If there was more HP, it would be a good poison and water Wobbuffet. Only this time, it can attack directly.
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Mareanie, Toxapex Discussion
- Thread starter Nexus
- Start date
Salazzle won't be any sort of a problem to it, not that it was in the first place, considering that it's part fire.
Just when you thought it was safe to get back in the water.
Slow DEFENSIVE Pokemon. And it gets Regenerator, though Merciless seems a bit odd on it though it can activate it rather easily.
Utilities first, be it from Toxic, Toxic Spikes, or Baneful Bunker you are going to be poisoned. And either from Wide Guard, Recover, Venom Drench, Protect, Light Scren, Safeguard, Double Team, and/or Substitute you will be stalled. But Merciless is a niche option so let's look at attacks. Has its option of STABs (can go either Physical or Special, doesn't really matter) as well as Ice Beam/Blizzard, Smack Down, Payback, and Frost Breath (which Merciless doesn't help since it always a Critical Hit). Egg Moves are Stockpile/Swallow/Spit Up and Haze.
Geez, you may just need a dedicated Pokemon to take out this thing, something with Heal Block and immune to Poison like the Bronzor family (bonus for being Psychic-type).
Slow DEFENSIVE Pokemon. And it gets Regenerator, though Merciless seems a bit odd on it though it can activate it rather easily.
Utilities first, be it from Toxic, Toxic Spikes, or Baneful Bunker you are going to be poisoned. And either from Wide Guard, Recover, Venom Drench, Protect, Light Scren, Safeguard, Double Team, and/or Substitute you will be stalled. But Merciless is a niche option so let's look at attacks. Has its option of STABs (can go either Physical or Special, doesn't really matter) as well as Ice Beam/Blizzard, Smack Down, Payback, and Frost Breath (which Merciless doesn't help since it always a Critical Hit). Egg Moves are Stockpile/Swallow/Spit Up and Haze.
Geez, you may just need a dedicated Pokemon to take out this thing, something with Heal Block and immune to Poison like the Bronzor family (bonus for being Psychic-type).
Nah, There's EQ on every team so this thing wont need a dedicated slot
This thing checks Mega Mawile and almost counter Adamant Life Orb mega blaziken though.
Pair it with Tapu Bulu. Grassy Terrain. Enjoy neutral EQ.
There is EQ to pressure it, but are you really gonna switch your Excadrill / Landorus-T / Garchomp into Scald?
Moreover : 252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 180 Def Tentacruel: 206-246 (67.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery. He is that tanky (well you aren't staying but with Regenerator, some damage are alleviated). Not going to say you need something dedicated, but you do need to adapt your set to this. Either by running Sub (he fails to break Chomp's sub) or something else, but his bulk + Scald + Regenator means that physical attacker will have an hard time to pressure it.
Fortunately:
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Tentacruel: 315-374 (103.6 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 176 Def Tentacruel: 315-374 (103.6 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO (actually Tapu Lele)
There is always the nuke option.
Moreover : 252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 180 Def Tentacruel: 206-246 (67.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery. He is that tanky (well you aren't staying but with Regenerator, some damage are alleviated). Not going to say you need something dedicated, but you do need to adapt your set to this. Either by running Sub (he fails to break Chomp's sub) or something else, but his bulk + Scald + Regenator means that physical attacker will have an hard time to pressure it.
Fortunately:
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Tentacruel: 315-374 (103.6 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 176 Def Tentacruel: 315-374 (103.6 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO (actually Tapu Lele)
There is always the nuke option.
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Why are you using Tentacruel?
I used Tentacruel with Toxapex stats. Same typing and I'm lazy.
Stall got new friend :)
They cover each other really well actually. Bulu resists Ground, gives Grassy Terrain (so less EQ damage AND more recovery for Toxapex, meaning you can feasibly run Rocky Helmet over Leftovers to get important chip damage on attackers), resists Electric, gives a handy Dragon immunity against things like Garchomp which likely freely switch in on you. Meanwhile, Toxapex covers the Fire, Ice, Steel, and Poison weaknesses of Bulu. The Flying/Psychic weaknesses aren't covered, but you have 4 other slots for that too.
It's a decent starting point for an OU core.
What can Toxapex do if the opponent just sets up a Substitute and starts to boost? Sure, you can Haze, but you'll get worn down sooner or later and switching out for Regenerator means you give opponent a free turn of setup behind a Substitute. I hope I'm wrong but it just looks like Substitute sweepers wreck it.
That's true for....well, most defensive things that don't have Unaware. Which is why you have something with Taunt/an appropriate counter to the booster you're worried about.
Any sweeper can end your team if they get one turn with Toxapex, though. It's impossible to have counters for all of them, and the thing that makes Toxapex worse than a lot of other bulky defensive mons is that its offenses are so poor that it can't even break Substitutes. I really want to like this thing but I think it may turn out to be a liability in an offensive metagame.
What sweepers commonly run Sub that beat you? SubCM Keldeo isn't getting past you if you run Haze, Sub Mega Heracross is walled to hell and back (since they don't run Sub SD which is bad). SubCM Raikou beats you (but you can just run....a ground type). SubSeed Serperior beats you but Heatran/a ton of checks/counters. Vincune can't do jack to you.
Off the top of my head, DD Gyarados and CM Magic Guard Clefable will give this hell. DD CharX and M-Sableye don't usually run Sub but will still wreck Toxapex while boosting.
But my point is it doesn't have to be something that runs Sub now. If you have access to Sub + a boosting move, you will be able to set up on Toxapex this gen.
But my point is it doesn't have to be something that runs Sub now. If you have access to Sub + a boosting move, you will be able to set up on Toxapex this gen.
What does non-mega Gyara do to you? You Haze and can Recover up with ease, Bounce and Waterfall don't do anything to you.
CM Magic Guard Clefable can't touch you without Thunderbolt and they most often run Flamethrower.
Charizard X beats you, but you can Toxic it and switch to Hippo or something.
CM Mega Sableye isn't a thing anymore, and Haze still neuters it.
+1 252+ Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 118-141 (38.8 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery (plus, Baneful Bunker completely counters that move)
+4 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 108-127 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (additional Black Slugde recovery via Baneful Bunker makes a guaranteed 3HKO instead of a 2HKO)
I fail to see your point (btw, a made a lot of calcs, and a simple max HP / max Def+ / 4 SpDef with Black Sludge would be, imo, the optimal spread as it counters all the physical threats it needs to counter, while still handling mixed and specially based threats really well).
As for M-Sab, just switch out to a teammate. A defensive mon isn't supposed to take on the world by itself. If it was, I'd play a single Toxapex on my team and win every single time.
In another words, maybe Toxapex can't really hurt certain mons, but in most cases, these mons won't be able to hurt it back either.
A lot of M-Char X run EQ, no? At least they used to, for Heatran & co. And Clefable can run Psychic IIRC if Toxapex ever gets annoying. Points taken, though.
Some unresolved build questions.
If you run Regenerator: Black Sludge or Rocky Helmet?
Toxic + Baneful Bunker on the same set? Would Protect be better?
Scald or Liquidate?
Every single set will run Recover, I imagine.
Toxic Spikes is nice but I don't think you'd run it alongside Toxic. Maybe I'm wrong.
PP count of move selection will be important for stall wars.
Some unresolved build questions.
If you run Regenerator: Black Sludge or Rocky Helmet?
Toxic + Baneful Bunker on the same set? Would Protect be better?
Scald or Liquidate?
Every single set will run Recover, I imagine.
Toxic Spikes is nice but I don't think you'd run it alongside Toxic. Maybe I'm wrong.
PP count of move selection will be important for stall wars.
Scald / recover / haze / baneful bunker or toxic w/ black sludge should be the most common set.
Btw your freaking out about substitute sweepers too much. No mon that can't beat toxapex without a sun can beat it with one as long as toxapex has haze - the pp is really damn good. Not only that, its only one mon, its not going to check the whole metagame flawlessly.
So Toxic and Baneful Bunker on the same set will be tough, huh...
I think if you're not running Baneful Bunker, serious consideration should be given to Rocky Helmet over Black Sludge.
And if you run Toxic, won't Liquidate prove better than Scald against bulky mons? It runs off the better offensive stat and can actually wear them down if they stay in, unlike Scald (burn nerf and all that).
I think if you're not running Baneful Bunker, serious consideration should be given to Rocky Helmet over Black Sludge.
And if you run Toxic, won't Liquidate prove better than Scald against bulky mons? It runs off the better offensive stat and can actually wear them down if they stay in, unlike Scald (burn nerf and all that).
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scald's more important function is to half attack and cripple a mon for the whole game rather than the residual damage - although that certainly plays a role.
Wouldn't get too overhyped about the bulk, that 50 Base HP is deceptively bad. Also, Tapu Lele can come in on it since it will rarely be using attacks and annihilate it with Psychic Terrain boosted STAB Psychics. It also has to watch out for the likes of SDChomp Earthquake. Psychic Terrain is going to make Psychic attacks a lot more common, and Ground get several moves that are threatening. For example, lets say Toxapex switches into a Toxic of a mon with Stomping Tantrum. Toxic will fail, meaning Stomping Tantrum will have 150 BP the next turn. Probably not the most common scenario, but it's there.
Do you know who learn ST ? Mankey family, Cubone family, Golett family, Stufful family and Guzzlord. Pretty sure none of them except Guzzlord would like to run around using Toxic and chances are that Toxapex won't even be able to compete in lower tier where most of them are/will be.
Psychic Terrain won't be the only terrain and Grassy Terrain completely stop Toxapex weakness to EQ (not Earth Power mind you or the new High Horsepower but this new one is only for a select few) ontop of giving it even more regen.
Leaving Toxapex on the field when Tapu Lele comes in is like leaving Chansey when a Mega Heracross comes in : you don't.
It's not so much that 50/152/142 is insanely good so much as it's insanely good on a Pokemon that has Recover and Regenerator. Like holy shit, this thing is never ever going to die.
This thing's bulk is incredibly superior to the Rotom-forms and the Wash form has been a staple in OU since two gen? Yea Toxapex doesnt have volt-switch or one of its weaknesses canceled by Levitate, but it's bulk and access to Recover and Regenerator is just crazy. This thing got a ton of love from GameFreak, it's almost unfair when you compare it to other mons of this generation. Toxapex is a real monster that will fit in many defensive and balanced teams, he's just too good.