Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Jayd]

Crawdaunt is a pretty cool pokemon, but its sorely outclassed by azumarill, who can actually switch-in on shit and function as an offensive pivot. Crawdaunt cannot switch-in on anything and relying on just aqua jet is really dumb without rain. Water/Fairy is such an excellent typing that Water/Dark cannot even begin to compare to. I'll just leave it at that.

Sigh. I specifically referred readers to the Crawdaunt thread for this, where Alexwolf and others argued at length to demonstrate that Crawdaunt is not outclassed by Azumarill. Basically Azumarill is capable of being that offensive pivot like you say because of its defensive capabilities, but Crawdaunt is a stronger offensive presence (and not insignificantly so). The two are played differently and have significantly different capabilities. Azumarill may be better overall, but it does not outclass Crawdaunt.

Mega Obamasnow is a sad case. I used him in a TR team in OU once, and no matter how hard I tried to specialize mega obamasnow into a team, it only peaked above 2000 once. This is because of his amazing amount of weaknesses, which includes rocks, brave bird, mach punch, bullet punch, and u-turn. It brings so many weaknesses to a team it most certainly needs more support than simply hazard control. It's true the not a lot can switch-in to it's great moves, but a couple come into mind:
1) Genesect can take any one hit and threaten you out with everything, making you lose momentum.
2) Heatran can come in on both STABs and kill you before you can eq. Earthquaking on the switch is the only way to go, and if you risk it with the pokemon that is currently in, chances are that its offensive and you're dead.
3) Aegislash is a big problem, with tank-slash taking less than 50% from eq and retaliating for huge damage with shadow ball or iron head.

That's just many of the possible switch-ins that's easy to abuse him. His "bulk" means that you will have to invest a large amount of your evs into hp, meaning your earthquakes are even weaker as your switch-ins grow. Mega obamasnow is just not a pokemon meant for this tier.

The argument for M-Abomasnow is weaker than Crawdaunt's (possibly since I've used it less and am therefore a bit less confident in its abilities) but the issues you highlight seem overstated. The three switch ins you mentioned are as good as they get for Abomasnow (you'd have to tell me about the "many possible" other ones, because when I think about it and look through the list I'm not seeing them) and even they cannot switch in more than twice (Heatran can't switch in at all with correct prediction, therefore it's not strictly a switch in at all in this context). If that's the best the tier can do to defend itself I think my statement that he is "virtually impossible" to switch into safely is vindicated. Genesect also makes just about everything lose momentum. It's why he's being suspected.

As for the threatening moves you listed: Brave Bird is a Talonflame threat pretty much exclusively, and yes Talonflame revenges. But it can't switch in (252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 141-166 (91.5 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO). Talonflame revenges a lot. That's not really a con.

Mach Punch and Bullet Punch are also small issues. Abomasnow is so slow that priority is only something to consider when you are trying to pick something off with Ice Shard. And they are so weak that they can't do too much anyway. Here's the scariest Mach Punch: 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Mega Abomasnow: 86-104 (43.6 - 52.7%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO.

As for U-turn, you just have no right switching into a U-turner. If they have to switch into you, however, they take a hard lash. If you have hazards up they are going to be really shaken up by the whole thing.

None of the threats you mentioned are devastating to Mega Abomasnow's viability in the rank I suggested for it:

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

Donphan's OU analysis was recently rejected as it was deemed unviable in OU. Therefore, it is ineligible for this list. Good riddance!

This gen of the rejects that i don't understand (the other being Jolteon and Arcanine). I'm on the lower-medium ladder (which i think it's way more fun than the higher ladder) and I have to drop Rapid Spin Excadrill for Swords Dance and I don't what to do with him and for one reason: it gets killed more easily than you may think.
Possibility because I'm recent but many of the times that you spin with Excadrill you don't know nothing else because your opponent 2HKO/OHKOs.

I admit that using Donphan has big flaws and has issues, but I compared the Top and I find fvery few pokemon that can reliable switch into them if Excadrill don't want to get crippled. And you are surprised about how rare are Special Water, grass and Ice types are in this metagame.

And about that

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 177-208 (46 - 54.1%) -- 4.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Not guaranteed 2HKO from Adamant Mawile even though it doesn't resist it. Impressive. And it spped ties.
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 225-265 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Well, one of the exceptions but the pokemon that are threathen by mega Medicham is so high that's not even funny.
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 180-214 (46.8 - 55.7%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery I don't want to discuss a broken pokemon.
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 380-447 (98.9 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO It's rare to see in the metagamne. Also it's a bit underrated.
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 306-360 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery One of the few that prove your point.

I will say this, the best spinner right now is not Excadrill, it's Mega Blastoise, and possibly with difference. But I think that Donphan is only clearly worse in spinning than 1) MegaBlastoise, 2) Excadrill and 3) Starmie. And it's only worse than Mega Blastoise which can take well physical AND special sets and has a excellent ofensive presence. Defog is different. Defog are for teams that don't use hazards (remember that Defog removes your hazards; in fact it was what usually only did for the past two gens).

I think that many pokemon are going to be rejected the moment the pokemon is worse than another even if it's only partially overshadowed by some ways. Donphan(and it's not the only case) has a low OU position for a reason, it probably be rejected because if not, some pokemon needs 7+ viable analysis ( Heatran, Garchomp (adding Mega), Scizor, Tyranitar, Venusaur, Gengar, Togekiss, Gyarados, Latios, Clefable, Starmie and Salamence as far as I remember) and the OU staff don't want to have a pokedex full of D and C pokemon.

 

[typon77]

Donphan

Seriously, nobody legitimate uses Donphan. Stop being so aggressive with your arguments. Claiming that he "battles in the 1000s" is immature and unproductive. Also, you attack people for claiming that Donphan has to switch into physical threats, but then calling them out for "trying to switch Bisharp into Donphan". If you want people to take your arguments seriously, stop using support other than "no IDIOT Donphan beats Bisharp. Your argument is ridiculous, do you even hear what you're saying".

Donphan accomplishes virtually nothing in this metagame. Sure you can switch into physical threats once or twice and MAYBE get a spin off, but the fact of the matter is that Donphan can only switch in a very limited number of times due to his complete lack of recovery. His typing does let him wall some specific moves like Stone Edge, but he still gets 2HKO'd or virtually 2HKO'd by a lot of the prominent physical attackers in the tier. Over the course of the battle, it only takes about 2 switch ins for Donphan to be incapacitated. Srn was right when he said that Defensive Spinners aren't nearly as good in this metagame, since the defensive spinners all completely lack recovery and provide a huge loss of momentum and free switch ins for some pretty scary stuff. In the future, try being more respectful with your arguments, however, I'm anticipating you to respond to this post with a "LOL I cant believe you even said that, Donphan is so GOOD omgomg", so whatever.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Defog are for teams that don't use hazards

No, defog are for teams that absolutely cannont function with rocks on the field (like fly spam). Spinning is not reliable for these teams most of the time because it can be blocked with a switch.

 

[Tesung]

^fat every one said
" tl;dr"

Why the fuck are people even using rapid spin. Last gen, Donphan had a tiny niche of being a defensive rapid spinner for sun because it took on threats to sun, and could sometimes spin which sun needed. This niche was mostly their because there were 4 usable spinners, two of which were waters. However, this gen, we have this new shit called defog, which always works and has soooo much better distribution. The only serious team I would use rapid spin on are either deo hyper offense that don't like hazards, (still probably wouldn't ), fly spam (just cuz exca fits really well) , and maybe stall that fears deosharp but still no. Donphan is an outclassed user of an outclassed move. If we had 1850 stats, it would get no usage their.

Anyways, I nominated bisharp for A+ and it got a little love before Donphan ate this thread, what do people think

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

I leave this thread for a couple days and it blows up about as bad as the Suspect Test Discussion Thread. I read most of the thread, but not all. I was actually kinda sick by the time Deoxys-S to A+ was mentioned, but I'm not going to argue that today. All this post is going to do is support claims from others on OTHER Pokemon (and as of today, all mentions of this "Donphan"...whatever it is, will be replaced with "Elephant of Lame" as even its name causes such a problem).

Ninetales for D rank is a joke. If you want to use sun offense without manual sunny day, you have to use Ninetales, and sun offense is still a viable playstyle, as you can still get ~14-20 turns of sun as long as you don't play too stupid with Ninetales and the opponent doesn't have ihis own weather. Lead with Tales, bring her in again after something dies in ~7-8 turns, and then bring her one last time to sac her and bring the sun up one last time. With the offensive monsters that sun has at its disposal you should have no problem ending the game fast anyway, except against full stall with lots of Protect users. Ninetales should be somewhere in B rank, though i am not sure where.

I second this, though I'd argue B- for Ninetales just for the fact that some Pokemon easily threaten it (Tyranitar, Heatran, Politoed, Hippowdon) and its coverage moves aren't THAT great. To be fair, though, Sun is still a great team support, giving quite a few Pokemon the chance it needs to sweep (Chlorophyll Venusaur?).

Nominating Elephant of Lame to Blacklist. It should have become general consensus that it isn't a really good Pokémon, facing stiff competition with Skarmory, Hippowdon, Mega Scizor and the likes, and seriously i'm tired of read the same shit about him every time

Elephant of Lame has had too much talk. Make C-, put it there, and finally blacklist it so we can stop. This has become the new Mega Venusaur and its extraordinarily annoying to see that people can't leave it alone (I'm looking at you, Mega Lucario in the Suspect Thread). I don't see why to use it over Excadrill.

Finally, I'd love to see Kyurem higher (yes, Base Kyurem), but I'm not entirely sure HOW much higher. SubRoost combined with Pressure can stall out some Pokemon with low BP moves and its coverage is quite impressive. It's not great--priority hurts it pretty badly in the formes of Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, and Bullet Punch, while its coverage options are limited to two choices on the SubRoost set, but it still has the Uber stats (good bulk and great offenses) and just the right movepool.

Bisharp for A+

I second this, actually. Bisharp only gained this Gen with Knock Off, the uprise of Defog which can activate Defiant, and its great offenses still being its greatest asset.

 

[Baharoth]

Seriously, nobody legitimate uses Donphan. Stop being so aggressive with your arguments. Claiming that he "battles in the 1000s" is immature and unproductive.

In the future, try being more respectful with your arguments

Did u read the post i was replying to? Do it and u know why i respond like that. I show the ppl the respect they deserve and after a post like that srn didnt deserve anything else.

Id realy like to have a mature and reasonable discussion about this topic but that seems to be impossible with ppl like srn9130 around who think they can replace arguments with arrogance saying that everybody who uses donphan is a noob. Not to mention all the "omg donphan is crap blacklist that thing already" ppl bumping in all the time. Most of the donphan haters here dont even try to make arguments and the rest always recycles the same statements that are simply wrong as stated so many times. Like for example "Donphan is crap because he is outclassed by excadrill" ignoring that they fill completly different roles or the "he cant hurt rotom-w" argument, like he needs to as a spinner.

Regarding ur arguments about donphan i realy dont feel like replying to that anymore. Everythings already said more than once either here or in the donphan thread, i suggest u read through it. Also since donphan doesnt get an analysis anymore the whole thing is off the table anyway.

 

[Photofluid]

I think that many pokemon are going to be rejected the moment the pokemon is worse than another even if it's only partially overshadowed by some ways. Donphan(and it's not the only case) has a low OU position for a reason, it probably be rejected because if not, some pokemon needs 7+ analysis ( Heatran, Garchomp (adding Mega), Scizor, Tyranitar, Venusaur, Gengar, Togekiss, Gyarados, Latios, Clefable, Starmie and Salamence as far as I remember)

What ever reason it is rejected, we may perhaps drop the discussion here for a while because I recall that being a requirement, though I am curious about that 7+ analysis thing because I clearly don't understand that statement = =


And btw, just a matter of fact, the fact that defog also removes your own EH means that it can be a huge momentum loser if you are hazard relient. Oh, being hazard relient does not mean you need to break sturdies and slashes with it, but that SR is currently the best way, if not occasionally the only way, for one to constrain Pinsir, Zard Y, TF and to a less extend Zard X. Using defog means that in those cases you will have to endure the EH on your own field for a while.

 

[Farobi]

Is Infernape good in this metagame? What about Conkeldurr?

How did Bisharp and Clefable get high ranks in the Viability thread?

I haven't been online for months, so I'd like to know this :]

 

[LoDart210]

Why hasn't tangrowth been put into the OP as a B rank tank?
It was practically unanimously agreed that it deserved that, as its AV set was absolutely awesome.

Back me up alexwolf

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Is Infernape good in this metagame? What about Conkeldurr?

How did Bisharp and Clefable get high ranks in the Viability thread?

I haven't been online for months, so I'd like to know this :]

Infernape has fallen from grace a bit (worked well in Sun), but it's still usable. Conkeldurr has gained from Assault Vest, which is always great.

Bisharp's natural greatness, along with the improvement of Defog, makes it a Defog Repellant of sorts thanks to Defiant.

Clefable's Fairy Typing along with Magic Guard, Heal Bell, Wish Passing, Cosmic Power annoyance--did I mention the Fairy Typing makes it better? Yeah...Clefable gained significantly while maintaining what made it decent previously, rivaling Chansey in terms of support sometimes.

Somebody with even more experience can go into more detail. I'm sick and need some sleep...

 

[CrymsonEchidna]

At the risk of reigniting the crapstorm, I just wanted to point this out about Donphan:

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.

Donphan's only niche is as a Rapid Spinner. In a Gen where Donphan has to compete both with not only other better rapid spinnners, but rapid spin itself is facing competition from defog. Even a C-Rank is to high for it because Donphan literally doesn't have anything unique to actually set it apart.

The only other thing Donphan could possibly function as is a defensive wall, but outside of leftovers, it has no form of recovery.

 

[Pyritie]

Is Infernape good in this metagame?

With all the burns flying around, his fire typing helps

Id realy like to have a mature and reasonable discussion about this topic but that seems to be impossible with ppl like srn9130 around who think they can replace arguments with arrogance saying that everybody who uses donphan is a noob. Not to mention all the "omg donphan is crap blacklist that thing already" ppl bumping in all the time. Most of the donphan haters here dont even try to make arguments and the rest always recycles the same statements that are simply wrong as stated so many times. Like for example "Donphan is crap because he is outclassed by excadrill" ignoring that they fill completly different roles or the "he cant hurt rotom-w" argument, like he needs to as a spinner.

Regarding ur arguments about donphan i realy dont feel like replying to that anymore. Everythings already said more than once either here or in the donphan thread, i suggest u read through it. Also since donphan doesnt get an analysis anymore the whole thing is off the table anyway.

I'm convinced you didn't even read the points people have brought up about Donphan and now you're just resorting to sticking your fingers in your ears and going la la la la. If you want a "mature and reasonable discussion", you're going about it in entirely the wrong way.

 

[Baharoth]

With all the burns flying around, his fire typing helps



I'm convinced you didn't even read the points people have brought up about Donphan and now you're just resorting to sticking your fingers in your ears and going la la la la. If you want a "mature and reasonable discussion", you're going about it in entirely the wrong way.

Ur free to think that. Just as i am convinced that u didnt read any of my previous posts regarding donphan neither here nor in the donphan thread. If u want to go on with the discussion thats fine with me, but with the rejection of donphans analysis and most ppl here not wanting to hear anything more about it i am pretty sure it will be blacklisted soon so i dont think that there is any point to it.

 

[NoahStar]

Ur free to think that. Just as i am convinced that u didnt read any of my previous posts regarding donphan neither here nor in the donphan thread. If u want to go on with the discussion thats fine with me, but with the rejection of donphans analysis and most ppl here not wanting to hear anything more about it i am pretty sure it will be blacklisted soon so i dont think that there is any point to it.

It doesn't need to be blacklisted anymore. Its no longer eligible for the list because its not getting an OU analysis.

 

[Baharoth]

Oh that was also true for arcanis and florges^^ didnt stop the discussion though...

 

[Chev]

Ur free to think that. Just as i am convinced that u didnt read any of my previous posts regarding donphan neither here nor in the donphan thread. If u want to go on with the discussion thats fine with me, but with the rejection of donphans analysis and most ppl here not wanting to hear anything more about it i am pretty sure it will be blacklisted soon so i dont think that there is any point to it.

Please, fix your spelling. You look like a punk-ass 12 year old when you don't bother to at least try to properly form your words. It isn't saving time, and it makes you look like an idiot. No one will want to have an "intelligent conversation" with you as you obviously aren't intelligent.

Infernape is actually a 'mon I've been using a bit lately. He performs very well as a cleaner. The only fault I've seen with him so far is he is not quite powerful enough to be a full sweeper, unless I were to invest into a Choice item. But overall, I'd say between his U-turn pivot set, and/or cleaner set, he is definitely a solid contender in the current meta game.

 

[Baharoth]

Please, fix your spelling. You look like a punk-ass 12 year old when you don't bother to at least try to properly form your words. It isn't saving time, and it makes you look like an idiot. No one will want to have an "intelligent conversation" with you as you obviously aren't intelligent.

And flaming is a sign of intelligence i guess.

 

[KztxL7]

How did Bisharp and Clefable get high ranks in the Viability thread?

Bisharp:
-Only Steel that resists both Ghost and Dark
-STAB Dark Attacks which is great with Steel losing its resists to Dark and Ghost
-Priority STAB with Sucker Punch backed by 125 Base Attack
-Knock Off got a huge buff in damage, even more so when it knocks off an item.
-Defiant makes it insane off Defog, Sticky Web and Intimidate
-Potential Check to Aegislash because of Defiant giving the middle finger to King's Shield
-Pursuit user

Clefable:
-Fairy Typing is a HUGE boon for it
-Magic Guard
-Can be Spec'd Physically or Specially Defensive and do well at it.
-3 Forms of Recovery and one is Wish Passing
-That Movepool. Dear God
-Got its base SpA based by 10 this generation
-Unaware allows it to stop some boosting sweepers

 

[Talpr0ne]

we should also mention unaware for clefable, even if it's a bit inferior to Magic Guard.

 

[Photofluid]

To avoid this post being completely shit, I would like to ask why Scizor is high in A? I honestly can't see the reason behind, and oh, it also comes some eleven or twelve on the usage list, even more mysterious to me.

 

[alexwolf]

Why hasn't tangrowth been put into the OP as a B rank tank?
It was practically unanimously agreed that it deserved that, as its AV set was absolutely awesome.

Back me up alexwolf

Yeah Tangrowth's AV set is monstrous and has a ton of utility. Out of S and A ranks, it checks/walls:

Mega Lucario (special sets), Aegislash (all sets), Deo-S, Manaphy, Garchomp (Mega), Thundurus, Terrakion, Rotom-W, Latios, Latias, Greninja, Excadrill, Gengar, Keldeo, Azumarill, Landorus-T, Tyranitar (Mega), Dragonite, Gyarados (Mega), and Politoed.

And outside of a few MEvos, it's not easy to shut it down either, thanks to access to Knock Off and great coverage options. B or B- is where Tangrwoth should be, for its superb walling abilities as well as longevity and generaly utility. The only thing really holding it back is that it gives free switch-ins to some of the most dangerous MEvos, namely Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Venusaur.

Finally, the next person that mentions blacklisting something will get his post deleted and possibly an infraction.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Yeah Tangrowth's AV set is monstrous and has a ton of utility. Out of S and A ranks, it checks/walls:

Mega Lucario (special sets), Aegislash (all sets), Deo-S, Manaphy, Garchomp (Mega), Thundurus, Terrakion, Rotom-W, Latios, Latias, Greninja, Excadrill, Gengar, Keldeo, Azumarill, Landorus-T, Tyranitar (Mega), Dragonite, Gyarados (Mega), and Politoed.

And outside of a few MEvos, it's not easy to shut it down either, thanks to access to Knock Off and great coverage options. B or B- is where Tangrwoth should be, for its superb walling abilities as well as longevity and generaly utility. The only thing really holding it back is that it gives free switch-ins to some of the most dangerous MEvos, namely Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Venusaur.

Says a lot about Tangrowth...it's almost as if Assault Vest was made for it and Conkeldurr...
When the Mega Evolutions are mostly what forces it out, it says something about how it can function against most normal Pokemon, which is still great. I'd like to see Tangrowth higher, but that's just me.

Finally, the next person that mentions blacklisting something will get his post deleted and possibly an infraction.

Thanks for the heads up. I hope everyone reads this. Also, would it be a bad idea to update the main post to make sure that this gets across?

 

[CrymsonEchidna]

It doesn't need to be blacklisted anymore. Its no longer eligible for the list because its not getting an OU analysis.

Cross my nomination then.

 

[Deluks917]

I often go though the teams of the top20 payers in OU/suspect. I have done this twice in OU and once in suspect. I have seen a single politoed in the top20 (about a month back in OU).

I have been laddering on suspect and seen zero politoed (as well as none in replays). Does politoed really deserve A-? As far as I can tell it is having zero success on the ladder. Maybe politoed in A- is based on something else?

Also I think mega-Aggron should be on the list. Probably somewhere in B. People commonly use it reasonably successfully in OU. I think its definitely viable.