What you heard is nothing more than internet mudslinging. Some of the people who don't want weather banned or don't know the inner workings of smogon's tiering process call out pro weather banners saying they want to make 5th gen another 4th gen. Maybe some people want that but the majority of pro weather banners truly believe weather is broken. Besides how can it possibly go back to 4th gen? This is 5th gen. There are a crap ton of new pokemon, abilities and moves. Some of the new stuff is broken and so we'll get rid of that. Does that mean we want 5th gen as another 4th gen? No.
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Why complex bans are a waste. + My proposal (friendly discussion)
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Garchomp is broken even without sand veil. with it it could be top-tier uber with a strong legendary with ss. Landorus and excadrill rnt broken, they're easy 2 deal with.
Also, Drizzle and Drought are very good, but not banworthy. keep the meta as it is, but without chomp or thundurus.
Also, Drizzle and Drought are very good, but not banworthy. keep the meta as it is, but without chomp or thundurus.
jas61292,
Yes Luck is a reason for restrictions: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84326. That is why we have Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, Evasion Clause, OHKO Clause, and Moody Clause. If Sand Veil introduces too much luck that it disrupts significantly the skill-based metagame we have been carving, then yes, it should be banned. So far, the main reason for removing Garchomp is because it has Sand Veil activated 100% of the time, since it is paired most often with Ttar. Same goes for Moody. Thus, Moody was banned and I am suggesting a ban on Sand Veil + Sandstream, because the evasion predominates a match, as many people made it clear.
Kurashi Dragon,
Banning Garchomp is also an option, but you are really banning what is more than necessary, causing a greater disruption in the metagame through the ban of an entire Pokemon.
There is less urgency for the combination ban here than there was for Drizzle + Swift Swim, because admittedly the sole OU abuser of Sand Veil is Garchomp. However, Sand Veil + Sand Stream achieves what is desired with less repercussions on the metagame.
I hope you guys understand the take-home message here: don't dismiss Combination bans just because they are not Simple bans.
Some of the combination ban suggestions are indeed unwarranted (Sandstream + Sand Rush; Sunny Day + Chlorophyll) and outright ridiculous (Latios + Draco Meteor). But there are ridiculous simple bans being nominated as well (Ferrothorn, All Perma-Weather, Cloyster, etc), so I don't agree with "opening the pandora box" argument. The pandora box had been opened when the we were able to voice our opinions on bans.
People spout stupid shit on occasions; you just have to weed out the stupid ones from the legitimate ones. So far, the Suspect Moderators and Voters have done an impressive job in dumb-control. Be open to solutions, even if they are not simple, if it will maintain a balanced and stable metagame
To me, Garchomp is a bigger issue than what you are simplifying it out to be. The reason is luck.
Yes Luck is a reason for restrictions: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84326. That is why we have Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, Evasion Clause, OHKO Clause, and Moody Clause. If Sand Veil introduces too much luck that it disrupts significantly the skill-based metagame we have been carving, then yes, it should be banned. So far, the main reason for removing Garchomp is because it has Sand Veil activated 100% of the time, since it is paired most often with Ttar. Same goes for Moody. Thus, Moody was banned and I am suggesting a ban on Sand Veil + Sandstream, because the evasion predominates a match, as many people made it clear.
Actually, I agree with you here. If you look at my thread on my sig titled "HOW TO DEAL WITH RAIN," I proposed exactly the same solution before resorting to the combination ban. However, people did not want to go through the proposal because it was lengthy, and we settled with Aldaron's Proposal. Aldaron's Proposal was the second best thing that could have happened, because we were still able to test Drizzle in separation from Swift Swim, and some may argue that it has balanced the metagame.
Kurashi Dragon,
We would not have been able to justify that Drizzle alone was broken enough to be suspect until we implemented Aldaron's Proposal and separated Drizzle from Swift Swim.
Combination ban is one of the solutions in removing the element that is harming the metagame. It's not hiding the problem, it is objectively isolating variables to truly pin point the problem. Garchomp is overpowered because of 20% evasion. You then remove the 20% evasion (or at least not make it an auto-activation). Problem solved. One can say that Garchomp, even without the assistance of Sand Veil, is still broken. However, we cannot truly prove this with Sand Veil activated all the time, right?
Banning Garchomp is also an option, but you are really banning what is more than necessary, causing a greater disruption in the metagame through the ban of an entire Pokemon.
There is less urgency for the combination ban here than there was for Drizzle + Swift Swim, because admittedly the sole OU abuser of Sand Veil is Garchomp. However, Sand Veil + Sand Stream achieves what is desired with less repercussions on the metagame.
I hope you guys understand the take-home message here: don't dismiss Combination bans just because they are not Simple bans.
Some of the combination ban suggestions are indeed unwarranted (Sandstream + Sand Rush; Sunny Day + Chlorophyll) and outright ridiculous (Latios + Draco Meteor). But there are ridiculous simple bans being nominated as well (Ferrothorn, All Perma-Weather, Cloyster, etc), so I don't agree with "opening the pandora box" argument. The pandora box had been opened when the we were able to voice our opinions on bans.
People spout stupid shit on occasions; you just have to weed out the stupid ones from the legitimate ones. So far, the Suspect Moderators and Voters have done an impressive job in dumb-control. Be open to solutions, even if they are not simple, if it will maintain a balanced and stable metagame
I'm not saying that. I know full well that we didn't have very much knowledge of whether or not Drizzle was broken or not. I myself was looking forward to the Proposal because I wanted Drizzle to not be so broken.
However, as I stated and you misinterpreted as my lack of knowledge as to why the Aldaron Proposal was implemented in the first place, we have full knowledge of how drizzle works now. The Swift Swimmers overshadowed all the threats in drizzle. After the Proposal was implemented Drizzle turned into what it is now. People had to work with drizzle to make up for the loss of swift swim. They did this with all the rain sweepers you see now. There's so much versitility in rain, it's sickening. The proposal did nothing to nerf rain. In fact the proposal opened people's eyes to all the other rain abusers in the metagame.
This is one thing I'll always adamantly disagree with. Combination bans do nothing but hide the problem at hand. You seem to think that Sand Veil is Garchomp's only problem but that's not the case. As I stated before, if that were the only problem, Sand Veil would be broken on everything. This is not the case. Garchomp breaks Sand Veil because of it's combination of Sand Veil, Swords Dance, Substitute, and Garchomp's Base stats. Garchomp has the speed and bulk that allow it to abuse the combination of Sand Veil, Swords Dance, and Substitute. Nothing has this combination that also has the stats to properly abuse them. Because of this combination, Garchomp abuses sand veil to the point of being broken. Garchomp is the problem, Not Sand Veil.
The same can be said for any pokemon ban. If Darkrai didn't have Dark Void I don't think it would be banned. If Skymin didn't have Seed Flare I don't think it would be banned. At the same time once these pokemon left the metagame, it was majorly disrupted. If we didn't ban these pokemon and instead did a combination ban on them, the metagame would be completely different. Whether it would be worse or better is irrelevant, the point is the metagame would be different.
Every single ban changes the metagame. Even the complex bans change the metagame. However, complex bans do nothing but nerf a pokemon to keep it in the tier. It's not getting to the real problem.
To implement a Combination ban of Sand Veil + Sandstream in OU is completely pointless though. You said yourself that the only Sand Veil abuser in OU is garchomp. Therefore it would be pointless to implement a complex ban like that. Your only effecting Garchomp. You may as well do a Garchomp + Sand Veil combination ban. The basic principal is the same. Your making it so Garchomp can no longer use Sand Veil. However, with the Combination ban your also effecting other pokemon who if they manage to come into OU with Sand Veil but aren't broken with it, will never get the chance to be OU. There's no point for such a pointless combination ban. Ban Garchomp not sand veil.
Okay. I am fine with your argument concerning Garchomp. To me Garchomp ban is fine. I am just saying that Sand Veil + Sand Stream is just as valid an alternative, because it would not disrupt the metagame largely while dealing with the main complaint. And there is no negative outcome as well - all Sand Veil users except Cacturne have arguably much better abilities than Sand Veil. And who are we kidding that Cacturne would ever make an impact in OU? The loss of Garchomp, in comparison, would certainly shake things up a few things and may potentially perpetuate another cycle of instability, prolonging the suspect process further.
And Darkrai with Dark Void is another example of a ridiculous complex ban that would be weeded out during the Suspect Nominations, just as nominations on Ferrothorn and All Perma-Weather would be weeded out.
Finally, let's just agree in one important point - Aldaron's Proposal was helpful. Yes, it may be repealed now that we have objectively proven that Drizzle is broken - but again, we could not have done that without the Combination Ban.
Who knows - combination ban on Garchomp may prove the opposite - without Sand Veil, Garchomp is just another competitive Pokemon that serves as useful checks to other OU mons.
If we can agree upon the usefulness and the viability of Combination ban (not my Sand Veil + Sand Stream proposal, but Combination ban in general), then I think we should be open to future quality Combination bans that truly hits home the issue of the problem.
This is why combination ban is NOT a waste.
And Darkrai with Dark Void is another example of a ridiculous complex ban that would be weeded out during the Suspect Nominations, just as nominations on Ferrothorn and All Perma-Weather would be weeded out.
Finally, let's just agree in one important point - Aldaron's Proposal was helpful. Yes, it may be repealed now that we have objectively proven that Drizzle is broken - but again, we could not have done that without the Combination Ban.
Who knows - combination ban on Garchomp may prove the opposite - without Sand Veil, Garchomp is just another competitive Pokemon that serves as useful checks to other OU mons.
If we can agree upon the usefulness and the viability of Combination ban (not my Sand Veil + Sand Stream proposal, but Combination ban in general), then I think we should be open to future quality Combination bans that truly hits home the issue of the problem.
This is why combination ban is NOT a waste.
Yea I know. However, let's say that, hypothetically, something got Sand Veil tomorrow and made OU with it. However, it wouldn't be broken in OU but couldn't get into the tier without it. Because of the ban only concerning Garchomp that pokemon couldn't get into OU. I'm just looking at future scenarios.
I won't say if whether or not Sand Veil + Sandstream is good. I will say however, that doing a complex ban for 1 pokemon is a bad idea.
I'm not saying that it will happen, I'm saying that it's the same principal as every complex ban. They would nerf a pokemon to keep it in a tier. In the first Suspect thread anyone could've said to Ban Dark Void instead of Darkrai. (Infact I think it was mentioned a couple of times.) Without Dark Void Darkrai would've had a very tough time getting banned. Gen 5's new sleep mechanics made Dark Void a very broken move and everyone knew this. However, they also knew that there was no point in doing this complex ban. What was the point of doing a complex ban to keep darkrai in OU. To nerf Darkrai to keep it OU. There is none so they banned it.
I'll agree with you on that point. I know that the complex ban was only done because nobody was really sure if drizzle was broken or not. In the end complex bans at least help figure out what broken factors make the pokemon broken. However, I feel complex bans should be temporary at best. For the Aldaron Proposal, we figured out Drizzle was still broken so there's really no point in beating around the bush anymore. Drizzle needs to be banned.
True. Like I said with the Darkrai thing, I really cant tell if a combination ban would help or hurt the metagame itself, it just seems pointless to nerf something like that.
At the very least they help provide information as to the broken factor of a pokemon or playstyle however, Combination bans shouldn't be permanent. They nerf something to keep it in said tier. Combination bans serve for information on what makes the pokemon broken however, that can only work if it's not completely obvious to everyone. The Aldaron Proposal was implimented because we didn't have enough information on Drizzle. Now that we do, the combination ban has served it's purpose. Why keep a combination ban permanently if it intentionally nerfs something? People are running away from the problem.
At the very least Complex bans should only be implemented under specific circumstances where simple bans just don't feel right. The Aldaron Proposal is a good example of this but a Sandstream + Sand Veil complex ban is obviously only for Garchomp for people who think that Sand Veil is really the only thing that breaks Garchomp. This is not the case.
Now Imma go to bed. Seriously, it's 4am where I am. Why did I even stay up this late?
I can tell you that there wasn't really any need for a complex ban on Darkrai. It wasn't Dark Void that exacerbated the new sleep mechanism, it was Darkrai's ability Nightmare combined with its offensive presence. I agree with you: Darkrai + Dark Void ban is a largely unnecessary ban (which is why no one suggested this complex ban, because it was bad).
Usually any suggestion of a Pokemon + Move ban has been inferior to a simple Pokemon ban, because it is usually Pokemon or the Pokemon + Ability that is the issue. I would highly avoid suggesting these, just like I would avoid suggesting banning all weather.
Aldaron did not intend his proposal to be a "bandaid" on a particular issue, where the proposal would come off when the problem is gone. The problem will never be gone. Aldaron's Proposal is more of a "treatment" to an ever present problem - it is meant to be used, unless a better "treatment" comes up.
Usually any suggestion of a Pokemon + Move ban has been inferior to a simple Pokemon ban, because it is usually Pokemon or the Pokemon + Ability that is the issue. I would highly avoid suggesting these, just like I would avoid suggesting banning all weather.
So if we end up keeping Drizzle this round, do we have a suspect test on Kingdra and possibly Kabutops / Ludicolo, since we have to nullify the proposal at all cost? That would be a good alternative, as long as it does not lead to a banning of 5+ Swift Swimmers anyways; such multiple bans would be counter-productive if the number of Swift Swimmers liberated from the Combination ban is less than the number of Swift Swimmers banished. In that case, we just revert to Aldaron's Proposal that has kept the balance. Why remove something that has been beneficial for the metagame? We should always be thinking about how our actions would affect the metagame.Kurashi Dragon said:
Aldaron did not intend his proposal to be a "bandaid" on a particular issue, where the proposal would come off when the problem is gone. The problem will never be gone. Aldaron's Proposal is more of a "treatment" to an ever present problem - it is meant to be used, unless a better "treatment" comes up.
My main disagreement he is that luck should not be a reason for restriction. I know it has been said that it should, but I would never agree with that. The true reason should be the reduction of the emphasis of skill. What many people fail to realize is that skill and luck are not opposites. But that is another conversation that I have had way too many times recently. Basically, while an increase in reliance in luck may reduce the need for skill, that is not a guarenteed outcome. I could very successfully that in order to use Sand Veil well, one must have a decent amount of skill.
However, whether or not the wording is changed the fact remains he same. If X is part of Y and Y is broken (or bannable for other reasons), Y should be banned. Unless for every Pokemon P that has X, X breaks P; in that case X should be banned. While all the bans you brought up (Evasion Clause, OHKO Clause, etc) are due to the fact that they reduce the necessity of skill, all of them are simple bans that eliminate the element that does so. If things like Sand Veil truly do reduce the necessity of luck, it should go as a whole. There is no reason to make it a complex ban when the potentially broken element is quite simple.
Yeah, I will admit that Alderon's proposal was a good quick solution for a massive problem. However, I still believe that Swift Swim Pokemon should be individually tested. Maybe my desire for the test stems from my desire for a non-broken but OU Floatzel, but even if it is, that is how we are supposed to do things, and it disappoints me that we are avoiding it.
You know as well as I do that the Proposal wont go on forever. Sooner or later people will get that the Proposal was always supposed to be a temporary fix for a lack of information. It can't hold up. I truly hope that banning the Swift Swimmers isn't the case. We already have enough weather based bans. For at least three more to take place because of weather is just being thick headed on the voters part.
Better treatment = Ban Drizzle
Althrough they don't receive any boosts to their STAB, the boost in Hidden Power Fire is what makes them fearsome because it lets them beat what they wouldn't in common situations, and with one turn of set up they can become ridiculously strong and impossible to wall.
What can set up reliably in rain? Kabutops and Omastar. And that's it.
And Chlorophyll users have naturally higher offensive stats than Swift Swimmers. Solar Beam will do similar damage to Hydro Pump, with the bonus of never missing and having the possibility of doubling in power (Growth).
In the physical side, Sawsbuck is pretty much like Kabutops with greater coverage but less power.
Altough Chlorophyll users have their weakness augmented in sun, Swift Swimmers lose their water resist. And some even become weak to it.
I'd say they're pretty much the exact same, the only thing that holds Chlorophyll teams down is that Politoed and Tyranitar > Ninetales.
_________________________
In round 2 rain appeared to be overpowered because we didn't knew how to deal with it. People adapt over time, the metagame changes, better strategies are discovered. Wasn't Tornadus claimed to be a shitter Thundurus? Now it's the best rain sweeper there, and I doubt that if we went back to round 2, people would fill their rain team with Swift Swimmers instead of double genies + Rotom W or Toxic Spikes stall.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3575067&postcount=95
Since this thread is on complex bans... we should do something about individual Swift Swimmers instead of banning Drizzle. Nobody's gonna use those outside of rain teams so they can go as a whole to keep the playstyle intact and encourage variety.
People hates rain thanks to double genie + specs Hydro Pump spam, Swift Swim has nothing to do with it even because the ones that have over 110 spcl (Gorebyss and Omastar) are awful slow and outsped by common scarfers even in rain.
Well there's also the fact that a hydro pump still hurts ninetales, even in sun, an overheat (for example) doesn't hurt toad for shit when it's raining, and if you switch toad in on a solarbeam you can easily just switch out to a resist, and have the rain up, without taking any damage.
I still feel like option 3, cause if one weather is banned, the other two will just explode in power, so either ban none, or ban all (except hail obv.), that's my standpoint.
I still feel like option 3, cause if one weather is banned, the other two will just explode in power, so either ban none, or ban all (except hail obv.), that's my standpoint.
i know that,i am talking about rain with the nerf included...
don't isolate my sentences to make them sound how you prefer...i said that these claims are bs when the other says also that the spamming is for free or without any downfalls...
i know that it is worth it!but it isn't for free...
if you want all these advantages you must dedicate a teamslot for them so they are not free...
also specstoad is surely powerful but doesn't have the survivabilty that a weather inducer needs,gets walled easily and has sucky speed.specs toed is good because it provides all this team support not good individually...
so yes individually politoed is crap and you are wasting a teamslot(by wasting i mean that if you want to get the benefits of rain you have to use a nu poke)...so the benefits and downfalls are pretty balanced if you ask me(with aldaron's proposal active of course)...lastly yes i meant babysitting lol!
this is not truth...i would say that it is more the other way around...
once a grass type gets started and sunlight is up it is very difficult for a rain team to stop it(and also very hard for rain to bring politoed in obviously).
rain however can still be checked by sun 'cause it doesn't give any 2x speed boost and ninetales isnt actually weak to the stab moves of the abusers(while politoed is)which makes switching the weather easier...!
i don't know if you noticed but i am talking about defensive synergy...rain teams rely on ferrothorn way too much to take all these grass and electric attacks that rain hates...!it doesn't matter if you can kill grass types when a chlorophyll user or just a scarfed user of grass moves can kill half of your team simply because you have pokes with many same stacked weaknesses...
and also i don't know if you remember but for a poke to use a grass or an electric move it doesn't necessarily have to be of the same type...so it doesn't always matter if you have flying moves for grass types...
and finally you don;t know what uses electric???electric in conjuction with ice beam forms the infamous boltbeam coverage that gets almost perfect coverage...do you want me to list you some pokes that use electric moves in ou and are not a staple only in rain teams???ok here we go:
porygon2,thundurus,rotom-w,starmie,magnezone,deoxys-s and zapdos...!i think that 7 users 2 of which are in top 20 are enough electric users...i am not saying how well these users of electric moves deal with rain i am just disputing your saying that electric moves are rare...and also of course ferrothorn can take elctric moves but when it is also charged for taking all of your teams weaknesses then eventually it will crumble(when you opponent plays good of course)...
politoed has 10% usage because of drizzle and the team support that it provides not because of its individual strenght.it is a nu poke that was blessed with an uber gift!
and also excadrill may suck outside of sand but it is only 1 poke.rain and sun usually have 3 or 4 pokes that rely on weather so...
what???
fighting is tyranitars and excadrills wekanesses!ice is garchomp gliscors and landorus weaknesses!water is a weakness that all of them share except garchomp...
but who told you that sand teams consist solely of them?sand has latios,rotom-w and ferrothorn to cover the nasty water weakness easily!and ice and fighting beating sand badly is seriously a joke...these 2 weaknesses are minor and not really worth talking about...i don't know how many sand teams that were ice or fighting weak you have seen but most of them must have been pretty bad...
sand is so good because its members have good defensive synergy which means that they have multiple pokes that can take problematic moves and don't rely only on 1 major defender like rain does(see ferrothorn)...so usually a sand team has 2 or even 3 water resistors so don't worry they can handle water attacks well enough...
i never was personaly reffering to you i was reffering to anyone who said that rain abuse is overpowered and for free...
this is ypur personal opinion!don't state it as a fact...
as seen in the suspect test only 23 out of 70 people nominated drizzle...and half of them nominated every weather not only drizzle...so what does this say???
drizzle is not broken end of story!!!
you cant present something as broken when it can't even be nominated by 40% of the voters and when politoed's usage is only in the top 20...not even top 10...something that you say that is broken is not even at top 10...now explain me how is this possible...
it didn't necessarily need sub to prove problematic...with every way of stalling for free turns it could have the same outcome...
moody can be abused with protect,parhax,confusion,attraction and many more...of course some of this options are not as good as sub and not consistent but we are talking about inconsistent lol!!!this ability wasn't only broken it was also making the game too luck based...
sadly as it has been proved by the majority of the community complex bans are sometimes a necessity.
why?
'cause the metagame itslef has become more complex with many more factors to consider when you want o ban something...it is not as easy to isolate the broken factors(or even the combination of broken factors) when you want to ban something anymore...
brokeness is not always the problem...sand veil is in fault for bringing too much luck to the metagame...
also moody doesn't need substitute to get banned.inconsistent is both broken and makes the meta too luck based!maybe if you took away sub from its users then you could keep it from being broken but it would still have another reason to get banned...
The same can be said for any teamslot. Your putting a pokemon on your team knowing full well the advantages and disadvantages of said pokemon.
Have you ever had a lead thundurus take on a bulky Politoed. It can survive the thunderbolt and put it to sleep with Hypnosis or ohko with Ice Beam. At the very least that what happens to me when I face a bulky Politoed.
Also not everything has to be good offensively to be broken. Sometimes it just takes a broken amount of support to make something broken.
Heh You tell me that it's my personal opinion but then you go around and tell me that Drizzle is not broken, end of story!
What proof do you have of this? What makes your word so much better than mine? Because the voters say this? Don't you remember how many times Latias was voted not to ban before it was banned. Even the voters have personal opinions. In the end that's what it comes down to. Proof is all well and good. In the end it helps but majorly, it comes down to the personal opinions of the voters. We as the community need to present the proof to change the opinion of these voters.
Also, Politoed is used in the top 10% of teams. 10.8200% of all battles have a politoed in them.
Um no. It can only be abused correctly with Protect and Substitute. All of your other "examples" are luck based and just as easily work against you as with you.
While it is true that your "examples" can stall for turns only the Protect Substitute combo can stall for so many turns until you get the things you need. With all the other examples you have mabye 1 - 3 turns. Yes those few turns can be enough but your dealing with luck here. It could just as easily take you 5 turns to get the correct boosts as it would take you 2 turns. Your examples can work sometimes but in the end the Protect Substitute is the only way to completely break Moody.
Also Moody being broken was the most major reason it was banned. It had a little bit to do with luck but in the end, Moody was broken and so it was banned.
You make it sound like all luck is bad for the metagame. Evasion is the worst aspect of luck but even evasion can not be bad. Case in point, Sand Veil doesn't break anything but Garchomp, with it's combo, breaks Sand Veil. Nothing else abuses Sand Veil to the extent Garchomp does. Nothing else can sweep through entire teams using Sand Veil like Garchomp can. Therefore Sand Veil doesn't have to be banned. It's luck but it's not bad.
this is true.of course if politoed proved to be broken it would do so clearly because it would break the support characteristics.
but what i am saying is that when you chose to abuse the big benfits of rain you also get to babysit the otherwise completely sucky politoed.
in the other hand when you chose to abuse t-tar you get some smaller benefits while at the same time getting an amazing poke on its own...!
i tell you this by giving you proofs and facts not only my personal opinion...
the facts are the voters decisions and the usage stats!pretty solid facts if you ask me...
of 'course this doesn't mean that politoed can't be deemed broken in the future but it is pretty sure that it won't.
also saying for something so clearly borderline broken as drizzle(which means that drizzle is considered to break only a little the metagame,unlike kyogre f.e which would break entirely the metagame) that is blatantly broken is just funny...
it would be logical to hear from you:i think that drizzle is broken for these reasons.but posting that drizzle is broken like you are stating a general truth is just infuriating...!
i am fine with this,you have your opinions and i have mine!
yes but as i have told a million times the matter with bans is not always brokeness.
if that was the case then evasion raising moves,items and ohko moves wouldn't be banned...
things that bring too much luck to the metagame can get banned too!and this is what sv does!
Ban Dream World.
Yeah, that sounds like a troll answer, but bear with me.
That's the top 50 Pokemon in rated OU from May stats. Yeah, OU extends a bit further, and some stuff would obviously be moved significantly by a ban of Dream World stuff, but it's just to give people an idea.
Now, that's obviously a far-from-comprehensive list.
Ok, assuming you've read through all of the above spoilers, try and hold your rage for just a bit longer.
For the record, I think banning stuff in general is kinda silly. I'm not the best battler, but I think going crazy nerfing specific things for the sake of "balance" is a bit overkill. Particularly when we've seen in various testing phases of previous Gens that previously "overpowered" Pokemon weren't really all that bad, assuming you kept them in mind when designing your team (Deoxys-S testing comes to mind, but other people know better than me, surely. I really don't keep up with it that closely.)
Ok, assuming you read all (or most) of this fairly deceptive tl;dr post...
Flame away :DD
Yeah, that sounds like a troll answer, but bear with me.
Code:
MAY 2011 BW OU USAGE
Total Battles: 274354
+ ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage | Percent |
+ ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1 | Tyranitar | 119711 | 21.8169 |
| 2 | Ferrothorn | 117960 | 21.4978 |
| 3 | Garchomp | 113074 | 20.6073 |
| 4 | Scizor | 107394 | 19.5722 |
| 5 | Gliscor | 87936 | 16.0260 |
| 6 | Latios | 81312 | 14.8188 |
| 7 | Rotom-W | 74332 | 13.5467 |
| 8 | Excadrill | 72129 | 13.1452 |
| 9 | Reuniclus | 68412 | 12.4678 |
| 10 | Heatran | 68095 | 12.4101 |
| 11 | Jirachi | 65026 | 11.8507 |
| 12 | Dragonite | 64329 | 11.7237 |
| 13 | Conkeldurr | 61359 | 11.1825 |
| 14 | Politoed | 59370 | 10.8200 |
| 15 | Gengar | 58717 | 10.7010 |
| 16 | Skarmory | 54634 | 9.9568 |
| 17 | Thundurus | 54391 | 9.9126 |
| 18 | Jellicent | 49694 | 9.0565 |
| 19 | Starmie | 46790 | 8.5273 |
| 20 | Volcarona | 42924 | 7.8227 |
| 21 | Infernape | 41804 | 7.6186 |
| 22 | Gyarados | 40430 | 7.3682 |
| 23 | Blissey | 40129 | 7.3134 |
| 24 | Forretress | 37361 | 6.8089 |
| 25 | Ninetales | 34024 | 6.2007 |
| 26 | Hydreigon | 34009 | 6.1980 |
| 27 | Haxorus | 33256 | 6.0608 |
| 28 | Salamence | 32868 | 5.9901 |
| 29 | Magnezone | 32777 | 5.9735 |
| 30 | Terrakion | 32672 | 5.9544 |
| 31 | Vaporeon | 29003 | 5.2857 |
| 32 | Metagross | 28745 | 5.2387 |
| 33 | Breloom | 28481 | 5.1906 |
| 34 | Chandelure | 27876 | 5.0803 |
| 35 | Swampert | 27815 | 5.0692 |
| 36 | Cloyster | 26698 | 4.8656 |
| 37 | Scrafty | 26494 | 4.8284 |
| 38 | Hippowdon | 26166 | 4.7687 |
| 39 | Tentacruel | 25863 | 4.7134 |
| 40 | Lucario | 25625 | 4.6701 |
| 41 | Machamp | 23961 | 4.3668 |
| 42 | Deoxys-S | 23920 | 4.3593 |
| 43 | Toxicroak | 22830 | 4.1607 |
| 44 | Virizion | 22229 | 4.0512 |
| 45 | Espeon | 22019 | 4.0129 |
| 46 | Bronzong | 21683 | 3.9516 |
| 47 | Porygon2 | 21163 | 3.8569 |
| 48 | Mienshao | 21101 | 3.8456 |
| 49 | Venusaur | 21001 | 3.8274 |
| 50 | Landorus | 20408 | 3.7193 |Tyranitar: Unaffected, since his DW ability is outclassed by SS. Nowadays the pinch berries aren't seeing quite as much use because everyone and anyone has to boost if they want to pull off a sweep. Geez.
Ferrothorn: Dream World? What Dream World?
Garchomp: Losing Rough Skin doesn't really affect him, and he's going to end up banned anyway.
Scizor: Hahahaha.
Gliscor: Ok, here we go. Gliscor's become quite the force with Poison Heal. So he loses a fair chunk of regenerative potency, along with status immunity. I'd have to run calcs on damage from things he's currently used to check to see the degree to which his reduced healing affects that role.
Latios: Nothing.
Rotom: Equally unaffected.
Excadrill: Sand Rush is so much better than Mold Breaker, even in this multi-weather game. Without 3 auto-weathers, Excadrill is actually going to get better.
Reuniclus: A bit of a loss in Regenerator, but Magic Guard is the standard, to my knowledge.
Heatran: Replacing an ability that rewards good prediction with an ability that can cause hax? For shame, Heatran.
Jirachi: Moving right along.
Dragonite: Next on the list that matters. Now, Inner Focus is dumb, obviously. Multiscale does give Dragonite quite the edge when he's at full HP. But how often does Dragonite really have full HP? One switch into SR and he's done, abilitywise. Obviously, his moves are still solid. His usage would certainly decrease, and it's likely Mence would make a return to greatness.
Conkeldurr: Iron Fist has its upsides, certainly. But I see move tutors in his future, including Elemental Punches, which will make Sheer Force the standard by far. Regardless, running only Guts wouldn't decrease Conkeldurr's usage much, if at all.
Politoed: Oh, it's you. The problem. Or the biggest problem, anyway.
Gengar: Dream World hates him.
Skarmory: Did ANYONE try Weak Armor?
Thundurus: Now, I can't imagine people missing Defiant when Prankster is so amazing. Assuming this guy doesn't get banned, however, having a +1 priority Rain Dance would actually give Rain a good way to continue to be a threat.
Jellicent: Nerfed Explosion means Damp isn't worth the time.
Starmie: Analytic seems like a great ability, but with Starmie's base 115 Speed you're actually going to have to do work to make yourself move second. Stick with being a good status absorber.
Volcarona: You could argue Swarm is a loss, yes. But with the way Volcarona is pretty much forced to play, it's not the end of the world.
Infernape: Iron Fist definitely outclasses Blaze (most abilities do, really). But Nape's selling point has always been his great amount of coverage and the relative unpredictability that accompanies that. Yes, he loses the power with Mach Punch, but he's still not losing what makes him a threat to so many teams.
Gyarados: Moxie is actually one of my favorite new abilities this gen (despite the name being ruined in translation >.>), but, currently, Gyarados isn't one of the Pokemon that puts it to best use, imo. The combination of type, bulk, Intimidate, and excessive Scizor usage have made him take on a decidedly more walling role. Obviously you can still sweep, but you're just as likely to get in a couple of DDs by Intimidating and forcing a switch as you are to get a KO to activate the Moxie boost.
Blissey: Everyone's using Healer, right?
Forretress: Overcoat seems like it would be a good ability in theory, but on Forry is a complete waste. Sturdy rules.
Ninetales: Oh hey, another one of the ones that everyone's so upset about.
Hydreigon: Nothing from DW.
Haxorus: Same thing as Ttar, really. Oh, and have you seen what CB Rivalry Outrage does to things? Or how Mold Breaker EQ trolls Levitate Pokemon? He's in no danger.
Salamence: Unlike Gyarados, Mence probably puts Moxie to better use than Intimidate. DM to net a KO, then try and pull off the sweep with your boosted Attack. And speed boosts (from DD) are irrelevant because the #1 counter to Mence/Chomp is Ice Shard. But to be fair I'm not really that up to date on what people are doing with Mence.
Magnezone: Since his #1 job by far is trapping and killing problematic Steels, I'm say dropping Magnet Pull might make his job a bit problematic.
Terrakion: No objections here.
Vaporeon: Losing Hydration is annoying, since Hydrarest on something with such good bulk is great. But without permanent Rain to Rest in, Hydrarest becomes somewhat less potent.
Metagross: Light Metal is still dumb.
Breloom: Losing Technicloom is another one of the big hits that would come from ditching Dream World. Spore + boosted priority makes for a pretty nasty combo. Fortunately, Breloom's still fairly capable of handling himself with the classic Spore + SubPunch set.
Chandelure: The DW ability still isn't released, yeah? So not a huge deal yet, but certainly a loss for when it is released, since he's such a great revenge killer.
Swampert: Damp isn't doing anything for him.
Cloyster: Overcoat isn't a loss, especially when Skill Link + Shell Smash can tear down teams.
Scrafty: While Intimidate's decent, it's the general consensus that physical sweepers (particularly bulky ones like Scrafty) are better off with abilities that deal with status, and Shed Skin's all about that.
Hippowdon: I guess Sand Force is for people who want to play with Hippo on teams without Sandstorm? Wait a second...
Tentacruel: Another one I'm not really familiar with, honestly. But since he's a wall, Rain Dish goes along with it. But with spinning and immunity to T-Spikes, Tentacruel's going to keep a decent spot in usage.
Lucario: Justified is great if you can switch yourself in on a Dark move. But Luke's really more intent on setting up with one of his many viable sets and going to work. It's a small loss, really, since you have to predict the Dark attack just right.
Machamp: Steadfast? Stick with 100% accuracy Dynamicpunches.
Deoxys-S: Nadda.
Toxicroak: Poison Touch isn't much when it's up against Dry Skin, imo. And with Rain team usage dropping dramatically if Politoed is banned, Toxicroak's probably going to be on his way to UU.
Virizion: Not unlike his rockier cousin, Virizion could care less about DW.
Espeon: This is probably one of the biggest losses that would come with removing DW from OU. Magic Mirror Espeon is pretty much amazing with proper prediction, wrecking hazards and status. It's one of the cases where the new ability really turned an OK Pokemon into something awesome.
Bronzong: Heavy Metal? Genius.
Porygon2: Now, unlike Starmie, Porygon2 is slow enough to make use of Analytic, and with Eviolite has enough bulk to survive going second. Compared to Download, it's a bit weaker, but more reliable (assuming you're slower). Dunno how much Trace is used, tbh.
Mienshao: Gaining HP back with Regenerator is far better than taking more damage with Reckless. Moving on.
Venasaur: Another weather sweeper that will probably drop down into obscurity without stable sunlight. Though, unlike some weather Pokemon, Venasaur can get his setup out of the way in a turn or two with Growth, and then hopefully tank a hit or two to hit with his super-boosted attack powers.
Landorus: It's pretty much no contest that Sand Force is better in the case of Landorus. If all perma-weather is banned, it's another story, tho.
Ferrothorn: Dream World? What Dream World?
Garchomp: Losing Rough Skin doesn't really affect him, and he's going to end up banned anyway.
Scizor: Hahahaha.
Gliscor: Ok, here we go. Gliscor's become quite the force with Poison Heal. So he loses a fair chunk of regenerative potency, along with status immunity. I'd have to run calcs on damage from things he's currently used to check to see the degree to which his reduced healing affects that role.
Latios: Nothing.
Rotom: Equally unaffected.
Excadrill: Sand Rush is so much better than Mold Breaker, even in this multi-weather game. Without 3 auto-weathers, Excadrill is actually going to get better.
Reuniclus: A bit of a loss in Regenerator, but Magic Guard is the standard, to my knowledge.
Heatran: Replacing an ability that rewards good prediction with an ability that can cause hax? For shame, Heatran.
Jirachi: Moving right along.
Dragonite: Next on the list that matters. Now, Inner Focus is dumb, obviously. Multiscale does give Dragonite quite the edge when he's at full HP. But how often does Dragonite really have full HP? One switch into SR and he's done, abilitywise. Obviously, his moves are still solid. His usage would certainly decrease, and it's likely Mence would make a return to greatness.
Conkeldurr: Iron Fist has its upsides, certainly. But I see move tutors in his future, including Elemental Punches, which will make Sheer Force the standard by far. Regardless, running only Guts wouldn't decrease Conkeldurr's usage much, if at all.
Politoed: Oh, it's you. The problem. Or the biggest problem, anyway.
Gengar: Dream World hates him.
Skarmory: Did ANYONE try Weak Armor?
Thundurus: Now, I can't imagine people missing Defiant when Prankster is so amazing. Assuming this guy doesn't get banned, however, having a +1 priority Rain Dance would actually give Rain a good way to continue to be a threat.
Jellicent: Nerfed Explosion means Damp isn't worth the time.
Starmie: Analytic seems like a great ability, but with Starmie's base 115 Speed you're actually going to have to do work to make yourself move second. Stick with being a good status absorber.
Volcarona: You could argue Swarm is a loss, yes. But with the way Volcarona is pretty much forced to play, it's not the end of the world.
Infernape: Iron Fist definitely outclasses Blaze (most abilities do, really). But Nape's selling point has always been his great amount of coverage and the relative unpredictability that accompanies that. Yes, he loses the power with Mach Punch, but he's still not losing what makes him a threat to so many teams.
Gyarados: Moxie is actually one of my favorite new abilities this gen (despite the name being ruined in translation >.>), but, currently, Gyarados isn't one of the Pokemon that puts it to best use, imo. The combination of type, bulk, Intimidate, and excessive Scizor usage have made him take on a decidedly more walling role. Obviously you can still sweep, but you're just as likely to get in a couple of DDs by Intimidating and forcing a switch as you are to get a KO to activate the Moxie boost.
Blissey: Everyone's using Healer, right?
Forretress: Overcoat seems like it would be a good ability in theory, but on Forry is a complete waste. Sturdy rules.
Ninetales: Oh hey, another one of the ones that everyone's so upset about.
Hydreigon: Nothing from DW.
Haxorus: Same thing as Ttar, really. Oh, and have you seen what CB Rivalry Outrage does to things? Or how Mold Breaker EQ trolls Levitate Pokemon? He's in no danger.
Salamence: Unlike Gyarados, Mence probably puts Moxie to better use than Intimidate. DM to net a KO, then try and pull off the sweep with your boosted Attack. And speed boosts (from DD) are irrelevant because the #1 counter to Mence/Chomp is Ice Shard. But to be fair I'm not really that up to date on what people are doing with Mence.
Magnezone: Since his #1 job by far is trapping and killing problematic Steels, I'm say dropping Magnet Pull might make his job a bit problematic.
Terrakion: No objections here.
Vaporeon: Losing Hydration is annoying, since Hydrarest on something with such good bulk is great. But without permanent Rain to Rest in, Hydrarest becomes somewhat less potent.
Metagross: Light Metal is still dumb.
Breloom: Losing Technicloom is another one of the big hits that would come from ditching Dream World. Spore + boosted priority makes for a pretty nasty combo. Fortunately, Breloom's still fairly capable of handling himself with the classic Spore + SubPunch set.
Chandelure: The DW ability still isn't released, yeah? So not a huge deal yet, but certainly a loss for when it is released, since he's such a great revenge killer.
Swampert: Damp isn't doing anything for him.
Cloyster: Overcoat isn't a loss, especially when Skill Link + Shell Smash can tear down teams.
Scrafty: While Intimidate's decent, it's the general consensus that physical sweepers (particularly bulky ones like Scrafty) are better off with abilities that deal with status, and Shed Skin's all about that.
Hippowdon: I guess Sand Force is for people who want to play with Hippo on teams without Sandstorm? Wait a second...
Tentacruel: Another one I'm not really familiar with, honestly. But since he's a wall, Rain Dish goes along with it. But with spinning and immunity to T-Spikes, Tentacruel's going to keep a decent spot in usage.
Lucario: Justified is great if you can switch yourself in on a Dark move. But Luke's really more intent on setting up with one of his many viable sets and going to work. It's a small loss, really, since you have to predict the Dark attack just right.
Machamp: Steadfast? Stick with 100% accuracy Dynamicpunches.
Deoxys-S: Nadda.
Toxicroak: Poison Touch isn't much when it's up against Dry Skin, imo. And with Rain team usage dropping dramatically if Politoed is banned, Toxicroak's probably going to be on his way to UU.
Virizion: Not unlike his rockier cousin, Virizion could care less about DW.
Espeon: This is probably one of the biggest losses that would come with removing DW from OU. Magic Mirror Espeon is pretty much amazing with proper prediction, wrecking hazards and status. It's one of the cases where the new ability really turned an OK Pokemon into something awesome.
Bronzong: Heavy Metal? Genius.
Porygon2: Now, unlike Starmie, Porygon2 is slow enough to make use of Analytic, and with Eviolite has enough bulk to survive going second. Compared to Download, it's a bit weaker, but more reliable (assuming you're slower). Dunno how much Trace is used, tbh.
Mienshao: Gaining HP back with Regenerator is far better than taking more damage with Reckless. Moving on.
Venasaur: Another weather sweeper that will probably drop down into obscurity without stable sunlight. Though, unlike some weather Pokemon, Venasaur can get his setup out of the way in a turn or two with Growth, and then hopefully tank a hit or two to hit with his super-boosted attack powers.
Landorus: It's pretty much no contest that Sand Force is better in the case of Landorus. If all perma-weather is banned, it's another story, tho.
Now, that's obviously a far-from-comprehensive list.
Slowbro: Regenerator turns this guy into a great wall, capable of sticking around for quite a while as long as you switch him out often enough. And since his other two abilities are pretty well wasted, losing the HP gain is a nasty blow.
Slowking: Same thing as above, honestly.
Blaziken: The problem child. Take away his Speed Boost, though, and he's right back down to UU where he belongs.
Quagsire: This, similar to Espeon, would be a big loss, I think. Unaware Quagsire is all about messing with sweepers who have already set up. Yeah, he's not flawless, but he's definitely able to stick around for a while if you can avoid status.
Nidoking: He's one of my favorites, so I felt like throwing him in. This is the definition of Sheer Force, and I love him for it. Obviously he's doomed without it.
Slowking: Same thing as above, honestly.
Blaziken: The problem child. Take away his Speed Boost, though, and he's right back down to UU where he belongs.
Quagsire: This, similar to Espeon, would be a big loss, I think. Unaware Quagsire is all about messing with sweepers who have already set up. Yeah, he's not flawless, but he's definitely able to stick around for a while if you can avoid status.
Nidoking: He's one of my favorites, so I felt like throwing him in. This is the definition of Sheer Force, and I love him for it. Obviously he's doomed without it.
Ok, assuming you've read through all of the above spoilers, try and hold your rage for just a bit longer.
Obviously, Dream World is not entirely "broken," as some would call so much of the current metagame. But I think that by removing the biggest complaints with a blanket ban on DW is worth losing the really good things it brings to the table (Quagsire and Espeon sticking out the most in my mind).
"But what about all of us who still want to play with all of the DW abilities, you idiot?!"
Easy. The DW tier's been around practically since BW came out. And without any restrictions on usage, you've been able to rock out with Genesect and Shadow Tag Chandelure and the like. Now, with the invention of the "RU" tier popping up, the already-turbulent tiering of everything is going to go even more nuts. So would it really be that impossible to essentially split up OU into a non-DW and a DW OU permanently. This allows people who are just vehemently opposed to all of those Rain/Sun teams work where it's banned.
Note, of course, that this wouldn't remove the presence of Sandstorm and Hail. Hail's certainly annoying, but who isn't packing some Fire moves nowadays? And since Fighting is pretty much the MVP type of this gen (at least it was initially; Dragon's having a go at it right now), both Tyranitar and Abomasnow are going to have to watch out.
Now, Hail is certainly the least-opposed weather. So on Sandstorm. Really, the only thing I can see as a huge thing in Sandstorm is Excadrill. And yes, he's a very big thing. But he shares Ttar's Fighting weakness and Abomasnow's Fire weakness, and it's really not impossible to counter him. And if all else fails, you either ban him fully, or just ban Sand Rush (not worth banning the ability combo like SS+RD, since the purpose of this is to make the ban less complicated). Honestly, I think Excadrill is the only one who can overwhelmingly abuse a blanket DW ban, and that's not bad compared to how many Pokemon people are bothered by.
"But what about all of us who still want to play with all of the DW abilities, you idiot?!"
Easy. The DW tier's been around practically since BW came out. And without any restrictions on usage, you've been able to rock out with Genesect and Shadow Tag Chandelure and the like. Now, with the invention of the "RU" tier popping up, the already-turbulent tiering of everything is going to go even more nuts. So would it really be that impossible to essentially split up OU into a non-DW and a DW OU permanently. This allows people who are just vehemently opposed to all of those Rain/Sun teams work where it's banned.
Note, of course, that this wouldn't remove the presence of Sandstorm and Hail. Hail's certainly annoying, but who isn't packing some Fire moves nowadays? And since Fighting is pretty much the MVP type of this gen (at least it was initially; Dragon's having a go at it right now), both Tyranitar and Abomasnow are going to have to watch out.
Now, Hail is certainly the least-opposed weather. So on Sandstorm. Really, the only thing I can see as a huge thing in Sandstorm is Excadrill. And yes, he's a very big thing. But he shares Ttar's Fighting weakness and Abomasnow's Fire weakness, and it's really not impossible to counter him. And if all else fails, you either ban him fully, or just ban Sand Rush (not worth banning the ability combo like SS+RD, since the purpose of this is to make the ban less complicated). Honestly, I think Excadrill is the only one who can overwhelmingly abuse a blanket DW ban, and that's not bad compared to how many Pokemon people are bothered by.
For the record, I think banning stuff in general is kinda silly. I'm not the best battler, but I think going crazy nerfing specific things for the sake of "balance" is a bit overkill. Particularly when we've seen in various testing phases of previous Gens that previously "overpowered" Pokemon weren't really all that bad, assuming you kept them in mind when designing your team (Deoxys-S testing comes to mind, but other people know better than me, surely. I really don't keep up with it that closely.)
Ok, assuming you read all (or most) of this fairly deceptive tl;dr post...
Flame away :DD
Besides the fact that the proposal is absurd and doesn't have much reasoning, this is not at all the place to discuss this. This thread is discussing complex bans and why they shouldn't (or should) happen.
I disrespectfully beg to differ o.o
What I said is essentially: Ban one condition.
Maybe it seems complicated, but it's really just removing the bulk of what's considered problematic in one comprehensive ban. What follows that ban would possibly a bit complex, sure, but the ban itself isn't nearly as intricate as banning Ability1+Ability2 and PokemonX if he meets a certain condition.
And you, sir, might've missed the boat on "friendly" discussion.
What I said is essentially: Ban one condition.
Maybe it seems complicated, but it's really just removing the bulk of what's considered problematic in one comprehensive ban. What follows that ban would possibly a bit complex, sure, but the ban itself isn't nearly as intricate as banning Ability1+Ability2 and PokemonX if he meets a certain condition.
And you, sir, might've missed the boat on "friendly" discussion.
banning dream world is ridiculous. It is quite literally the dumbest proposal i have heard yet. yes it brakes a few pokemon(breloom/chandelure) but it also makes many others shine and gives them place. Cradily for example is actually pretty useful now with stormdrain. quagsire is also now usefull because of unaware. your retying to remvoe the single largest addition to the games so far.
also ya this isn't the thread for that anyway.
also ya this isn't the thread for that anyway.
On topic:
My main point is that we should NOT dismiss a solution, such as a combination ban, solely because of the technicalities. We should take them into account just as we take into account simple bans.
If a Combination Ban is effective, it stays indefinitely, just like simple bans. I don't see why we need to treat it any differently.
So, hypothetically (again don't focus on the example, but the point I am trying to make), if Smash Pass was deemed broken next round, would we disregard Shell Smash + Baton Pass ban just for the sake of keeping things simple? Do we have to resort to banning Huntail, Gorebyss, and Smeargle? 3 totally viable monsters, which can utilize other viable sets, banished from all tiers because of 1 undesirable aspect? Is keeping technicalities of keeping ban simple overweigh the usage of Monsters? This would be a perfect case where a Combination Ban would be superior over simple ban.
I understand that "if everything holding X is broken with X then we ban X. If it's not the case, ban the individual Pokemon" is the primary argument that has been used in suspect discussions for justifying bans. You have been using it as a counter-argument, and I had used this argument, too. At first it makes logical sense, but then you find exceptions to the rule and realize how it could be unnecessarily stringent and inflexible.
An example underlying the problem would be Soul Dew. Under that reasoning, Latias and Latios would be banned by default when Soul Dew becomes available due to their brokenness with Soul Dew. We cannot ban Soul Dew because it does not break any other Pokemon holding it. I mean, logically, we would ban Soul Dew, like we have done in Gen IV; I think there is no argument there (I understand that the Lati ended up in the uber tier, but Soul Dew was not the reason).
"If X does not break everything, we only ban Pokemon" is thus a valid argument, but this justification is NEITHER NECESSARY NOR SUFFICIENT to consider other solutions (such as combination ban / Soul Dew Clause).
In the end it is all about analyzing the problem and solving the problem, for the sake of maintaining a balanced metagame. This should be the primary objective. Don't drop the ban hammer needlessly for the sake of simplicity and other technicalities.
Okay, I think we should shift our focus from Aldaron's Proposal to Combination ban in general. I think you're too caught up on the Drizzle / Garchomp issue, making it hard to come to agreements.
My main point is that we should NOT dismiss a solution, such as a combination ban, solely because of the technicalities. We should take them into account just as we take into account simple bans.
If a Combination Ban is effective, it stays indefinitely, just like simple bans. I don't see why we need to treat it any differently.
So, hypothetically (again don't focus on the example, but the point I am trying to make), if Smash Pass was deemed broken next round, would we disregard Shell Smash + Baton Pass ban just for the sake of keeping things simple? Do we have to resort to banning Huntail, Gorebyss, and Smeargle? 3 totally viable monsters, which can utilize other viable sets, banished from all tiers because of 1 undesirable aspect? Is keeping technicalities of keeping ban simple overweigh the usage of Monsters? This would be a perfect case where a Combination Ban would be superior over simple ban.
I understand that "if everything holding X is broken with X then we ban X. If it's not the case, ban the individual Pokemon" is the primary argument that has been used in suspect discussions for justifying bans. You have been using it as a counter-argument, and I had used this argument, too. At first it makes logical sense, but then you find exceptions to the rule and realize how it could be unnecessarily stringent and inflexible.
An example underlying the problem would be Soul Dew. Under that reasoning, Latias and Latios would be banned by default when Soul Dew becomes available due to their brokenness with Soul Dew. We cannot ban Soul Dew because it does not break any other Pokemon holding it. I mean, logically, we would ban Soul Dew, like we have done in Gen IV; I think there is no argument there (I understand that the Lati ended up in the uber tier, but Soul Dew was not the reason).
"If X does not break everything, we only ban Pokemon" is thus a valid argument, but this justification is NEITHER NECESSARY NOR SUFFICIENT to consider other solutions (such as combination ban / Soul Dew Clause).
In the end it is all about analyzing the problem and solving the problem, for the sake of maintaining a balanced metagame. This should be the primary objective. Don't drop the ban hammer needlessly for the sake of simplicity and other technicalities.
Unfortunately, I believe we do. And as for why, I will point out exactly what you just said:
Blaziken. Shaymin-S. Manaphy. 3 Pokemon, who may not be broken without "1 undesirable aspect." If we make complex bans to keep Smeargle, Huntail and Gorebyss out of ubers, why shouldn't we do the same with these 3? There is no logical reason why we should do one, but not the other, other then the fact that some people just don't think guys like Smeargle should be uber.
You're right, by the given rule, that would mean the Latis should be banned, however, I think that is manipulating that rule to show a point. A better way of saying the rule would be "if everything holding and affected by X is broken with X then we ban X. If it's not the case, ban the individual Pokemon." If something does not affect a Pokemon at all, then that Pokemon should not be taken into account when considering banning it. The fact that Soul Dew does not break Dunsparce is irreverent, because it has no effect on Dunsparce, and no Dunsparce will ever use Soul Dew. Claiming that Latis should be banned instead because of its lack of effect on other Pokemon would almost be like saying Moody shouldn't be banned because Unown isn't broken with it. It may be true that X does not break all Y, but as long as it breaks all Y on which it has an effect, X needs to go.
I will agree here though. Making a balanced metagame should come first, but I believe using complex bans to do so should be avoided, because by instituting complex bans it is possible to make any Pokemon part of a balanced meta, and it boils down to a game of favorites.
Hmm. Shouldn't we just ban Excadrill and call it a day, instead of making Stoutland utterly useless in OU (well you mentioned Cacturne and Sand Veil Gliscor, so...)? Besides, Landorus is ~50th in usage, trying to preemptively ban doesn't seem right to me. ban Drizzle, Garchomp and possibly Excadrill and we may talk.
Interesting thread, I swear I was expecting some half-assed anti-weather tirade.
And it also depends on WHO is biased. There are a lot of people who liked Blaziken, too. But nobody listened to them, not even the ones that weren't me. But first Kabutops, Kingdra, and Ludicolo, and next Smeargle, Huntail, and Gorebyss, were complex banned.
We have to complex ban all of them or none of them.
Balance over what is favorable.
The very purpose of exclusion in gaming. Has always been for the sake of balance in competitive play. Major tournaments have a very solid list of. What is and not allowed. While minor competitive play seems to leave certain things out. Only be be found after a long period of abuse.
0-100 = Low
101-200 = Below Average
201-300 = Average
301-400 = Above Average
401-500 = High
The following numbers are my take. On the ranges that statistics can take. 300 is generally around the cap for your average Pokemon. While, 500 is the max for your higher statistic Pokemon.
While, a Pokemon with 200-300 Attack. Can knock out a Pokemon with 500 to Defense. There is something I like to refer to the "Breaker Limit".
The Breaker Limit is a statistical edge. Which robs the opponent. Of any realistic chance to win the match. Sword Dance for example. Could turn that 300 Attack into 360 Attack in one turn. This is still possible to counter. Even after three Sword Dances. If the attacker can even survive for that long. This still only equals up to 300 + 60% = 480.
The max a balanced Pokemon in the game can have. Without any statistic increasing move is around 500. Not counting Hp Leaning Chansey. Which sacrifices other statistics to get that high.
Its once you get past this 500 range that things start to get out of hand. It can be realistically expected. That an attacker can knock out there opponent in 2 to 3 turns.
So, here is my proposal for balance. Instead of banning any particular moves. Instead, ban the use of those moves. On any Pokemon that can exceed 500 in any one statistic. In less than 3 turns. This includes not only +% moves. But, also anything that can indirectly raise your statistics to insane levels. This would allow all moves to remain. Plus, it would give even Pokemon with Average Statistics. A realistic chance of competition against "Ubers".
Example: Sword Dance is not allowed on Arceus. Because he can reach over 500 in attack in a single Sword Dance. Plus, can reach over 500 in speed after two. No grouping of items could be used. To try to sneak around the rules. It has to remain a solid rule. You can not exceed over 500 in any statistic. In less than 3 turns.
Baton Passing to Rattata. Would be legal in just about any possible cases. Since it requires +100% to Attack and/or Speed. In order to reach over 500 to any statistics. Even a +40% move would require 3 turns to reach +120%. So, this would still be in line with the 3 turn rule.
The very purpose of exclusion in gaming. Has always been for the sake of balance in competitive play. Major tournaments have a very solid list of. What is and not allowed. While minor competitive play seems to leave certain things out. Only be be found after a long period of abuse.
0-100 = Low
101-200 = Below Average
201-300 = Average
301-400 = Above Average
401-500 = High
The following numbers are my take. On the ranges that statistics can take. 300 is generally around the cap for your average Pokemon. While, 500 is the max for your higher statistic Pokemon.
While, a Pokemon with 200-300 Attack. Can knock out a Pokemon with 500 to Defense. There is something I like to refer to the "Breaker Limit".
The Breaker Limit is a statistical edge. Which robs the opponent. Of any realistic chance to win the match. Sword Dance for example. Could turn that 300 Attack into 360 Attack in one turn. This is still possible to counter. Even after three Sword Dances. If the attacker can even survive for that long. This still only equals up to 300 + 60% = 480.
The max a balanced Pokemon in the game can have. Without any statistic increasing move is around 500. Not counting Hp Leaning Chansey. Which sacrifices other statistics to get that high.
Its once you get past this 500 range that things start to get out of hand. It can be realistically expected. That an attacker can knock out there opponent in 2 to 3 turns.
So, here is my proposal for balance. Instead of banning any particular moves. Instead, ban the use of those moves. On any Pokemon that can exceed 500 in any one statistic. In less than 3 turns. This includes not only +% moves. But, also anything that can indirectly raise your statistics to insane levels. This would allow all moves to remain. Plus, it would give even Pokemon with Average Statistics. A realistic chance of competition against "Ubers".
Example: Sword Dance is not allowed on Arceus. Because he can reach over 500 in attack in a single Sword Dance. Plus, can reach over 500 in speed after two. No grouping of items could be used. To try to sneak around the rules. It has to remain a solid rule. You can not exceed over 500 in any statistic. In less than 3 turns.
Baton Passing to Rattata. Would be legal in just about any possible cases. Since it requires +100% to Attack and/or Speed. In order to reach over 500 to any statistics. Even a +40% move would require 3 turns to reach +120%. So, this would still be in line with the 3 turn rule.
You have a point. Landorus is pretty strong in the sand though. If drizzle were gone it would be top 10 easily. The only issue it has is beating rotom and stuff like ferrothorn. But you can solve that with a swords dance set. But then you lose the chance to hit gliscor. The substitute set in the sand is pretty much game over if you don't have rain up or a scarm or bronzong.