's Fairy STAB is a lot more useful than Mega Medicham's Fighting STAB IMO, and Mega Gallade has proven to be really dangerous with Psychic's support and a higher Speed stat. Mega Medicham also just has poor overall bulk, so it definitely won't want to switch into Dark-types as much as Gardevoir or Gallade, and it is a lot more afraid of faster Pokemon. It'll need help switching in, so it does also need more support in that area too.
Meloetta also should move down to A rank, mostly for what's already been said. It's main niche of countering Ghost monotypes is now shared with Hoopa-U, and Hoopa-U does it arguably better since it can break through Mega Sableye and Aegislash with more ease. It still has the Ghost immunity over Hoopa-U though, so handles Shadow Sneak from the Doublade and Aegislash even if they've SD'd up.
The rest of the S-rank Psychic mons are pretty equally viable IMO, so I wouldn't mind keeping them up there if having 6 S-rank mons is fine :x

I think that the other S ranks that I'd like to see drop were already mentioned, so I'll just mention a few A ranks that should move.
Mega Audino (Normal) A rank -> B rank I've really only seen this used well on stall Normal, and it definitely can't be put on just any Normal monotype team. Although its main niche is serving as an answer to Fighting-types, Mega Lopunny and Mega Pidgeot can do so just as well, although they admittedly can't switch in well.
Lucario (Fighting) A rank -> B rank It has a nice typing, but its Speed stat just lets it down, allowing other Pokemon to revenge kill it pretty easily. I don't have much to say about it really, since I haven't actually used it, but it just isn't on par with the other A ranks.
Scizor (Steel) A rank -> B rank This really shouldn't be in A rank when you could easily just use Mega Scizor instead, which has higher bulk and doesn't have much competition for the Mega slot. It still has the Choice Band set keeping it viable, and, although Steelix and Aggron are considered poor Megas, it does keep the slot open if need be.

Just a few that I felt really needed to drop, so yeah .3.