Metagame np: Stage 8 - Dream at Tempo 119 (READ POST #119)

[kay]

I think Balanced is by far the best play style in NU. One thing tho that I'd argue is that semi stall can still be effective in this meta given how good some of the mons you can run on semi stall are. Things like Mega Audino, Poliwrath, Garbodor, and Gourgiest all work very well in this metagame with Wish support. The key to running semi stall now I think is running mons that are bulky enough to take hits and work well with wish support, have good enough typing to be relevant switch ins to top tier mons, and have enough power to still kill things. I think a prime example of this kind of mon would be Poliwrath. Sporting good bulk, an amazing typing that lets it deal with things like Klinklang and SD Samurott, and enough offensive pressure to still threaten your opponent.

I still feel like defensive teams still have enough going for them, but they have to be run more like bulky offense then actual stall teams.

 

[Banan123]

A bit off the topic, but what do you guys think about implementing playstyles viability ranking under pokemon vr thread? I feel like this would help new players getting familiar with the tier and possibly prevent toxic+protect on random mons like Rhydon on low ladder. When I started playing competitevely I didn't knew anything about the playstyles and I was building without any vision, so maybe if new players read playstyles vr they will get interested in what it is and do some research about it. I don't think that's nesessary, but maybe it'd help some people out.

 

[Kiyo]

I don't actually think what you're talking about would fix poor sets on the lower ladder at all. From what I can tell you're suggesting we dedicate a thread that lists viable playstyles in a subjective process from best to worst (i.e. balance > stall) Which doesnt actually help with differentiating good sets from bad ones, or help players design well thought out teams. We have an entire section of the site devoted to producing quality sample sets and descriptions that are approved by knowledgable members of a tiers playerbase and a grammar prose team.

I really struggle to see how people would be any more inclined to do anything for themselves or "research" independently. We are very good about having resources that cater to beginners, for example the three resources I've listed below which even contain links to more detailed information if the users interest is peaked.

NU Smogdex
NU Info
The Beginner's Guide to NU

These are stickied at the top of the subforum, yet they don't get read. The rules for the site are in a banner across the top of every forum, but they don't get read. The problem isn't a lack of resources to make newer players better, it's that newer players don't care to get better or don't like how it's done the right way.

I don't feel like I got my point across well, but hopefully you can understand where I'm coming from.

 

[Banan123]

Yeah I see your point. I'm not talking about dedicating whole thread for it, but rather give it a quick mention under pokemon vr thread. It takes like 5 seconds to do. I honestly forgot that new players don't really care about this stuff, but it still would help pokemon veterans that are getting back into nu and that small percentage that cares to become better. As I said before it definitely isn't necessary.

 

[marilli]

On topic of role compression and also on topic of 'ladder sets are bad' i think AV users provide a lot of role compression. They tolerate lazy teambuilding by letting you compress roles at cost of being slightly worse in its initial role, which sometimes isn't even relevant when they're great at their initial job. It's obvious when you look at Magmortar: AV affords your Pokemon have more opportunities to leverage in a favorable position while also performing its job as an attacker, which it's already amazing at, life orb or not.

Stall is hard to do right and the fact that they often rely heavily on dino / quag makes it easy to take advantage if they are properly prepared. I'd have thought that prior to the august drops that Skuntank would be great for stall, but stall seems to still suffer. I thought that stall had tons of the exact same issues mentioned above already since oras and I don't quite see how stall being bad for those reasons is a new development.

 

[ryan]

The problem with stall right now is that offensive teams just have so many ways to punish passive Pokemon. That's the same reason why we've seen such a sudden decline in Pokemon like Ferroseed and Prinplup—they're still good at what they do, but they open the door for a number of threatening offensive Pokemon to come in and either set up or just go ape on your team. However, I also think this thread is too harsh on stall, and some of the arguments against it have been laughable. Stall cannot be built in a way that it allows you to defeat every team, just like offense cannot be built in a way that it can break every team. That's something you have to accept from the moment you start building your team. You'll get pretty far into the team and say, "this is pretty weak to x," adjust it, and then say, "but without y I'm weak to z." You have to build with certain weaknesses because there's just not enough slots on a team. Cover all of the most relevant metagame threats and go from there. The more you can beat the better, but don't sacrifice covering Samurott or Sawk so that you can cover another five random Pokemon.

Offensive teams are still generally better than stall because you're forcing the opponent to answer to you. "Do you have an answer for my Klinklang? How are you going to deal with my Haunter? Where is your answer for my Pyroar?" Defensive teams are almost always on the responding side of the battle, which makes sense because that's their very nature, switching into things and spending your free turns setting up hazards or throwing out status moves. But that very nature also puts them at a constant disadvantage, wherein the offensive team is constantly throwing punches, and the stall team is just trying to live through them. Even after that, the stall team still has to win the game, not just not-lose it. Losing to a bulky setup lastmon isn't uncommon if you don't have an answer to it outside of Whirlwind or Roar.

There's a lot to keep in mind when building and playing with stall, but it's still fine as a playstyle. It's just not as good as it was back in XY, and it's a lot more one-dimensional as options decrease and the metagame fluctuates.

 

[Steakburgers]

Does anyone think that m-audino may be just a bit too good? Everyone knows how insanely hard it is to take it down with defensive sets, but it also has a cm+3 attacks set that has almost as good coverage as the most uncounterable mon in nu, Magmortar. If some sort of discussion on it can be opened that'd be cool, cause at this point, im finding it insanely tough to have to deal with it in games

 

[Louna]

Audino isn't too good, especially since Skuntank's drop, we have a lot of Pokémon who can pressure him like Klinklang, Skuntank, Vileplume, Haunter, Mawile, Pawniard. Audino can't set up easily his calm mind due to his lack of speed, we have the opportunity to hit him before he cm. The defensive set is more a set up folder for a lot of things. Klinklang, Scyther, Musharna, all these things can easily set up on him. I don't think Audino is too good, it just need some preparation.

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

Thing with mega audino is that, yes it has insane bulk with fairy typing which makes it somewhat difficult to take down, it is so slow and so weak. 50 base speed with 80 sp.atk is so bad and makes it easier to take advantage of and force out. Unlike magmortar, who has similar coverage, it can back that up with base 125 sp.atk and 83 speed in exchange for less bulk and worse defensive typing (fire is still a good defensive type, idc what anyone says, it's just not as good as normal/fairy). I'm not at all saying mega audino is bad, there's just so much more stuff worthy of being suspected over this. *cough* Sawk *cough* Lilligant *cough*

And it's the tier's only knock off switch in, please don't make that move more aids in NU than it already is.

 

[kay]

I definitely don't think it's 'too good' by any means. The problem is even tho it's good at setting up, it needs to before it becomes meaningfully powerful. Being slow and needing to set up really leaves it open to things like Klinklang, Garbodor, Skuntank, and Haunter. Now the CM 3 attacks set can lure a lot of the normal switch ins and kill them but if you're running cm 3 attacks then it's definitely not something thats too hard to beat as it gets worn down.

Now the possibility of these two sets along with the wish sets are what makes it really good and on paper it sounds really hard to build around as it, in theory, has away around all of its checks and counters. The problem is its not as good in practice as it is on paper. CM 3 attacks isn't going to sweep you, it's going to lure something in and kill it at most. The only set you're at risk of straight losing to is CroDino which is very easy to counter by the number of good offensive Steel/ Poison types as well as all the viable Taunt/ Encore users.

 

[Disjunction]

Great discussion for the first week, gang! I'd love to see we keep this momentum going with our second topic!

This week we'll be discussing a set up sweeper that's been gaining a lot of notoriety: Vivillon! This Pokemon went from apparent non-existence to a rampaging behemoth that requires the utmost care to take out. Which of Vivillon's traits help it stand out right now? How do you prepare for Vivillon on your teams, if at all? What kind of teams does Vivillon do well against?

Obviously there's more to Vivillon than this, I just wanted to throw some starter questions out there to get you guys rolling.

 

[honchkrow]

As of recent, I feel people have been realizing that sleep inducers in NU are incredibly threatening. Jynx, Jumpluff and Vivillon have all increased in popularity recently because sleep is so underrated. The reason Vivillon is so amazing right now is because is has access to Energy ball which murks its checks like Rhydon. The reason this move is so important is because people some of the top checks to flying types include Lanturn and Rhydon. I'd also like to point out that the endeavor set is still great its just not as good if your opponent is running rock blast Rhydon. As of recent, my way to deal with this thing has been through AV mortar, Lilligant to outspeed and sleep it, Klinklang, and bulky Rotom. I would advise people to run more than 1 check to certain things in the tier because it is easy for checks to get worn down. i.e. if you have Lanturn as your flying resist and it gets weakened by Vivillon, you are vulenerable to a Samurott or something because you compiled too many rolls into one pokemon. I know Kiyo has touched on this, but its important to bring up again.

 

[Pokedots]

Overall I think it's the combination of several tier shifts that have led Vivillon to the prominence it now has. Arguably the most important was that, with Sneasel banned, Rhydon rose back up over Regirock as the premier bulky Rock-type, and while Flying-types such as Acheops and Scyther still struggle with Rhydon to an extent, Vivillon really has no trouble at all with it. It has emerged as a top threat because of how unprepared a lot of teams were for it, as they ran Rhydon as their sole Flying resist.

For such a frail Pokemon, Vivillon actually gets a ton of setup opportunities because it turns everything slower than it that can't take a +1 Hurricane into a liability, and even before it gets the chance to sweep, it's still a very threatening presence; Vivillon's almost as notorious as a lead as it is a sweeper (and it can play both of these roles with the same set), and a powerful, accurate special Flying STAB is really good in this meta because of just how fast it can wear its switch-ins down. Vivillon mainly suffers from its pathetic bulk (unlike Scyther) and necessitating hazard control (which to be fair has gotten easier), which means it's not something you can just slap into any team, and it's very sesceptible to priority, but it's just so damn scary; it's easily one of my least favorite things to face in this meta, right along with Jynx and Combusken (and that goddamn Combusken+Malamar core floating around).

 

[kay]

Honestly Vivillon is one of the main reasons I run a lot of priority which seems to be a must have in this meta. Being able to shoot off accurate sleep powders is nothing to scoff at as it cripples most teams no matter what kind of team you use. Backing that up with accurate hurricanes and the ability to even set up makes this mon a monster.

On one of my favorite teams I'm currently running I've been using lead endeavor Vivillon and it puts in so much work. Being able to potentially sleep something, rack of massive damage, and then pulling out endeavor after you've been brought to your sash is extremely strong. People are just not currently packing the right flying resist to beat it currently. People have been depending more and more on things like Lanturn and Rhydon as their main flying resists which really puts Vivillon in a good spot with the coverage options it can run with Energyball. Over all I'd say teams are really unprepared for what this mon does right now and can really abuse people who are just not prepared to take it on. It's definitely an up and coming threat in the metagame.

 

[erisia]

Vivillon is one of those Pokémon that I always keep in mind when I build a team, just because it's so easy for it to sweep unless you have a dedicated response to sleep or have miraculous prediction skills. Tbh it and Lilligant are probably good reasons as to why AV Magmortar is so good, because it can switch into them both with impunity and fire off attacks from there. It also has a surprising amount of opportunities to switch in, especially if you can keep Rocks off the field, due to its immunity to Ground and 4x resistances to Grass and Fighting. I've had some success running the Substitute mono-attacker set recently, as the likes of Rhydon and Quagsire can be lured in quite easily with something like Special Skuntank or HP Grass Magmortar, which no-one seems to predict for some reason. Vivillon loves Substitutes due to its Speed and ability to scout opponents before firing off a Sleep Powder or Hurricane, and because of its non-existent bulk, there's very little cost most of the time.

Of course, it's complete setup bait for Safety Goggles Klinklang. ;)

 

[Pokedots]

I actually really love this metagame, it feels as though there's a certain freedom to teambuilding that I haven't had in almost any meta before except for the post-Fires, pre-Magneton era, which lasted 3 weeks ;~; This might just be because I'm becoming a better builder, but building around any random Pokemon/core that interests me is easier than ever, and in general there's a large number underrated Pokemon at the moment that are really worth looking into and trying out.

Grumpig @ Leftovers / Colbur Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 172 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Taunt
- Toxic / Thunder Wave / Signal Beam

I've recently been taking a liking to Grumpig, and I've built a few teams around it that I've enjoyed using. Though stat-wise it's just a worse Mesprit, Thick Fat actually lets Grumpig check a really unique combination of Pokemon (Fire, Ice, Psychic, soft checking Fighting-types), making it a godsend for teams that need the specific qualities it provides. And even beyond just its ability, a unique access to Focus Blast, being actually fairly fast, and having Taunt+Toxic can actually make it surprisingly hard to switch into outside of like Skuntank and Xatu and a bit of a nightmare for anything slower that can't do significant damage. For the last slot, T-Wave, Signal Beam, and even Grass Knot, Shadow Ball (still hits Psychis+Xatu but unlike Signal doesn't hit Malamar), and Power Gem (it nails Scyther and Xatu @.@) are also cool options. Also of note is that Grumpig+Ferroseed form a really good core in how they cover nearly everything outside of like, Flying-types and Rhydon. I've always wanted to try this thing out and now that I have, I really encourage everyone to give it a chance.

Roselia @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
- Spikes
- Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb
- Leaf Storm

Though Roselia's a lot less of a niche choice than Grumpig, it's probably just as rare and under appreciated, largely because it's a Poison-type that doesn't check Fighting-types, unlike Garbodor and Vileplume, and is a lot less physically bulky than Ferroseed. Offensive sets especially are almost never seen, but I've been using it in a few teams and it's put in quite a bit of work most games. Sleep Powder basically nullifies all switch-ins bar Ferro and Magmortar and guarantees a layer of Spikes, and Leaf Storm is a nuke that beats almost every SR setter, which is a big niche over Garb since that's easily taken advantage of by Grounds or Rock-types. I've been experimenting with faster and bulkier spreads, but this is probably the most "standard" one, getting the jump on Garbodor. I've used a Focus Sash Roselia a bit too, but I think I prefer this, mainly because I tend to build the types of teams that don't want a hazard lead and prefer one that can check some stuff (Lanturn and Lilli, mainly) and set up Spikes throughout the game.

Ninetales @ Life Orb / Shuca Berry / Passho Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball
- Psyshock

Because of its expansive coverage and Nasty Plot, Ninetales actually just bursts through traditional Fire resists and special walls in general. This used to be a lot more common/potent back when it was one of the few/best offensive Typhlosion counters, but now unfortunately its defensive utility kinda boils down to a Lilli and Mega Audino check, soft Ice-resist, and I guess Magmortar check if it runs Shuca. It overall makes up for this with sheer wallbreaking prowess though, and if it does its job right, it can leave the field wide open for stuff like Floatzel to sweep. I've been fairly impressed by this so far.

Vigoroth @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 248 HP / 248 SpD / 12 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Return
- Taunt
- Slack Off

This thing looks extremely cool and I'll probably make a team around it in the near future, but since I was making a post about underrated threats I figured I'd share this potentially good one. The spread's stolen from PU and lets it outspeed neutral nature base 70s. Though it suffers from the omnipresence of Fighting-types (though this thing actually beats Yama if it switches into it by taking ~50% at +2 and KOing Yama with a +2 Return w/ the defense drops) and the larger number of Knock Off user, this thing's actually really bulky and just wins against anything that can't 2HKO it (even setup sweepers such as Scyther and Samurott actually lose if they switch in as it bulks up). Vigoroth faces a lot of competition from Malamar, but it has big niches in actually reliable recovery (which means it only has to avoid the 2HKO instead of the 3HKO and isn't potentially useless for two turns) and in beating (Gourgeist-XL thanks to Taunt, Scyther, Psychic-types w/ Signal, Mega Audino, Samurott, Weezing) and losing (faster Ghost-types and Fighting-types) to different things.

Other than Vigoroth, these Pokemon aren't really the most niche things, but they're certainly pretty underused and under appreciated; they're the types of things I encourage people to try out and see for themselves how good they are, because niche Pokemon tend to be one's favorite things to use. What are some unique/rare/niche Pokemon or cores you guys have been using recently or want to use in the near future? When you scroll down the list of Pokemon, which ones stick out to you as potentially good? Personally, other than the aforementioned Vigoroth, I've been wanting to try out Simisage, Clefairy, and offensive Xatu+Jumpluff. You can even talk about any Pokemon that you've tried out and ended up disappointing you; I made an imo pretty solid Arbok squad, and while in a few games it was a really potent wallbreaker, it ended up being useless when the opponent had common stuff like Weezing, Klinklang (I ran Aqua Tail/Seed Bomb over EQ), and Ferro.

haha lets steal some mons from pu

 

[Brawlfest]

I've been using it a whole ton and can confirm that Offensive Roselia is an amazing spiker, pivot, and nuke all in one; tbh for a lot of my offensive teams I've preferred it over Garb for the sole reason that it can condense a lot more roles + with Sleep Powder + Leaf Storm its surprisingly difficult to switch into. This said, I've found 200 Speed to be the minimum you should run on it; 176 really isnt a significant tier as while jumping Golurk + Cacturne may seem tempting, neither is particularly common and Cacturne can easily decimate Roselia with a Sucker Punch. I feel getting a jump on Modest Aurorus which is a much more omnipotent and commonly seen threat is key; as most will not expect to get outsped and OHKOed immediately by a Roselia. Especially for the kinds of Bulky Offense / Balance teams this variant of rose will find itself on that Aurorus prides itself on having few switchins to, this jump imo is pretty valuable. Outside of that I've experimented with HP Ground and Stun Spore, both of which I feel are valuable to mention. HP Ground pressures Skuntank and Klinklang which are otherwise good checks to Roselia a lot, and especially combined with the spikes it lays down itself will put them in a easy 2HKO range. Stun Spore is useful as Roselia is typically brought in on pokemon it forces out, and especially if another common mon like Vivi or Jynx with sleep is already paired w/ it the para spread helps a lot. Below is a modified set w/ the aforementioned options.

Roselia @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder / Hidden Power [Ground] / Stun Spore
- Spikes

 

[tmacbalanced]

I've been using it a whole ton and can confirm that Offensive Roselia is an amazing spiker, pivot, and nuke all in one; tbh for a lot of my offensive teams I've preferred it over Garb for the sole reason that it can condense a lot more roles + with Sleep Powder + Leaf Storm its surprisingly difficult to switch into. This said, I've found 200 Speed to be the minimum you should run on it; 176 really isnt a significant tier as while jumping Golurk + Cacturne may seem tempting, neither is particularly common and Cacturne can easily decimate Roselia with a Sucker Punch. I feel getting a jump on Modest Aurorus which is a much more omnipotent and commonly seen threat is key; as most will not expect to get outsped and OHKOed immediately by a Roselia. Especially for the kinds of Bulky Offense / Balance teams this variant of rose will find itself on that Aurorus prides itself on having few switchins to, this jump imo is pretty valuable. Outside of that I've experimented with HP Ground and Stun Spore, both of which I feel are valuable to mention. HP Ground pressures Skuntank and Klinklang which are otherwise good checks to Roselia a lot, and especially combined with the spikes it lays down itself will put them in a easy 2HKO range. Stun Spore is useful as Roselia is typically brought in on pokemon it forces out, and especially if another common mon like Vivi or Jynx with sleep is already paired w/ it the para spread helps a lot. Below is a modified set w/ the aforementioned options.

Roselia @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder / Hidden Power [Ground] / Stun Spore
- Spikes

You know, I gotta say that it's pretty cool that it can take a kiss from Jynx then switch out to a mon that can handle it. Really cool pivot in my opinion for stuff like that. Of course, gotta watch out for the dual STAB super effective hits. It also doesn't have to worry about getting will-o-wisp'd like Garbador that much since it's a special attacker and it has natural cure. Being able to keep to up that offensive pressure is always nice. I've even seen rest on this set & it seems pretty funny as you get instant full health and you wake up as soon as you come back in. The many different ways it can get recovery is really amazing (giga drain, rest, synthesis). So, that's definitely great in long term usage if you want to keep up the spike stacking and keep a poke asleep. There are definitely a lot of ways it can take up free turns so it's definitely a pokemon that won't let you down. Great find guys, I definitely liked using it.

 

[Brawlfest]

You know, I gotta say that it's pretty cool that it can take a kiss from Jynx then switch out to a mon that can handle it. Really cool pivot in my opinion for stuff like that. Of course, gotta watch out for the dual STAB super effective hits. It also doesn't have to worry about getting will-o-wisp'd like Garbador that much since it's a special attacker and it has natural cure. Being able to keep to up that offensive pressure is always nice. I've even seen rest on this set & it seems pretty funny as you get instant full health and you wake up as soon as you come back in. The many different ways it can get recovery is really amazing (giga drain, rest, synthesis). So, that's definitely great in long term usage if you want to keep up the spike stacking and keep a poke asleep. There are definitely a lot of ways it can take up free turns so it's definitely a pokemon that won't let you down. Great find guys, I definitely liked using it.

All of the recovery options you mentioned are really good for Rose's longevity, but are typically more useful on its Specially Defensive Set. That set will more likely take a lot more battering and will make more use out of its constant pivoting into strong special attacks and continuiously replenishing its health, for the most part the above rose is meant just to come in, Cripple something, and switch out, and really struggles to find space in its moveslot for recovery options.

 

[MZ]

I actually really love this metagame, it feels as though there's a certain freedom to teambuilding that I haven't had in almost any meta before except for the post-Fires, pre-Magneton era, which lasted 3 weeks ;~; This might just be because I'm becoming a better builder, but building around any random Pokemon/core that interests me is easier than ever, and in general there's a large number underrated Pokemon at the moment that are really worth looking into and trying out.

Grumpig @ Leftovers / Colbur Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 172 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Taunt
- Toxic / Thunder Wave / Signal Beam

I've recently been taking a liking to Grumpig, and I've built a few teams around it that I've enjoyed using. Though stat-wise it's just a worse Mesprit, Thick Fat actually lets Grumpig check a really unique combination of Pokemon (Fire, Ice, Psychic, soft checking Fighting-types), making it a godsend for teams that need the specific qualities it provides. And even beyond just its ability, a unique access to Focus Blast, being actually fairly fast, and having Taunt+Toxic can actually make it surprisingly hard to switch into outside of like Skuntank and a bit of a nightmare for anything slower than it that can't do significant damage. For the last slot, T-Wave, Signal Beam, and even Grass Knot are also cool options. Also of note is that Grumpig+Ferroseed form a really good core in how they cover nearly everything outside of like, Flying-types and Rhydon. I've always wanted to try this thing out and now that I have, I really encourage everyone to give it a chance.

Roselia @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
- Spikes
- Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb
- Leaf Storm

Though Roselia's a lot less of a niche choice than Grumpig, it's probably just as rare and under appreciated, largely because it's a Poison-type that doesn't check Fighting-types, unlike Garbodor and Vileplume, and is a lot less physically bulky than Ferroseed. Offensive sets especially are almost never seen, but I've been using it in a few teams and it's put in quite a bit of work most games. Sleep Powder basically nullifies all switch-ins bar Ferro and Magmortar and guarantees a layer of Spikes, and Leaf Storm is a nuke that beats almost every SR setter, which is a big niche over Garb since that's easily taken advantage of by Grounds or Rock-types. I've been experimenting with faster and bulkier spreads, but this is probably the most "standard" one, getting the jump on Garbodor. I've used a Focus Sash Roselia a bit too, but I think I prefer this, mainly because I tend to build the types of teams that don't want a hazard lead and prefer one that can check some stuff (Lanturn and Lilli, mainly) and set up Spikes throughout the game.

Ninetales @ Life Orb / Shuca Berry / Passho Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball
- Psyshock

Because of its expansive coverage and Nasty Plot, Ninetales actually just bursts through traditional Fire resists and special walls in general. This used to be a lot more common/potent back when it was one of the few/best offensive Typhlosion counters, but now unfortunately its defensive utility kinda boils down to a Lilli and Mega Audino check, soft Ice-resist, and I guess Magmortar check if it runs Shuca. It overall makes up for this with sheer wallbreaking prowess though, and if it does its job right, it can leave the field wide open for stuff like Floatzel to sweep. I've been fairly impressed by this so far.

Vigoroth @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 248 HP / 248 SpD / 12 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Return
- Taunt
- Slack Off

This thing looks extremely cool and I'll probably make a team around it in the near future, but since I was making a post about underrated threats I figured I'd share this potentially good one. The spread's stolen from PU and lets it outspeed neutral nature base 70s. Though it suffers from the omnipresence of Fighting-types (though this thing actually beats Yama if it switches into it by taking ~50% at +2 and KOing Yama with a +2 Return w/ the defense drops) and the larger number of Knock Off user, this thing's actually really bulky and just wins against anything that can't 2HKO it (even setup sweepers such as Scyther and Samurott actually lose if they switch in as it bulks up). Vigoroth faces a lot of competition from Malamar, but it has big niches in actually reliable recovery (which means it only has to avoid the 2HKO instead of the 3HKO and isn't potentially useless for two turns) and in beating (Gourgeist-XL thanks to Taunt, Scyther, Psychic-types w/ Signal, Mega Audino, Samurott, Weezing) and losing (faster Ghost-types and Fighting-types) to different things.

Other than Vigoroth, these Pokemon aren't really the most niche things, but they're certainly pretty underused and under appreciated; they're the types of things I encourage people to try out and see for themselves how good they are, because niche Pokemon tend to be one's favorite things to use. What are some unique/rare/niche Pokemon or cores you guys have been using recently or want to use in the near future? When you scroll down the list of Pokemon, which ones stick out to you as potentially good? Personally, other than the aforementioned Vigoroth, I've been wanting to try out Simisage, Clefairy, and offensive Xatu+Jumpluff. You can even talk about any Pokemon that you've tried out and ended up disappointing you; I made an imo pretty solid Arbok squad, and while in a few games it was a really potent wallbreaker, it ended up being useless when the opponent had common stuff like Weezing, Klinklang (I ran Aqua Tail/Seed Bomb over EQ), and Ferro.

haha lets steal some mons from pu

no, really. it's fine. we don't care.

I care immensely

 

[tmacbalanced]

All of the recovery options you mentioned are really good for Rose's longevity, but are typically more useful on its Specially Defensive Set. That set will more likely take a lot more battering and will make more use out of its constant pivoting into strong special attacks and continuiously replenishing its health, for the most part the above rose is meant just to come in, Cripple something, and switch out, and really struggles to find space in its moveslot for recovery options.

Yeah I should of been more specific lol

 

[Quite Quiet]

Granbull moved from NU to RU
Exeggutor moved from NU to PU
Pawniard moved from NU to PU
Gorebyss moved from NU to PU
Gothitelle moved from NU to PU
Bouffalant moved from NU to PU
Pinsir moved from NU to OU

So... this happened :o

 

[honchkrow]

im PISSED

e: only good thing is that the meta will be stable with spl coming up but FUCK give me pinsir back >:(

 

[Disjunction]

OK, so I'm just going to say I'm not very surprised by these shifts. It's been a long time coming that PU got some drops and all that mons that did drop aren't amazing in NU right now. Hell, even the two mons we lost, Pinsir and Granbull, weren't the most metagame-defining threats for their own reasons. We may not have gotten many fun toys, but we've at least cleared out a lot of the bottom-of-the-barrel-esque mons.

Hopefully in the next shift we can drop Cradily, Muk, Mantine, Miltank, and Cryogonal so we have an accurate representation of our tier list, but we can take it a step at a time.

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

Rip my granbull teams... oh wait lolololol