Why complex bans are a waste. + My proposal (friendly discussion)

[jas61292]

And it also depends on WHO is biased. There are a lot of people who liked Blaziken, too. But nobody listened to them, not even the ones that weren't me. But first Kabutops, Kingdra, and Ludicolo, and next Smeargle, Huntail, and Gorebyss, were complex banned.

We have to complex ban all of them or none of them.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying though. Sure someone is going to like every Pokemon, and would be biased on any potential ban. However, in the case of Blaziken, voters deemed it broken so it was banned in its entirety. It was 100% about brokenness, and 0% about favoritism. However, if we had said "Blaziken is Uber, but if we don't let it have Speed Boost it won't be, so we'll just ban that," then we suddenly are saying that we do not want Blaziken in Ubers, even though it is broken. And if we can say that, why can't we find a way to un-break any Pokemon that enough people like?

By having simple bans, a Pokemon is either Uber or not, and we are not picking favorites and crippling then in order to keep them in OU.

 

[Stratos]

Lancenighmare, you probably made some good points in that post. Unfortunately, I. Can't understand it. Because you put. Periods after. Every other word.

Edit: I take it back. A bloody Dunsparce can be over 500 attack after a SD. Your proposal is retarded.

For future, swords dance DOUBLES attack.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

You have a point. Landorus is pretty strong in the sand though. If drizzle were gone it would be top 10 easily. The only issue it has is beating rotom and stuff like ferrothorn. But you can solve that with a swords dance set. But then you lose the chance to hit gliscor. The substitute set in the sand is pretty much game over if you don't have rain up or a scarm or bronzong.

Oh yes, I know Landorus is strong as shit, I used one instead of Excadrill for two Rounds and it was amazing. But still, if Landorus is going to be top 10 after this Round's bans, then so be it, we'll find out whether it's broken or not down the line, not today.

 

[GreenWater10]

You have good points, and I agree with those bans being stupid. I don't get why shell smash and baton pass is banned, and I didn't even know it was banned until reading this. If they banned baton pass and shell smash, why not ban quiver dance and baton pass. That basically does the same thing.

 

[Pocket]

Shell Smash + Baton Pass is not banned. It's not even nominated.

 

[jas61292]

Shell Smash + Baton Pass is not banned. It's not even nominated.

Actually, while it may not have been in OU, it was in UU, and just missed being banned there, being just a vote or so shy of a super majority. Whiile it may not have been banned, it is certainly relevant in a discussion about complex bans and Somgon's policies on them.

 

[dwarfstar]

Aldaron's proposal, while presumably well-intentioned, is seriously flawed. Banning a Drizzle-Swift Swim combo doesn't seem right, and this is coming from a guy who has never used any Water-type except Swampert (and Poliwrath in 4th gen, before I lost Diamond). Furthermore, if such a proposal is to be implemented, then Sandstream-Sand Rush and Drought-Chlorophyll would have to be banned, in the interest of fairness. I'm against most of the bans on principle - unless you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a mechanic is broken, deal with it and figure out ways to counter it. I think I speak for most of us when I say we want an evolving meta, not a devolving one. Chlorophyll and Giga Drain? Why? Lack of Blaze Blaziken? WHY? Without Speed Boost, Blaziken is mid-to-high-level OU material with High Jump Kick. As for the whole Sand Veil issue... I could see it as a problem on Substitute Garchomp, but any other time it's basically unnecessary to ban it. Sure, it's annoying, but luck-based mechanics are not ban-worthy because none of them provide reliable protection. OHKO moves are an exception, but that's just because anything that provides an automatic OHKO regardless of anyone's stats is just OP. Smash-Passing ought not to be banned, as a Smash-boosted Pokemon will be pretty fucking deadly regardless of what it is.

Most of the complex bans seem like so much whining to me, nothing more. Skill and creativity slowly but surely fall by the wayside when combos are banned.

As for the idea of banning Garchomp, I am firmly against it. There are things with better typing and stats no one has even considered banning, so just relax and make sure somebody has a decent Dragon or Ice attack. (And no, I do not use Garchomp - in fact, he's a thorn in the side of a decent chunk of my team, so I would have an incentive to ban, but my opposition stands.)

And lastly, Lanceknightmare: your math needs serious work, and so does your grammar. You make my brain bleed, so return when you've fixed those problems, please. e_e

 

[Pocket]

Darth Crow, your argument is not cohesive and some of the details you mention makes me question the credibility of your logic.

1) Why are you talking about carts...
2) You are against the bans we had so far? Which one of them seem outrageous to you? You do realize that these decisions are made by the majority of the qualified voters who KNOWS the metagame.
3) You seem to be against Combination ban, but you want Speed Boost + Blaziken banned
4) Your reasoning behind Garchomp is insufficient. It's not merely about typing and stats, but it also has to do with movepool, ability, and the usage of other monsters.

I think we can agree that we want a balanced metagame. This inevitably leads to banning intolerable and overpowering elements of the metagame. We don't ban for the sake of "principle" or "fairness." We ban for the sake of a better metagame. If Swift Swim + Drizzle removes the variable that overwhelms the current metagame, we ban them. We don't go and ban Drought-Chlorophyll and Sandstream-Sand Rush "out of fairness." The weather is arguably balanced right now - no need to disrupt the metagame more than necessary.

 

[Progeusz]

then Sandstream-Sand Rush and Drought-Chlorophyll would have to be banned, in the interest of fairness

Not really. Clorophyll users get screwed if there's something with Fire attack on opponents team outspeeding them/surviving hit. There's only one Sand Rush Pokemon capable of sweeping teams, it's easier to simply ban him. On the other hand Swift Swimmers get Double STAB in rain and 120 acc Thunder (why everybody seems to forget that? it's so simple). Also, Swift Swimmers are really good Pokemon even outside of Rain, the same can't exactly be said about Chlorophyll users outside of Sun. Water is better type than Grass or Fire defensively and offensively (ok, Fire is on par offensively). Rain is the strongest weather, it's obvious. It god nerfed, so everything is pretty much fair now.

There are things with better typing and stats

Where? Thundurus is comparable both type and stat-wise but better?

Lanceknightmare, have you ever played Pokemon? You know, Swords Dance existed even in times of Red/Blue/Yellow.


Edit: lol, no Swift Swimmer gets Thunder but their teammates do, Sandstorm gets nothing, Sun gets obviously inferior Solar Beam, sorry. There's no reason to nerf Sun and Sand just because of Aldaron's proposal.

 

[Lanceknightmare]

I have read through this post 3 times for entertainment purposes alone!

Your proposal would mean that every team must run stall because no Pokemon would be allowed to set up to break walls down. In other words all Pokemon have a psuedo-Unaware ability since boosting is banned. I'll say no more.

Also just for your own information, boosting stages is easily calculated by fractions and starts at 2/2 for +0, 3/2 (or 1.5x or 150%) for +1 and 4/2 (or 2x or 200%) for +2 and so on. Thus Swords Dance doubles the Attack stat.

At no point in my post. Did I say boosting would be banned. I said boosting would be banned. In cases where it would exceed 500 points in a single statistic. In less than three turns.

This is to prevent the obviously over-powered sweeps I see on a regular basis. Hearing claims of people sweeping entire teams 6-0. Tells me that things are seriously unbalanced in certain areas. The rules that are made for each tier. Are not doing there jobs properly. For balancing out out the tier.

The purpose of my original post. Was to come up with a way to prevent this obvious abuse in the game. Based on the vast experience that I have. Something I didn't think of when I made that rather large posts. Certain skills are also notably over-powered.

A Baton Passer that sets up. Then, passes into a Focus Sash Magikarp with Flail. Most hilarious thing I ever saw. I suppose there are ways around that. Though, its borderline and hilarious.

I thought that boosting moves gave +20% per upgrade. Because of the +20% given from items like Sharp Beak. Which ups Flying Type moves. I know that the consumable Gems give +50% per move.

I'll have to find a sight that actually talks about these hidden formulas in detail. Over half of the knowledge I have about the game. Is from competitive team building in Generation 1 and 2. It makes sense that there are several incorrect pieces of data in my knowledge about the game.

 

[Progeusz]

Just tell me... what's your opinion on things that have over 500 in one stat without any boosting? (choice users) It's really easy to achieve.

In cases where it would exceed 500 points in a single statistic. In less than three turns.

That means that anything giving +2 should be banned. Anything giving +1 as well if you plan to use it twice. That means almost all boosting moves are banned. Unless you use Geodude or Sunkern.

Tells me that things are seriously unbalanced in certain areas.

More like someone getting 6:0'd can't play Pokemon. Or doesn't have counter for specific threat. And it's his fault.

Then, passes into a Focus Sash Magikarp with Flail.

Oh. Everything is clear now. You saw some vid on YT and failed to read description where it's clearly written that author had to try about 50 times unless he managed to win with the lulz strategy.

Is from competitive team building in Generation 1 and 2. It makes sense that there are several incorrect pieces of data in my knowledge about the game.

Boosting works exactly the same as it did in I Gen (except for Focus Energy).

 

[XienZo]

But see, even if you banned every boosting move, it's still possible to get 6-0, and that's clearly overpowered.

Now, the solution is very simple guys, we just ban all pokemon except:

Shedinja @ Sticky Barb
-Final Gambit

And screw species clause, everyone's going to have 6 of these fellas.

See, now, with this shedinja, those days of having overpowered 6-0 sweeps are over. It's LITERALLY impossible to 6-0 with these guys; hell, it's impossible to get anything but a 0-0 tie! And nothing says balanced like having every single match end in a tie.

You can't deny that it'd be the most balanced metagame ever.

 

[Lanceknightmare]

Just tell me... what's your opinion on things that have over 500 in one stat without any boosting? (choice users) It's really easy to achieve.

That means that anything giving +2 should be banned. Anything giving +1 as well if you plan to use it twice. That means almost all boosting moves are banned. Unless you use Geodude or Sunkern.

More like someone getting 6:0'd can't play Pokemon. Or doesn't have counter for specific threat. And it's his fault.

Oh. Everything is clear now. You saw some vid on YT and failed to read description where it's clearly written that author had to try about 50 times unless he managed to win with the lulz strategy.

Boosting works exactly the same as it did in I Gen (except for Focus Energy).

I'm not against Choice Users.
I'll answer every other question you have. By just saying the name of the Youtube Video I am referring to. This is one of the best Youtube Battlers I've seen that made the sweep. Not just some random guy that only wins by luck.
Wi-Fi Battle #83 (Killer Nacho v GOD!!) [100 SUBS! MAGIKARP!]


If 500 is an unrealistic number to cap what you can boost up to. What would be a realistic Statistical Cap for maintaining balance? Sawk after 1 or 2 Bulk Ups. Can sweep nearly every Pokemon of similar level. Which isn't either set-up specifically for Tanking. Or doesn't have Reflect up. In some cases, he can even sweep certain Pokemon. Without even needing to boost up. Should Brick Break be able to kill nearly every Pokemon that is Neutral or Weak to his attacks. With a 75 Power Stabbed Brick Break? These are the type of holes I'm concerned about.

Something you didn't ask. I'm actually for the use of use of Evasion Moves. I believe that excluding these skills. Takes away just about all tactical use for the guaranteed to hit moves like Swift. I'm not entirely against the bans on them. Though, I don't see any reason. Why certain +evasion items and moves should be banned. While others are still left in. If these +evasion moves/items are really so unbalanced. Keeping some of them in still allows the imbalance to remain.

 

[XienZo]

I'm not against Choice Users.
I'll answer every other question you have. By just saying the name of the Youtube Video I am referring to. This is one of the best Youtube Battlers I've seen that made the sweep. Not just some random guy that only wins by luck.
Wi-Fi Battle #83 (Killer Nacho v GOD!!) [100 SUBS! MAGIKARP!]


If 500 is an unrealistic number to cap what you can boost up to. What would be a realistic Statistical Cap for maintaining balance? Sawk after 1 or 2 Bulk Ups. Can sweep nearly every Pokemon of similar level. Which isn't either set-up specifically for Tanking. Or doesn't have Reflect up. In some cases, he can even sweep certain Pokemon. Without even needing to boost up. Should Brick Break be able to kill nearly every Pokemon that is Neutral or Weak to his attacks. With a 75 Power Stabbed Brick Break? These are the type of holes I'm concerned about.

Something you didn't ask. I'm actually for the use of use of Evasion Moves. I believe that excluding these skills. Takes away just about all tactical use for the guaranteed to hit moves like Swift. I'm not entirely against the bans on them. Though, I don't see any reason. Why certain +evasion items and moves should be banned. While others are still left in. If these +evasion moves/items are really so unbalanced. Keeping some of them in still allows the imbalance to remain.

As I said, let's just ban every single pokemon except Shedinja @ Sticky Barb. No silly arbitrary math or w/e involved, and such a restriction, unlike yours, would actually completely balance the game since even without stat boosts, a person can win 6-0 if the other person does nothing but switch pokemon all the time.

 

[SP458]

Leave him alone, guys. He's just been impressed by a very lucky (yet planned, tried, re-tried and re-re-tried) Magikarp sweep.
And I respond to his trollish post about Evasion moves: I don't think they'll be unbanned, even after 2012.

Well, coming back to more serious things.
IMO, Sand Stream + Sand Rush and Drought + Chlorophyll will never be banned because of obvious reasons that I won't say here. But, if a Fire-type Pokemon with Chlorophyll ever existed...

 

[PI-Dimension]

Broken stuff is broken: and it gets banned, not nerfed.

Sure, I bet Reshiram would be OU or even UU if it couldn't use any fire or dragon moves.

Lugia would be OU or even UU if we took away roost and whirlwind.

Hell, arceus would even be fair in Ubers if he could only have 100 EVs in each stat (oh wai-)

but what did we do to reshiram and lugia? We BANNED them, not nerfed them.

Rain was broken before the Drizzle+SS ban. It doesn't matter if its broken now (it is): drizzle or SS should be banned. For simplicity, the easiest bans are pokemon bans, and hence Politoed should be banned (yo speed boost blaziken was not banned, blaziken was). Ofc rain w/o swift swim is still broken now.

Ninetales, IMO, should not be banned. Clorophyll users get owned by fire, which is boosted in sun, and... sun just isn't the same as rain. They don't have thunder/hurricane (lol solar beam), fire types are inferior to water types, etc. But we can test that: and we would not do a drought + clorophyll ban, we would do a Ninetales ban.

What makes sub garchomp so annoying? Sand Stream and Sand Viel. Hence, either TTar+Hippo are banned, or Garchomp is banned. I think we all know which is more broken...

Smashpass? Honestly, Smashpass Smeargle SUCKS, and smashpass huntail is Easy to deal with compared to gorebyss. In other words, ban Gorebyss.

(unrelated: ban thundurus. After a NP, it OHKOs 17 of the top 20 in usage. In addition, only 1, excadrill, can 'revenge' it (~60% with rock slide) without it doing serious damage to another member of your team)

 

[JohnWesleyX]

@Lance: So anyone with 500 in a stat in less than three turns should be banned?
Well Blissey has a minimum of 620 Hp. Hp is a stat, in 0 turns needed. Does this mean we have to ban Blissey, or shuckle in this matter? No, and Choice Items do not take any set amount of turns to boost. And they can easily put a pokemon past 500 into a stat

 

[133k]

Leave him alone, guys. He's just been impressed by a very lucky (yet planned, tried, re-tried and re-re-tried) Magikarp sweep.
And I respond to his trollish post about Evasion moves: I don't think they'll be unbanned, even after 2012.

Well, coming back to more serious things.
IMO, Sand Stream + Sand Rush and Drought + Chlorophyll will never be banned because of obvious reasons that I won't say here. But, if a Fire-type Pokemon with Chlorophyll ever existed...

I don't think one fire-type w/Chlorophyll would warrant the entire combination being banned, grass types and all.

 

[jas61292]

I don't think one fire-type w/Chlorophyll would warrant the entire combination being banned, grass types and all.

And by that same logic, if Alderon's proposal isn't changed before then, then when DW Armaldo and Beartic are released, we will have the exact same situation, and the complex ban will need to go.

 

[flashkickass]

swsw armaldo is released though

 

[jas61292]

swsw armaldo is released though

It is? Didn't know that. Well, that is just further reason for us to reevaluate the current ban.

 

[Katakiri]

Broken stuff is broken: and it gets banned, not nerfed.

Sure, I bet Reshiram would be OU or even UU if it couldn't use any fire or dragon moves.

Lugia would be OU or even UU if we took away roost and whirlwind.

Hell, arceus would even be fair in Ubers if he could only have 100 EVs in each stat (oh wai-)

but what did we do to reshiram and lugia? We BANNED them, not nerfed them.

Rain was broken before the Drizzle+SS ban. It doesn't matter if its broken now (it is): drizzle or SS should be banned. For simplicity, the easiest bans are pokemon bans, and hence Politoed should be banned (yo speed boost blaziken was not banned, blaziken was). Ofc rain w/o swift swim is still broken now.

Ninetales, IMO, should not be banned. Clorophyll users get owned by fire, which is boosted in sun, and... sun just isn't the same as rain. They don't have thunder/hurricane (lol solar beam), fire types are inferior to water types, etc. But we can test that: and we would not do a drought + clorophyll ban, we would do a Ninetales ban.

What makes sub garchomp so annoying? Sand Stream and Sand Viel. Hence, either TTar+Hippo are banned, or Garchomp is banned. I think we all know which is more broken...

Smashpass? Honestly, Smashpass Smeargle SUCKS, and smashpass huntail is Easy to deal with compared to gorebyss. In other words, ban Gorebyss.

(unrelated: ban thundurus. After a NP, it OHKOs 17 of the top 20 in usage. In addition, only 1, excadrill, can 'revenge' it (~60% with rock slide) without it doing serious damage to another member of your team)

You pretty much summed up this thread.

Only thing I disagree with is Smashpass. Smeargle can only really be stopped the a faster Pokemon with a Sub/Taunt(lolmentalherb)/gimmicky shit. Especially if it comes in late-game on Ferrothorn or something it can Spore with impunity and Huntail is in some cases better than Gorebyss just because he has the stats to go mixed, unlike Gorebyss.

 

[jas61292]

Broken stuff is broken: and it gets banned, not nerfed.

Sure, I bet Reshiram would be OU or even UU if it couldn't use any fire or dragon moves.

Lugia would be OU or even UU if we took away roost and whirlwind.

Hell, arceus would even be fair in Ubers if he could only have 100 EVs in each stat (oh wai-)

but what did we do to reshiram and lugia? We BANNED them, not nerfed them.

Rain was broken before the Drizzle+SS ban. It doesn't matter if its broken now (it is): drizzle or SS should be banned. For simplicity, the easiest bans are pokemon bans, and hence Politoed should be banned (yo speed boost blaziken was not banned, blaziken was). Ofc rain w/o swift swim is still broken now.

Ninetales, IMO, should not be banned. Clorophyll users get owned by fire, which is boosted in sun, and... sun just isn't the same as rain. They don't have thunder/hurricane (lol solar beam), fire types are inferior to water types, etc. But we can test that: and we would not do a drought + clorophyll ban, we would do a Ninetales ban.

What makes sub garchomp so annoying? Sand Stream and Sand Viel. Hence, either TTar+Hippo are banned, or Garchomp is banned. I think we all know which is more broken...

Smashpass? Honestly, Smashpass Smeargle SUCKS, and smashpass huntail is Easy to deal with compared to gorebyss. In other words, ban Gorebyss.

(unrelated: ban thundurus. After a NP, it OHKOs 17 of the top 20 in usage. In addition, only 1, excadrill, can 'revenge' it (~60% with rock slide) without it doing serious damage to another member of your team)

I agree in general, but not on the specifics. Mainly, my disagreement is about Drizzle (and Drought to some extent). It was decided that having Swift Swim in infinite rain was broken, but instead of banning the Pokemon that were broken under said conditions, we banned the combo, which ended up pseudo-banning non broken Pokemon. If drizzle as a whole were broken, we should ban it (though I don't think it is). If Swift Swim as a whole were broken (which it is not), then we should ban Swift Swim. However, if neither are (my opinion), then we should ban the individual Pokemon that are broken when the two are together (ie Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops). Weakening a few broken Pokemon to keep them OU is ridiculous, especially when it imposes a pseudo ban on tons of non-broken Pokemon (ie Floatzel, Seaking, Lumineon).