Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[Melbelle]

It’s been less than a day; this would be the quickest quickban in the history of competitive Pokémon, and that’s including things like Mega Salamence, Magearna, Landorus-I, etc.

Has it been less time than Regieleki?

 

[Morkal]

Here are some quick early impressions from testing so far (this will only cover Pokemon I've personally tested so far)

Scale Shot is very hard to deal with; Baxcalibur is extremely strong and will likely get the boot somewhat soon.

Ogerpon-Hearthflame is really cool and one of my favorite Pokemon to use right now; 120 Attack and 110 Speed with a great offensive movepool, awesome typing, neat utility such as Knock Off/U-Turn, and a monstrous signature move in Ivy Cudgel - don't sleep on this mon.

Jirachi is being slept on right now; if you're having problems with Baxcalibur, run Bulky Jirachi with paralysis. Great mon with a great typing and superb movepool.

Mightyena is difficult to make work due to his low stats, but his support movepool is insane with unique tools like Super Fang, Yawn, Sucker Punch, Taunt, and more. Tera has only helped his prospects. I'll have an analysis ready once I have a concrete idea of what his ideal niche is going to be (currently leaning toward bulky utility at the moment).

Empoleon is, without a doubt, one of the most heavily buffed Pokemon I've ever seen. Empoleon got access to Roost, Flip Turn and Knock Off, and additionally has Competitive as a new ability. Solid Water/Steel typing, access to Stealth Rock and other tools, along with a very usable 111 Special Attack. I could see Empoleon becoming an OU mainstay somewhere in the #15-25 usage position.

A lot of you know I've been a huge advocate for Alomomola this gen, and with the new tools Mola got (particularly Flip Turn), it's only gotten better. It isn't just a fixture on hard stall anymore, and is now one of the best, if not the best Wish passer in OU in my opinion.

Another Pokemon that's been unfairly slept on. Magcargo brought up to me earlier on Discord that Fake Out + Taunt is great for stalling out ATales turns, and I've had great success chunking things with STAB Technician Silk Scarf Double Hit combined with Low Kick and Knock Off. Running it with Tera Type Ghost is great for dealing with Fighting-types, and having a Ghost immunity is always great.

Torterra got just as many buffs as Empoleon did - Not only does Torterra have access to Shell Smash along with a bevy of powerful new options such as STAB Headlong Rush, but it also has some additional utility tools such as STAB Trailblaze, Screens, Body Press, and a bevy of great coverage options. With Adamant, Torterra reaches 422 Speed with +2, and with Jolly, Torterra reaches 464 Speed. 56 Speed is not too slow for Shell Smash shenanigans if you play your cards right.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

View attachment 551748
Empoleon is, without a doubt, one of the most heavily buffed Pokemon I've ever seen. Empoleon got access to Roost, Flip Turn and Knock Off, and additionally has Competitive as a new ability. Solid Water/Steel typing, access to Stealth Rock and other tools, along with a very usable 111 Special Attack. I could see Empoleon becoming an OU mainstay somewhere in the #15-25 usage position.

i think the one problem empoleon has is a bad case of 4mss. it wants to run roost, flip turn, knock off and stealth rock, but then all it can do with competitive is bluff. meanwhile, if you run special moves on it to take full advantage of competitive, you lose out on some of its new utility. in any case, it's definitely staying ou because, well, it's a water/steel mon with good defenses and recovery. not much can keep that out of ou

 

[Morkal]

i think the one problem empoleon has is a bad case of 4mss. it wants to run roost, flip turn, knock off and stealth rock, but then all it can do with competitive is bluff. meanwhile, if you run special moves on it to take full advantage of competitive, you lose out on some of its new utility. in any case, it's definitely staying ou because, well, it's a water/steel mon with good defenses and recovery. not much can keep that out of ou

That's why I've been running this variant of Empoleon in my testing

Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Competitive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 140 SpD / 116 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Roar
- Roost
- Flip Turn

Rather than run Stealth Rock on Empoleon itself, I've been running a Roar bluff set with hazard setting partners to phase, Knock, Flip out, Roost when needed.

 

[MrE]

Am I the only one who thinks that Boots + DD + Glaive >> Dice + SS + SD. Most teams have a fairy on their team so clicking SS isn't always the freest thing you can do and Bax getting +2 attack vs +1 is a bit overkill at +1 you're going to rip a hole through the opposition anyway and if you're behind veil in snow it's not too hard getting 2 dd's off esp if you're at 100% vs 75% because of rocks.

 

[sims796]

So how is Alomomomomola been working out for those who actually tested it? We all know how could it should be on paper, but has a slow wishturner been as good as it sounds? I personally always had trouble making Wish work out, so I cannot wait to see if the new tools makes a huge difference.

Also, which CleFAble.has been most effective? In what team setups? I wanna give Tera Psychic Cosmic (Stored) Power build a test.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

That's why I've been running this variant of Empoleon in my testing

View attachment 551754
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Competitive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 140 SpD / 116 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Roar
- Roost
- Flip Turn

Rather than run Stealth Rock on Empoleon itself, I've been running a Roar bluff set with hazard setting partners to phase, Knock, Flip out, Roost when needed.

i've thought of a set that's a lot dumber and probably not any good but takes full advantage of competitive:

Empoleon @ Adrenaline Orb
Ability: Competitive
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Tera Blast
- Roost

again, this likely only works on paper and i haven't actually tried it yet, but boltbeam + water should be unresisted unless i missed something with an immunity ability. intimidate procs adrenaline orb and competitive at the same time, so your best bet for using this is to lure in an intimidator. swap out roost for recover and you can also run the exact same set on milotic. kind of a meme set but whatever

 

[taziathegreat]

Snow and to a lesser extent sun have gotten so good this Gen it’s basically weather wars all over again.

I’ve been sick so I haven’t really had the chance to play much but the 10 games I’ve seen where 4-6 where sun or snow.

I don’t know it’s such a push back on the idea BOTH
Atales and bax are broken.
Both snow and screen teams where both extremely viable prior to the dlc drop and ninetales is the only Pokémon that can consistently run veil, a archetype that seamlessly combines two already successful archetypes.

We are in a Meta where Pokémon, moves or items that reliably generate free turns are suspect worthy, cyclizar, Tera lightclay etc etc

 

[C0zzLax]

Am I the only one who thinks that Boots + DD + Glaive >> Dice + SS + SD. Most teams have a fairy on their team so clicking SS isn't always the freest thing you can do and Bax getting +2 attack vs +1 is a bit overkill at +1 you're going to rip a hole through the opposition anyway and if you're behind veil in snow it's not too hard getting 2 dd's off esp if you're at 100% vs 75% because of rocks.

I agree 100%. Not only that, I still think thermal exchange is far superior. What’s a bit of hp you might recover when you’re at +1 or +2 speed behind veil? Thermal exchange will discourage courtchange ace from clicking pyroball which is one of the few counter play options that exist.

 

[Morkal]

i've thought of a set that's a lot dumber and probably not any good but takes full advantage of competitive:

Empoleon @ Adrenaline Orb
Ability: Competitive
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Tera Blast
- Roost

again, this likely only works on paper and i haven't actually tried it yet, but boltbeam + water should be unresisted unless i missed something with an immunity ability. intimidate procs adrenaline orb and competitive at the same time, so your best bet for using this is to lure in an intimidator. swap out roost for recover and you can also run the exact same set on milotic. kind of a meme set but whatever

You could also run Grass Knot with Tera Grass - that way you're not reliant on Tera Blast for your coverage while hitting some impressive feats like having a small chance to OHKO Garg without a boost or even chip (let alone with Chip) + you gain a nifty Earthquake Ground resist so it's useful for baiting Tusk

252 SpA Tera Grass Empoleon Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Garganacl: 344-408 (85.1 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Garganacl: 318-374 (78.7 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[SwaggySammy44]

Am I the only one who thinks that Boots + DD + Glaive >> Dice + SS + SD. Most teams have a fairy on their team so clicking SS isn't always the freest thing you can do and Bax getting +2 attack vs +1 is a bit overkill at +1 you're going to rip a hole through the opposition anyway and if you're behind veil in snow it's not too hard getting 2 dd's off esp if you're at 100% vs 75% because of rocks.

I think the advantage of Dice+SS+SD is that at you can often get a speed boost and a kill in the same turn with SS, which usually means a win

 

[WilhelmTheOkay]

That's why I've been running this variant of Empoleon in my testing

View attachment 551754
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Competitive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 140 SpD / 116 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Roar
- Roost
- Flip Turn

Rather than run Stealth Rock on Empoleon itself, I've been running a Roar bluff set with hazard setting partners to phase, Knock, Flip out, Roost when needed.

Wouldn't Torrent be better here? It would at least have a chance to do something when slow pivoting.

 

[serperiorr]

Ppl have been sleeping on (imo) clef's best set rn: CM LO Clef

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Electric / Ghost / Fire / Ground / Water
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 72 SpA / 12 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt / Shadow Ball / Flamethrower / Tera Blast
- Moonlight

Super diverse mon and destroys stall since you whip out that surprise tera and beat their pex/glow/ghold whatever. LO allows you to beat dozo without any coverage. Tera Ghost + sball allows near perfect coverage while also spinblocking and hitting stuff like ghold. Only annoying mon is clod which theoretically gets PP stalled, and cm bliss which can probably beat this 1v1.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1943390687
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1943401782-u8v08catmhp2gwijmo57kgm9oqp7r9vpw

 

[Morkal]

Wouldn't Torrent be better here? It would at least have a chance to do something when slow pivoting.

The goal isn't damage here; I run Competitive specifically to bluff an offensive set - imo the mind games this enables are more worth it than Flip Turn's damage boost from Torrent, especially when Roar + Knock Off is so potent in forcing double switches in a single turn

 

[arnimacarni]

I’d expect a viability list this upcoming week, but formal rankings take a bit.

Speaking as someone who has played BW since 2011, I really disagree. The weather then and the weather now are vastly different and comparing the two doesn’t accomplish anything. Perma-weather and the internal synergy schemes then vs the immediacy forced now and the less distinct archetypes serve wholly different purposes.

It’s been less than a day; this would be the quickest quickban in the history of competitive Pokémon, and that’s including things like Mega Salamence, Magearna, Landorus-I, etc.

My guess is there will be a survey sometime in the next few days, followed by a vote. Let’s be realistic and levelheaded here.

Oh wow that's the first time Finch has quoted me a celebrity knows I exist <3

First of all, thank you for your time and effort, I appreciate the way you and the council police and conduct your due dilligence

Second, I'm quite new to competitive so dont listen to what I say too seriously. I wanted to merely point out how gen5 is defined by clashing weathers and seems that, even if the inner mechanics of it are different, we're going to be seeing multiple not only viable but also defining weathers this gen, mostly rain snow and sun and eventually elec terrain if koko is released. On a personal note, I have been wanting to develop a hackrom for the longest time which would be tied to weather wars, as I feel its super fun in concept. Never got past theorizing a Rotom-Car Electric/Steel form, so it prolly wont get too far, but I digress.

Last but not least, and I'm asking this in no bad faith or malice at heart, but is it in the cards to eventually maybe possibly perhaps test Darkrai and Shaymin-Sky in OU once the meta is stable enough? I imagine Skymin will do Skymin things, but Darkrai I can imagine being somewhat reasonable. I'm really just asking to know whether this is something to push for or not if the council is going to oppose it for the whole gen and leave it to rest. My fav mons in terms of design and personal connection have always been Manaphy, Darkrai and Shaymin, as I have fond memories of going to the in-person events for them when I was a kid, so I'm always excited at the idea of them in OU.

Thanks again for all the work you put. Wish you all the best during these stressful days <3

 

[ianlazerbeem]

i do count the snow boost as a gain because it makes tales very difficult to kill before it gets a veil up

i think veil is fine when the pool of setters is very limited and they have flaws that make them costly to use. it's not like anyone was using veil abomasnow, and i don't think people are going to switch over to it or alolan vulpix if tales gets the boot. before tales came in, it was a very risky tactic that you only really saw on gimmick teams, and that makes it seem to me like the mon is the problem instead of the move

on some level, sure, whatever happens here doesn't matter much, but on another level, we're still carrying baggage from pre-home that we have yet to deal with. if broken stuff remains unbanned here, it's getting carried over into dlc2, which will add even more mons that are potential problems. if we don't move fast, this meta risks not being in a playable state by the time gen 10 comes out

people were actually using veil Abomasnow, it rose in popularity a bit towards the end of pre DLC and was seen in some OLT games as a Bax partner.

we have at least a year until gen 10. DLC2 comes in two months. Calm down

to be fair, it's also one of the shortest metas in the history of competitive pokemon, and i don't really think anyone's going to voice complaints

I really don't think it's as clearly broken as people are stating here, and since it's been part of the tier since launch, including when the tier was considered relatively stable, it's not really a "no brainer" to the extent you think it is. The last time the council quickbanned something "clearly broken" that had been in the tier for months, it was extremely unpopular. "I don't think anyone's going to voice complaints" has never been true in Smogon history

 

[Dhrabb]

Been playing the new meta a good bit and good lord became even more ridiculous than before, which was kinda expected. Really hope this thing gets quickbanned in the next couple days.

is also quite painful to deal with when it has Tera and support, I think it and Bax deserve being banned asap.

Speaking of , some people seem to want it banned. I personally think it's not banworthy, I highly doubt other mons will be abusing its support as well as Bax and Manaphy do. As someone mentioned earlier we've seen a similar scenario in the early HOME meta. That said I do find screens to just be an unfun strat to play with and against so I wouldn't mind a light clay ban :P


Another thing I wanted to touch upon is that the increased Knock distribution means that getting rid of Boots has become MUCH easier. Removal hasn't exactly gotten better, is like the best new addition. I could see being suspect worthy, not because it's broken or whatever, but because of the chokehold it has on the Hazard removal metagame. Yes is like the only viable defogger but not having Ghold around helps teams to combat hazards SO MUCH better. So I'd say we should keep an eye on Ghold.
Please quickban Bax and Manaphy

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

What would be the point where people feel like screens is an issue, along with any abusers?

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

Is balance even viable in a meta as brutally fast paced as this? I've genuinely considered starting to play Stall just to get away from having to play as and against HO over and over and over and over. It seems like there's just not a lot of Pokemon in the dex that can even take a hit half decently, outside of the ones that were already useful and popular pre-DLC.

And with regards to a possible light clay/screens ban, I think it really goes to show how awful this generation has been that a more or less healthy style in every previous generation has become overbearing to be on the chopping block not just once, but multiple times across the generation. It's almost like there's a blatant, horribly broken thing in the metagame causing HO to be an incredibly dominant style, and mixing that with things that were already good for HO (like screens) is causing problems... I can't seem to put a finger on what, though.

 

[Cuddly]

Am I the only one who thinks that Boots + DD + Glaive >> Dice + SS + SD. Most teams have a fairy on their team so clicking SS isn't always the freest thing you can do and Bax getting +2 attack vs +1 is a bit overkill at +1 you're going to rip a hole through the opposition anyway and if you're behind veil in snow it's not too hard getting 2 dd's off esp if you're at 100% vs 75% because of rocks.

You’re not the only one.
It’s also worth mentioning that +1 Speed you get from Scale Shot and +2 Atk you get from Sword Dance is done in 2 turns and makes it easier to play around. Also with Knock Off, you lose a ton of power from Scale Shot than you would have if you just use DD+GR. Knock makes you lose boots too, but at least you were able to switch in freely too.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

You could also run Grass Knot with Tera Grass - that way you're not reliant on Tera Blast for your coverage while hitting some impressive feats like having a small chance to OHKO Garg without a boost or even chip (let alone with Chip) + you gain a nifty Earthquake Ground resist so it's useful for baiting Tusk

252 SpA Tera Grass Empoleon Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Garganacl: 344-408 (85.1 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Garganacl: 318-374 (78.7 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

speaking of garg, does anyone know whether salt cure does more damage to empoleon because it's both water and steel? if empoleon's taking 50% from salt cure, it might want to run cloak

 

[Bakugames]

What would be the point where people feel like screens is an issue, along with any abusers?

making multiple mons broken that would not be an issue otherwise to me. already broken mons would have been pushed to the edge by anything and screens was just the new toy, only one or two normal mons made broken by screens is just another "fine pokemon that has one tool that makes it unbearable"

 

[MattC (Banned)]

What the hell happened with Excalibur my beloved

I've been hearing talks about banning this dude and I'd like clarification as to why. If anything, ban Kingambit fr fr

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

What the hell happened with Excalibur my beloved

I've been hearing talks about banning this dude and I'd like clarification as to why. If anything, ban Kingambit fr fr

• alolan ninetales sets up snow for it, which gives it a 1.5x defense boost
• alolan ninetales also sets up aurora veil for it, which doubles both its defenses
• it now has access to scale shot, which allows it to run loaded dice scale shot + icicle spear. this gives a more powerful and more consistent ice stab than icicle crash, plus a sometimes weaker but less risky option than glaive rush (-1 defense instead of -2 to both defenses for a turn, plus you get a speed boost to boot). the defense drop really doesn't matter because under snow and veil its defense is tripled

 

[MattC (Banned)]

• alolan ninetales sets up snow for it, which gives it a 1.5x defense boost
• alolan ninetales also sets up aurora veil for it, which doubles both its defenses
• it now has access to scale shot, which allows it to run loaded dice scale shot + icicle spear. this gives a more powerful and more consistent ice stab than icicle crash, plus a sometimes weaker but less risky option than glaive rush (-1 defense instead of -2 to both defenses for a turn, plus you get a speed boost to boot). the defense drop really doesn't matter because under snow and veil its defense is tripled

Thank you for the clarification