Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings (Under Construction)

[Funbot28]

A+ to S

Here to bump this nom yet again... Explanation in previous pages.

 

[Disjunction]

A+ to S

Here to bump this nom yet again... Explanation in previous pages.

I considered deleting this but I think it can be used as a nice example for posting etiquette here in the Viability Ranks.

1. 1 liner posts are EXTREMELY discouraged, especially for a topic that has been brought up already.
2. If a nomination went by unnoticed, especially one for an important rank like S rank, then it's probably for good reason. We have plenty of users who read every single post that goes through this thread and if nobody felt the need to make a comment on an important nom like this, it probably shouldn't happen. Not to say you can't bump a nom that happened a while ago, but this is the third instance of Megadino > S that I can recall in the past month.
3. If you are bumping something, have the courtesy to include your reasoning in the post instead of telling people to find the reasoning themselves.
4. Finally (and this isn't etiquette per say) but present your nomination to us. Your original post certainly had a line or two of reasoning, but it hardly touched on the the important parts of Mega Audino's impact on the metagame and why it deserves the single most important rank on the rankings.

tl;dr put effort into your writing instead of expecting discussion to just spontaneously start happening by writing a line or two.

Sorry if this came off as mean, by the way. I appreciate that you're trying to bring up a valid point for discussion, I just don't agree with how you went about it. I'm mostly trying to give some pointers to posters and let you know why this had to be the third time Mega Audino was brought up.

 

[Funbot28]

I considered deleting this but I think it can be used as a nice example for posting etiquette here in the Viability Ranks.

1. 1 liner posts are EXTREMELY discouraged, especially for a topic that has been brought up already.
2. If a nomination went by unnoticed, especially one for an important rank like S rank, then it's probably for good reason. We have plenty of users who read every single post that goes through this thread and if nobody felt the need to make a comment on an important nom like this, it probably shouldn't happen. Not to say you can't bump a nom that happened a while ago, but this is the third instance of Megadino > S that I can recall in the past month.
3. If you are bumping something, have the courtesy to include your reasoning in the post instead of telling people to find the reasoning themselves.
4. Finally (and this isn't etiquette per say) but present your nomination to us. Your original post certainly had a line or two of reasoning, but it hardly touched on the the important parts of Mega Audino's impact on the metagame and why it deserves the single most important rank on the rankings.

tl;dr put effort into your writing instead of expecting discussion to just spontaneously start happening by writing a line or two.

Sorry if this came off as mean, by the way. I appreciate that you're trying to bring up a valid point for discussion, I just don't agree with how you went about it. I'm mostly trying to give some pointers to posters and let you know why this had to be the third time Mega Audino was brought up.

I know, I was rushed when I posted this. Should have gave some explanation. Sorry for the inconvenience, just wanted to get my point across.

 

[Mar1onette]

-> C+
i would like to nominate Vanilluxe to to C+. Vanilluxe faces competition with all the other ice types in the tier like jynx, aurorus, rotom Frost, and even cryogonal as a place on a team, vaniluxe can't really do anything that the ice types already in the tier can't do and is checked by a majority of the meta because of its typing and mediocre speed, tho it can use automatize but would take space away from it that it could use for moves like flash cannon, signal beam, ice shard, or hp fire. vanilluxe really fails at being an offensive ice type because it lacks the speed to be good or great at it, and doesn't even have enough bulk like regice does to make up for it. i just see vanilluxe as out-classed and easily revenged killed or just outsped and killed by the common threats in NU making it a liability to the team. a comparison people could make with vanilluxe's bad typing and speed is with aurorus. aurorus also has bad typing and speed but aurorus has enough room for its STABS, a coverage move (has a better variety in moves), and even RP to make up for its speed and also has much more variety in sets and can set up SR. overall with vanilluxe being somewhat out-classed by other ice types in the tier and its bad speed and typing without the room or variety to make up for it, i think it should drop down to C+.

 

[Hootie]

Hold up you really can't say it's outclassed by other Ice-types when it has a niche over them (that being the strongest Freeze-Dry, a much better speed tier, and better typing than Aurorus, while still having decent bulk). Saying it faces competition from Cryogonal is laughable when you consider that its frail defense makes it a liability as soon as Pursuit user is seen in team preview not to mention that it's a really bad spinner. Jynx does sport more special attack, a better speed tier, and more useful ability, but again the physical frailty is a hinderence and Vanilluxe has Freeze-Dry over Jynx. Also I don't see how it faces competition from Rotom-F of all things when that thing is walled to hell and back by Lanturn. Vanilluxe's speed tier while disappointing is still made up with Weak Armor (though admittedly it doesn't come into play often, but it can still be useful) and to a lesser extent Ice Shard, which lets it pick off stuff like Archeops or other weakened mons, something other Ice-types are forced out by unless Jynx or Aurorus are running Scarf, both which have several flaws. Vanilluxe should stay in B-

 

[toreutic]

I'm really surprised to see so much support behind vanilluxe and am going to back up Mar1onette here by arguing the contrary. I'm writing this from mobile so hopefully the organization isn't too awful.

Regarding ice cream's niches over the other ice types in this tier, mentioned are its powerful freeze dry, speed tier, and bulk. The problems I see with these arguements:

1. Freeze dry isn't even that relevant seeing how Aurorus and Jynx both have coverage options that suit the same purpose of hitting lanturn. LO earth power and psyshock both 2hko after rocks respectively. While freeze dry maybe decent for pelipper and mantine, neither are very common in this meta as we have an abundance of hazard control.

2. Vanilluxe's speed tier is okay at best. It misses out on the important base 80 mark which really hurts it. Relevant pokemon that under speed such as ludi and wrath also have ways around vanilluxe in swift swim and vacuum wave (in wrath's case). Vanilluxe also is often forced to run modest in order to sustain its power.

3. Vanilluxe's bulk isn't bad, but ice typing is ice typing after all. Because of its speed tier, its often forced to take hits, on top of sr weakness, its really not bulky at all.

Really the only important niche I can think of is explosion which is nice to get off a final heavy hit.

On top of the points I addressed above, vanilluxe is a rather one dimsional Mon, basically functioning as an all out attacker. You can run automize, but it doesn't really have many great coverage options to clean up late game.

Both Jynx and Aurorus have much more utility and can perform multiple roles. Aurorus can set up rocks, run specs, and even be physical. Jynx has access to the coveted lovely kiss, can function as an anti-lead, or wallbreak with nasty plot.

There's a reason why vanilluxe gets no usage on the ladder. Feel free to refute any of the points I made.

 

[Kiyo]

I'm really surprised to see so much support behind vanilluxe and am going to back up Mar1onette here by arguing the contrary. I'm writing this from mobile so hopefully the organization isn't too awful.

Regarding ice cream's niches over the other ice types in this tier, mentioned are its powerful freeze dry, speed tier, and bulk. The problems I see with these arguements:

1. Freeze dry isn't even that relevant seeing how Aurorus and Jynx both have coverage options that suit the same purpose of hitting lanturn. LO earth power and psyshock both 2hko after rocks respectively. While freeze dry maybe decent for pelipper and mantine, neither are very common in this meta as we have an abundance of hazard control.

2. Vanilluxe's speed tier is okay at best. It misses out on the important base 80 mark which really hurts it. Relevant pokemon that under speed such as ludi and wrath also have ways around vanilluxe in swift swim and vacuum wave (in wrath's case). Vanilluxe also is often forced to run modest in order to sustain its power.

3. Vanilluxe's bulk isn't bad, but ice typing is ice typing after all. Because of its speed tier, its often forced to take hits, on top of sr weakness, its really not bulky at all.

Really the only important niche I can think of is explosion which is nice to get off a final heavy hit.

On top of the points I addressed above, vanilluxe is a rather one dimsional Mon, basically functioning as an all out attacker. You can run automize, but it doesn't really have many great coverage options to clean up late game.

Both Jynx and Aurorus have much more utility and can perform multiple roles. Aurorus can set up rocks, run specs, and even be physical. Jynx has access to the coveted lovely kiss, can function as an anti-lead, or wallbreak with nasty plot.

There's a reason why vanilluxe gets no usage on the ladder. Feel free to refute any of the points I made.

1. I think you're missing the point of Freeze-Dry. It's not just to hit Lanturn, its to hit every Water-type with a move that they're meant to resist. Having the ability to do that faster than other Ice-types is huge when you consider the speed tier of common Freeze-Dry targets: Ludicolo, Samurott, Prinplup, Kabutops, Poliwrath. Granted Jynx has the ability to outspeed all of those and deal with them in its own way, it often needs to be boosted to secure an OHKO or rely on Lovely Kiss to deal with these Pokemon. The whole point about Pelipper and Mantine is moot because Ice Beam hits those neutrally, again the whole point of Freeze-Dry is to hit targets that resist Ice Beam super effectively.

2. Yeah Vanilluxe misses out on positive natured base 80s, but those aren't all that common. At first glance, most of the things in base 80 run neutral natures, with the only outstanding one that needs to be running +Spe being Colbur offensive Mesprit. I really don't think Vanilluxe needs to be running Modest for the record, in fact looking back on it I think the speed tier is absolutely perfect to be running +Spe in this metagame.

3. If you're allowing Vanilluxe to take hits, you're using it wrong (it shouldn't be coming in on things that are faster than it). I don't understand this argument at all, yeah Ice-typing sucks, but you're not using this Pokemon for any defensive purpose. And for the record the only Ice-type I think is splashable is Piloswine, mainly due to its typing not being complete shit. Jynx is incredibly tough to build with, which I'm sure anyone who's used it can attest to. I typically dislike building with Aurorus because it automatically gives you a Rock-type Pokemon that cannot deal with Normal- or Flying-type attackers, so you're either forced to compound weaknesses with another Rock-type or run a more niche defensive mon to supplement it.

4. Explosion isn't even that great of a niche, you're much better off running Ice Shard in the last slot for situations where you need to pick off Pokemon that outspeed you like Archeops, Swellow, etc.

5. One dimensional mons aren't automatically bad mons, I mean look at Tauros the thing runs the same set 90% of the time, that being Life Orb attacker, and its S rank. Occasionally you'll see people running CB or CS but they're just plain rare and often inferior to LO.

6. Yeah Aurorus has the ability to run different sets effectively, but you still deal with most variants the same way, and different sets by no means make up for its lackluster speed tier and defensive typing. The thing is a wallbreaker and thats about it, I've had success with SR Aurorus but I generally feel like any turn you're not firing off a Hyper Voice, Freeze-Dry, or Blizzard you're wasting a turn. Physical sets are good, but in general are easier to prepare for and lose most value after they've been revealed.

7. The reason Vanilluxe gets little to no usage on ladder is because people look at it and say "hey, look its the ice cream cone! this mon is shit haha!" it doesn't help that it doesnt bring anything to the table defensively and most users struggle to build effective hyper offense teams with mons that require much skill to use. Jynx is one of the biggest threats to the metagame right now, but no one runs it because its so difficult to build with, that shouldnt be a reason to say its any less of a threat.

All that being said I'm still open to Vanilluxe dropping, I just don't think those arguments are ones that are going to sway public opinion.

 

[Aladyyn]

Speaking of Freeze Dry users, I'd like to nominate Articuno for B+. The ice bird just straight up dismantles common balance cores like they're butter, there are like 5 viable things that can actually switch into Hurricane and Freeze Dry and even then Cuno can cheese confusions if you're a haxing goon. It also has a decent speed tier for what it wants to do, great special bulk even uninvested, reliable recovery and possibly useful and unique typing. Yea it sucks that Articuno is so weak to Stealth Rock but it has very good synergy with some of our best hazard removers such as Claydol and Sandslash so it's pretty easy to nullify this flaw. The mons that are in B- are all significantly worse than Articuno so I think a rise is warranted.

 

[toreutic]

1. I think you're missing the point of Freeze-Dry. It's not just to hit Lanturn, its to hit every Water-type with a move that they're meant to resist. Having the ability to do that faster than other Ice-types is huge when you consider the speed tier of common Freeze-Dry targets: Ludicolo, Samurott, Prinplup, Kabutops, Poliwrath. Granted Jynx has the ability to outspeed all of those and deal with them in its own way, it often needs to be boosted to secure an OHKO or rely on Lovely Kiss to deal with these Pokemon. The whole point about Pelipper and Mantine is moot because Ice Beam hits those neutrally, again the whole point of Freeze-Dry is to hit targets that resist Ice Beam super effectively.

2. Yeah Vanilluxe misses out on positive natured base 80s, but those aren't all that common. At first glance, most of the things in base 80 run neutral natures, with the only outstanding one that needs to be running +Spe being Colbur offensive Mesprit. I really don't think Vanilluxe needs to be running Modest for the record, in fact looking back on it I think the speed tier is absolutely perfect to be running +Spe in this metagame.

3. If you're allowing Vanilluxe to take hits, you're using it wrong (it shouldn't be coming in on things that are faster than it). I don't understand this argument at all, yeah Ice-typing sucks, but you're not using this Pokemon for any defensive purpose. And for the record the only Ice-type I think is splashable is Piloswine, mainly due to its typing not being complete shit. Jynx is incredibly tough to build with, which I'm sure anyone who's used it can attest to. I typically dislike building with Aurorus because it automatically gives you a Rock-type Pokemon that cannot deal with Normal- or Flying-type attackers, so you're either forced to compound weaknesses with another Rock-type or run a more niche defensive mon to supplement it.

4. Explosion isn't even that great of a niche, you're much better off running Ice Shard in the last slot for situations where you need to pick off Pokemon that outspeed you like Archeops, Swellow, etc.

5. One dimensional mons aren't automatically bad mons, I mean look at Tauros the thing runs the same set 90% of the time, that being Life Orb attacker, and its S rank. Occasionally you'll see people running CB or CS but they're just plain rare and often inferior to LO.

6. Yeah Aurorus has the ability to run different sets effectively, but you still deal with most variants the same way, and different sets by no means make up for its lackluster speed tier and defensive typing. The thing is a wallbreaker and thats about it, I've had success with SR Aurorus but I generally feel like any turn you're not firing off a Hyper Voice, Freeze-Dry, or Blizzard you're wasting a turn. Physical sets are good, but in general are easier to prepare for and lose most value after they've been revealed.

7. The reason Vanilluxe gets little to no usage on ladder is because people look at it and say "hey, look its the ice cream cone! this mon is shit haha!" it doesn't help that it doesnt bring anything to the table defensively and most users struggle to build effective hyper offense teams with mons that require much skill to use. Jynx is one of the biggest threats to the metagame right now, but no one runs it because its so difficult to build with, that shouldnt be a reason to say its any less of a threat.

All that being said I'm still open to Vanilluxe dropping, I just don't think those arguments are ones that are going to sway public opinion.

1. Many of the examples you give are very valid and I agree freeze dry does make more sense.

2. While the issue of whether to run netutral or +spe natures for certain mons is another topic for debate, I still believe Vanilluxe's speed tier is still pretty mediocre. Being outsped by most offensive mons in the meta is never good. One of the reasons why certain base 80's just as shiftry and kabu can afford to run neutral natures is because they have powerful priority that can be boosted with SD. In vanilluxe's case, like you said, ice shard is only useful for picking off certain weakened off targets and does pitiful damage outside of that.

3. I wasn't really saying Vanilluxe should be allowed to take hits, but it's more that likely that it'll often be forced to take hits because of its speed, taking away from the fact that it has okay natural bulk. I'm arguing that having slightly better defense in comparison to Jynx/Cryognal doesn't make it any more viable. I personally believe that sash Jynx is pretty spammable on teams, but I'm not the best builder, nor is that the issue at hand.

4. I didn't say it was that great, but it's just one of the small things people may point out it has over its icy brethren.

5. While this is true, it's one-dimensional on top of having many other faults. Tauros can afford to be predictable because simply how good it is. This is not the case in ice cream's case. A reason why some mons are viable/better than others is due to how versatile they can be and be unpredictable in that sense (samu, mespirit, kfc, etc.)

6. Well technically Aurorus has access to rock polish so it can patch up its speed somehow. I don't really understand the argument here. Just because aurorus can't perform certain roles as well as others doesn't mean it isn't viable/better in general to vanilluxe.

7. I find this silly. I don't think looks of a mon have ever swayed any serious player from using it or not, and this thread is a place for discussion for experienced players. Isn't hard to build with a contributing factor to why it should drop? Jynx in comparison is much harder to prepare for which is why it's so good.


With everything being said, I'm glad we can agree on vanilluxe dropping.

 

[Blast]

2. While the issue of whether to run netutral or +spe natures for certain mons is another topic for debate, I still believe Vanilluxe's speed tier is still pretty mediocre. Being outsped by most offensive mons in the meta is never good. One of the reasons why certain base 80's just as shiftry and kabu can afford to run neutral natures is because they have powerful priority that can be boosted with SD. In vanilluxe's case, like you said, ice shard is only useful for picking off certain weakened off targets and does pitiful damage outside of that.

I mean, sure it's true Vanilluxe's Speed tier hinders it, but its purpose isn't to destroy offense. It outspeeds just about everything it needs to (which is almost every defensive Pokemon in the tier, as well as some offensive mons like Samurott and Ludicolo, as well as having priority (and yes, it is weak, but again it does what it needs to). I also think you're underestimating how much Ice Shard helps Vanilluxe at least be functional against offensive teams; at the very least I'd argue it does about as much as Life Orb Jynx or Snow Warning Aurorus. Vanilluxe can pick off stuff like Lilligant, Vivillon, and Archeops which are all huge threats to the more offensive teams that it's usually on.

3. I wasn't really saying Vanilluxe should be allowed to take hits, but it's more that likely that it'll often be forced to take hits because of its speed, taking away from the fact that it has okay natural bulk. I'm arguing that having slightly better defense in comparison to Jynx/Cryognal doesn't make it any more viable. I personally believe that sash Jynx is pretty spammable on teams, but I'm not the best builder, nor is that the issue at hand.

Tanking priority and Pursuit is the main reason Vanilluxe's Defense matters. It's obviously not going to enjoy Tauros's Rock Climb or something, but being able to switch out against something like Skuntank without getting ~completely~ fucked is pretty important.

5. While this is true, it's one-dimensional on top of having many other faults. Tauros can afford to be predictable because simply how good it is. This is not the case in ice cream's case. A reason why some mons are viable/better than others is due to how versatile they can be and be unpredictable in that sense (samu, mespirit, kfc, etc.)

Just because a mon faces competition doesn't mean it's bad at what it does. It doesn't matter if Vanilluxe is predictable or not if it still wrecks almost everything with Freeze Dry + Ice Beam, which it does.

6. Well technically Aurorus has access to rock polish so it can patch up its speed somehow. I don't really understand the argument here. Just because aurorus can't perform certain roles as well as others doesn't mean it isn't viable/better in general to vanilluxe.

Yes but Vanilluxe still has a distinct niche from other Ice-types which other posts have already gone over, and none of Aurorus's or Jynx's sets can do quite what it does.

7. I find this silly. I don't think looks of a mon have ever swayed any serious player from using it or not, and this thread is a place for discussion for experienced players. Isn't hard to build with a contributing factor to why it should drop? Jynx in comparison is much harder to prepare for which is why it's so good.

The whole "ice cream mon" thing was just an exaggeration lol, but usage should never be used as a reason to drop anyway. Why would Barbaracle and Carracosta be so high on the rankings when they're PU by usage?

And I guess this last one might be subjective, but I think Vanilluxe is just better / more splashable than the vast majority of mons in C+ right now, especially Cryogonal. The only way I might support Vanilluxe dropping is if that does too, and even then I still think Vanilluxe is less niche than Zebstrika or Mr. Mime or whatever.

 

[Disjunction]

OK I promised a post defending a couple mons but I really only have the patience for one big thing tonight

I might be rehashing a number of points Kiyo brought up, but I'd rather have all of my thoughts out on the topic instead of just censoring myself. I'll do my best to address some of the pressing counter arguments first.

1. Magmortar is slow- Against offensive teams, yes, Magmortar's speed tier is lacking which leaves it open to being revenge killed by several offensive threats, such as Archeops, Tauros, Jolly Sawk, and Kabutops to name a few off the top of my head. However, Magmortar's matchup vs Balance and Defensive teams is nearly unrivaled because of its complete lack of counters. The only viable mons that can comfortably switch into Fire Blast / Thunderbolt / Focus Blast / Earthquake are Hariyama, Grumpig, and maybe Sliggoo (if you count this as viable right now). Once Mag gets in on any defensive core, it becomes a steep uphill battle for your opponent on figuring out how to keep something from dropping. With Balance being king, it's not rare Mag finds that free switch in. Also, its speed tier isn't so terrible that it misses out on important benchmarks like Mesprit. And, as previously mentioned, Magmortar has the ability to run Flame Charge to great effect, setting up on death fodder or special attackers that struggle to touch Mag, such as Mismagius and Lilligant.
2. Magmortar is physically frail- Yes, if there was any defining flaw of Magmortar, it would probably be this. Magmortar's subpar defense coupled with its mediocre defensive typing have it forced out in the face of physical attackers as revenge killers or double switches. Not going to try and play off a defining negative of Magmortar as nothing, but you have 5 other members to support a defensive flaw of an offensive Pokemon. It's not the hardest thing in the world to cover for Ground-, Rock-, and Water-type attackers while maintaining some hazard control.
3. Magmortar is weak to priority- I mean, aside from the fact that this is basically true of every offensive Pokemon, it's not like Magmortar is a feather in the wind that just drops to a stray Mach Punch or Fake Out. Sure, Aqua Jet mons and Shiftry give it a ton of shit, but I think it's unfair to make a sweeping generalization overstating how much priority really does to Mag. If you'd like a mon that's truly weak to basically every form of priority in the tier, I'll direct you to Archeops.
4. Magmortar relies on unreliable STABs/Coverage- Yes, unfortunately Fire Blast has a 15% chance to miss. That's 5% higher of a chance than Ice Beam has to freeze. If you'd like to be safer, Flamethrower is an option that doesn't miss and still grabs plenty of OHKOes. Yes, Focus Blast has a much higher capacity to miss and it's unfortunate because Focus Blast is your best tool to hit Regirock. However, if you ARE afraid of missing Focus Blast, you can opt for the safer Hidden Power Grass. You lose that coverage on Regirock, but you still hit Rhydon, the much more popular Specially bulky Rock-type, just as hard and with the bonus of being able to OHKO Quagsire as it comes in after you've knocked something out.

Hopefully I didn't miss anyone's points! I'd like it if I could get my point across as efficiently as possible here.

In any case, I'm going to move onto Magmortar's pros.

1. Magmortar isn't like any other wallbreaker in the tier. Sawk has plenty of hard checks, maybe a counter or two, and its cool ability in Sturdy. Magmortar has, at best, 2 counters and one hard check. When I was in the process of writing up the checks and counters for the Magmortar analysis, it became common practice to write "... only checks Magmortar if ..." or "... can switch into Magmortar on anything but ..." Its perfect coverage has the capacity to break every single common defensive core in the tier right now. Magmortar's presence just forces your opponent out of his/her otherwise optimal, comfortable plays just to keep this thing off the field.
2. Adequate speed lets Magmortar rise above plenty of the pitfalls other "unwallable" wallbreakers, such as Beheeyem and Aurorus, fall into by being outsped by common defensive or slow offensive threats. Max Speed Magmortar is plenty threatening, even though it sacrifices a lot of bulk, because of the important benchmarks it passes with its nice base 83 Speed tier.
3. Magmortar's incredible versatility is something people haven't mentioned. Yes, AV is the best set, but Ebelt/LOrb are equally threatening because of the ability to run non-attacking moves, such as Substitute and Will-O-Wisp; a Sunny Day set makes Fire Blast even more powerful and lets you abuse Solarbeam (since a couple of you are afraid of missing Focus Blast); Flame Charge, as mentioned before, patches Magmortar's match up against offense; and Psychic, while not the most optimal moveslot for Magmortar in this meta, can completely invalidate Magmortar's only hard check in the meta right now.
4. Everyone talks a lot about Magmortar's poor defensive merits, but never acknowledge the utility it can provide to a team with AV. Checking Pyroar, essentially every Offensive and Defensive Grass-type in the tier, and soft checking most Freeze-Dry Ice-types. Additionally, the lesser known max HP Assault Vest set is much harder to break down than what most of the 104 HP ones are.

Ultimately, I think Magmortar is more splashable than people are giving it credit for. Its great matchup versus Balance, the most popular team archetype right now, and the number of niches it fills both defensively and offensively are more than enough to place it in S.

I was watching a pretty shit anime while I was writing this up, so sorry if it doesn't flow well. I think I got the gist of everything I wanted to express here.

 

[TheTraininator]

And what anime was that? Come on, don't leave us hanging.

Dis edit: it wasn't a real anime, it was RWBY

Train edit: oh shit called out

all respects to Monty Oum, RIP

 

[Dentricos]

Just a few thoughts Ive had on the viability of certain mons.

Kecleon B- ---> B

This fucker is annoying af at the moment. Its unique combo of moves allows it to... I dont even know I just find it good lol

Aurorus A- ---> A+

This I have more to say for. Both its refrigerate raw power and snow warning blizzard sash/sturdy/weather breaking set are extreamely effective in this meta. I think its comparable to sawk in some ways in terms of it being one of the most unstoppable wallbreakers in the tier. Not only that but itis the perfect combo with any physical attack as it can basically OHKO any physical wall people bring out. The problem with it is obviously the fact that its typing doesnt allow it to have any backup use as bulky offense but quite honestly its one of the most consistantly threatening mon that we have. 58 speed tier is obv not gr8 but currently we have many things at 50 making it actually quite fun. Ice types r so fun rn and I would argue better then usual.

Calcs:

Calcs

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 226-266 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 195-231 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Refrigerate Aurorus Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 382-452 (92.2 - 109.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Snow Warning Aurorus Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 359-424 (86.7 - 102.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Freeze-Dry vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 242-289 (60.3 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Probopass????: 328-390 (101.5 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Flash Cannon?????? vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 208-247 (52 - 61.7%)

Articuno B- ---> B+

Backing up aladyyn's nom ful Cuno effectively runs life orb, freeze dry, hurricane, roost, hp fighting/substitute. 85 speed tier is fun af and it hits fun amount of pokemon that we use. Here are calcs:

Calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 152-179 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 315-374 (73.4 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 40 HP / 208+ SpD Lanturn: 218-257 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 413-486 (116.6 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aurorus: 296-354 (76.4 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Hidden Power Fighting vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Probopass: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Zebstrika C+ ---> B-
Raichu C ---> B-

These (non choiced) high speed tier electrics are extreamely good right now. Zebstrika has the advantage over raichu that it consistently outspeeds tauros and cheops where for raichu its a 50/50. Raichu on the other hand is a lot more annoying in terms of its ability to volt switch/knock off and generally do high damage to many mons. The best stops to raichu all seem to hate getting knocked off which creates more opportunities for oher mons. Zebstrika cant be irrelevated by grass types with its access to overheat XD Both of them are able to gain an advantage volt blocking.

Calcs

4 Atk Expert Belt Raichu Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 108 Def Rotom: 168-199 (55.2 - 65.4%)
252 SpA Expert Belt Raichu Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 514-605 (124.1 - 146.1%)
252 SpA Expert Belt Raichu Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 312-370 (75.3 - 89.3%) (a little prior damage does the trick)
252 SpA Expert Belt Raichu Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 221-262 (56 - 66.4%)
252 SpA Expert Belt Raichu Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scyther: 259-305 (92.1 - 108.5%)252 SpA Expert Belt Raichu Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Golurk: 293-346 (76.7 - 90.5%)
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Overheat vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Vileplume: 289-341 (81.8 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 192-229 (46.3 - 55.3%)
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 312-369 (75.3 - 89.1%)
252 SpA Expert Belt Raichu Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 461-547 (117 - 138.8%)
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 354-416 (89.8 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Kecleon B- ---> B

Ha! You thought I would not back up my kecleon suggestion! Alright so the programed response about pup is that it doesnt work bt ngl I've been harmed by a few pup kecleons because they r so damn bulky and have access to drain punch.

Kecleon Set

Kecleon @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Protean
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Aerial Ace / Double-edge
- Power-Up Punch / Shadow Sneak

Keep in mind in adition to this set kecleon often runs grass knot/fire blast life orb to lure the crap out of quag plume and seed. It can run stealth rocks with coverage to wreck xatu (ice punch/shadow sneak/rock slide).

Assuming it runs the first set you have to think of it as a fighting type. Aerial ace is nice to hit plume / fighting types that hurt kecleon. However it's a very weak move in comparison to others which is why double edge could be perfered. In that case shadow sneak is nice so it can change to ghost type and be temporarily immune to fighting types (and normal types). Aerial ace is only nice for the se damage and protean at once. I feel like protean somehow adds to the viability of pup but that might just be because I have more problems with kecleon then kanga XD idk.

All of my suggestions are based on how I've seen these mons perform in the current meta XD Also I wrote this from phone so plz dont judge too much...

 

[astroboy]

Kecleon B- ---> B

This fucker is annoying af at the moment. Its unique combo of moves allows it to... I dont even know I just find it good lol

if you "dont even know" then why are you nomming it

Aurorus A- ---> A+

This I have more to say for. Both its refrigerate raw power and snow warning blizzard sash/sturdy/weather breaking set are extreamely effective in this meta. I think its comparable to sawk in some ways in terms of it being one of the most unstoppable wallbreakers in the tier. Not only that but itis the perfect combo with any physical attack as it can basically OHKO any physical wall people bring out. The problem with it is obviously the fact that its typing doesnt allow it to have any backup use as bulky offense but quite honestly its one of the most consistantly threatening mon that we have. 58 speed tier is obv not gr8 but currently we have many things at 50 making it actually quite fun. Ice types r so fun rn and I would argue better then usual.

Calcs:

Calcs

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 226-266 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 195-231 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Refrigerate Aurorus Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 382-452 (92.2 - 109.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Snow Warning Aurorus Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 359-424 (86.7 - 102.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Freeze-Dry vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 242-289 (60.3 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Probopass????: 328-390 (101.5 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Flash Cannon?????? vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 208-247 (52 - 61.7%)

strongly disagree. too matchup reliant, struggles against offense teams, god fucking awful defensive typing, increased usage of of its checks (pilo and yama), and definitely not on the same level as other a+ mons like archeops or audino. you fail to mention how aurorus is really hard to fit on a team without setting out to build around it, due to its shit defensive typing, the increased usage of its biggest checks (pilo and yama), the balance teams it once broke easily taking a more offensive turn. like it has 0 switchins, yeah, but neither does golurk lol. i suppose you could argue that it has some defensive utility in being able to check swellow and rotoms, however its quite a poor one considerint its easily worn down. you also neglect to mention how anything has changed for aurorus to make it better.
also why are some calcs specs and others are life orb.

Articuno B- ---> B+

Backing up aladyyn's nom ful Cuno effectively runs life orb, freeze dry, hurricane, roost, hp fighting/substitute. 85 speed tier is fun af and it hits fun amount of pokemon that we use. Here are calcs:

Calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 152-179 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 315-374 (73.4 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 40 HP / 208+ SpD Lanturn: 218-257 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 413-486 (116.6 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aurorus: 296-354 (76.4 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Hidden Power Fighting vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Probopass: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

no opinion

Kecleon B- ---> B

Ha! You thought I would not back up my kecleon suggestion! Alright so the programed response about pup is that it doesnt work bt ngl I've been harmed by a few pup kecleons because they r so damn bulky and have access to drain punch.

Kecleon Set

Kecleon @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Protean
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Aerial Ace / Double-edge
- Power-Up Punch / Shadow Sneak

Keep in mind in adition to this set kecleon often runs grass knot/fire blast life orb to lure the crap out of quag plume and seed. It can run stealth rocks with coverage to wreck xatu (ice punch/shadow sneak/rock slide).

Assuming it runs the first set you have to think of it as a fighting type. Aerial ace is nice to hit plume / fighting types that hurt kecleon. However it's a very weak move in comparison to others which is why double edge could be perfered. In that case shadow sneak is nice so it can change to ghost type and be temporarily immune to fighting types (and normal types). Aerial ace is only nice for the se damage and protean at once. I feel like protean somehow adds to the viability of pup but that might just be because I have more problems with kecleon then kanga XD idk.
[/hide]

again, what has changed? i mean, if i were to make a case for kecleon rising itd probably mention how the advent of the mixed set takes advantage of the high usage of seed/costa/plume/rhydon, making it a great partner for tons of physical mons, particularly kanga or samurott. but i really dont really see what youre getting at or what reasoning you really have other than "i like this mon it hits hard give it a bump"

All of my suggestions are based on how I've seen these mons perform in the current meta XD Also I wrote this from phone so plz dont judge too much...

honestly if u did that wall of calcs on mobile id be genuinely impressed

e: fixed tags

 

[Dentricos]

if you "dont even know" then why are you nomming it

strongly disagree. too matchup reliant, struggles against offense teams, god fucking awful defensive typing, increased usage of of its checks (pilo and yama), and definitely not on the same level as other a+ mons like archeops or audino. you fail to mention how aurorus is really hard to fit on a team without setting out to build around it, due to its shit defensive typing, the increased usage of its biggest checks (pilo and yama), the balance teams it once broke easily taking a more offensive turn. like it has 0 switchins, yeah, but neither does golurk lol. i suppose you could argue that it has some defensive utility in being able to check swellow and rotoms, however its quite a poor one considerint its easily worn down. you also neglect to mention how anything has changed for aurorus to make it better.
also why are some calcs specs and others are life orb.

no opinion

again, what has changed? i mean, if i were to make a case for kecleon rising itd probably mention how the advent of the mixed set takes advantage of the high usage of seed/costa/plume/rhydon, making it a great partner for tons of physical mons, particularly kanga or samurott. but i really dont really see what youre getting at or what reasoning you really have other than "i like this mon it hits hard give it a bump"


honestly if u did that wall of calcs on mobile id be genuinely impressed

e: fixed tags

Wall of calcs was indead on mobile :} and the me not knowing why to recomend kecleon to move up was a joke which I clarified later. I've talked with a few other people and the consensous seems to be that it's p gud rn and I gave the general idea of how it functions effectively.

I definetly wouldn't hold A+ to be on archeops/megadino level considering those are easily mons that could be put into S. When compared to stuff like gurdurr and klinklang I feel aurorous's easily puts it into A+ considering it's the second best wall breaker under sawk. Snow warning aurorus is amazing vs HO since it breaks weather/ sturdy/sashs.

 

[The Swan]

Electivire B ----->B+! As far as NU Pokes go, I always find Electivire underrated. First, the elephant in the room; that attack stat. Rivaling even OU Pokemon like Garchomp, TTar, and even Metagross, Electivire can hit like a truck, especially since it doesn't have to be locked into a move, because of its excellent coverage. Able to hit 13 different types super effectively with certain sets, and expert belt adding even more power to this, oftentimes Electivire doesn't even need to worry about having STAB (wild charge still is nice to have, though). But it isn't just limited to expert belt; it also serves as a nice revenge killer when holding choice scarf. Often, the biggest issue I hear about Electivire is its, I'll admit, meh defenses. But you could also slap on an assault vest and it can start taking hits like a champ, surviving Fire Blasts from Magmortar with no investment needed. Choice Scarf Haunter? No problem. Offensive Vileplume? No problem. I'm not trying to suggest that Electivire is some God of Pokemon, but it has versatility, making it able to shake things up, and its ability in Motor Drive can often lead to a clean sweep. Please consider the presence that Electivire can bring on to any battle, and why opponents should always have it in the back of their head when building a team.

 

[WhiteDMist]

Electivire B ----->B+! As far as NU Pokes go, I always find Electivire underrated. First, the elephant in the room; that attack stat. Rivaling even OU Pokemon like Garchomp, TTar, and even Metagross, Electivire can hit like a truck, especially since it doesn't have to be locked into a move, because of its excellent coverage. Able to hit 13 different types super effectively with certain sets, and expert belt adding even more power to this, oftentimes Electivire doesn't even need to worry about having STAB (wild charge still is nice to have, though). But it isn't just limited to expert belt; it also serves as a nice revenge killer when holding choice scarf. Often, the biggest issue I hear about Electivire is its, I'll admit, meh defenses. But you could also slap on an assault vest and it can start taking hits like a champ, surviving Fire Blasts from Magmortar with no investment needed. Choice Scarf Haunter? No problem. Offensive Vileplume? No problem. I'm not trying to suggest that Electivire is some God of Pokemon, but it has versatility, making it able to shake things up, and its ability in Motor Drive can often lead to a clean sweep. Please consider the presence that Electivire can bring on to any battle, and why opponents should always have it in the back of their head when building a team.

You might want to also address the mediocre base power of most of Electivire's moves, which does hinder its otherwise excellent offensive stats. Also address its poor base Speed, as you are either stuck with a Scarf and lose out on its excellent coverage, or have to settle for a Pokemon in the rather crowded base 95 Speed tier.

EDIT:Just fyi, I have no opinion on its ranking. But when someone argues for a change in a Pokemon's ranking, they cannot ignore the faults of the Pokemon in question either. Instead, they should be explaining why the faults do not reduce the Pokemon's viability.

 

[Winter's Howl]

Electivire B ----->B+! As far as NU Pokes go, I always find Electivire underrated. First, the elephant in the room; that attack stat. Rivaling even OU Pokemon like Garchomp, TTar, and even Metagross, Electivire can hit like a truck, especially since it doesn't have to be locked into a move, because of its excellent coverage. Able to hit 13 different types super effectively with certain sets, and expert belt adding even more power to this, oftentimes Electivire doesn't even need to worry about having STAB (wild charge still is nice to have, though). But it isn't just limited to expert belt; it also serves as a nice revenge killer when holding choice scarf. Often, the biggest issue I hear about Electivire is its, I'll admit, meh defenses. But you could also slap on an assault vest and it can start taking hits like a champ, surviving Fire Blasts from Magmortar with no investment needed. Choice Scarf Haunter? No problem. Offensive Vileplume? No problem. I'm not trying to suggest that Electivire is some God of Pokemon, but it has versatility, making it able to shake things up, and its ability in Motor Drive can often lead to a clean sweep. Please consider the presence that Electivire can bring on to any battle, and why opponents should always have it in the back of their head when building a team.

As noted in WhiteDMist's post, the main problem that the majority of the community has with Evire is that it has to rely on low base power moves for coverage, which its high attack stat doesn't remedy, seeing as it can't afford to go adamant/modest in the crowded 90-95 speed tiers. So let's get to the rest of the post. Assault Vest Evire is not going to get it to B+, simply because it extends the aforementioned issue infinitely. Now you are making Evire even weaker due to foregoing a boosting item, for an assault vest, which really doesn't help Evire beat its checks. Evire needs to muscle through its checks, most of which retaliate with physical moves, rendering an assault vest useless (see all bulky grounds in the tier). It isn't a matter of needing bulk, as Evire is an offensive Pokemon that can use a respectable speed tier to challenge teams. Motor Drive is also really not the better all purpose ability. Vital Spirit makes Evire a sleep absorber, meaning you don't have to lose a wink of sleep over being prone to getting bagged by sleep. But even that isn't justification enough for its rise. The only way Evire is muscling through its checks is with the special set, which is not really even a lure anymore because the meta is aware that Evire needs this. And even that set fails to net some crucial KOs. Evire is still underwhelming.

 

[tmacbalanced]

Argument on why Mega Audino should rise from A+ to S rank - So I was told that I should go more into detail on why Mega Audino should be S & I'll do my best on this discussion. Now, some players do agree that Mega Audino should be taken into consideration when teambuilding, not only that but, it can be very splashable since it has quite a few sets.

Specially Defensive - This set can help take of Magmortar, Samurott, Mespirit, other special attackers, even bullky pokemon that don't very hard. It can sponge off status conditions with heal bell & be used as a pivot with "Regenerator" if you choose not to Mega Evolve it too quickly. Not only that, but it can run Encore for pokemon that try to set up on it. Now, this is very useful because if Xatu is calm minding up on you, you can switch to Regirock (a good partner for Mega Audino) & stone edge the Xatu or if you think they'll switch because they don't want to waste their sweeper too soon (depending on the situation) you can t-wave on the next incoming threat. This can also be used against Mespirit but instead of going to Regirock, you can go to Vileplume and put it to sleep or whatever else that wants to switch in (so long as they don't have a grass type on the team or a grass type hasn't fainted yet or a sap sipper like Bouffalant). Now, it does have some noticeable flaws such as Skuntank being able to shut it down with taunt; it's also set-up bait for Rhydon (whether it's dual dance or Stealth Rocks/Roar), Pawniard, Garbodor, & Klingklang. Though, for the hazard situation, we do have a lot more reliable spinners/defoggers. Rhydon can be taken care of by Torterra who can be a good partner with Mega Audino as it can also take care of poison of types such as Garbodor & Skuntank (if it's not running fire blast), as well as, Kling Klang. So, this set does require some support but not too much. This set really works though if you feel like using this on a team with set-up sweeper that needs wish/heal bell support due to constant switching &/or if it gets roared out & takes too much hazards damage.

Defensive Calm Mind - This set is most notably known as the "CroDino" set (if you're using Calm Mind/ Dazzling Gleam/ Rest/ Sleep Talk) & is probably the most watched out set for when it comes to building (the set out of all three, not when it comes to other pokemon). Now, this set is such a threat by itself but, it's the pokemon that can work with it that are more of a threat & thus are probably the most dangerous together; Sawk & Magmortar. They take care of the pesky Steel types, poison types, Pyroar (taunt is annoying for Mega Audino), walls, & other sweepers (Magmortar deals with Lilligant & Sawk can use it's "Sturdy" ability if hazards are off the field). What's even better is that you can use the ability "Regenerator" as a pivot before Mega Evolving so you can go into Sawk or Magmortar on the predicted switch-in of a poison type, steel type, etc. & it's tough to find switch-ins for both Sawk & Magmortar (sometimes it even depends on the set). You can also use wish if Magmortar is suffering from coming in too many times on Stealth Rocks (provided if you're using pro-wish instead of rest-talk) & can take toxics, t-waves, & will-o-wisps for Sawk then just rest it all off later. Mega Audino can even take on Sawk, so long as it doesn't switch in on an attack. Mega Audino can also set-up on many pokemon in this meta, such as pokemon that don't 2HKO it, like special Samurott, Tauros, Shiftry, Lanturn, Hitmonchan, Regirock, etc. What makes this set so good, is that it is very flexible towards the meta & can be very lenient for it's team mates, whether it'd be taking hits or status' (so long as it's rest-talk).

Offensive Calm Mind - Very good at luring but can be easily worn down. Not really a fan of this set but, it can work. This is just an all-out attacker that is slow, has a good movepool, a handy ability before mega-evolving, & is very bulky. This set can still have trouble with Skuntank though.
252+ SpA Mega Audino Fire Blast vs. 24 HP / 108 SpD Skuntank: 121-143 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- 45.7% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
228+ Atk Skuntank Poison Jab vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Mega Audino: 186-218 (47.6 - 55.8%) -- 78.9% chance to 2HKO
This set can work really well since a lot of people will expect the "Crodino" set.

So these sets can even make opponents wonder what set your using unless your team is obvious but even then some people take whacky risks that make people upset. My point is, Mega Audino is S rank worthy due to flexibility, has the best synergy, & can be a tad centralizing to team building sometimes.

 

[Adaire]

B- --> B I agree with Hootie completly here and even then some more. Vanilluxe is a very good pokemon in the tier right now, as are almost all offensive ice types, having the strongest freeze dry of all and being the fastest make it a brilliant mon that not many teams are prepared for. While not having hurricane like articuno or hyper voice like aurorus, this mon still seperates its self from those two that it deserves B. also when are articuno and lapras going to be raised?

C --> C+ This thing is a very under rated threat, it has a very diverse movepool which lets it hit so much incredibly hard, it can hit half the tier for super effective damage with moves like leaf storm, gunk shot, focus blast, knock off, acrobatics and superpower which makes for an incredible set for phsyical, special or mixed. Also simisage is not outclassed by shiftry because of higher speed, higher special attack, being able to take a signal beam, and having overgrow which makes for a incredibly powerful last ditch attack.

C+ --> B- Supporting Dentricos Zebstrika is incredible right now, having one of the highest speed tiers and a pretty good movepool to back, it can really be a problem to certain teams. Being able to outspeed even the fastest mons like archeops, pyroar, and floatzel, it makes for a great pokemon to hit teams hard. The only thing holding zebstrika back is its lackluster special attack but even then, you can weaken zebstrika checks with volt switch. Zebstrika also appreciates the lack of lanturns there once was, while lanturn is still common, it isn't nearly as common as it use to be before. If you need proof of how good zebstrika is in this meta, look at Realistic Waters replays, he uses zebra religiously lol.

A- --> A I actually am in love with thing. Such a solid pokemon to use on teams that does so many things, it is one of the best checks to the ice types in the tier being able to eat essentially anything with thick fat (also helpful for tanking a fire move if need be). It can get rocks up reliably, provide priority, and even be a good offensive choice. Also shiny piloswine is a lemon.

C- --> Unranked/D Made a team with this earlier this week thinking it would be a cool offensive mon, turned out it wasn't :(. While protean is nice and t-spikes are cool, those really aren't worthy of making this mon C-. Contrary to greninja, frogadier is actually not that fast at all, 97 speed fails to outspeed things it would love to be able to out speed and even the things it can, it is quite weak when you get a hit off. It also like just dies from anything which isn't very helpful when you are constantly switching your types with protean. T-spikes while make for a cool looking lead, aren't very good at all since there are much better pokemon to get t-spikes up while having other value at the same time.

 

[comrade83]

I feel as if Frogadier should be higher ranked to at least B because it has a lot of capabilities, for example T-Spikes and Tuant it can wallbreak extremely well. It has way more coverage than most people think and it even gets protean and can use that well.

 

[Brawlfest]

I feel as if Frogadier should be higher ranked to at least B because it has a lot of capabilities, for example T-Spikes and Tuant it can wallbreak extremely well. It has way more coverage than most people think and it even gets protean and can use that well.

I'm going to have to disagree. Even with protean its underwhelmingly weak, being required to run Gunk Shot to even have a chance at getting past common bulky pokemon such as Mega Audino, Hariyama, and Lanturn. And when it does, it takes a lot away from its investment in its amazing special coverage, thus making it difficult to take advantage of due to the lower power. Its speed tier isn't really that great in a tier crowded with pokemon at +100 speed and most of the mons slower than it can take at least 1 hit easily. You could argue that it can use Protean to make predictions with resistances and stuff but tbh with how frail it is from my experience it absolutely doesn't matter. At the end of the day its a niche pokemon that is completely outclassed by Simipour as a sweeper and Samurott as a wallbreaker.

 

[SlickHippo99]

I feel as if Frogadier should be higher ranked to at least B because it has a lot of capabilities, for example T-Spikes and Tuant it can wallbreak extremely well. It has way more coverage than most people think and it even gets protean and can use that well.

Frogadier's problem is it isn't all that strong, even with Protean. It's also really frail, which usually isn't usually an issue for fast offensive pokemon, but 97 speed just doesn't cut it against top offensive threats like Pyroar, Archeops, Tauros, and Swellow. Additionally, Sucker Punch (and almost any other form of priority) chunks it hard, and it's everywhere in the meta atm. Jynx has these issues as well, but it has Lovely Kiss to neuter checks and counters as they switch in and it can boost with Nasty Plot (while also being able to take a weaker special hit). It's also a LOT stronger than Frogadier. Frogadier isn't total trash due to T Spikes and decent offensive presence, but it is in no way worthy of B rank. It can wallbreak decently, but it just doesn't quite have the speed or power to cut it as a big threat in this meta.

Edit: ninja'd

 

[TheMasterOP]

Rhydon for S +? rank or any higher rank S Why? Simple this pokemon has a very good amount of attack and defense and with Eviolite receive a very good increase in defense statistics and to top it accesses booster movements with which can destroy entire teams with their set of double dance, this pokemon is a good check of xatu, scyter, among many others pokemon jynx this tier is also a decent rock stealth setter despite having a very useless abilitys if the pokemon has access to the types megahorn grass and other psychic with whom you can destroy them easily despite not having stab this pokemon I see very broken for the tier that is why I think it would be better to place it in a more than S rank also to supplement this information this pokemon can check other pokemon as Mawile, Skuntank , Malamar , Musharna, garbodor, Pinsir and pyroar .also you have access to blast rock to break substitutes and focus sash . Rhydon is broken .....

 

[SlickHippo99]

Rhydon for S +? rank or any higher rank S Why? Simple this pokemon has a very good amount of attack and defense and with Eviolite receive a very good increase in defense statistics and to top it accesses booster movements with which can destroy entire teams with their set of double dance, this pokemon is a good check of xatu, scyter, among many others pokemon jynx this tier is also a decent rock stealth setter despite having a very useless abilitys if the pokemon has access to the types megahorn grass and other psychic with whom you can destroy them easily despite not having stab this pokemon I see very broken for the tier that is why I think it would be better to place it in a more than S rank also to supplement this information this pokemon can check other pokemon as Mawile, Skuntank , Malamar , Musharna, garbodor, Pinsir and pyroar. Rhydon is broken .....

No

Rhydon is really good, but it's too slow and has common weaknesses to Water, Grass, Ice, and Fighting to be broken. It also lacks any sort of recovery, so it can be worn down throughout the match. It's rather unreliable in checking Fire types as well since they often carry HP Grass or other SE coverage and/or can muscle through it with sheer power. Stone Edge, and Megahorn to an extent, missing is also bothersome. Rhydon's other problem is that while it can sweep teams with double dance or wall several threats, it has difficulty finding the HP, turns, and moveslots to do both simultaneously. Rhydon might be able to check a multitude of physical attackers, but many carry coverage for it and it should never EVER be your only stop to all those mons you listed. It might be able to check something like Jynx, but it will lose ~75% in the process, assuming it isn't Lovely Kissed. Archeops runs Aqua Tail for it, Sawk does a ton with CC, Lilligant revenges it ez, Torterra is a hard stop and can OHKO, Shiftry OHKOs with Leaf Storm, etc. While difficult to switch in to, it is easier to force out and check. Toxic and Will-O really bone it from common stuff like Lanturn and Rotom respectively. Rhydon can take almost any one hit and retaliate back with a lot of power, but multiple special attackers really take their toll on it. I think it's a really good mon, but to me it doesn't broken, though it might be slightly better than Magmortar.