np: NU Stage 1 - Welcome to Heartbreak

[ChaoticaMortis]

I used Serperior as a SubSeeder for a while last round to decent effect, but that was with the larger presence of water Pokemon that it could easily set up on. I think Jumpluff is better for SubSeeding this round simply because it's a hell of a lot faster and has Encore to be even more annoying.
Meganium is probably a better supporting Grass-type due to a wider supporting movepool, but its speed is pretty bad. The few things it gets that Serperior doesn't get are really the only things you should ever use it for in my opinion.

 

[Brammi]

Sub Seed serp plays a different role to Meganium. Meganium goes for a stally set designed to cause switches and mess with offensive teams. Serperior on the other hand works as a stall breaker when it runs subseed as leech seed + taunt lets it stall out most walls that lack a strong attack and don't carry a set damage AKA Dtail licky, Alomomola and co.

 

[SharKing]

A hell of a lot faster? Serperior's base Speed is 113, and Jumpluff's is 110. Only in Sun is it a hell of a lot faster.

 

[Brammi]

Serp is fastest non uber sub seeder, trufax

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

My bad, been running sun teams so long I've got all the Chloro-Pokemon's speeds doubled in my head XD

Well, that was my dumbass post for the day.

 

[Smith]

Serp is fastest non uber sub seeder, trufax

Cottonee XD
I typed that as a joke but by the way has anybody tried that out? I could actually see the appeal, his bulk is appropriate for NU and he has an obviously pretty good movepool to work with to his advantage.

 

[jake]

Serp is fastest non uber sub seeder, trufax

Whimsicott is naturally faster, too. :x And no - I honestly prefer the offensive CM and Coil sets for Serperior, but that might just be me.

 

[Smith]

Whimsicott is RU sadly :( Yeah I agree that Serperior is a better offensive Pokemon, there are a lot of really good defensive grass types that can use leech seed + substitute and it's a shame to waste Serperior's unique options.

 

[Steamroll]

Whimsicott is RU sadly :( Yeah I agree that Serperior is a better offensive Pokemon, there are a lot of really good defensive grass types that can use leech seed + substitute and it's a shame to waste Serperior's unique options.

Don't worry we'll get the quick ban on it when Contrary gets released. It's only a matter of time :|

On another note I found Leech Seed / Substitute / Giga Drain / HP Rock to be incredibly trollish. But it still has its shortcomings (it gets the jump on Magmortar and Jynx!) when it comes to Probopass, Lairon and the birds in certain situations. I guess you could switch HP Rock for HP Fighting to check the Rock / Steels since really the only things HP rock is gonna kill is Magmortar + Jynx switchins.

 

[Smith]

Actually I wouldn't change HP Rock for the world, in addition to Jynx and Magmortar you're also hitting the stupid birds, and really anything else willing to switch into serperior. I wouldn't worry too much about rock/steels since you can leech seed stall them out anyway.

 

[gali]

I'm just going to throw this out there: more people need to use Dunsparce. It's really good, and trolls the hell out of pretty much everything in the tier other than Sawk.

 

[tennisace]

I'm just going to throw this out there: more people need to use Dunsparce. It's really good, and trolls the hell out of pretty much everything in the tier other than Sawk.

Too bad Sawk is incredibly common! Also Dunsparse loses to mons with Sub. It's a really mediocre gimmick that's only mildly frustrating if you play like a monkey with bricks for hands.

re: Serperior - In theory it works well, and I always see it and think "oh man this could be pretty cool" but then I try it and its either not bulky enough or not powerful enough or not fast enough to do what I want it to do. SubCM is really hit or miss, with LO it dies fast and with Leftovers it dies slow.

Also another mon that doesn't get enough attention is Haunter. A lot of people are running Misdreavus to beat the big physical threats (Sawk, Pinsir, Golem, etc), but SubSplit Haunter is REALLY effective. Sub allows you to do cool things like beat Absol with prediction (something Missy can't really do) and Cacturne and other mons that sometimes cause problems. With a Life Orb its pretty powerful and does surprising damage to a lot of things. Sludge Bomb is the best coverage move since you can actually stall out stuff like Probopass with Pain Split.

Edit: Sub Kadabra can't heal itself and gets easily revenge killed by Scarf Sawk on account of its piss-poor "bulk". It also has fewer opportunities to switch in because it doesn't have those nice Fighting and Ground-type immunities.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

I don't know how relevant this is, but most of what you just said about Sub Haunter is also true about Sub Kadabra, and it gets LO with Magic Guard...although it's hard to find a spot for Kadabra with all the other great Psychic types in NU right now.

 

[Molk]

ive been testing regigigas, and its been doing pretty well, with the hits being softer than ever, and pokemon slower than ever, it isnt hard for regi to stall out those 5 turns and spread status, its bulk is near equal to cresselia, so with Max Hp weaker hits shouldnt break its sub, and the heavy hitters are crippled by thunder wave. i tested it and peaked at like 1340. its really a decent NU mon

 

[RitterCat]

Yeah if you get behind a Sub on a slower mon it could be deadly. Thunder Wave screws up the stuff that can break your Sub and is faster and lets you get up the Sub the next turn. However, though the final power is nice, other mons are better for the immediate power and if it switches in on status it's fucked
But yeah it's viable I suppose

 

[Axa]

I don't know how relevant this is, but most of what you just said about Sub Haunter is also true about Sub Kadabra, and it gets LO with Magic Guard...although it's hard to find a spot for Kadabra with all the other great Psychic types in NU right now.

On the other hand, Haunter has three immunities to abuse and SE STABs against the Psychics and Grasses running around. Kadabra dies from a light breeze, and while it hits hard, Jynx fills the gap arguably better.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

On the other hand, Haunter has three immunities to abuse and SE STABs against the Psychics and Grasses running around. Kadabra dies from a light breeze, and while it hits hard, Jynx fills the gap arguably better.

Like I said, I know Kadabra has a lot of competition from the other Psychic Pokemon down here. I'll agree that in the current metagame Jynx is probably more useful with its Ice STAB, but that also makes it weak to Stealth Rock, something that Kadabra doesn't have to worry about.
Haunter also has a few solid reasons to be used over Kadabra, but Kadabra hits harder and faster. It's actually kind of interesting to me to compare the both of them as they've got many similarities that I hadn't noticed yet. Neither of them fear Toxic, both are immune to entry hazard damage (Haunter actually does get hit by SR though), both can force a lot of switches, and both take hits like a wet paper bag. There's probably even more that I didn't notice. When picking between the two it's basically a decision between better immunities and coverage against more power and speed.

 

[Smith]

Regigigas is actually a really scary 'mon, with 110/110/110 defenses he doesn't die easily. His only issue is that ghosts, steel/rocks etc. can just kind of laugh at him all day long, even if you waste 5 turns trying to set up. You also have to realize that anything with a boosting move will just ruin him anyway, especially Bastiodon. He's pretty situational, but I guess with proper support you could make him work. I'd rather abuse his defenses than his 160 base attack and just run a support set with Thunder Wave, Knock Off, etc.

 

[Cinccino]

I tried bulky Serperior with Sub, Glare, Giga Drain, and DTail with hazards support and it literally is the best NU troll.

 

[Molk]

Regigigas is actually a really scary 'mon, with 110/110/110 defenses he doesn't die easily. His only issue is that ghosts, steel/rocks etc. can just kind of laugh at him all day long, even if you waste 5 turns trying to set up. You also have to realize that anything with a boosting move will just ruin him anyway, especially Bastiodon. He's pretty situational, but I guess with proper support you could make him work. I'd rather abuse his defenses than his 160 base attack and just run a support set with Thunder Wave, Knock Off, etc.

regigigas is hard walled by misdreavus, and haunter, but it can hit steels/rocks with EQ or drain punch, making them obselete

 

[Ice-eyes]

Hey, everyone, how about we have some meaningful discussion!

What does the standard / optimum stall team look like in today's metagame? What does the typical stall team have to use, where are you going to get your hazards, and how can stall adapt to big, scary BAMFs like Magmortar and Absol? Thoughts?

 

[gamer40000]

Hey, everyone, how about we have some meaningful discussion!

What does the standard / optimum stall team look like in today's metagame? What does the typical stall team have to use, where are you going to get your hazards, and how can stall adapt to big, scary BAMFs like Magmortar and Absol? Thoughts?

Max/Max+ Evolite Shelgon walks all over the physical attackers of the tier, and the only one that can beat it is CB Absol if Shelgon switches in. Try Wish/Protect/Dragon Claw/Toxic if you have trouble with them.

 

[NatGeo]

Honestly, I just got done with a discussion with PDC about the stall team he's using on the ladder, and Quagsire is looking like it can take on both Magmortar and Absol at one time if it uses a Physically Defensive set (considering that not that many Magmortar really run HP Grass nowadays). Physically Defensive Quagsire beats any Absol 1 on 1 (bar crits), which is a big plus. Again, though, crits from absol can really screw up any team.

Also, Misdreavus! Not only is it a fantastic spinblocker with a lot of longevity, it can actually attack if you decide to use it offensively with SubCM. Missy has amazing special bulk, and if you run WoW most physical attackers can't touch you. Only exception could possibly be Swellow, which does ~70% with Brave Bird. But hey, that's what Regirock is for!

 

[Ice-eyes]

I still run HP Grass on Magmortar! Gotta keep that Quagsire at bay! Hate that thing so much. But yeah, I ran into PDC's stall team earlier and beat him with an Absol crit. :S

I actually think Magmortar is fairly easy to deal with as long as you're careful and make sure you get your hazards into play quickly - not just SR but also Toxic Spikes. T-Spikes are one of the major perks of using Garbodor over something like Cacturne, and it's also much better as a Spiker because of its ability to set up on so many things. I find myself playing so carefully when I see it and it still ends up setting up layers.

Quagsire is cool for dealing with Absol in the sense that you don't have to play so carefully around Absol; it's much less likely to SD with a Quag knocking around, and there's less threat of the second SD that might completely clean you up. On the other hand, another good way to take care of Absol is Throh. Unlike Quagsire, it fulfils other roles for its team, phazing with Circle Throw and providing genuine offensive threat. Stall is a lot more dangerous if the opponent has to worry about keeping certain things healthy instead of just being intent on breaking through - the more they're on the back foot and the more carefully they have to play, the fewer opportunities they have to test your defences before their team collapses. With Wish and cleric support, Throh is seriously dangerous and it seems to me like the missing ingredient that stall has been looking for.

 

[NatGeo]

Yeah, I was just thinking about Throh anyways! I guess the problem with Throh though when it comes to dealing with Absol is that it will still hurt since it gets boosts up on you, moreso if someone is running a Sub + SD variant of Absol, since then you can't phaze it as well, if at all. But you're right, Throh is a really good phazer and if you can get a Bulk Up boost in, you're not really getting KO'd by anything not named a Flying-type. Regarding Wish support, Lickilicky is definitely one of the best in the tier without a doubt. Yes, Alomomola has a bigger Wish, but it's also complete setup bait most of the time. Lickilicky also acts a phazer with Dragon Tail, which is a big plus!