Someone tested this, Empoleon takes the "regular" 25% for either of his types.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
While I do lean in favor of Dice I think this is a totally valid take. I've said it a few times now, but giving up Boots in a meta infested with hazards is a real cost. And while Boots is insanely valuable on Bax, Dice sets are a lot more item reliant which makes Knock Offs a lot more devastating.
What the hell happened with Excalibur my beloved
I've been hearing talks about banning this dude and I'd like clarification as to why. If anything, ban Kingambit fr fr
Alolan Ninetales became an Engineer.
In my eyes, this meta is an absolute win.
There's so much going around that no one is talking about Gambit rn! It might not get the top usage spot at this point. I wouldn't put it past A9T to get it tbh.
Also, it feels like Great Tusk has become semi-irrelevant because of all the snow and water (Manaphy) going around.
There's so much going around that no one is talking about Gambit rn! It might not get the top usage spot at this point. I wouldn't put it past A9T to get it tbh.
Also, it feels like Great Tusk has become semi-irrelevant because of all the snow and water (Manaphy) going around.
Last time we expedited the process employed and there were literal riots over what happened in Volcarona. Surely the same thread that was so vehemently opposed to that isn’t asking us to take that and double (honestly, more like quadruple) down procedurally when we have a sound plan in place.
We are approaching that mark later today.
The thing that this game needs the most is Scale Shot moved out of “Usually Useless Moves”
More likely to see retests galore open up come DLC2, when we approach a more permanent metagame. Discussions will happen though. Darkrai is more realistic than Skymin
After playing around like 10-20 games in the new meta, I can definitely say there are improvements to the meta with the addition of more defensive staples in the metagame. I wanna talk about a specific mon that got a major update in this meta.
Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Ground/Rock/Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
Previously Ttar suffered a major downfall due to it no longer able to make progress in the meta. The tier had underwent heavy power creep with Tusk, Ting-Lu, and Valiant resisting its STAB combination while tier king Gambit gave it serious competition. Ttar also didn’t have any noteworthy defensive utility, being a ghost check that is weak to MiR. Garg and Ting-Lu took its role as a ghost resist while being 10x better in the meta. However I believe it has gotten a glowup in Teal Mask.
-The addition of Knock Off into its moveset allowing it to make progress regardless, especially since Tusk and Ting-Lu hate losing their lefties.
-Veil Offense is like on 90% of teams rncause its broken. Ttar’s sand denying Alolatales its veil is a big deal.
-With how common Boots are, Sand is a nice way to slowly chip down the opponent and force them to use up one of 8 of their recovery pp, especially great against walls like Dozo, great on a breaker like Ttar.
-Slow pivots like G-King and Mola can get Ttar in safely, the latter of which is a great partner. Passing wishes to Ttar, thus letting it stay on the field for longer.
-Max speed Ada Ttar outspeeds Gambit which is perfect since Ttar can easily one-shot Tera Flying with SE and it resists Sucker.
Ttar didn’t change much outside of Knock, but its the small things within the meta that have put Ttar into anti-meta status for me, a redemption arc if you will.
Here’s a few more notable defensive mons I’ve taken a liking to.
Kommo-o @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Fairy/Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish/Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Body Press
- Earthquake/Draco Meteor
- Taunt/Heavy Slam/Earthquake/Roar
We all know how bonkers Kommo-o is offensively, but its showing alot of promise defensively. Bulletproof is really nice for pivoting around Sballs, Dragon is a nice defensive typing rn due to Ogerpon and offensive waters. It also sports its own utility with Rocks, Taunt, and/or Roar. EQ to hit Ghold, Heavy Slam to snipe fairies, Draco is funny for chucking Tusks.
Fezandipiti @ Leftovers
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Play Rough
- Taunt
- Roost
- U-turn
I love this Pokemon. Its not just a Valiant check either. Its a fantastic special wall. Matches up well into Zapdos, Pult, Battle Bond Gren, Enam, etc. With Tera Water it can even switch into Speed Booster Wake, and what does it do in return? Alot. It pivots, it spreads poison with Toxic Chain, U-Turns. Its so incredibly versatile, this set is just scratching the surface. Swords Dance with Lash Out to hit Ghold is a possible option since its bulk + Taunt lets it get multiple SD’s offsetting it’s disappointing 91 base attack. So here we have a strong defensive mon that can make progress with Toxic Chain and U-Turn, great addition.
Alomomola @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Scald
- Flip Turn
Now for the biggest glowup of Teal Mask. Mola is the hero we didn’t ask for but the one we didn’t know we needed. Going from solely being on Stall to being the best bulky water in the tier. Scald makes it much less passive while Flip Turn makes it easier to safely pass Wishes to its allies, but more importantly, it can now fit on more archetypes this time around.
A fat physical wall with slow Flip-Turn, Regen, Scald, and Wish is incredible for scaving off the offensive threats in the tier while safely bringing in its own offensive teammates.
Brambleghast @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Spell Tag
Ability: Wind Rider/Infiltrator
Tera Type: Fairy/Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly/Naive Nature
- Poltergeist
- Spikes/Leaf Storm/Power Whip
- Rapid Spin
- Strength Sap
Might be crazy to say, but the addition of Poltergeist in its moveset might be enough to skyrocket it to being viable.
Poltergeist means Brambleghast is another spinner that can threaten to one-shot Ghold.
It easily one shots faster variants and with Spell Tag or Tera Ghost, can one shot bulkier Ghold sets.
Not only is it good at removing them now, but its typing makes it a great spike setter as well, capable of threatening other spike setters like Ting-Lu and H-Samu. Grass/Ghost is also just a baller offensive typing atm. Threatening Dozo, Mola, Glowking, Garg and other defensive staples while keeping itself alive with the most broken recovery move in the game Strength Sap. Doesn’t have much defensively but it can pivot into Zapdos Hurricane and get a Wind Rider boost. Infiltrator is an option to improve its matchup against Veil teams. Its not gonna be an OU staple due to its fraility but it has potential.
Some additional thoughts
-Bax and Manaphy are broken. Bax was never meant to have Scale Shot and Manaphy was never meant to use Tera.
-The only good Wake check added to Teal Mask is Empoleon who dies to Proto Specs Flamethrower or Weather Ball under sun, so uh get that shit outta here too.
-Hearthflame Ogerpon is kinda scary. Good speed tier, spikes, and Swords Dance on top of getting an Interpid Sword boost upon Terastilizing.
-Haven’t tried Munkidori but 130 SpA Psychic with Focus Miss is giving me Lele vibes, Toxic Chain Venoshock sounds funny.
Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Ground/Rock/Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
Previously Ttar suffered a major downfall due to it no longer able to make progress in the meta. The tier had underwent heavy power creep with Tusk, Ting-Lu, and Valiant resisting its STAB combination while tier king Gambit gave it serious competition. Ttar also didn’t have any noteworthy defensive utility, being a ghost check that is weak to MiR. Garg and Ting-Lu took its role as a ghost resist while being 10x better in the meta. However I believe it has gotten a glowup in Teal Mask.
-The addition of Knock Off into its moveset allowing it to make progress regardless, especially since Tusk and Ting-Lu hate losing their lefties.
-Veil Offense is like on 90% of teams rn
-With how common Boots are, Sand is a nice way to slowly chip down the opponent and force them to use up one of 8 of their recovery pp, especially great against walls like Dozo, great on a breaker like Ttar.
-Slow pivots like G-King and Mola can get Ttar in safely, the latter of which is a great partner. Passing wishes to Ttar, thus letting it stay on the field for longer.
-Max speed Ada Ttar outspeeds Gambit which is perfect since Ttar can easily one-shot Tera Flying with SE and it resists Sucker.
Ttar didn’t change much outside of Knock, but its the small things within the meta that have put Ttar into anti-meta status for me, a redemption arc if you will.
Here’s a few more notable defensive mons I’ve taken a liking to.
Kommo-o @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Fairy/Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish/Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Body Press
- Earthquake/Draco Meteor
- Taunt/Heavy Slam/Earthquake/Roar
We all know how bonkers Kommo-o is offensively, but its showing alot of promise defensively. Bulletproof is really nice for pivoting around Sballs, Dragon is a nice defensive typing rn due to Ogerpon and offensive waters. It also sports its own utility with Rocks, Taunt, and/or Roar. EQ to hit Ghold, Heavy Slam to snipe fairies, Draco is funny for chucking Tusks.
Fezandipiti @ Leftovers
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Play Rough
- Taunt
- Roost
- U-turn
I love this Pokemon. Its not just a Valiant check either. Its a fantastic special wall. Matches up well into Zapdos, Pult, Battle Bond Gren, Enam, etc. With Tera Water it can even switch into Speed Booster Wake, and what does it do in return? Alot. It pivots, it spreads poison with Toxic Chain, U-Turns. Its so incredibly versatile, this set is just scratching the surface. Swords Dance with Lash Out to hit Ghold is a possible option since its bulk + Taunt lets it get multiple SD’s offsetting it’s disappointing 91 base attack. So here we have a strong defensive mon that can make progress with Toxic Chain and U-Turn, great addition.
Alomomola @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Scald
- Flip Turn
Now for the biggest glowup of Teal Mask. Mola is the hero we didn’t ask for but the one we didn’t know we needed. Going from solely being on Stall to being the best bulky water in the tier. Scald makes it much less passive while Flip Turn makes it easier to safely pass Wishes to its allies, but more importantly, it can now fit on more archetypes this time around.
A fat physical wall with slow Flip-Turn, Regen, Scald, and Wish is incredible for scaving off the offensive threats in the tier while safely bringing in its own offensive teammates.
Brambleghast @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Spell Tag
Ability: Wind Rider/Infiltrator
Tera Type: Fairy/Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly/Naive Nature
- Poltergeist
- Spikes/Leaf Storm/Power Whip
- Rapid Spin
- Strength Sap
Might be crazy to say, but the addition of Poltergeist in its moveset might be enough to skyrocket it to being viable.
Poltergeist means Brambleghast is another spinner that can threaten to one-shot Ghold.
It easily one shots faster variants and with Spell Tag or Tera Ghost, can one shot bulkier Ghold sets.
Not only is it good at removing them now, but its typing makes it a great spike setter as well, capable of threatening other spike setters like Ting-Lu and H-Samu. Grass/Ghost is also just a baller offensive typing atm. Threatening Dozo, Mola, Glowking, Garg and other defensive staples while keeping itself alive with the most broken recovery move in the game Strength Sap. Doesn’t have much defensively but it can pivot into Zapdos Hurricane and get a Wind Rider boost. Infiltrator is an option to improve its matchup against Veil teams. Its not gonna be an OU staple due to its fraility but it has potential.
Some additional thoughts
-Bax and Manaphy are broken. Bax was never meant to have Scale Shot and Manaphy was never meant to use Tera.
-The only good Wake check added to Teal Mask is Empoleon who dies to Proto Specs Flamethrower or Weather Ball under sun, so uh get that shit outta here too.
-Hearthflame Ogerpon is kinda scary. Good speed tier, spikes, and Swords Dance on top of getting an Interpid Sword boost upon Terastilizing.
-Haven’t tried Munkidori but 130 SpA Psychic with Focus Miss is giving me Lele vibes, Toxic Chain Venoshock sounds funny.
Alolan Ninetales is the Ubercharge Medic, Baxcalibur is the Heavy
Alolan Ninetales became an Engineer.
Last edited:
Same with Take Heart, what??
EDIT: WAIT WHAT THE HELL IS TAIL GLOW
edit 2 electric boogaloo: https://pokepast.es/1765690ab8570e2c the Snow Teal Mak Expiriance™
I think Scale Shot getting helped by Dice is fine. Dragons mostly all get Dragon Dance and giving up your item slot and the attack buff for a powerful damaging move that also makes you more susceptible to priority creates interesting push and pull dynamics. As we've seen here you can argue the Dragon Dance set it better on Bax. The issue right now is one of the best users is taking only 1/3 the damage it normally would thanks to snow and veil support.
I'm thinking in this meta, Expert belt or HDB is the play for Ttar after playing a few games. Knock is good, but this tier has too many Knock resist that can exploit Tyranitar locked into a move like Gambit, Valiant, Tusk, Ting-Lu, etc. Expert belt or boots could let you play around these threats better and not be forced to make uncomfortable 50/50s. IMO All-Out-Attacker is the way to go over support since you need the coverage like Low Kick / Knock / Stone and something to hit Tusk (either Ice Beam / Surf / Hydro Pump or Tera Blast could work for this). Another option is Heavy Slam to destroy Valiant or a utility option like T-Wave or Stealth Rock.
One nice thing about Tar is that sand Chip damage is really useful vs BS cheese styles like PsyTerrain since it breaks sashes. I think Tar will carve out a nice place in the meta and will become a staple in due time.
There does seem to be way more support for Bax quickban than there had ever been for Volcarona. I don't think the two situation are really comparable.
I'd like to hear a genuine, well informed opinion from someone who doesn't think Bax is quickban-worthy post-DLC.
The main argument I see right now is that Dondozo was a great pick at least in the pre-DLC meta and seemingly will continue to be a pain for Bax teams. I also have heard people wanting to ban veil or light clay first, which I strongly disagree with but can at least understand.
Is there anything besides "Dozo is easy to fit for many teams and it keeps it in check" and "Restrict Veil Alolatales in some way first", that makes people opposed to a Bax ban?
Also, for what it's worth, I'm fine with giving it a couple days, having a survey, and only quickbanning it if it gets like 3.5/5 or higher. I just hope things move along at a reasonable pace.
The main argument I see right now is that Dondozo was a great pick at least in the pre-DLC meta and seemingly will continue to be a pain for Bax teams. I also have heard people wanting to ban veil or light clay first, which I strongly disagree with but can at least understand.
Is there anything besides "Dozo is easy to fit for many teams and it keeps it in check" and "Restrict Veil Alolatales in some way first", that makes people opposed to a Bax ban?
Also, for what it's worth, I'm fine with giving it a couple days, having a survey, and only quickbanning it if it gets like 3.5/5 or higher. I just hope things move along at a reasonable pace.
Ban Bax and Manaphy and then let's see where Aurora Tales takes us next 
Edit: As a side note, I've been running Scizor as an attempted counter to 9tale Bax teams, it works ok. But then Manaphy comes in and well...kills everything. Especially if it's the bulky version
Edit: As a side note, I've been running Scizor as an attempted counter to 9tale Bax teams, it works ok. But then Manaphy comes in and well...kills everything. Especially if it's the bulky version
guysss!!! brick break on kinggambit!!! with iron heaf !!!! bax is doomwd!!!
Its mainly that its been roughly a day and I don't think Veil counterplay has developed enough to confidently say that Bax is QB worthy. I also don't think Scale shot is AS impactful of an addition to its movepool since every move Bax uses is important (Ice Shard, Icicle Crash, Glaive Rush, EQ). I feel that a Bax suspect is more warranted than a QB.
I'm thinking Veil itself is overhyped rn and overtime we will see its usage drastically wane for the same reason we saw Grimmsnarl and Dragapult go from Uber tier screen setters to being "just OK". That doesn't mean I like fighting it ofc, but Screens are about as annoying now as they were earlier in the gen (and even last gen). Once Veil drops in usage, I think Bax will average around the same position it was pre-DLC, which is a strong threat that's borderline broken, but key word being borderline. I think a suspect is a better place to decide whether its too much than a QB by the council.
Does anyone else think bax is getting a little overhyped by this forum?
Don’t get me wrong - I thought Bax should’ve been suspected pre DLC if that meta lasted longer. It was already borderline broken and got a buff, so the hype makes sense and I wouldn’t be surprised if it ends up getting banned soon enough anyway.
However, from reading this forum you’d think Bax rn is just as stupid as flutter mane, regieleki, magearna, past gen genesect, etc. have been when a new OU tier drops, and that just hasn’t been my experience so far (given I’ve only played ~20 games, but all in the 1700/1800s). It’s obviously very good, but in my eyes not at the level of “quick ban less than a week into the new meta” like some of you seem to think.
Don’t get me wrong - I thought Bax should’ve been suspected pre DLC if that meta lasted longer. It was already borderline broken and got a buff, so the hype makes sense and I wouldn’t be surprised if it ends up getting banned soon enough anyway.
However, from reading this forum you’d think Bax rn is just as stupid as flutter mane, regieleki, magearna, past gen genesect, etc. have been when a new OU tier drops, and that just hasn’t been my experience so far (given I’ve only played ~20 games, but all in the 1700/1800s). It’s obviously very good, but in my eyes not at the level of “quick ban less than a week into the new meta” like some of you seem to think.
Last edited:
Yo rain's been kicking my ass, also there's been a bunch of screens setup teams running about.
I've been having fun with one of the new mons which might be considered a lot less viable:
Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Circle Throw
- Knock Off / Taunt
This fella has a bunch of nice characteristics that make it somewhat anti-meta at the moment, and it can come in and check multiple mons:
- Pretty much every rain mon (Basculegion, Floatzel, Barraskewda, Greninja,
- Crawdaunt
- Kingambit
- Hisuian Samurott
- Curse Dondozo
- Heatran
You can also make it come in against pre-boosted baxcalibur to disentivise it from boosting. I've been considering trying to run it on different hazard stacking structures to make more use out of Circle Throw.
I've been having fun with one of the new mons which might be considered a lot less viable:
Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Circle Throw
- Knock Off / Taunt
This fella has a bunch of nice characteristics that make it somewhat anti-meta at the moment, and it can come in and check multiple mons:
- Pretty much every rain mon (Basculegion, Floatzel, Barraskewda, Greninja,
- Crawdaunt
- Kingambit
- Hisuian Samurott
- Curse Dondozo
- Heatran
You can also make it come in against pre-boosted baxcalibur to disentivise it from boosting. I've been considering trying to run it on different hazard stacking structures to make more use out of Circle Throw.
Yea, I think Bax should at least be given a few days. Bax+A-Tails is the most obvious powerful thing you can be doing right now so people are going to be spamming the hell out of it which seems to be where at least SOME of the frustration with it is coming from. We have so many new tools and things to discover now that some time should be given to let people explore what actual counter-play might exist for it.
Is psychic terrain still good or just fell off at this point?
Yo rain's been kicking my ass, also there's been a bunch of screens setup teams running about.
I've been having fun with one of the new mons which might be considered a lot less viable:
Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Circle Throw
- Knock Off / Taunt
This fella has a bunch of nice characteristics that make it somewhat anti-meta at the moment, and it can come in and check multiple mons:
- Pretty much every rain mon (Basculegion, Floatzel, Barraskewda, Greninja,
- Crawdaunt
- Kingambit
- Hisuian Samurott
- Curse Dondozo
- Heatran
You can also make it come in against pre-boosted baxcalibur to disentivise it from boosting. I've been considering trying to run it on different hazard stacking structures to make more use out of Circle Throw.
This is one of the few Mons that have been viable in every single OU Tier across the generations, glad to see it with Knock as new toy (not glad to see Knock on everyone though).
Munkidori @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Fairy/Fighting
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Venoshock/Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball/Hex/U-Turn
A thing that I find interesting about Munkidori is that it can effectively give itself Toxic Infernal Parade with both Venoshock and Hex. With every attacking being able to Toxic the opponent 30% of the time except against Steels, Poison, and some other exceptions.
This means that very often you’ll find that Venoshock/Hex are almost consistently doing double damage after you have spread poison around. Thankfully unlike the Fezant, the Monkey actually has means to beat most Steel and Poison types with Focus Blast and Psychic STAB.
A major drawback of the entire Loyal trio is that Gholdengo is immune or resists their STABs, so luckily for Munkidori you get pretty good coverage in Shadow Ball, which can 2HKO even defensive Gholdengo.
252 SpA Munkidori Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 190-224 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Munkidori Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 190-224 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hex does even more if you manage to burn it with Scald or Paralyze it with Discharge.
But because of Gholdengo I would more often recommend Shadow Ball as a reliable means of damage against such a specific counter. You can also U-turn as well if you have teammates that can deal with Gholdengo effectively.
As for Teras, Fairy and Fighting are great for Munkidori because of another huge threat to Munki being Kingambit and namely Sucker Punch. Fairy is weak to Iron Head sure, you do keep your Fighting resist and you can also troll Baxcalibur. You’re also not weak to Fairy like you would be with Fighting, which comes into play with Enamorus and Iron Valiant. Again a bunch of different nuances depending on your team.
Munkidori looks like the best Loyal trio member and having the most diversity in sets too. It is a bit slow for how frail it is, but it can be pretty threatening with actually good status spreading and solid offense.
- Status