np: NU Stage 1 - Welcome to Heartbreak

[shnen]

I've fought a few, a couple of the top 20 players have one, the most common variants I see are LO with TR, not Eviolite. Even with Eviolite and
Recover the thing is not that bulky but with Max HP you should be able to find an opportunity to get TR up and cause some big damage, it has a massive SpA.

Really? The only version I've been seeing is eviolite Cm, and that is the best et easily, he is far to frail with LO, while the Cm variant is a fantastic sweeping tank, if you really want an otr mon then I eould rather use beheeyem, with better bulk, access to thunderbolt, and of course nasty plot, while still sharing e same special attack. While he may not have magic cguard, his greater bulk really helps him. Duosion needs the bulk, as NU is very offensive atm, and nearly everything can so significant damage to Lo duosion. I have not used it myself, but this is what I would assume.

 

[Sabinfrost]

Really? The only version I've been seeing is eviolite Cm, and that is the best et easily, he is far to frail with LO, while the Cm variant is a fantastic sweeping tank, if you really want an otr mon then I eould rather use beheeyem, with better bulk, access to thunderbolt, and of course nasty plot, while still sharing e same special attack. While he may not have magic cguard, his greater bulk really helps him. Duosion needs the bulk, as NU is very offensive atm, and nearly everything can so significant damage to Lo duosion. I have not used it myself, but this is what I would assume.

Spicy and Dangerous36M had the LO one I believe, it does hit pretty hard and it outspeeds everything once it gets a trick room up, it's easy enough to get it up as well and it doesn't take LO damage with Magic Guard or entry hazard damage. With max HP it shouldn't get OHKOd if you're careful and with 125 base SpA and LO you can kill most things without a boost.

 

[Ewil]

hows duosion in NU? with eviolite for bulk, recover, trick room, Calm mind, and MAGIC GUARD. i see no reason not to use it

I've tried classic CM+recover Duosion in a stall team, once the strong dark & bug types are removed is nearly impossible to stop after 2-3 CMs (oh well, i attract crit -.-).

 

[Furosuto]

I'm surprised that nobodies made a mention of Gigalith yet.

While Gigalith looks like your Golem remake, I personally think it makes an intimidating presence on the battlefield, offensively and defensively. With a base 135 attack stat and 130 defense. Even though it's special defense isn't the best, I've seen it take HP grasses to the face and still be able to walk on 4 feet. Add on that it's one of the only 5th gen pokemon to learn SR, and that it has access to edgequake, plus rockblast, and you have yourself a very strong pokemon.

The only probs that this mon has trouble with is Gorebyss and grass types. Luckily, it has sturdy to help it out, and if you put a spinner with it to spin away any hazards, it has a very good chance of killing of the opposing threat.

 

[Avira]

You mean Carracosta's secondary STAB? Huntail is straight water like Gorebyss.

Yes, I did mean Carracosta's secondary STAB.

I agree though Carracosta > Huntail.

That's not what you said earlier.

Carracosta is slow as all hell compared to the other two... it gets outsped by pretty much all scarfers after a shell smash... Hell it gets outsped by Pokemon that are not scarfed after a shell smash. It also has exploitable weaknesses, compared to the other two. Might as well discuss shell smash Torkoal if you are going to bring up Carracosta.

 

[Sabinfrost]

That's not what you said earlier.

Correct, I didn't say that, but I didn't change my mind either. It's hard to tell with text sometimes but I believe you were implying that I contradicted myself as you seem to like taking a dig at me. Carracosta is slow as hell compared to Huntail and Gorebyss, 20ish speed is a fair bit factoring in boosts which lets some of the slower scarfers outspeed it after a smash. Carracosta's weaknesses are easy to exploit as well, Water/Rock just isn't a brilliant typing.

I don't particularly like Shell Smash Carracosta, not anymore than I particularly like Shell Smash Torkoal (I stated support > sweeper), but it does work to a degree, like Torkoal, more so than Huntail who lost his niche when Slowking moved with baton passing Smash banned. If Gorebyss left NU I feel Huntail could be more relevant, but currently Carracosta > Huntail.

 

[Avira]

sabin, you basically pushed aside Carracosta and considered it irrelevant. You even brought up another Shell Smasher (Torkoal). You can spin it all you like, but you were clearly suggesting that Carracosta was the worst Shell Smasher.


To be more on topic, I am currently enjoying using Garbodor in the NU metagame. It has some decent resists and bulk to set up Spikes and Toxic Spikes, as well have as having Clear Smog to get rid of slow Pokemon with boosting moves. If you have Toxic Spikes up, you can also force faster boosters to attack you instead of boosting since their longevity is reduced.

 

[Sabinfrost]

sabin, you basically pushed aside Carracosta and considered it irrelevant. You even brought up another Shell Smasher (Torkoal). You can spin it all you like, but you were clearly suggesting that Carracosta was the worst Shell Smasher.

No, Macargo is the worst Shell Smasher, Carracosta is poor, and personally, I find him fairly irrelevant, somewhat useful but on par with Torkoal. He's different to Gorebyss, but certainly not better, that doesn't mean he isn't better than Huntail.

 

[waterwarrior]

No, Macargo is the worst Shell Smasher, Carracosta is poor, and personally, I find him fairly irrelevant, somewhat useful but on par with Torkoal. He's different to Gorebyss, but certainly not better, that doesn't mean he isn't better than Huntail.

So Carracosta is better? Going by that logic:

Gorebyss > Carracosta = Torkoal > Huntail > Magcargo

No. Just no.

How is he irrelevant? Irrelevant is Shell Smash Cloyster, or SmashPass. If it's in the tier and sees usage from things other than trolls, its relevant.

 

[Sabinfrost]

So Carracosta is better? Going by that logic:

Gorebyss > Carracosta = Torkoal > Huntail > Magcargo

No. Just no.

How is he irrelevant? Irrelevant is Shell Smash Cloyster, or SmashPass. If it's in the tier and sees usage from things other than trolls, its relevant.

If you read the other posts I believe Huntail would be far more relevant if you couldn't just run Gorebyss instead, I think Carracosta is better than Huntail currently as at least he has more useful options (like the second stab which doesn't provide remarkable coverage mind you).

Torkoal is comparable, while he isn't a brilliant smasher, people expect him to do something like spin or set up rocks, so he can potentially deal some damage. It doesn't make him brilliant, he's largely irrelevant as a smasher, but I wouldn't completely discount him. I don't completely discount Carracosta. Certainly not more than I discount Huntail in a meta with Gorebyss.

Carracosta is largely irrelevant to me, not completely irrelevant, I just personally don't really feel any desire to run him or over-prepare for him.
Completely irrelevant would be something like Shell Smash Shellder which I believe you meant and I agree. Carracosta just doesn't do anything for me. A large part of that is probably because he poses no serious threat to the teams I've been running, if I had a different team it may be a different story, but on paper, he's just not outstanding.

 

[Drifloon]

If you read the other posts I believe Huntail would be far more relevant if you couldn't just run Gorebyss instead, I think Carracosta is better than Huntail currently as at least he has more useful options (like the second stab which doesn't provide remarkable coverage mind you).

Torkoal is comparable, while he isn't a brilliant smasher, people expect him to do something like spin or set up rocks, so he can potentially deal some damage. It doesn't make him brilliant, he's largely irrelevant as a smasher, but I wouldn't completely discount him. I don't completely discount Carracosta. Certainly not more than I discount Huntail in a meta with Gorebyss.

Carracosta is largely irrelevant to me, not completely irrelevant, I just personally don't really feel any desire to run him or over-prepare for him.
Completely irrelevant would be something like Shell Smash Shellder which I believe you meant and I agree. Carracosta just doesn't do anything for me. A large part of that is probably because he poses no serious threat to the teams I've been running, if I had a different team it may be a different story, but on paper, he's just not outstanding.

Last time I checked Huntail was a better smasher than Torkoal.

 

[tennisace]

The real order is: Gorebyss >>>> Carracosta > Huntail > Clamperl > Torkoal > other shitty nfe mons. Clamperl is just as fast as Carracosta but has DeepSeaTooth to smash some faces in. Its still slower than scarfers though and doesn't take priority well. Torkoal doesn't have that great coverage, because it only really has special Fire moves to take advantage of, and Alomamola laughs at it. At least Carracosta can go mixed if it needs to.

I've been dicking around lately with Porygon but I don't think the metagame is really conducive to slower mons at the moment, since you give dangerous things one turn to get in and then you have to scramble to get momentum back. My old team style of a bulkier spike-setting offense has basically disappeared, its just impossible to keep consistant momentum in this metagame with a slower team unless you run a full-stall type team (which gets wrecked by high powered offensive mons eventually since you need either Garbodor or Cacturne for Spikes).

 

[Lady Shinki]

why are we arguing about which smasher is the worst?

Let's just hype up Clamperl+Gorebyss. Clamperl, though in the exact same speed tier as Carracosta and considerably less bulky, can muscle through Gorebyss's checks with DeepSeaTooth and a +2 boost, letting it hit niche threats a lot stronger. It 2hko's Specially Defensive Quagsire with Surf because DeepSeaTooth naturally doubles its spatk, meaning Unaware doesn't ignore it (and that frees up a Hidden Power to deal with stuff like Jynx). On top of that, Clamperl has Rattled released as an ability, meaning that it could legitimately sweep if switched into a weak appropriate move (think something like Mesprit's U-turn, or any non-boosted move while behind screens).

 

[Ice-eyes]

To be honest I think Gorebyss is hard enough to set up already without giving yourself a second Shell Smasher that's even more difficult to find time to boost with.

 

[Cherub Agent]

yeah, most people will never, ever switch out when gorebyss comes in, ensuring that they attack it. as long as the move isn't resisted, it will normally do enough to the smashers so that a priority user can finish them off. I can't imagine dual smash being too effective with this strategy. keep in mind clamperl is both slow and frail. That's what i do, just keep offensive pressure on the opponent and not give them free turns. seems to work tbh

 

[Endorfins]

To be honest I think Gorebyss is hard enough to set up already without giving yourself a second Shell Smasher that's even more difficult to find time to boost with.

Thats where Dual Screens comes in handy, behind screens, Gorebyss and even Clamperl can safely set up a smash with HP to spare. Although your opponent might see it coming and switch to a Pokemon with powerful electric or grass type attacks, its pretty easy to force them out and double switch into your SS sweeper.

 

[marilli]

OK, one of the things is that things that make setting up Gorebyss too hard is that things like Regirock and Probopass are too scared to switch out when they really should, and they stick around to T-wave because the rest of the team is getting swept otherwise. The thing is this: very few teams carry a legitimate special tank / Surf absorber before even carrying a Gorebyss check. (most teams check it through offensive pressure or Scarf Rotom-S) How do you abuse this? You carry U-turning Normal types to lure out Regirock & co., and just play the game of 'Im just gonna stay in and surf' because whatever's switching in takes massive damage anyways. If they are too scared to switch out, well, oh ho ho, a Swellow sweep!

Yeah, this is a metagame where you lose without a Swellow counter, but all of those allow Gorebyss to set up. Something is broken, and I'll give you a hint, it's not Swellow.

Oh, and talking about things too scared and staying in to status Gorebyss, SubSmash Gorebyss works like a charm. Life Orb takes too much HP off, though, so I say maybe White Herb or even Leftovers. It's great for setting up vs. Alomomola, Regirock, etc. and foiling Absol Sucker Punch from revenging you. Yeah, you lose coverage, but it's worth it.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

I saw more Duosions when Hail was around. Since Hail has been gone, I really haven't seen too many Duosions around. I've been debating on making a TR team with Duosion though, and I'm really interested in seeing how it goes.

Trick Room teams would be great down here, probably about as anti-metagame as it gets honestly, and Duosion is definitely one of the most powerful abusers of it. He doesn't have the same staying power as his older brother, but he's one of the slowest and strongest Psychic types down here, and can at least put a hole in most of the tier.

I'm surprised that nobodies made a mention of Gigalith yet.

While Gigalith looks like your Golem remake, I personally think it makes an intimidating presence on the battlefield, offensively and defensively. With a base 135 attack stat and 130 defense. Even though it's special defense isn't the best, I've seen it take HP grasses to the face and still be able to walk on 4 feet. Add on that it's one of the only 5th gen pokemon to learn SR, and that it has access to edgequake, plus rockblast, and you have yourself a very strong pokemon.

The only probs that this mon has trouble with is Gorebyss and grass types. Luckily, it has sturdy to help it out, and if you put a spinner with it to spin away any hazards, it has a very good chance of killing of the opposing threat.

Gig's best use is on a Trick Room team, where his virtually nonexistent speed and huge attack allow him to really shine. EdgeQuake can be dangerous behind base 135 Atk, especially if it's hitting you twice before you even have a chance to kill it. I also think Gigalith is much better than Rampardos in TR; no, he doesn't have as much Atk initially, but his great bulk and access to Curse allow him to raise all of his Atk, Def, and Spe all in one turn of TR (you'd only get three turns of attacking if you did this, but it's still something to consider).

I think if you're using him outside of TR you're better of with Regirock or Golem though; Gigalith just doesn't have anything to make him better than either of those 'mons otherwise.

 

[Molk]

i cannot stress how good absol is in this metagame, it hits like a truck, has STAB priority and perfect coverage in two moves, not to mention it gets pursuit.

 

[jake]

i cannot stress how good absol is in this metagame, it hits like a truck, has STAB priority and perfect coverage in two moves, not to mention it gets pursuit.

uhhh yeah after watching that teambat... :x

what beats absol, anyway? if it gets an sd you're basically screwed :/

 

[marilli]

The one thing I absolutely hate about using Absol is that you turn every game into a coin-flip prediction game. (Heh, see what I did there x3) Yeah, its great that you have a good shot at winning for every game, but you really never get that consistency because you get into prediction mind games every match, and you lose to random stuff with substitute or faster priority. It's a fun mon to use, though, but not one that I would rely on to sweep the opponent every match.

 

[Molk]

imo absol MIIIIGHt be a little to much for this metagame

Thoughts?

 

[gamer40000]

what beats absol, anyway? if it gets an sd you're basically screwed :/

LO +2 Superpower vs Max/Max+ Shelgon: 53% - 63%

LO +1 Superpower vs Max/Max+ Shelgon: 40% - 47%

LO +2 Night Slash vs Max/Max+ Shelgon: 47% - 55%

LO +2 Psycho Cut vs Max/Max+ Shelgon: 31% - 37%

If Shelgon has to switch in, it will lose eventually. But, if it comes on a revenge kill, then it can spam Wish + Protect and hope to stall Absol out with LO recoil.

 

[Avira]

I think Tangela can also beat Absol, but Tangela is subpar. All it has is physical bulk, and the only thing it does back is be a slight annoyance.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Yeah, only the bulkiest physical walls - things like Tangela and Alomomola - can really take the hits that Absol can dish out, and those are easily set up on by other things. The problem is the ease with which it gets revenge-killed by faster things with Substitute and the difficulty it has switching into anything.