Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[ianlazerbeem]

How can Tera itself be tested before Tera Blast? If you remove Tera, that removes Tera Blast as well.

The same way Baton pass can be banned instead of banning every individual setup move. "Nerfing" via complex bans that don't even address the root issues make no sense from a tiering standpoint

Tera Preview, as weird and unsatisfying it is for a lot of players, needs to implemented.
Banning Tera Blast as well might be needed.
Tera in its current form is simply too outrageous.

I think we need preview for sure given how common situations like the ones you described are. Im also of the opinion that if we're at the point where we're giving Tera preview and also banning Tera blast there's Really no point salvaging the mechanic at that point

 

[Mega Breloom]

Making my first semi-serious attempt at reqs, and I just want to say I'm baffled by people who supposedly go 30-0. Like, how do you go 30 matches without getting rng screwed?

My second run, I managed a 13-0 start (courtesy of some baaaad misplays by a couple of my opponents, TBH). Lost a match (to another reqs account I think) and won my next two to hit 15-1. Feeling great.

My next three matches:
A lead Attack Booster Iron Treads somehow manages to flinch and follow-up KO both of my attempts to get it into easy KO range for Scarf Enamorus, putting me in a massive bind and ultimately leaving me too depleted to close out the match.

Next match: An unlucky Cursed Body proc on Scarf Enamorus from the most obvious Screens Pult ever gives a free switch to Bax. Hard switch on the DD to Gholdengo who gladly sacrifices its balloon to Icicle Crash to KO with Make It Rain. This invites in Tera Flying Roaring Moon. I correctly predict the DD and click TWave to put the rest of my team in a good position to claw back momentum...and miss. Roaring Moon Sweeps.

Third match: Spamming Strength Sap with Brambleghast against Ursaluna to buy me the breathing room to set up extra Spikes and pick up a Rapid Spin boost to help manage a Specs Enamorus breathing down my neck. Luna gets the crit. Worst part of this one is that I would have won if I'd made the worse play and just gone for the extra Spikes that turn.

So, three matches and >5 pts of GXE gone because of a ~9% chance, a ~5% chance, and a ~6% chance. I'm not saying the GXE requirement is overly burdensome or anything. Pretty sure I can still get it on that account if I have the time to invest, but are these people going 30-0 just spamming HO to burn through matches and starting a fresh alt after every loss just for the flex? Because 30-0 is an expression of luck at least as much as it's an expression of skill.

For me it also has to do with good teambuilding (so two or three turns of hax doesn't mean an auto lose) and being able to adapt to the situation in middle of the match, among other things like being able to overcome the bad match ups and avoid being put in possitions where getting haxed is an auto lose.

 

[Big Water Lover]

Making my first semi-serious attempt at reqs, and I just want to say I'm baffled by people who supposedly go 30-0. Like, how do you go 30 matches without getting rng screwed?

My second run, I managed a 13-0 start (courtesy of some baaaad misplays by a couple of my opponents, TBH). Lost a match (to another reqs account I think) and won my next two to hit 15-1. Feeling great.

My next three matches:
A lead Attack Booster Iron Treads somehow manages to flinch and follow-up KO both of my attempts to get it into easy KO range for Scarf Enamorus, putting me in a massive bind and ultimately leaving me too depleted to close out the match.

Next match: An unlucky Cursed Body proc on Scarf Enamorus from the most obvious Screens Pult ever gives a free switch to Bax. Hard switch on the DD to Gholdengo who gladly sacrifices its balloon to Icicle Crash to KO with Make It Rain. This invites in Tera Flying Roaring Moon. I correctly predict the DD and click TWave to put the rest of my team in a good position to claw back momentum...and miss. Roaring Moon Sweeps.

Third match: Spamming Strength Sap with Brambleghast against Ursaluna to buy me the breathing room to set up extra Spikes and pick up a Rapid Spin boost to help manage a Specs Enamorus breathing down my neck. Luna gets the crit. Worst part of this one is that I would have won if I'd made the worse play and just gone for the extra Spikes that turn.

So, three matches and >5 pts of GXE gone because of a ~9% chance, a ~5% chance, and a ~6% chance. I'm not saying the GXE requirement is overly burdensome or anything. Pretty sure I can still get it on that account if I have the time to invest, but are these people going 30-0 just spamming HO to burn through matches and starting a fresh alt after every loss just for the flex? Because 30-0 is an expression of luck at least as much as it's an expression of skill.

HO definitely makes getting reqs easier, not caring about how other people do also makes thing easier.

 

[turd2]

Lots of Iron Treads teams on low ladder that mess up my HO hazards... maybe that guy belongs in OU after all

 

[mcooper527666]

In case nobody is talking more about zama-h, let me leave my thoughts on this: That mutt can simply tera to either make body press stronger or boost the strength of it’s coverage move while also providing some defensive utility (Tera electric turns it’s flying weakness into a resistance and bashes corviknight, dondozo and toxapex with wild charge; Tera dark turns it’s psychic weakness into an immunity and decimates ghost types with crunch; and Tera steel not only turns it’s fairy weakness into a resistance, and also maul fairies with iron head, but Tera steell is possibly the best Tera type in the game)

 

[Mega Breloom]

Talking about luck.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

View attachment 526924
Talking about luck.

 

[June Heat]

Luck good when benefit me. Luck bad when against me.

Also Booster Iron Treads ain’t that bad of a suicide lead. Get rocks up, keep hazards off your side with spin or steel beam, and threatening real damage. I can see the appeal, and why people use it. Still think it is a UU mon, but has a solid niche.

 

[KrazyKoopa95]

Making my first semi-serious attempt at reqs, and I just want to say I'm baffled by people who supposedly go 30-0. Like, how do you go 30 matches without getting rng screwed?

My second run, I managed a 13-0 start (courtesy of some baaaad misplays by a couple of my opponents, TBH). Lost a match (to another reqs account I think) and won my next two to hit 15-1. Feeling great.

My next three matches:
A lead Attack Booster Iron Treads somehow manages to flinch and follow-up KO both of my attempts to get it into easy KO range for Scarf Enamorus, putting me in a massive bind and ultimately leaving me too depleted to close out the match.

Next match: An unlucky Cursed Body proc on Scarf Enamorus from the most obvious Screens Pult ever gives a free switch to Bax. Hard switch on the DD to Gholdengo who gladly sacrifices its balloon to Icicle Crash to KO with Make It Rain. This invites in Tera Flying Roaring Moon. I correctly predict the DD and click TWave to put the rest of my team in a good position to claw back momentum...and miss. Roaring Moon Sweeps.

Third match: Spamming Strength Sap with Brambleghast against Ursaluna to buy me the breathing room to set up extra Spikes and pick up a Rapid Spin boost to help manage a Specs Enamorus breathing down my neck. Luna gets the crit. Worst part of this one is that I would have won if I'd made the worse play and just gone for the extra Spikes that turn.

So, three matches and >5 pts of GXE gone because of a ~9% chance, a ~5% chance, and a ~6% chance. I'm not saying the GXE requirement is overly burdensome or anything. Pretty sure I can still get it on that account if I have the time to invest, but are these people going 30-0 just spamming HO to burn through matches and starting a fresh alt after every loss just for the flex? Because 30-0 is an expression of luck at least as much as it's an expression of skill.

Honeslty, I thought about trying to reach the requirements to vote, but trying to win 30-0 sounfs impossible. There are so many busted Pokemons j so many hax & luck in this game, that you have to get EXTREMELY lucky to do so.

 

[Real Pikachu]

In case nobody is talking more about zama-h, let me leave my thoughts on this: That mutt can simply tera to either make body press stronger or boost the strength of it’s coverage move while also providing some defensive utility (Tera electric turns it’s flying weakness into a resistance and bashes corviknight, dondozo and toxapex with wild charge; Tera dark turns it’s psychic weakness into an immunity and decimates ghost types with crunch; and Tera steel not only turns it’s fairy weakness into a resistance, and also maul fairies with iron head, but Tera steell is possibly the best Tera type in the game)

I'd argue the best Tera for Zama is actually Poison, since it beats Fighting and Fairy and Toxic. Tera Steel has the issue of being weak to the mirror.

 

[Narmy]

Wait people actually waste tera on Zamazenta?

 

[awyp]

Wait people actually waste tera on Zamazenta?

Usually not but if you're about to sweep and there's one roadblock in the way then yeah a defensive tera would be ideal.

 

[Real Pikachu]

You Tera Zama if you need to resist a move and win the game. Poison resists Moonblast from Valiant/Enamorous and other Zama Body Press.

 

[SnackWasTaken]

What’s with torkoal viability rank? It prob will drop, but I saw it five times in the past ten games, half of all games seems pretty viable, especially with the variety of abusers we have. To name a few, we got Hilligant, Volcanion, most of the Ancient Paradoxes, Harcanine even if it’s bad, even Torkoal providing to itself with TR support and Eruption (a rare but existing strat I saw in those ten games).
My point is, you can always change the list later if (or rather when) it drops, so if sun is common rn then why not put torkoal in high viability? Am I the only one seeing torkoal this often?

 

[WildWave]

1) Is there a limit to how many mons get banned due to tera for you to change your mind?

2) Why is having less mons and thus less options better than having more mons, and more options?

3) What are the benefits of not being to comfortably attack the mon in front of you, instead of the mon it might become?

4) Are you at all curious what SV OU would look like without tera?

1. Nope, not at all. Ban the Pokémon, keep the mechanic.

2. Less Pokémon? Options? Not sure what you mean by this since there's well over 400 Pokémon available including 8 Pikachus.

3. That's where the skill factor and competitiveness comes into play. It's not like your opponent has an advantage or anything. It just comes down to certain plays.

4. Nope, I'll just go play Gen 8 if I don't wanna play a meta without Tera. Or any other format for that matter.

I just felt like answering this.

 

[Narmy]

Just wait til someone finds a cracked strat that requires hat pikachu its about to go nuts

 

[Return to Zero]

Anti Tera stop trying to gaslight the community into thinking we must do only a binary option poll next Suspect Test challenge (impossible)

Gaslighting is when you try to convince someone that they can't trust their own thoughts and feelings by lying or withholding information. If me saying that I personally think Tera can't have a middle ground compromise and giving what are at least pretty good reasons why is enough to rock your world and make you reconsider if you can trust yourself, I would either recommend seeing a therapist or using better word choices that don't attack people for expressing an opinion.

What's the compromise we should be trying? Tera Preview is probably the most popular option, but even that has its detractors from Pro and Anti Tera people. And I'd be pretty worried if a Tera suspect had three options, because that inevitably means no matter which one wins, the people who voted for the other two can claim that they only lost because the votes were split. I just don't know a good way to handle this kind of thing. If you or someone else does, by all means, feel free to gaslight me into agreeing with your idea.

 

[awyp]

Just wait til someone finds a cracked strat that requires hat pikachu its about to go nuts

For all the Samurott-H leads, I've seen a lead Pikachu with Volt Tackle and Quick Attack (lol)

 

[sims796]

For all the Samurott-H leads, I've seen a lead Pikachu with Volt Tackle and Quick Attack (lol)

Did we run into the same guy? Fucker nearly two shot my Ursaluna with Grass Knot. I dunno what that

 

[Karxrida]

For all the Samurott-H leads, I've seen a lead Pikachu with Volt Tackle and Quick Attack (lol)

What a pleb, Pikachu gets Fake Out.

 

[June Heat]

I'm dropping this here for anyone that want's to limit test Zamazenta https://pokepast.es/ed63bd649183b91d. I made these when I was very sleepy

 

[Ctann]

After playing with and against Zamazenta quite a lot now..

honestly I’m happy with its place in the meta.

its clearly broken in any stable meta, but the current one is ridiculous. It really needs to be in the meta to regulate the ridiculous physical attacker roster, and the fact that so many just break past your options.

zamazenta feels “super OP” but..

.. eleki and magearna were different. You couldn’t plan for eleki at all, it just spams volt switch and it’s always a chance they won’t actually ice beam when you think they will. Magearna was just the most ridiculous thing OU could ask for, just impossible to prepare for.

then you have zam-crowned and chien pao. Chien pao was very clearly broken in Chi Yu meta lol, and added no good value. Meanwhile zam crowned was the stronger of the two Zam, and it just NUKED teams, I think if both zamazentas stayed it’s too much to plan around, but with only hero, it’s not so bad…

next..

the Volcarona ban was completely unexpected, whilst I think it’s a strong threat, it’s not in the league of the others. And finally urshifu was unique in that, it was comfortably checked by toxapex and amoonguss, and maybe some other fringe options, but it really really really drove holes into teams that tried to get creative. It reduced creative team design and was just strong as all hell.

meanwhile zamazenta is interesting. it’s crucially adding diversity and creative team design is being rewarded. You can’t just easily spam physical attackers with some mild support.

If it’s existing simultaneously in a meta with blind Tera, kingambit (PS: for those who saw the last replay, I learned to ID in front of an end game gambit, but how does it do this much damage with low kick against a +5 Zamazenta… this is seriously ridiculous!), and the miscellaneous other things that just rotate throughout the meta fluctuations, whether that’s peak dragonite meta when meowscarada teams were king , peak Volcarona meta when magearna dominated the meta, etc, then I’m all for it.

I would vote DNB, so if the DNB crew need another voter to get it over the line, happy to go for reqs on the vote thread. Admittedly, the DNB vote is a bit of a protest vote at how silly the meta is getting.

it’s also cool to see the increased diversity and ghost become such a common Tera type wincon. I guess this is mostly thanks to ursaluna and zamazenta. Here’s replays that demonstrate ghost type Tera importance RN. It includes a win and a loss



https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1886413638-n2y868ko14vfv1q58knkd33pjq57kj5pw
ran away with the game after a Tera ghost on a fake put + future sight wombcombo

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1886557931-h1gbj5bfhgmxqth7bf9v4dgdh40y7napw

lost a game, however delayed the opponents win with a Tera ghost. Unfortunately the dragapult crit meant zam couldn’t pull down 2-3 Pokémon with it.

—

the meta is in a crazy place right now. I really don’t think things like kingambit can coexist with blind Tera, it’ll be 100% manageable and maybe even balanced in a Tera disclosure meta. Stability and predictability (although very strong pressure) from zamazenta, is very welcome.

very early on in the Tera gen, we were saying it’ll reach the point where we choose between banning more Pokémon, but keeping Tera, or, alternatively banning less Pokémon, thanks to getting rid of Tera. I think in the current blind Tera meta zamazenta is high value.

in a restricted Tera meta, such as Tera disclosure at preview, we won’t need zamazentas presence to stabilise the meta as much.

I don’t need to explain how easy it is to check Zamazenta, others have done that before.

TL:DR In short, it’s too good, but predictable and possible to plan for. It also helps regulate all the crazy options people have to spam physical attackers. (And helps regulate kingambit lol)

There are SO many games that are coming down to one crucial turn, one crucial miss, etc.

Thanks for reading, and for those who didn’t read, I hope the replays are worth watching.

 

[Crimson Chris]

We live in a timeline where a version of Samurott is so threatening that people are bringing out these niche lower tier mons to counter it. Gen 9 meta is chaotic in all the best and worst ways. What a wild generation.

 

[YubelVT]

I hate this format. Sneasler has to go, Zamazenta has to go. We need more defoggers. GameFreak give me back defog zapdos I am begging

 

[Lectrys]

If we're sharing Zamazenta-H sets, here's mine:

Zamazenta @ Expert Belt / Leftovers / Black Belt
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Crunch
- Stone Edge / Ice Fang
- Ice Fang / Psychic Fangs / Heavy Slam

This is meant to come in mid-to-late game and clean up all that's left of the opposing team or at least tear holes into as many mons as possible, including special attackers. Don't be afraid to switch it out after too many Close Combats, though.

Item and last 2 moves are insanely customizable depending on the team holes you need patched up. Tera Water is not so negotiable, and Zama-H is my preferred Tera target against Rain teams.

Black Belt was better for me to try to seal up an Urshifu-R weakness. Leftovers and Expert Belt depend on whether more opponents think it's ID-BPress or Choice Band on switch-in. As much as I wish I had Life Orb's damage multiplier, Zamazenta-H is meant to brawl and survive, not KO itself early.

Stone Edge was really awesome as a mid-ground into opposing Chien-Pao with Dragapult in the back, and it's still good against Zapdos. Ice Fang helps fix a slight Lando-T weakness for me and also fixes the Dragonite match-up fairly well, but I can tear into Iron Moth and some Iron Valiant and pretend to damage Toxapex with Psychic Fangs. Heavy Slam is good against Enamorus and Iron Valiant, except my best team has Skeledirge and Scarf Sneasler so that's less necessary (it also deals joke amounts of damage to Great Tusk and previously Chien-Pao).

It might be Zama-H's worst set, but it's already attracted useless Taunts and daring Dragapult switch-ins (Specs Pult only 2HKOes and I am willing to KO Pult back with Crunch).