If there is an auto weather affect, one can always just run an auto rain team, with things like Bulk Up+Focus Sash Floatsel which can guarantee BPing a Bulk Up with its insane speed as well as a Mixed Kingdra. With things like Gorebyss and other massively fast things people could easily get in boosts. Lanturn could serve as a pseudo rain dance 'counter' with STAB 100% accurate Thunders and free recovery off of water attacks, but if you have a rain dancing team Sunny Day teams have an inherent disadvantage. Especially if you do things like put Flamethrower Slowbro and other fire attacks on your team to take care of SolarBeaming Grass types. The sheer power you could have with Auto Rain Dance teams is simply staggering, and I wouldn't support that.
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Other Weather Effects(The First true test of the Cap project)
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I vote adding a White team, which makes a Snow Warning Pokemon.
If thats a problem when it's a project they are involved in, think of the trouble it would cause with a project they are not involved in and are trying to make another project as good. I can already see the amount of people posting " ok give it 105 special attack because theres does, not even accounting for movepool and typing. 105 special attack means something completly different for say a rock pokemon then a grass, i am worried people will look past this.
I think we would get a better response from letting everyone vote everywhere then dividing people into teams, its just not needed.
Sure we could have everybody do both. But, I think splitting up into "teams" would be great fun. Since the project would start out unified, I'm not too worried about it "dividing the community". It's just a little twist on the normal process. It would not exclude anyone. Everyone can participate, just pick a side. This isn't a gang war, it's just a CAP project. I doubt the rivalry would get intense.
I suggested adding another Snow Warning Pokemon because there are two Sand Stream Pokemon and Abomasnow isn't all that great.
I don't see the need for it, and can see some possible problems coming from it, if its just for novelty we will be getting enough of that from the "3 in one aspect" already IMO.
Anyway the 3rd of the trio (if thats what were doing, come to the server we talked about it there) should not be hail, it should be when this Pokemon is switched in all weather effects are removed (not air lock, permanent).
The reason Woodman is getting such fierce objections to Drought/Greenhouse is *because* it's so good.
I admit to being puzzled as to why it's okay for something as unbelievelably OU as Tyranitar to get excellent stats *and* Sand Stream, but I can almost guarentee you that the two new Pokemon suggested will also fall under the category of 'not all that great'.
I admit to being puzzled as to why it's okay for something as unbelievelably OU as Tyranitar to get excellent stats *and* Sand Stream, but I can almost guarentee you that the two new Pokemon suggested will also fall under the category of 'not all that great'.
We got an 9 page topic alot of that was flames based just on people arguing over sunny day on a project that everyone is involved in. You don't think people are gonna start bitching and wanting to make their idea better.
DJD, that idea is simply genius. Connecticut Compromise FTW. I also like the idea of teams; a little competitiveness could inspire even better art, at the very least. I agree with Dane, as long as BSTs are decided before the split, I think the one Poke won't be ridiculously outclassing the other 'un.
We can add a third one two years later. Yellow team, anyone?
We can add a third one two years later. Yellow team, anyone?
That's why we would do BST like was done with Woodman. In the sense that select people who won't be crazy enough to do that will submit ideas. Or better yet, have those who are submitting them not even post them beforehand, so that they all appear at the same time. They can easily discuss amongst themselves to prevent "mirror stats" and such.
Wouldn't surprise me.
bst doesn't come into it at all you could take two pokemon one water one fire,give them the exact same spread and equivalent moves,ability. Chances are the water would get much more use or be a better pokemon, thats just how the metagame sits.
Then your asking people to hold of giving something less moves then the other teams thing, becuase of this reason alot are not gonna see why and not accept it.
Water is just naturally better in the metagame you tell people to make two pokemon exactly balanced and the water gets more use. Auto rain is a better weather then Auto Sun, so why would people use Auto Sun if they have the exact same pokemon using Auto Rain.
Then your asking people to hold of giving something less moves then the other teams thing, becuase of this reason alot are not gonna see why and not accept it.
Water is just naturally better in the metagame you tell people to make two pokemon exactly balanced and the water gets more use. Auto rain is a better weather then Auto Sun, so why would people use Auto Sun if they have the exact same pokemon using Auto Rain.
I don't know, I see a lot of Steel, Ice, and Grass types these days. Could probably hit those easier with fire, wouldn't you think?
Wha? Who said this and... wha?
That's because of the Water Pokemon available vs the Fire Pokemon available. Water Pokemon are given bulk, stat ups, healing, etc. Fire Pokemon are given Flareon and Torkoal.
Though I do see your point, it'd be hard to counter that considering we can't unmake Water Pokemon.
We could have the two TL's work together, to make sure they keep both projects mutually aligned. If people start into unproductive flaming and bitching, then we'll infract them and move on. It's not too hard to keep this in line.
In general, whether we do a Red/Blue thing or not -- I'm considering adopting a hardline stance on all the unproductive bitching we get in the poll topics. I'm really getting sick of it, and it drags down the whole project. All it takes is seeing a few people getting banned for being unproductive wet dishrags, and people will start watching what they say and how they say it.
I want to encourage enthusiasm on these projects, not curb it. Anyone that wants to stand in the way of that, will quickly find out that they are not "entitled" to shit all over everything we do here.
Actually I take back my initial post. If the plan that was just described gets started in one form or another, it seems like you'd be able to manage everything to keep some sense of balance in the metagame. Though I still think it'd be borderline overpowered, there's no real way to know until we go out and test it.
If we test out some flavour of auto weather and it works, then fine we get an entirely new dimension to the CAP metagame. And if it is obviously broken, then we could change it.
The only problem I see is if during testing we are unable to decide whether or not it's broken. But unlike the non-CAP OU, the crowd here is slightly smaller, and if we need to, we could have some sort of committee type thing with DJD, some of the TL's and that type to just make an administrative decision about it.
If we test out some flavour of auto weather and it works, then fine we get an entirely new dimension to the CAP metagame. And if it is obviously broken, then we could change it.
The only problem I see is if during testing we are unable to decide whether or not it's broken. But unlike the non-CAP OU, the crowd here is slightly smaller, and if we need to, we could have some sort of committee type thing with DJD, some of the TL's and that type to just make an administrative decision about it.
The whole idea of a team project sounds awesome. Thing is, i think that we really should be looking at the weather effects themselves and looking to balance them out before we go and do the auto rain, otherwise like said in the OP weather will start to over centralize the metagame. We end up with something in the Current UU: Teams that run Pinser and low BL/UU always win. Same will happen in OU: Weather teams with Insta-Forever sun will always win, unless countered my another weather effect, in which case it comes down to who takes down the oppositions "Weather Titans" First.
Instead of just imposing this idea on the project based on a few hours of discussion in this thread, I'm thinking about posting a one-day click poll to vote on it. The purpose is not to fully define the CAP Weather Project right this second. The purpose is to determine if the community thinks a Weather project would be a fun thing for next time; in which case, Greenhouse should be removed from current consideration. The poll options would be really simple:
- Keep moving forward with the current ability poll
- Begin defining a dedicated weather project for next time AND remove Greenhouse from the current ability poll
Opinions?
- Keep moving forward with the current ability poll
- Begin defining a dedicated weather project for next time AND remove Greenhouse from the current ability poll
Opinions?
I'm all for making two pokes at the same time. I don't like the team idea however. What if someone on the other team has the greatest idea ever for the other poke? They can post it in the topic, but who will take them seriously thinking that because they are on the other team, it is a sabbotage mission? I could be over thinking this because I'm sure the TLs will have control over this, but I just can't get that idea out of my head. Do we really want to split up all of our minds when they could be combined to make the best possible thing?
EDIT: Good idea on the poll Doug.
EDIT: Good idea on the poll Doug.
Consider all the details I have mentioned up to now as "suggestions". Nothing will be set in stone right now. Based on the poll, we will simply commit to the next project being a "Weather Project". If the community votes for that, we will immediately open a workshop thread and start hashing out details. I think that is better than trying to decide anything here.
This also allows us to quickly resolve the current dispute in the CAP 3 polls. Maybe we should close the ability thread temporarily while the "weather project" poll is open. After the poll is decided, we reopen the ability thread and move on.
This also allows us to quickly resolve the current dispute in the CAP 3 polls. Maybe we should close the ability thread temporarily while the "weather project" poll is open. After the poll is decided, we reopen the ability thread and move on.
From what I gather even if we break up into two 'teams' as it were there would still be a lot of joint decesions. If we're trying to make two even Pokemon, a 'duo' as it were, then they would need quite a few of the same things. Their BST would be the same to ensure evenness. Typing would have to be managed to ensure eveness, and even movepools to some extent would be opposite in their primary STABs.
I totally want this weather stopper to be a rouge though with 600 BST :P
I totally want this weather stopper to be a rouge though with 600 BST :P
Really, the only things that the different teams would be working on are:
- Stlye (Offensive/Defensive) Bias
- Build (Physical/Special/Mixed) Bias
- BST spreads
- Movepool
- Name
Doug, I like your idea there. It would be interesting to see what the community as a whole thinks about it. I support your plan. I also want to bring something up that was mention in the ability poll.
Not sure if that's a good suggestion towards Greenhouse or not, but I wanted to see what you make of it.
I think we should draw heavily from Kyogre/Groudon, Ho-oh/Lugia, and Palkia/Dialga if we do this. From what I can see, all of these duos were made by one team whose goal it was to make the similar enough to be considered a duo and then mirrored the rest of stuff.
I also think doing Special = Rain and Physical = Sun again would be boring, but that should probably come in later.
I also think doing Special = Rain and Physical = Sun again would be boring, but that should probably come in later.
OK, I'm going to create a poll with the options I mentioned above. Should I close the ability poll while we vote on this? The ability poll may be very different if the Weather Project is "approved". I think we should shut it down pending the results of the weather project poll. GT, what do you think?
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