That wall of calcs hurt my eyes 
Ice types are good and always will be in NU
Ice types are good and always will be in NU
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Metagame np: Stage 8 - Dream at Tempo 119 (READ POST #119)
- Thread starter ryan
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Tbf tho they really have become a lot better because our bulky ass uxie left and skunk/shiftry pressured certain mons. The type of cores people use plays a huge factor into how good they are. The recent tier shift brought along the commoness of certain core that especially hate ice types.Ice types have always been hard to switch into in this meta as well as previous metas as most teams tend to run special walls that get pushed in by Ice-type attacks. Freeze Dry is also very prominent in NU which makes the list of things that can actually take a neutral attack even smaller. On top of this the majority of Ice-types that are threatening have a second dual stab that Pokemon such as Hariyama don't enjoy switching into. There coverage and lack of good defensive Steel-types is the main reason why Ice-types with Freeze Dry are so good. Also just use Grumpig if you're having trouble
Ice types are good and have always been good, the reason you dont see them to often / nobody tends to prep for them is that from a defensive stand point they tend to be really hard to build around due to the fact that Ice typing is pretty bad defensively.
I've been on the ice spam love train since Blaziken posted his all AV ice team in dark horse. Uxie leaving definitely helped, one less bulky SR setter is great.
Ice is so damn wonderful when you can make it work- I just find it difficult to make teams with multiple ones. Its why I posted a request in the lab.
Ice is so damn wonderful when you can make it work- I just find it difficult to make teams with multiple ones. Its why I posted a request in the lab.
I totally agree with Aurorus being very scary in this meta, I enjoy Ice-type wallbreakers on offense a lot because it allows me to break apart common defensive cores like Lanturn-grass type very easily and Aurorus is probably the best of the bunch. QueenOfLuvdiscs' Pyroar/Aurorus core is a good example of how to make it an outstanding threat for balance, and even its poor speed can be mitigated somewhat with Scarf or RP to make it basically 6-0 a lot of offensive teams.
I'm really curious- other than AV Hariyama and AV Magmortar (both of which can get pushed in by Psyshock Jynx sadly), what can really stand up to Freeze-Dry in this metagame? I've found it very difficult to find a proper answer in this metagame. For offense it's less troublesome because Freeze-Dry users are quite slow, but with balance it's horrifying to face, and it's quite a roadblock when teambuilding.
Piloswine was also mentioned as an Ice type check, but like the other two, it's susceptible to being worn down over the course of the match, so it sadly can't check multiple threats throughout the course of the match, like fellow Eviolite Ground-type Rhydon can. Other than that, I agree Piloswine is definitely a bit of a sleeper mon in this metagame due to its amazing dual STAB, and especially the fact that Ice Shard can hit mons like Shiftry and Archeops for huge damage, which can save games.
I'm really curious- other than AV Hariyama and AV Magmortar (both of which can get pushed in by Psyshock Jynx sadly), what can really stand up to Freeze-Dry in this metagame? I've found it very difficult to find a proper answer in this metagame. For offense it's less troublesome because Freeze-Dry users are quite slow, but with balance it's horrifying to face, and it's quite a roadblock when teambuilding.
Piloswine was also mentioned as an Ice type check, but like the other two, it's susceptible to being worn down over the course of the match, so it sadly can't check multiple threats throughout the course of the match, like fellow Eviolite Ground-type Rhydon can. Other than that, I agree Piloswine is definitely a bit of a sleeper mon in this metagame due to its amazing dual STAB, and especially the fact that Ice Shard can hit mons like Shiftry and Archeops for huge damage, which can save games.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Metang: 148-176 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Metang: 148-176 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO
So you either:
- Pray for the double near absolute min rolls (with rocks up and full HP) or for 2 low rolls (no rocks and at full HP), Rest and pull your steel STAB and OHKO
- Die to 2 as you can't actually switch in without praying
- Sack something to then threaten it out
- Always predict the shit outta the Aurorus
Use Bronzor as it actually beats it :]
As others have pointed out Ice-types have been and for the most part, always will be strong Pokemon in NU. That being said I only ever expect Jynx, Aurorus, and Piloswine to have legitimate success in any aspect and I'm still a little iffy on Auro as building with it often causes you to compound weaknesses which can really hurt defensive synergy in general. Jynx's biggest flaw is that its so hard to use on any balance team and really only fits on hyper offense in most situations, paritally because it doesnt bring anything to the table defensively and its speed tier is just shy of making up for this. Piloswine is very underrated imo and is a consistent Stealth Rock setter that should be getting more usage than it does, it also helps that its dual STAB combo is incredibly potent.
Tbh the Ice type I think everyone is forgetting about is Cryogonal. Laugh at me all you want, but I think this thing is good (So long as you don't keep it in on physical attackers).
Sure 30 base Defense is absolutely horrible, HOWEVER, 135 base Sp. Def makes up for it imo (Cryo also has multiple ways of making up for its bad defense it it has room for it, such as Reflect and Acid Armor). That stat gives it an advantage over fellow ice type Jynx, along with better typing, a more reliable form of recovery, and a better speed tier (not including Scarf Jynx). It can also serve as a good special wall with toxic and recover, and not get smashed by t-spikes thanks to levitate, something no other ice type in the tier cannot claim. As for attacking, yes it has a bad movepool. But its special attack is only four less than aurorus, which is isn't bad at all. Not to mention it can run Rapid Spin if you really need it, though Claydol is better for this. My point is, do not write this thing off as inferior to other ice types, as it can be just as effective as the other ice types in NU.
Sure 30 base Defense is absolutely horrible, HOWEVER, 135 base Sp. Def makes up for it imo (Cryo also has multiple ways of making up for its bad defense it it has room for it, such as Reflect and Acid Armor). That stat gives it an advantage over fellow ice type Jynx, along with better typing, a more reliable form of recovery, and a better speed tier (not including Scarf Jynx). It can also serve as a good special wall with toxic and recover, and not get smashed by t-spikes thanks to levitate, something no other ice type in the tier cannot claim. As for attacking, yes it has a bad movepool. But its special attack is only four less than aurorus, which is isn't bad at all. Not to mention it can run Rapid Spin if you really need it, though Claydol is better for this. My point is, do not write this thing off as inferior to other ice types, as it can be just as effective as the other ice types in NU.
tbh sdef cryogonal isnt that good what makes cryogonal amazing is its high speed tier that gets past a majority of NU mons wiht its powerful ice beam / freeze dry coverage. The sdef variant while bulky is completely susceptible to any variant of pursuit trapping and can't even take hits that well because of its low hp stat and shit defensive typing. Hell, Ludicolo, a pokemon which Cryogonal in theory should easily check can 2HKO cryo under rain. nah unless you are running icicle plate offensive there is very little reason to use Cryo over other defensive spinners. Nobody is saying it's bad, but its defensive set is in its entirety completely outclassed
My main issue with Cryogonal is how much it has to sacrifice to accomplish certain things. A defensive set with Reflect or Acid Armor helps patch up its Defense a bit, but then it becomes ridiculously weak and can't even 2HKO most frailer offensive Pokemon, which takes away the only good thing about its typing. An offensive set makes it less passive, but then you struggle heavily against Pursuit and the massive amount of priority in the tier, and still isn't ~that~ strong. I see you also compared its Special Attack to Aurorus, but Aurorus isn't really comparable because it runs Modest and has Refrigerate / the extra BP of Blizzard, so when that's taken out Cryo's power becomes pretty average (which is why I also think Rapid Spin is necessary to run on it, even if it isn't that good at spinning, since it's pretty outclassed otherwise).
As for Ice-types I've really liked Vanilluxe for a while now. Its niche is actually pretty strong because it has a major power difference over a lot of Ice-types (especially most of the ones that get Freeze Dry, other than Aurorus which is much slower), as well as having Ice Shard which gives it utility against offense for picking off random stuff. I don't really think much has changed for Ice-types though, they've always been strong but just struggle with finding spots on teams a lot of the time. A couple of them are pretty underrated but for the most part I think it's just a case of being very teambuilding-specific.
after taking a bit of time off, i've been laddering / playing the meta again, mainly using fun teams, but also preparing for NU open and i've come across some mons and strats that I like / think are anti-meta right now as well as finding others that I don't like / think are overrated and I thought I should share my thoughts.
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: A lot of common balance builds right now are using Rhydon and Lanturn as their main / only flying resists, which makes stuff like Jumpluff and Vivillon (which can both create their own set-up opportunities through the use of sleep powder) really good, since they can hit both mons really hard with their grass coverage moves. Jumpluff also sits in a great speed tier, and Vivillon can boost its speed with Quiver Dance.
: Combusken is fucking ridiculous right now. The number of teams that actually have a solid answer for this thing is practically slim-to-none, and if you combine that with the fact that it can support its teammates by Baton Passing speed to them makes it one of the most dangerous mons on offensive teams atm.
: Go take a look at the last couple balanced / bulky offense teams you've created. Now count how many switch-ins you have to Jynx. Odds are there aren't too many. Now when I talk about jynx, i'm talking about both the Sash set, and the LO + 3 Attacks set, since both are incredibly potent and deadly. Lovely Kiss allows it to cripple potential checks, as well as bypass non-lum variants of Skuntank, not that skuntank can switch in anyways since pretty much all variants are 2HKO'd by Ice Beam. I expect balance to dominate NU Open and therefore, I expect Jynx to dominate the later rounds as well.
: I have to give credit where credit is due, so thanks to QueenOfLuvdiscs for getting me hooked on Gourgeist-Large. Yes that's right it's Gourgeist-Large, not XL, and the reason behind this is simply due to the extra speed. Large-Geist does not lose very much bulk compared to its XL form, however the extra speed that goes along with it allows it to outspeed key physical threats like Adamant Mawile and Jolly Rhydon, get a burn on them, and beat them 1-on-1.
nevermind use smallgeist instead HAHA IM STOOPID
Also i've found Skuntank + Sawk to be incredibly underwhelming so far in playing with and against it. I think this is because a lot of the best Sawk checks pre-skunk were mons like bulky Scyther, Garbodor and Weezing which can't be trapped effectively by Skunk anyways. Even the bulky Psychic and Ghost types that are supposed to be trapped by Skunk like Gourgeist-XL and Musharna, are fat enough that with a colbur berry, they can still be a stop to Sawk after being pursuited as well as potentially threaten skunk with status (wisp from geist, t-wave / yawn from pivot mush).
so thats pretty much it, good luck to everyone in open and i'll see you guys on the other side of it.
nevermind use smallgeist instead HAHA IM STOOPID
Also i've found Skuntank + Sawk to be incredibly underwhelming so far in playing with and against it. I think this is because a lot of the best Sawk checks pre-skunk were mons like bulky Scyther, Garbodor and Weezing which can't be trapped effectively by Skunk anyways. Even the bulky Psychic and Ghost types that are supposed to be trapped by Skunk like Gourgeist-XL and Musharna, are fat enough that with a colbur berry, they can still be a stop to Sawk after being pursuited as well as potentially threaten skunk with status (wisp from geist, t-wave / yawn from pivot mush).
so thats pretty much it, good luck to everyone in open and i'll see you guys on the other side of it.
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I find this funny, because Primeape + Skuntank has been fairly successful in my experiences, though this is mostly attributed to my other U-turn recipients such as Mesprit and Aurorus, which pick off pretty much everything else that walls Ape and isn't bothered by Skunk. Like Sawk is still pretty great, but I find Primeape to actually be a bit more flexible in this meta since people are prepping harder than ever for Sawk, be it by packing like two counters or just running mons faster than it, while Ape can dance around those counters easier (the only true Sawk counter in Granbull gets flat out 2HKOed by Defiant CB Ape's Close Combat :PPP) and has a better Speed tier to boot.
With that said, I don't think you're giving the Fighting mon + Skunk combination nearly enough credit. Even if Skunk doesn't manage to actually KO the Ghost- or Psychic-type Sawk counter, the next best thing it can do is keep them weakened enough for Sawk to 2HKO on the switch, and Skunk doesn't fare half bad at this due to Taunt forcing them out and Pursuit putting some damage on them as they flee. Between Sawk's Knock Off and Skunk's Pursuit, the Ghost / Psychic mon is usually left with sufficient damage on them and lack their Colbur Berry, which can be enough for Sawk to break through. Hell, a slower Fighting-type + special Skunk can be noteworthy as well, since Skunk can lure and nail certain Fighting checks.
Considering you have to run over 100 Speed EVs to keep up with both those threats, that's a pretty hefty decrease in bulk compared to Gourgeist-XL (although an easily affordable 24 EVs can outrun Adamant Rhydon). Gourgeist-L also makes u slightly weaker against Fighting-types and Tauros, so at that point u'd probably want to consider maybe Colbur Gourgeist-S to handle Mawile and Rhydon while still dealing with Fighting-types well.: I have to give credit where credit is due, so thanks to QueenOfLuvdiscs for getting me hooked on Gourgeist-Large. Yes that's right it's Gourgeist-Large, not XL, and the reason behind this is simply due to the extra speed. Large-Geist does not lose very much bulk compared to its XL form, however the extra speed that goes along with it allows it to outspeed key physical threats like Adamant Mawile and Jolly Rhydon, get a burn on them, and beat them 1-on-1.
ah ok, sorry bout that QueenOfLuvdiscs looks like innovation doesnt always come through
stop tagging me you fuck
sadly that isn't up to anyone, as pokemon are kept into tiers depending on their usage on the ladder. http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...pdate-august-2015.3545972/page-7#post-6436296 those are the stats from last month, so if the pokemon in question drop under 3.14% usage in RU we could potentially get them in the coming months
There has been certain trends in NU lately, and recently I came to the realization that there are two Pokémon that has had a very similar set of roles in the NU metagame. Those two being:
and
Don't get me wrong, they have several things different about them. However, when you look closer at how they actually perform(ed) in the metagame, they share a striking number of similarities. First of all, they both have good offensive presence on a team, even when uninvested, combined with very solid bulk on both sides. Comparatively, the offensive power between the two is almost identical and only slight differences in physical and special bulk. As Rhydon gets a lot of its bulk from Eviolite, it's has some more worries when switching in on Pokemon that have it, something that Mega Steelix never had to worry about. It is a fairly significant downside, but realistically a lot of the Pokemon that use Knock Off, Rhydon aren't switching in on anyway, except Archeops and some others. Mega Steelix, when it was around, had multiple different sets, both defensive and offensive on any type of team, be it stall, balanced teams, or offense. Similarly to that, Rhydon's two most common sets, Double Dance and Tank, can fit on pretty much every type of team and do well. While Rhydon's typing leaves it with two 4x weaknesses compared to Mega Steelix, it also has some upsides, such as resisting Fire instead of being weak to it.
They both contribute a huge amount of team support for any team that they are on though, since even offensive sets are relatively bulky, and defensive sets still has a fair bit of bulk behind them. They can both deal with large portions of the metagame for their teammates very well. Mega Steelix was partially praised for its "splashability", its ability to fit on just about every team and do well, and it's something that Rhydon shares. An Electric immunity and several other useful resists (Normal, Flying, Fire) are all things that most teams want, and with Rhydon's already great bulk many teams have a place for Rhydon.
Rhydon's ability to run two completely different sets, with mostly different counters is also something that sets it apart from what Mega Steelix did. Being able to run a fast set that can outspeed most of its common switch ins is a huge advantage. And while Steelix never had Speed boosting among its possible sets like Rhydon have, it still forced a massive amount of switches that it could take advantage of to fire off strong attacks, much like Rhydon. Just by its mere presence, Normal and Flying types without a way around Rhydon become liabilities, as Rhydon's bulk easily allows it to switch in on mostly anything it resists, especially physical attacks.
The last thing I want to touch on is a bit more subjective, but still holds true for them both. Mega Steelix was one of the easiest, most simple Pokemon to use during its stay in NU and right now Rhydon is, quite frankly, probably the easiest, most straightforward Pokemon to use in the metagame. Regardless of match up or team structure, it will always contribute with something in a game, since teams that has none of the huge pool of Pokemon that Rhydon can deal with are pretty much non-existent, and teams full of Rhydon answers are generally terrible anyway. This is already getting quite long, so I'll end off by saying that, while Rhydon and Mega Steelix do have their differences, there is a lot of things binding these two together. Not only in what they do and how they impact and influence the metagame, but also why it was important to be prepared to deal with Mega Steelix, and why you currently has to prepare for Rhydon.
For everyone reading this:
Don't get me wrong, they have several things different about them. However, when you look closer at how they actually perform(ed) in the metagame, they share a striking number of similarities. First of all, they both have good offensive presence on a team, even when uninvested, combined with very solid bulk on both sides. Comparatively, the offensive power between the two is almost identical and only slight differences in physical and special bulk. As Rhydon gets a lot of its bulk from Eviolite, it's has some more worries when switching in on Pokemon that have it, something that Mega Steelix never had to worry about. It is a fairly significant downside, but realistically a lot of the Pokemon that use Knock Off, Rhydon aren't switching in on anyway, except Archeops and some others. Mega Steelix, when it was around, had multiple different sets, both defensive and offensive on any type of team, be it stall, balanced teams, or offense. Similarly to that, Rhydon's two most common sets, Double Dance and Tank, can fit on pretty much every type of team and do well. While Rhydon's typing leaves it with two 4x weaknesses compared to Mega Steelix, it also has some upsides, such as resisting Fire instead of being weak to it.
They both contribute a huge amount of team support for any team that they are on though, since even offensive sets are relatively bulky, and defensive sets still has a fair bit of bulk behind them. They can both deal with large portions of the metagame for their teammates very well. Mega Steelix was partially praised for its "splashability", its ability to fit on just about every team and do well, and it's something that Rhydon shares. An Electric immunity and several other useful resists (Normal, Flying, Fire) are all things that most teams want, and with Rhydon's already great bulk many teams have a place for Rhydon.
Rhydon's ability to run two completely different sets, with mostly different counters is also something that sets it apart from what Mega Steelix did. Being able to run a fast set that can outspeed most of its common switch ins is a huge advantage. And while Steelix never had Speed boosting among its possible sets like Rhydon have, it still forced a massive amount of switches that it could take advantage of to fire off strong attacks, much like Rhydon. Just by its mere presence, Normal and Flying types without a way around Rhydon become liabilities, as Rhydon's bulk easily allows it to switch in on mostly anything it resists, especially physical attacks.
The last thing I want to touch on is a bit more subjective, but still holds true for them both. Mega Steelix was one of the easiest, most simple Pokemon to use during its stay in NU and right now Rhydon is, quite frankly, probably the easiest, most straightforward Pokemon to use in the metagame. Regardless of match up or team structure, it will always contribute with something in a game, since teams that has none of the huge pool of Pokemon that Rhydon can deal with are pretty much non-existent, and teams full of Rhydon answers are generally terrible anyway. This is already getting quite long, so I'll end off by saying that, while Rhydon and Mega Steelix do have their differences, there is a lot of things binding these two together. Not only in what they do and how they impact and influence the metagame, but also why it was important to be prepared to deal with Mega Steelix, and why you currently has to prepare for Rhydon.
For everyone reading this:
- Does this above accurately match up with your own experiences with Rhydon?
- Did I miss, or otherwise neglected to mention something that changes the overall description here?
- Any other random thoughts that popped up while reading this?
I think you are underestimating Rhydons 4x weakness to grass and water. You are right that rhydon and steelix have similiar roles in NU, but rhydon 4x weaknesses makes it easy to get around it if your team struggles with it. Look at the following examples:
In S rhydon counters Tauros and Archeops. But Tauros can run surf, and archeops can run aqua tail. None of these could touch steelix
In A+ rhydon counters MegaAudino, garbodor and scyther
Audino can run grass knot, garbodor can run seed bomb and scyther is countered (although it can grab momentum with uturn)
Steelix hard countered all of these
In A rhydon counters kangaskhan and Liepard. Although it doesnt like getting eviolite knocked off
Kangaskhan can run aqua tail and liepard can run seed bomb.
These pokemon could do absolutely nothing to mega steelix.
So no matter what, if your team struggles with rhydon. All you have to do is to give your physical attackers a grass og water move, and you are good to go.
Which means rhydon doesnt limit teambuilding in the way mega steelix did at all.
In S rhydon counters Tauros and Archeops. But Tauros can run surf, and archeops can run aqua tail. None of these could touch steelix
In A+ rhydon counters MegaAudino, garbodor and scyther
Audino can run grass knot, garbodor can run seed bomb and scyther is countered (although it can grab momentum with uturn)
Steelix hard countered all of these
In A rhydon counters kangaskhan and Liepard. Although it doesnt like getting eviolite knocked off
Kangaskhan can run aqua tail and liepard can run seed bomb.
These pokemon could do absolutely nothing to mega steelix.
So no matter what, if your team struggles with rhydon. All you have to do is to give your physical attackers a grass og water move, and you are good to go.
Which means rhydon doesnt limit teambuilding in the way mega steelix did at all.
Smh dont wanna submit a low effort post but
Tauros runs Fire Blast. Its a special attack. Its SpA is shitty, but Life Orb and Sheer ForcQuicp. Granted Mawile isn't common anymore, so thats one less mon fblast hits. Its still good for Gourgeist.
I'll type up a decent reply to QQ's post when I can.
I think Rhydon and Mlix have plenty of similarities but the latter takes it to another level. Prepping for Don isn't as much of an issue because it's not inconvenient to carry coverage moves to hit it. Grass/water moves are by no means uncommon and with the x4 weakness even weak moves can 2hko. Grass Knot (/hp grass) has the added benefit of hitting Don+stuff like Carra, Quagsire and other mons for massive damage and it doesn't make me feel at all like I'm missing out on anything by running it on stuff like Magmortar, Archeops, Mesprit, Pyroar, etc. There's enough common mons to warrant carrying that coverage besides Don.
Regarding splashability, yeah its super easy to fit Rhydon on your team but it's not like Mlix where you just put it on and your team is already better.
Tauros runs Fire Blast. Its a special attack. Its SpA is shitty, but Life Orb and Sheer ForcQuicp. Granted Mawile isn't common anymore, so thats one less mon fblast hits. Its still good for Gourgeist.
I think Rhydon and Mlix have plenty of similarities but the latter takes it to another level. Prepping for Don isn't as much of an issue because it's not inconvenient to carry coverage moves to hit it. Grass/water moves are by no means uncommon and with the x4 weakness even weak moves can 2hko. Grass Knot (/hp grass) has the added benefit of hitting Don+stuff like Carra, Quagsire and other mons for massive damage and it doesn't make me feel at all like I'm missing out on anything by running it on stuff like Magmortar, Archeops, Mesprit, Pyroar, etc. There's enough common mons to warrant carrying that coverage besides Don.
Regarding splashability, yeah its super easy to fit Rhydon on your team but it's not like Mlix where you just put it on and your team is already better.
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The big difference between fire blast and surf is a sheer force boost, which works out to a 53bp difference when factored in. I'm not say that surf is bad but it is just so weak compared to it's other options.
Gothitelle moved from RU to NU
Piloswine moved from PU to NU
Quick shifts have given Piloswine the official NU tag and a gift of Gothitelle. What are your thoughts on Gothitelle? Outclassed or does it have something special that will help it stand out?
Piloswine moved from PU to NU
Quick shifts have given Piloswine the official NU tag and a gift of Gothitelle. What are your thoughts on Gothitelle? Outclassed or does it have something special that will help it stand out?
I don't really see any niche with Goth. As a Calm Mind user Musharna and Mesprit do its job far better, and as a trick room attacker even Beheeyem is better due to its raw power and lower speed. Maybe with Competitive it can do shit like KO Mawile with HP Fire or something but other than that, not much. (As for Specs, again, look at Beheeyem instead, its power is much greater)
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