Jukain
!_!
I think I failed to be as clear as I could be in my previous post; I was really tired when I wrote it and I'd like to clear up some of the things that I seem to have left ambiguous and/or vague.
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Even if you increase SpD (I'll include your benchmark and some ~arbitrary~ benchmarks to show just how much investment you need for this:
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Slowbro: 182-216 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Slowbro: 170-202 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Slowbro: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Slowbro: 158-188 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
You need 160 SpD EVs to get this into a workable range. No Slowbro that isn't Mega can afford to run this, and Mega doesn't have Leftovers to offset some of the damage, so it's 2HKOed anyways. As far as actually hitting Slowbro with Grass Knot due to the prediction involved...sure prediction goes both ways, but what else were you planning to switch into Mega Metagross? Assuming Slowbro is your best pivot into Mega Metagross (which it probably is), it doesn't require a top-tier player to realize that they can take advantage of this and the idea that it can be hit with Grass Knot on the switch isn't really assuming 'perfect prediction'; it's assuming that the player realizes that the opponent doesn't really have other options, especially if they don't know you have Grass Knot yet.. Even if you have something like defensive Landorus-T + Slowbro, Mega Metagross can still just chip away with Grass Knot
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 95-112 (24.8 - 29.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
and then switch out to one of the many things that can deal with Landorus-T. If you're saying that you want to play around with pivoting different Pokemon in to scout, I mean yeah that can work out for you, but you're playing a really dangerous game at this point.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 212-250 (60.2 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Ferrothorn can't do anything besides situationally, taking a risk, getting some chip damage on Mega Metagross. It straight-up loses 1v1 and isn't even a check.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 250-295 (83.6 - 98.6%)
More often than not, Thundurus has to switch into Stealth Rock anyways, so even this chance can be nullified and with SR up even going for Thunder Wave is straight-up saccing Thundurus just to make it easier for the rest of the team to deal with something that doesn't care about switching out, making it a completely different scenario than a boosting sweeper which loses most of its usefulness and capability by being para'd.
You misunderstood my intentions; a "blanket check" implicates something like Slowbro or Landorus-T that can pivot into a lot of threats and effectively threaten them, wall them, or otherwise pressure them. Skarmory is not really a blanket check to the physical metagame considering the only Pokemon its beats are like Scarftar, non-Fire Blast Garchomp, Landorus-T (but it completely loses momentum on the U-turn), Excadrill, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, certain versions of Diggersby, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Metagross. The reason that it sees so much usage on stall teams is that it's one of basically two options not to get 6-0'd by Mega Pinsir and almost the only option not to get 6-0'd by Diggersby (which actually beats it with Fire Punch LO sets but that's not the topic here), as well as providing crucial Spikes or Defog support. I am not denying that Skarmory is a good Pokemon, but you are overrating it enormously. Skarmory is one of the easiest Pokemon to take advantage of in the tier because it poses essentially zero offensive threat, especially seeing as it absolutely has to run Counter if it wants to beat Mega Metagross. It's an important component of stall teams, but it's not very good on balanced teams in most cases because of this issue. Balance wants pivots, Pokemon that can steal momentum and soft check or counter a variety of threats for the team. Skarmory is mostly a stall Pokemon that sees use on a few balanced teams, but that's always out of necessity more than anything else.Skarmory is certainly a blanket check to the physical metagame (which is why it is featured alongside chansey on nearly every stall team). As such, it is a completely valid and very common counter for defensive teams, not to mention that Metagross has virtually no impact on its already high usage. I was obviously referring to defensive teams, so I don't really get your assumption that I was doing otherwise. Plus, you are greatly underselling Skarmory as a pokemon. Between whirlwind for boosting sweepers, counter for generic physical mons, and spikes/defog to take advantage of defensive mons like ferrothorn, it certainly isn't "one of the easiest pokemon to take advantage of." Stating that Skarm is a counter, and then dismissing it as if it is the worst mon in the tier is not proving much of anything, as it is still showing up on the great majority of defensive and even many balanced teams regardless.
Your first point isn't true, not even close. Assuming you're running the standard amount of SpD that's required for Keldeo, here's the calc:Slowbro is BARELY 2hkod by grass knot. Add just a small amount of special defense (which also allows it to check things like keldeo a bit better, in case you were planning to argue that moving 40 EVs makes Metagross too centralizing), and the threat of a 2hko diminishes quite a bit. Your argument is also flawed in that you are ignoring the practicality of the situation. For slowbro to be 2hkod, Metagross would have to predict the switch and use grass knot, a move that would do close to nothing against any other mon, giving them a free switch to beat/force out metagross. You could argue that the switch to slowbro would be obvious, but that is usually completely untrue given how Metagross' checks and counters are already very prevalent in the metagame. Rather than slowbro, a lando-t switch could happen, or perhaps to bisharp or rotom or (insert counter/check/soft check). Arguing perfect prediction, ESPECIALLY against a mon with regenerator, is most certainly not a proper justification for a mon's prowess. Making a more realistic assumption that slowbro switches in on another move, it now has a free turn to launch a scald/twave/fireblast, none of which the opposing offensive team wants to deal with.
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Even if you increase SpD (I'll include your benchmark and some ~arbitrary~ benchmarks to show just how much investment you need for this:
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Slowbro: 182-216 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Slowbro: 170-202 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Slowbro: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Slowbro: 158-188 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
You need 160 SpD EVs to get this into a workable range. No Slowbro that isn't Mega can afford to run this, and Mega doesn't have Leftovers to offset some of the damage, so it's 2HKOed anyways. As far as actually hitting Slowbro with Grass Knot due to the prediction involved...sure prediction goes both ways, but what else were you planning to switch into Mega Metagross? Assuming Slowbro is your best pivot into Mega Metagross (which it probably is), it doesn't require a top-tier player to realize that they can take advantage of this and the idea that it can be hit with Grass Knot on the switch isn't really assuming 'perfect prediction'; it's assuming that the player realizes that the opponent doesn't really have other options, especially if they don't know you have Grass Knot yet.. Even if you have something like defensive Landorus-T + Slowbro, Mega Metagross can still just chip away with Grass Knot
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 95-112 (24.8 - 29.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
and then switch out to one of the many things that can deal with Landorus-T. If you're saying that you want to play around with pivoting different Pokemon in to scout, I mean yeah that can work out for you, but you're playing a really dangerous game at this point.
I said I had covered this earlier in my post and if you had read you'd have noticed that I was talking about probabilities involved with Meteor Mash Attack raises, which are heavily amplified over the long term. That said, Gliscor that invests heavily in Defense (not the fast versions) is a fairly solid counter to Mega Metagross combined with other methods of checking it.Between poison heal, roost/protect, and teammates, Gliscor most certainly has plenty of longevity. O_o It is one of the most annoying pokemon to take down in the tier for just about any playstyle.
All that Mega Metagross lost by going for Meteor Mash is a tiny chunk of its health, even disregarding if they anticipate the switch. Hammer Arm does way more damage to Ferrothorn than can be made up for with crippling Mega Metagross with a TWave or recovered from Leech Seed.Again, perfect prediction =/= realistic. It's not as if ferro is weak to zen headbutt/meteor mash, the two moves that metagross would typically be comfortable spamming. Predicting the ferro switch (in a team that certainly has other checks such as lando-t, slowbro, etc.) is much easier said then done, especially with a move like hammer arm that is relatively weak and will leave metagross vulnerable due to the speed drop. Ferro is free to twave/leech seed.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 212-250 (60.2 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Ferrothorn can't do anything besides situationally, taking a risk, getting some chip damage on Mega Metagross. It straight-up loses 1v1 and isn't even a check.
Actually, I'd argue that it's way easier to wear down Landorus-T than Mega Metagross. Landorus-T is fairly easy to chip at given physical Pokemon that it wants to check, SR damage, and possible ability to punish it with Iron Barbs damage if you're using Ferrothorn. That's actually one of Scarf Landorus-T's biggest downfalls. The difference between EQ being easily taken advantage of here and in other scenarios is that Mega Metagross sort of forces Scarf Lando-T into a dilemma in that it can go for U-turn and gain momentum on a switch with the risk of Metagross staying in for an attack, or going for Earthquake and potentially losing all momentum because the opponent decided to play it safe. Landorus-T also can't really afford take that.Wearing metagross down 10% is much easier to do than getting lando down 50%. In fact, a u-turn from that very same lando can prevent metagross from being able to tank the eq. Earthquake is admittedly easy to take advantage of, but clearly it isn't all that much of a detriment given that scarf lando is one of the most, if not the most, common mons in the current meta. Arguing that an uninvested landorus has difficulty tanking metagross' strongest attack is quite silly in itself. Keldeo doesn't like switching into earthquakes. Who would have thought?
I covered pretty much your entire list of Pokemon; you didn't mention that many! You have done nothing to prove that Mega Metagross has a lot of checks, which also simply isn't the case. I pointed out why a few of the Pokemon that you mentioned as checks aren't actually good checks and you still went ahead and asserted this; quite simply I don't understand. Mega Metagross is hard to check because the majority of Pokemon used to revenge kill rely on significant amounts of prior damage and not that much can even beat it 1v1, which is one of the most basic requirements for a check.Regardless, taking a relatively large list of checks and counters and picking out a few that are allegedly not full stops (emphasis on allegedly, as noted above) does not particularly help your case. A check is a check is a check, and metagross has lots of them. Since when have we cared about a mon having counters post gen 5 anyway (plus metagross has some)?
Talk whatever trash you want about 81 Attack, but that's just an attempt to save face and you know it. Talonflame is not a weak Pokemon due to its access to high BP stabs and reasonably decent Attack stat backing that, and is a difficult Pokemon to tank hits from. It's impressive as hell for Mega Metagross to tank this hit under any circumstances. That calc proves nothing because Talonflame loses 1v1 with recoil taken into account and can't even switch in with SR up or any prior damage (ie it used an attack). About CB Talonflame OHKOing with Flare Blitz -- CB Talonflame is a bad set in this metagame, which is reinforced by the fact that it sees next to zero usage at higher level play in favor of SD sets, and is a revenge killer at best anyways.Let me rephrase that for you.
a STAB Flare Blitz coming off of 80 attack does not OHKO a pokemon that is weak to it and has 0 defensive investment.
See the issue? It's worth noting that Zen Headbutt does not OHKO either.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 247-292 (83.1 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Let that sink in for a moment; a STAB Tough Claws Zen Headbutt does not OHKO an uninvested Talonflame of all things. It's worth noting that Banded talonflame does indeed ko by a large margin. Talonflame will indeed have to sacrifice its life to take down a Metagross that it switches into (yes, talonflame beats metagross even when switching in, assuming that metagross zen headbutts rather than using another move too) due to the recoil. One on one, talonflame outright 1hkos a metagross that took a bit of chip damage (or just outright 1hkos with band). As you mentioned, a will-o-wisp from a talonflame also threatens greatly. Yes, metgross can switch out, but talonflame can easily predict that and roost (if it's 1 on 1, then it wouldn't have taken any damage from gross to being with).
what we can learn from this: when in doubt, even frail offensive mons can tank a neutral attack from metagross and threaten in return
Actually, it loses more than half the time after one turn of Life Orb damage.Did much less than I thought. Sorry for the claim! :) Twave is fun tho. It's also worth noting that metagross does not 1hko without rocks/chip damage.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 250-295 (83.6 - 98.6%)
More often than not, Thundurus has to switch into Stealth Rock anyways, so even this chance can be nullified and with SR up even going for Thunder Wave is straight-up saccing Thundurus just to make it easier for the rest of the team to deal with something that doesn't care about switching out, making it a completely different scenario than a boosting sweeper which loses most of its usefulness and capability by being para'd.
I don't think you can really risk going for Pursuit with Bisharp considering the stakes of this scenario. Also, yes the potential to lose momentum with Sucker Punch is something that isn't unique to Metagross, but it still has bearing on the effectiveness of Bisharp as a 'check' when it is a shaky one at best, not even OHKOing with Sucker Punch if Metagross is at full health and being stuck in a risky situation even if Metagross is weakened. The unreliability of Sucker Punch is actually one of Bisharp's biggest flaws and can't be discounted just because Metagross isn't the only thing that can take advantage of this.This is not unique to metagross, though. It is a flaw that comes along with using bisharp to begin with. The issue of offensive mon paired with keldeo is super common, and going against metagross in particular doesn't make bisharp any less viable. Metagross can switch, but it's only fair to mention that it needs to be wary of pursuit. This is a 2-way street.
The problem is that Mega Metagross matches up really well against so many Pokemon and dealing with it can come at such an enormous cost that even if you can 'deal with' Metagross eventually, the damage will already be done. Playing around it is really hard when even resisted Meteor Mashes against Pokemon that are less defensively inclined can do lots of damage. The Scizor example doesn't even rely on Metagross predicting with Hammer Arm, as you can just chop off ~35% with MMash + SR and switch out to your Scizor answer if you don't predict correctly or don't want to take risks with trying to predict. Offense can play around a lot of threats and has always been forced to adapt, to cope with Pokemon that can pressure so much and put in so much work against the team. The idea that offense has to play around with it was also true for Pokemon like Mega Mawile, Aegislash, etc but these Pokemon were still insanely effective and broken against those teams regardless because they were simply that hard to deal with. It can be argued that Mega Metagross is like this.As shown before, offense has the means to deal with metagross, whether it be through hard checks or preserving frail typical pokes. In the case of scizor, a more defensive sd setup is just as, if not more, common on balanced teams which counters metagross perfectly well. In the case of offensive scizor, this once again requires metagross to predict and hammer arm (given the likelihood that the team will also feature lando, thundy, talon, etc., hammer arm is rarely the most reliable move to spam). Even if the hammer arm connects, scizor is free to switch, and the offensive team can proceed to play around metagross and take advantage of the reduced speed. Metagross is more difficult to play around than the common offensive poke, but it is still similar in that offensive teams must partly rely on playing around it... it is simply the nature of offense. Playing reactively isn't exactly ideal. Offensive scizor isn't the best answer regardless due to it only really being able to chip away with knock off.
As you clarified I can understand the point you're trying to make a little better, and I can't do anything but agree with the fact that if you manage to weaken Mega Metagross to about half, the faster Megas have the ability to revenge kill it. The problem is the cost involved in doing so and that a 50% Metagross is far from useless, just in need of being played a little more carefully. Sure you can revenge kill it from there, but a well-played Metagross can just force that situation again. What do you do then? Sac something else to get the Pokemon that has to revenge kill after something else died or got crippled/heavily weakened to weaken Metagross in the first place? Mega Metagross is way more effective at taking hits and putting offensive pressure on the opposing team that pretty much anything else that does well against offense. Finally, Zen Headbutt 2HKOes even bulky DD Zard X, which is an inferior set anyways, so I'm not sure where that came into play as an actual answer.Forgive me for my phrasing, but I was meant to say that gross AT MOST speed ties many of the other common offensive megas. Many of them can't 1hko, but they can win against a weakened metagross (and they have the inherent advantage here since they are faster). They also offer the ability to get off strong chip damage to allow other members of the team a much easier time with it (after a high jump kick, for example, it is in ko range for mons like thunderus). This does require the sacrifice of a mon in this scenario, but again, that isn't uncommon at all for offensive teams that end up with a bad one-on-one matchup, and by the time gross comes out, sacking is less of an issue (not to mention that the option of playing around it still exists to get extra damage off). Some slower common megas also fare well (uninvested char-x is only taking 60% from zen headbutt. Bulky ddance can pretty much counter).
When I said at the beginning of this post that I looked back at my post and realized I could have been more clear, this was the main part I was talking about. The point I was attempting to convey is that even on teams that are theoretically well-prepared for it through combinations of what are regarded and decent checks/counters, practice can reveal that this isn't even enough. The examples I included are discardable and almost entirely irrelevant to the point I was trying to get across; I was just trying to provide some perspective. I'm not saying that the outcome of Mega Metagross putting enough pressure on the opposing team to break through these combos is the only outcome, but I am saying that it can happen because of Mega Metagross's sheer damage output and coverage, which means that the majority of its best checks and counters still take significant amounts of damage from its attacks. Mega Metagross can pressure the hell out of these Pokemon, limiting their ability to handle other things due to the stress related to tanking hits from Mega Metagross and providing potential for them to falter.What you literally just said:
"This particular third of your team covers metagross very well. I don't think so, tho."
You provided no support, no reasoning, and, further, dismissed the other 2/3 of the team that likely contains, naturally, more checks/the ability to better play around it.
In the rest of your examples, which are appreciably more explanatory, you are completely simplifying the game and laying it out as if there is no other outcome. It is completely unfair to even claim those as the most likely outcomes. Using a hypothetical play-by-play where metagross and the rest of the team magically sustain no damage is absolutely ridiculous.
This was a blunder and I've kinda rethought this; I'll drop this point.I don't understand. You completely dismiss my anecdotal claim, and then you proceed to make your own, completely lacking in detail or explanation other then "metagross is better than me even tho my team counter metagross." This is especially problematic because it was the basis of this entire section of argument...
The thing about Keldeo is that it has a lot of offensive checks in addition to the counters. Latios, Latias, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, and Gyarados can all do well against it defensively for offense, not to mention the plethora of offensive checks/revenge killers including Thundurus, Mega Manectric, Mega Sceptile, Tornadus-T, Raikou, LO Starmie, Talon BB, Mega Lopunny, Mega Gallade/Gard rking, etc...Scarf can surprise some of these Pokemon, but in that case there's more Pokemon added to this list because Scarf Keldeo is a lot weaker and easier to deal with in general.I would claim that the differences between metagross and other top-tier threats as far as having checks and counters are negligible, and in some cases nonexistent. What exactly is switching into specs/life orb keldeo on an offensive team? Latis are typically the main answer, and those are quickly dealth with by an icy wind. Sure, you can play around keldeo by switching your talonflame in on a predicted secret sword, but the same holds true for handling metagross.
I won't dispute that Mega Metagross's checks can fit onto teams rather decently to begin with, but you can't compare Mega Metagross to other top-tier threats because there's fewer real options in this regard. Pokemon like Keldeo, Latios (I hope I don't have to explain this one...), etc have a plethora of common checks and even counters to choose from, but Mega Metagross really doesn't. Pokemon that are so difficult to check/counter defensively like Mega Metagross are all much easier to revenge kill and less threatening to offensive teams on the whole because of this; this is what makes Metagross so special and is the reason why it's even being discussed. Mega Metagross is harder to prepare for and furthermore can't really be adequately prepared for at the teambuilder.This is a complete understatement. As shown above, and as confirmed by you in regard to a number of the previously mentioned checks, Metagross has very few checks/counters that wouldn't already be on a team to begin with. Perhaps it cinches the decision between adding a landorus-t or an excadrill, but that is true about nearly every top-tier mon. If keldeo wasn't around to launch powerful water/fighting attacks, it wouldn't be neccesary to carry a lati on every team. Without clefable, you wouldn't need a heatran/bisharp/other steel. Without bisharp, keldeo wouldn't be such a neccesity.
The fact of the matter is that all of these mons shape your decisions in the teambuilder, and metagross is no different. Can you honestly say: "without metagross, I would be able to run ______."? Correct me if I am mistaken, but I honestly can't think of anything that would have its viability significantly changed.