it got on the radar around the same time other broken stupid fucking pokemon were on the tier, and very quickly after those were banned, people stopped spamming screens and no one cared anymore
screens is only as good as the gap of the best sweepers in the tier, ie. baxcalibur already had very little that stopped it from sweeping every team, so the nudge of AV is easy to justify
but when you ban the brokemons and suddenly you are down to good pokemon that also have way more checks, putting up screens is just not worth it on most teams, including most HO. Kingambit may be insane and I want it banned, but most of the counterplay is the same with or without screens, ie. Burn + Bulk Up Tusk (pre tera lol) + Encore. Taking more hits is cool and all, but not only does a Pokemon like Kingambit work better when most of the opposing team is already chipped, but also attacking it is not really the counterplay.
Baxcalibur only had two forms of counterplay. 1. Booster Valiant (one time check), 2. Revenge killing it. Veil removed that.
Now let's look at other Pokemon in the tier, currently. Ursaluna BloodMoon is a good candidate for screens, except the way fat deals with it anyways is to try and put it on a timer. Plus, most Ursa BM don't even run screens along with it, because it doesn't need screens. Only things like Ogrepon can revenge it, and Tera Poison (also good for Gliscor Toxic bc it doesn't really care about EQ funnily) makes those inconsistent.
Manaphy is probably the best screens abuser left, and even then, it's honestly not all that. It has strong 4MSS, and honestly it usually still loses with a lot of the same checks most setup Pokemon have right now.
Halving damage for that long for "free" would be great if it was actually free, but you're all vastly overestimating Ninetales' actual ability to be a Pokemon in of itself. It isn't one.
Proclaiming its Special Attack is real is just not statistically true, especially when almost no one is investing in it.
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 162-192 (51.1 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 218-258 (68.7 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dragapult, a Dragon-Type with okay natural Special bulk, can lead against Alolan Ninetales and literally kill it.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales-Alola: 163-193 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO
This is if you don't go Modest, which I see a lot of Dragapult doing a-la endgame SWSH.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales-Alola: 180-213 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not only does Alolan-Ninetales not kill but also even if it clicks Veil, Infilitrator will kill it.
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 268-316 (89 - 104.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
I mean seriously it's only a very low chance to OHKO zero bulk Waterpon with a 4x STAB move. Of course you can get previous chip, but like you just are not using Alolan Ninetales as its own Pokemon.
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 256-304 (79.2 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 128-152 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 152-182 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 180-212 (35.7 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 152-182 (52.5 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 102-122 (35.2 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 228-270 (80 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 128-152 (31.7 - 37.7%) -- 87.1% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 138-164 (35.9 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 242-288 (75.3 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Walking Wake: 300-352 (88.4 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 220-264 (62.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 324-384 (92 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 244 HP / 76 SpD Gliscor: 292-348 (82.9 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
I mean, literally quad weak Pokemon can setup on this Pokemon, or 1v1 because they just live.
In terms of bulk, if you are running Light Clay you are also not running HDB, and now it is simply not walling anything, even at +1.
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ninetales-Alola in Snow: 157-186 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So, let's see. Alolan-Ninetales kinda sucks at killing anything, it kinda sucks at walling things. It kinda gets owned by Court Change which everyone is using, and the best thing it does is put up Veil, which has arguably no broken abusers.
Sounds like a splashable Highest Tier Pokemon to me!
By the way, I am not talking about this anymore. I will just ignore you.
Don't care about being ignored, I'm refuting this for others reading or potentially joining the conversation.
I feel like you're ignoring a few very significant things with this wall of Calcs, first and foremost being that killing most of this stuff has literally never been A-Ninetales's job, and unlike the spinner/Spiker Dynamic, it doesn't have to bat the thing in front of it to do its job, just not get KO'd before taking its turn. I also want to know what "4x weak" Pokemon in your listing is setting up on it, because Dragonite is the only one listed that isn't a roll to kill from full with an uninvested Freeze Dry. Even if I humor you that this proves something, that's prime revenge kill territory or even potential set up fodder in turn for something like Kingambit.
Many other preceding comments discussed things like Blizzard being available if power is the concern or how many set-up sweepers capitalize on Screens, so I want to question some other nitpickier stuff.
- Your Dragapult example uses it as the use case because Infiltrator ignores the Aurora Veil that forms the crux of this argument; if Specs Dragapult locks itself into Shadow Ball (identifiable by the Damage range) on the turn Ninetales Veils, that's not a 2HKO, that's free entry for Kingambit, Ursaluna Blood Moon, Samurott-H, Ting-Lu, Garganacl, Roaring Moon, or even some stuff people might be experimenting with as new toys like Bulletproof Kommo-o. Some of these mons are free Hazards and half of them will run over 2-3 Pokemon given a free turn to set-up (Especially Blood Moon who besides its usual shenanigans, doesn't even take Chip Damage or risk a SpD drop from the entry hit). It's a very specific example but now imagine this happening to any Pokemon who has to actually deal with the screens on top of having to predict what's coming in (if it's not Choiced and exploitable anyway)
- This is assuming offense is the only way A-Ninetales can respond to an opponent beyond putting up Veil, when it has options including Encore (so no free set-up) and Hypnosis (Sleep is never fun to deal with against an opponent with set up users). And if its bulk is so pitiful as you tout, why not put some EVs in SpA as some sets mix and match for specific KOs?
96 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 300-352 (99.6 - 116.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (higher chance since you consider a chance to OHKO from a Support mon to be insufficient)
- What are most of these Calcs even supposed to prove? Half of these Pokemon would be terrible leads as you assume Ninetales main position to be, but several of your own Calcs don't win with Ninetales coming into them either. Take your Gliscor for example
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ninetales-Alola in Snow: 87-103 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- 40.5% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 220-264 (62.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Ninetales comes in, eats 2 Earthquakes (one on Switch and one next turn) while getting that 2HKO with Freeze Dry, while Gliscor can't survive even with Protect for extra Poison Heal recovery (and wouldn't try because that's a chance for Ninetales to just Veil before killing it), and now the opponent is down their defensive Spiker. Most of these Calcs don't prove anything because they assume scenarios that won't happen either by the Ninetales Player's decision or the opponent's in any practical scenario, especially because no one is going to bother with a defensive response to a Pokemon who literally screams "get ready for the Set Up Storm" by taking a single turn.
-- For another one, you post an Ogerpon-Wellspring 2HKO after Stealth Rock as a show of Ninetales's low bulk, except if Ninetales is holding Light Clay to take that SR damage, why the hell is its first action not Aurora Veil to begin with (at which point fainting it can be ideal for the free switch in by a Set-up teammate or simply an easier Revenge Killer)? Furthermore, what is the scenario that bringing in a Veil Ninetales, with enough turns having passed for Stealth Rock to be up AND a Wellspring Ogerpon to have come in after the SR setter, is the ideal play instead of pivoting into something that does respond to said Ogerpon better than this does like Kingambit or Specs Valiant? This calc is numerically true but also is a scenario that is not going to happen in a real battle played between two competent players piloting teams beyond the two mons listed.
Whether or not Alolan Ninetales is High Viability (not sure why that's even controversial considering this just means its playstyle/contribution works well as opposed to being extremely common in use), the arguments you posted in this comment fails to respond to a recurring point (that quick Screens provides massive opportunity for many Pokemon even beyond standard HO) while just kind of flooding with a bunch of calcs that don't prove anything when put into context of an actual game, while assuming said Calcs demonstrate the extent of the Mon's performance while misunderstanding its role (assuming it fails as a team slot because it doesn't 1-2HKO many things or survive many powerful hits) and excluding major aspects of how it plays (ignoring 3 extremely relevant moves in Blizzard, Hypnosis, and Encore as well as the actual Veil).
