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Other Weather Effects(The First true test of the Cap project)
- Thread starter Luck
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The difference between your idea and this is that your idea implied changing already existing pokémon. It wasn't a bad idea at all (I like it, and I would support it in other circumstances), but it simply conflicted with the CAP theme.
On the other hand, I think weather inducers for Sunlight and Rain deserve a chance. But, to make those viable, we should have a few things clear: They shouldn't get the great stat spreads all CAP pokémon have received so far. As X-Act mentioned, an overall Stat Rating on the vicinity of Abomansnow's is pretty much mandatory. On the other hand, the abilities should be the "lite" version, that is, the ones that induce the weather for just a few turns. We could adjust the duration of the weather so it would not be broken, too: who says that the duration has to be either infinite, 8 or 5 turns? Maybe 3 or 4 will make a more balanced duration.
If you read my first post into this topic it clearly explain everything that needs to be explained, if you AGREE with this topic.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1146808&postcount=14
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1146808&postcount=14
Even though I think adding Auto Sun and Auto Rain would be broken, I am 100% willing to test it, so long as we add that weather remover.
And unlike the Kyogre / Groudon / Rayquaza pair, I expect the "third" one (Rayquaza) for our trio to remove the weather effects, not just "Air Lock" them.
Deck Knight also had the extremely intuitive point that we should make a weather inducer like Abomasnow (UU without the Weather), not like Tyranitar (in Adv without the Sand Boost it was clearly top 5 OU still).
Lower BST than usual (though I would prefer to follow any patterns realized using X-Act's method), possibly a less than auspicious defensive typing, etc.
And unlike the Kyogre / Groudon / Rayquaza pair, I expect the "third" one (Rayquaza) for our trio to remove the weather effects, not just "Air Lock" them.
Deck Knight also had the extremely intuitive point that we should make a weather inducer like Abomasnow (UU without the Weather), not like Tyranitar (in Adv without the Sand Boost it was clearly top 5 OU still).
Lower BST than usual (though I would prefer to follow any patterns realized using X-Act's method), possibly a less than auspicious defensive typing, etc.
I have asked this several times and no one has answered. If sun is such an offensive-boosting effect, why aren't there ANY legitimate OU sun teams in play today? As has been pointed out before, there ARE rain teams in OU play right now. Is it just because there are more viable rain abusers than sun abusers? Is it because Water and Electric are inherently better types than Fire and Grass?
Based on usage in OU, rain =/= sun. Yet, everyone talks about them like they are two sides of the same coin. Maybe that is the case in Ubers, but it's not in OU.
Based on usage in OU, rain =/= sun. Yet, everyone talks about them like they are two sides of the same coin. Maybe that is the case in Ubers, but it's not in OU.
Because it is much easier for Tyranitar to switch in and ruin your strategy against a Sun team than against a Rain team. Tyranitar won't dare switch into a Surf, but can easily switch into a Solarbeam (because it wouldn't work) and Fire moves (because it resists Fire).
That's because there's not a single good Chlorophyll user. Rain teams consist of Swift Swim users: Kingdra, Kabutops and Floatzel, mainly. Those have good enough power to utilize the boosted STAB and Swift Swim to outspeed everything.
So, I agree that, right now, sunshine is worse than rain. In fact, if I don't want Greenhouse nor Drought on the actual CAP project is not for the benefits it would bring to others, but for the benefits it would bring to itself. With an auto-sun ability, that 95 SpA would be much more scary, not because of the stat itself, but because it is accompanied a great secondary STAB in grass, and really bulky defenses. It would make this one self-sufficient, both at attacking and defending, while not benefiting other ones as much.
That's why I'd want Greenhouse, but on ANOTHER pokémon. One that uses it for the team, not for itself.
Maybe people suck at realizing its potential. I can only guess.
If there's one thing I'd like to add that hasn't been said already, it's that the addition of Greenhouse gives me a reason to run Air Lock Revenankh again.
Right. This thread has progressed to a point to which i am happy with, and i'm going to re-iterate an extremely Valid point already brought up:
After putting this to mu subconscience train of thought, i've come up with the conclusion that Weather, on the whole, needs to be overhauled. Here is a list of weathers and their effects, almost straight from Serebii:
Sunshine:
Fire Moves have their base power bumped up by 50% (1 stage).
Water moves have their base power bumped down by 50% (1 stage).
Solar Beam charge is cancelled.
Thunder's accuracy drops to 50%.
Synthesis, Morning sun and Moonlight recover 66% (.____.)
Chlorophyll Pokemon have their speed STAT Doubled.
Dry Skin pokemon take 2X more from fire attacks and lose (IIRC it's 12%) Hp per turn.
Flower Gift pokemon have themselves and their allies Attack stats boosted by 1 stage.
Leaf Guard pokemon are IMMUNE to status (!!!)
Solar Power pokemon have a Hp drain, but have their Special Attack bumped up.
Castform turns into a fire type, and Weather Ball becomes a 100BP Fire move.
Rain:
Fire Moves have their base power bumped Down by 50% (1 stage).
Water moves have their base power bumped up by 50% (1 stage).
Solar beam charge DOUBLES when rain is ACTIVATED.
Thunder's accuracy is 100% perfect (!!) And hits through Protect and Detect 25% of the time (!!!)
Synthesis, Morning sun and Moonlight recover 25% of hp (!?)
Dry Skin pokemon recover (12%?) health per turn.
Pokemon with the Hydration ability recover from status effects at the end of the turn (!!)
Pokemon with the Rain Dish ability have an additional "Leftovers Effect"
Swift Swim pokemon have their speed STAT Doubled.
Castform turns into a Water type, and Weather Ball becomes a 100BP Water move.
Hail:
Non Ice type pokemon get hit 6% Damage a turn.(!!)
Blizzard's accuracy is 100% perfect (!!) And hits through Protect and Detect 25% of the time (!!!)
Synthesis, Morning sun and Moonlight recover 25% of hp (!?)
Ice Body Pokemon have an additional "Leftovers Effect"
Snow Cloak pokemon have "Motherfucking Hax Veil" Activated (!!!!)
Castform turns into an Ice type, and Weather ball becomes a 100BP Ice move.
Sandstorm:
Non Rock/Ground/Steel pokemon get hit 6% damage a turn(!!)
Rock type pokemon's special defence gets a 1 stage boost (!!, but only where applicable. Stuff like Golem and Rhyperior still die to SE Special moves =\)
Thunder's Accuracy drops to 50%.
Synthesis, Morning sun and Moonlight recover 25% of hp (!?)
Sand Veil pokemon have "Motherfucking Hax Veil" Activated (!!!!)
Weather ball becomes a 100bp Rock move.
These are all the effects that have an influence on competitive gameplay. Obviously when the benefits are put together, we can clearly see that sun has the most benefits, Rain has the second most, And Hail and SS have the least, but obviously have advantages in HaxVeil abilities.
The counters list is something like this:
Sun is countered by SS -> Tar switches in, recieves a 1.5X SpD boost and takes a fire attack like a champ.
Rain is countered by hail -> Obama switches in, and using his democratic charms resists the water attack like the sea bashing against his steadfast campaign.
SS is countered by Mixed sweepers/random abusers (Garchomp, a staple OU says hi, and mixed sweepers like Infernape and Syclant tear through SS teams, because on the whole those types have a low SpD, barring Registeel, but i'm sure an OU team can deal with it.)
Hail is countered by Heatran/SS -> Heatran kills shit with Fire blast/Earth power/Tar comes in and either sets up or gets a SpD boost, except for Syclant, which is handled by a PSweeper.
Obviously everything seems to have it's benefits. However, why then are Sun and Rain not seriously a competitively viable option?
This lies in the answer that Perma SS and hail absolutly decimate teams like that. In a way, i'm sure GF Intended that to balance stuff out, but in reality they have made them unviable, especially when Tyranitar was fucking top tier OU in GSC. (I remember when Pursuit was considered nooby because of tar's 134 base attack vs 95 SpA).
What we can do to fix this up is something like this.
1. Make everything have an auto weather effect. Say, mini Kyogre/Groudon for OU.
2. Playtest that for a week/few weeks
3. Sit back and determine how this effects the metagame. Find out what teams are running rampant, then nerf that Weather effect.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3.
Or, like being brought up, we can just chuck Auto weather and give a weather stopper.
Either way, i can see this being a HUGE Implication on the Metagame. We need to do some serious Theorymon beforehand though, to balance stuff out, followed by some serious playtesting. However, this needs to be planned out step by step and discussed, like has been brought up, by the best players and the Gods of theorymon. What is a given though, is that like IRL, we'd be better off making stuff overpowered and then gradually nerfing it. Not only does it make more sense, it fufills the statement
"God giveth, God Taketh away."
I mean, whoever heard of something like this:
"God Taketh away, then god saw that people did indeed like chocolate, so god giveth the chocolate back"
In other words, we're looking to perfect the metagame by trial and error.CAP Mission Statement said:
After putting this to mu subconscience train of thought, i've come up with the conclusion that Weather, on the whole, needs to be overhauled. Here is a list of weathers and their effects, almost straight from Serebii:
Sunshine:
Fire Moves have their base power bumped up by 50% (1 stage).
Water moves have their base power bumped down by 50% (1 stage).
Solar Beam charge is cancelled.
Thunder's accuracy drops to 50%.
Synthesis, Morning sun and Moonlight recover 66% (.____.)
Chlorophyll Pokemon have their speed STAT Doubled.
Dry Skin pokemon take 2X more from fire attacks and lose (IIRC it's 12%) Hp per turn.
Flower Gift pokemon have themselves and their allies Attack stats boosted by 1 stage.
Leaf Guard pokemon are IMMUNE to status (!!!)
Solar Power pokemon have a Hp drain, but have their Special Attack bumped up.
Castform turns into a fire type, and Weather Ball becomes a 100BP Fire move.
Rain:
Fire Moves have their base power bumped Down by 50% (1 stage).
Water moves have their base power bumped up by 50% (1 stage).
Solar beam charge DOUBLES when rain is ACTIVATED.
Thunder's accuracy is 100% perfect (!!) And hits through Protect and Detect 25% of the time (!!!)
Synthesis, Morning sun and Moonlight recover 25% of hp (!?)
Dry Skin pokemon recover (12%?) health per turn.
Pokemon with the Hydration ability recover from status effects at the end of the turn (!!)
Pokemon with the Rain Dish ability have an additional "Leftovers Effect"
Swift Swim pokemon have their speed STAT Doubled.
Castform turns into a Water type, and Weather Ball becomes a 100BP Water move.
Hail:
Non Ice type pokemon get hit 6% Damage a turn.(!!)
Blizzard's accuracy is 100% perfect (!!) And hits through Protect and Detect 25% of the time (!!!)
Synthesis, Morning sun and Moonlight recover 25% of hp (!?)
Ice Body Pokemon have an additional "Leftovers Effect"
Snow Cloak pokemon have "Motherfucking Hax Veil" Activated (!!!!)
Castform turns into an Ice type, and Weather ball becomes a 100BP Ice move.
Sandstorm:
Non Rock/Ground/Steel pokemon get hit 6% damage a turn(!!)
Rock type pokemon's special defence gets a 1 stage boost (!!, but only where applicable. Stuff like Golem and Rhyperior still die to SE Special moves =\)
Thunder's Accuracy drops to 50%.
Synthesis, Morning sun and Moonlight recover 25% of hp (!?)
Sand Veil pokemon have "Motherfucking Hax Veil" Activated (!!!!)
Weather ball becomes a 100bp Rock move.
These are all the effects that have an influence on competitive gameplay. Obviously when the benefits are put together, we can clearly see that sun has the most benefits, Rain has the second most, And Hail and SS have the least, but obviously have advantages in HaxVeil abilities.
The counters list is something like this:
Sun is countered by SS -> Tar switches in, recieves a 1.5X SpD boost and takes a fire attack like a champ.
Rain is countered by hail -> Obama switches in, and using his democratic charms resists the water attack like the sea bashing against his steadfast campaign.
SS is countered by Mixed sweepers/random abusers (Garchomp, a staple OU says hi, and mixed sweepers like Infernape and Syclant tear through SS teams, because on the whole those types have a low SpD, barring Registeel, but i'm sure an OU team can deal with it.)
Hail is countered by Heatran/SS -> Heatran kills shit with Fire blast/Earth power/Tar comes in and either sets up or gets a SpD boost, except for Syclant, which is handled by a PSweeper.
Obviously everything seems to have it's benefits. However, why then are Sun and Rain not seriously a competitively viable option?
This lies in the answer that Perma SS and hail absolutly decimate teams like that. In a way, i'm sure GF Intended that to balance stuff out, but in reality they have made them unviable, especially when Tyranitar was fucking top tier OU in GSC. (I remember when Pursuit was considered nooby because of tar's 134 base attack vs 95 SpA).
What we can do to fix this up is something like this.
1. Make everything have an auto weather effect. Say, mini Kyogre/Groudon for OU.
2. Playtest that for a week/few weeks
3. Sit back and determine how this effects the metagame. Find out what teams are running rampant, then nerf that Weather effect.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3.
Or, like being brought up, we can just chuck Auto weather and give a weather stopper.
Either way, i can see this being a HUGE Implication on the Metagame. We need to do some serious Theorymon beforehand though, to balance stuff out, followed by some serious playtesting. However, this needs to be planned out step by step and discussed, like has been brought up, by the best players and the Gods of theorymon. What is a given though, is that like IRL, we'd be better off making stuff overpowered and then gradually nerfing it. Not only does it make more sense, it fufills the statement
"God giveth, God Taketh away."
I mean, whoever heard of something like this:
"God Taketh away, then god saw that people did indeed like chocolate, so god giveth the chocolate back"
When will this myth die?
http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/solarbeam
Charges up turn 1, then attacks on turn 2. Has no charge up turn in Sun, but has half power in Hail, Rain, or Sandstorm.
FWIW, I have a Sunny Day OU team that I've been using more or less exclusively on Shoddy as of late that consists of SunnyD Weezing/SD Chomp/CM Cress/Specs Heatran/SunnyD & Morning Sun Tangrowth/Variable. (Woodman will likely go into that variable slot once it's done.) Tangrowth's the only Chlorophyll user there, but imo Sun abusers extend past Chlorophyll and Heatran. Moonlight becomes a viable form of healing for Cress, for one, and Pokemon with a Fire move become that much more dangerous. (Mixed Electivire comes to mind suddenly. o_O)
I think that people tend to think that just because Rain teams = Swift Swim abuse, Sun teams have to = Chlorophyll abuse. Rain is more or less forced to use Swift Swim and perfect Thunder for offensive options, because that's really all they get and you can't load up on Water moves to use the boost without loading up on Water Pokemon. Sun teams have to be different because, frankly, most Chlorophyll users suck compared to their Swift Swim counterparts, and Fire moves are available on more than just Fire types. Solar Power is also an extra offensive option Sun gets over Rain, but both users of it suck balls, unfortunately.
Going off on a slight tangent, a Pokemon that functions well on any weather team imo is Roserade for one reason: Weather Ball. As soon as the weather goes up, it gets a 100 BP move that can beat Fire types in the rain, other Grass and Steel types in the sun, every Dragon ever in Hail if it's Scarfed, and more Fire types in Sand.
*inserts $0.02*
I think we should have a CAP project where we go through the attack listings of all the Pokemon and sift out the unnecessary to create more balance as well as give each Pokemon more of their own personality (instead of asking yourself, "shit, which Fire type am I going to use today, they all have solarbeam and fireblast").
But that's just me.
This. This. This.
Tyranitar could have been a selfish weather user, but he is accompanied by so many other good sandies (Chomp, Glis, Swampert -- ect.).
Long post coming, but it is an attempt to propose a way out of the mess we have brewing with our Fire/Grass creation. This isn't for project newbs, but it appears that the people on this thread are project diehards and know what they are talking about. So, I'm just gonna let it fly and I hope you stay with me through to the end.
First off, I need to say that this project is working EXACTLY as it is designed to work. For everyone acting like Chicken Little and saying the sky is falling, you really are missing the point. Go read the "What is the CAP Project?" sticky. The point of the project is the process and investigation of the underlying mechanics of the metagame. As process goes, this latest creation has been spectacular. The investigation of stats was wonderful. And this latest debate on weather has been truly enthralling. Aside from all the worthless melodramatic "We're all doomed if it gets sun!" comments -- it has been great to see all the discussion on how weather affects the game.
I really don't care if this pokemon gets auto-weather or not. The fundamental nature of this project leads to jigsaw-puzzle pokemon. Since each piece is constructed somewhat independently of the others, the end result is always somewhat of a Frankenstein's monster. The only way to solve that, is to have individuals or small tight-knit committees create pokemon that are cohesive. But that's not the point of this project. We don't operate like that.
The CAP project is an open cattle call to anyone that wants to participate. It's a democratic process and everyone has an equal say in each poll. I know some people think they are fucking geniuses and "know what's best for the metagame". Well, you don't. If you really do, then go make your own pokemon project and have fun with it. By the way, that's been done a million times before. You'll have a grand total of two or three people clapping for your beautifully-crafted puissant pokemon creation.
The CAP project has thousands of members for a reason. And it's not because we let a few know-it-alls try to lord their superior opinions over the unwashed idiots that think auto-sun would be fun to play. It's because we give everyone a voice and vote. I'm fine with creative disputes. But the latest round of superior indignation we're getting from the most knowledgeable members of the project is starting to piss me off. It happens on every project, but this one is reaching a fever pitch. So cool it. Quit acting like the world will come to an end if this pokemon gets auto-sun. Your attitude is "bad for business". And our business is promoting open discussion and debate on advanced competitive play. This pokemon is succeeding wonderfully in that regard, and if you don't get it -- then please go somewhere else. We are not making YOUR pokemon. We are making OUR pokemon. Remember that.
Now onto my proposal.
I've been thinking about all the intense interest in weather, which has been more lively than other topics in the past. I'd like to capitalize on that, and possibly quell the current furor at the same time. Deck Knight's suggestion is a fantastic way to achieve both goals.
I think we should make the next project a split project. We make a Red Team and a Blue Team. Any CAP member can join either team, but not both. Once you have "registered" on a team, you can't switch. The Red team makes an auto-sun poke, the Blue Team makes an auto-rain poke.
As a community, before teams are declared we will vote on the "common" stuff, like base typing for the pokes. Perhaps Fire/Dragon and Water/Dragon. Perhaps Fire/Normal and Water/Normal. Maybe just Fire and Water. Maybe just Normal for both. I don't really care. But, we'll decide it beforehand. We'll also settle on base stat rating. We'll even decide the exact mechanics of the weather abilities (permaweather vs limited turns, etc). After that, each team goes their own way and makes their poke. We implement both on the server and "fight it out" for bragging rights.
I think it could be great fun. Everyone could get involved. It's a classic Groudon vs. Kyogre kind of thing. Fits a pokemon project perfectly. I could see it being a huge hit.
Here's the part that will make many of you in this thread happy. If we are going to have a project like that next -- it really doesn't make sense to allow an auto-weather ability on this Fire/Grass pokemon. Since we have bigger plans for auto-weather, we'll impose executive privilege on the current ability poll and remove Greenhouse from the voting slate. We can leave the poll open for another day or two, so people can modify their votes. It will be a disruption to the current poke, but it would be for the greater good. The next project will do weather in a big way, and we could make it a "Create-A-Pokemon Event Spectacle"
What do you think?
First off, I need to say that this project is working EXACTLY as it is designed to work. For everyone acting like Chicken Little and saying the sky is falling, you really are missing the point. Go read the "What is the CAP Project?" sticky. The point of the project is the process and investigation of the underlying mechanics of the metagame. As process goes, this latest creation has been spectacular. The investigation of stats was wonderful. And this latest debate on weather has been truly enthralling. Aside from all the worthless melodramatic "We're all doomed if it gets sun!" comments -- it has been great to see all the discussion on how weather affects the game.
I really don't care if this pokemon gets auto-weather or not. The fundamental nature of this project leads to jigsaw-puzzle pokemon. Since each piece is constructed somewhat independently of the others, the end result is always somewhat of a Frankenstein's monster. The only way to solve that, is to have individuals or small tight-knit committees create pokemon that are cohesive. But that's not the point of this project. We don't operate like that.
The CAP project is an open cattle call to anyone that wants to participate. It's a democratic process and everyone has an equal say in each poll. I know some people think they are fucking geniuses and "know what's best for the metagame". Well, you don't. If you really do, then go make your own pokemon project and have fun with it. By the way, that's been done a million times before. You'll have a grand total of two or three people clapping for your beautifully-crafted puissant pokemon creation.
The CAP project has thousands of members for a reason. And it's not because we let a few know-it-alls try to lord their superior opinions over the unwashed idiots that think auto-sun would be fun to play. It's because we give everyone a voice and vote. I'm fine with creative disputes. But the latest round of superior indignation we're getting from the most knowledgeable members of the project is starting to piss me off. It happens on every project, but this one is reaching a fever pitch. So cool it. Quit acting like the world will come to an end if this pokemon gets auto-sun. Your attitude is "bad for business". And our business is promoting open discussion and debate on advanced competitive play. This pokemon is succeeding wonderfully in that regard, and if you don't get it -- then please go somewhere else. We are not making YOUR pokemon. We are making OUR pokemon. Remember that.
Now onto my proposal.
I've been thinking about all the intense interest in weather, which has been more lively than other topics in the past. I'd like to capitalize on that, and possibly quell the current furor at the same time. Deck Knight's suggestion is a fantastic way to achieve both goals.
I think we should make the next project a split project. We make a Red Team and a Blue Team. Any CAP member can join either team, but not both. Once you have "registered" on a team, you can't switch. The Red team makes an auto-sun poke, the Blue Team makes an auto-rain poke.
As a community, before teams are declared we will vote on the "common" stuff, like base typing for the pokes. Perhaps Fire/Dragon and Water/Dragon. Perhaps Fire/Normal and Water/Normal. Maybe just Fire and Water. Maybe just Normal for both. I don't really care. But, we'll decide it beforehand. We'll also settle on base stat rating. We'll even decide the exact mechanics of the weather abilities (permaweather vs limited turns, etc). After that, each team goes their own way and makes their poke. We implement both on the server and "fight it out" for bragging rights.
I think it could be great fun. Everyone could get involved. It's a classic Groudon vs. Kyogre kind of thing. Fits a pokemon project perfectly. I could see it being a huge hit.
Here's the part that will make many of you in this thread happy. If we are going to have a project like that next -- it really doesn't make sense to allow an auto-weather ability on this Fire/Grass pokemon. Since we have bigger plans for auto-weather, we'll impose executive privilege on the current ability poll and remove Greenhouse from the voting slate. We can leave the poll open for another day or two, so people can modify their votes. It will be a disruption to the current poke, but it would be for the greater good. The next project will do weather in a big way, and we could make it a "Create-A-Pokemon Event Spectacle"
What do you think?
I've liked this ever since DK brought it up back on page... 3 or 4 I think? The only "drawback" is that standard polls would'nt be viable, only bolded votes. That's good enough though.
DJD, I think in a few more years, you might be able to challenge Jumpman16 for the title of "Ruler of Wall-o-Texts". :P
Anyway... I like the idea, though I wonder about how bad the flaming might become if the community is actively divided like that.
Also, I'd suggest that if we do go that direction, that art/sprite be open to anyone, but that's mostly a stylistic concern, not a substanstive one.
Anyway... I like the idea, though I wonder about how bad the flaming might become if the community is actively divided like that.
Also, I'd suggest that if we do go that direction, that art/sprite be open to anyone, but that's mostly a stylistic concern, not a substanstive one.
Long as there are standard paragraphs, it's all good. It's the one's that look like walls rather than bricks that are painful.
Just make it clear that if that happens, infractions will occur.
Agreed. There aren't enough artists to split them up.
I completely agree with this. It solves pretty much most of the issues currently going on.
Yeah, I talk too much IRL too.
Agreed on the art. Artists could contribute across teams.
great idea until it gets to comepetitive and then people try to outdo each other with two broken monsters.
Hey Blue team just added 5 special points to their creation lets add 10 back and forth. Then there the very realistic chance of all the theorymon going to shit and all of sudden the pokemon are not as balanced to each other as we thought, then only one is really used.
Auto fire is basically already starting at a disadvantage solely based on waters being able to hit it super effective, being generally a better type and having a wider range and better pokemon.
Two projects at the same time but all done by the same people working together.
Its more then just voting on any old extra type that the community think's is cool there needs to be a huge topic before this starts about how you make it as balanced as possible, how you can put fire on par with water, etc.
Hey Blue team just added 5 special points to their creation lets add 10 back and forth. Then there the very realistic chance of all the theorymon going to shit and all of sudden the pokemon are not as balanced to each other as we thought, then only one is really used.
Auto fire is basically already starting at a disadvantage solely based on waters being able to hit it super effective, being generally a better type and having a wider range and better pokemon.
Two projects at the same time but all done by the same people working together.
Its more then just voting on any old extra type that the community think's is cool there needs to be a huge topic before this starts about how you make it as balanced as possible, how you can put fire on par with water, etc.
I like the idea except the "red team" "blue team" bit, it does not fit with the include everyone thing.
Running two at the same time with one being sun and one being rain can work be we should let everyone vote on everything rather than make artificial barriers to discussion and voting.
Running two at the same time with one being sun and one being rain can work be we should let everyone vote on everything rather than make artificial barriers to discussion and voting.
Just personal opinion. Just like most people mentioned, if Woodman gets Greenhouse, then that thing is most definitely another Uber.
Free Solar Beam (no charge), Synthesis gives HUGE heals, with base 120 HP and decent defenses, that thing is practically unstopable. Now, a Sunny Day stabbed Fire Blast, on top of that stack Hidden Power Ground (for Heatran), that thing can mostly dominate.
Free Solar Beam (no charge), Synthesis gives HUGE heals, with base 120 HP and decent defenses, that thing is practically unstopable. Now, a Sunny Day stabbed Fire Blast, on top of that stack Hidden Power Ground (for Heatran), that thing can mostly dominate.
This is why typing, rating value, etc etc would be decided beforehand. Can't outclass the other team if a maximum rating value of say... 275 is given.
And Sun gets the advantage by benefitting grass pokemon too. Rain only benefits water.
While a good idea, people could end up subconsciously being counterproductive to one because they want the other to be better.
Why? Imagine it more like Sun and Rain are both the same project, just different substeps. Everyone can vote, they just have to choose where they vote.
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