np: NU Stage 1 - Welcome to Heartbreak

[Ice-eyes]

I don't really think Lickilicky has space to run Dragon Tail; you're looking more at Wish / Protect / Heal Bell / Body Slam. Throh does really need Wish support but, bearing in mind that a +0 Superpower from Sub Absol only does 36.9% - 43.7%, you have a bit more breathing space on that front than against an LO variant.

I agree with you about Alomomola; stall can sort of afford to have things set up on it a bit better than more balanced teams can, but it's still a bit of a liability and there are other mons that fill a wider number of roles at once.

How necessary is a spinblocker for stall, do we think?

 

[Steamroll]

Pretty much every stall team I've witnessed and encountered has had something to stop the birds, something to wall Scarf Sawk (mesprit / missy), something to halt Gorebyss (Jynx) a (or multiple) hazard setter(s) and cryogonal to spin away the opponents hazards.

In terms of stopping Swellow, Braviary and Fearow I've seen pretty much every steel and rock type plus the hybrids in order to fulfill this role on the team. Regirock, Probo, Lairon, Golem and Omastar all have the ability to easily set up Stealth Rock after walling each bird and a plus in Omastar's case is he can also lay spikes, too. The more roles you can perform with each mon the better.

Scarf Sawk is a pretty interesting case because he can easily tear through the aforementioned rocks with a simple Close Combat, and being able to wall both Swellow and Sawk takes some good prediction to avoid double switches and such. The added disadvantage is that Swellow can easily U-turn to predict Regirock coming in and bam you're facing Sawk while Regirock took damage from U-turn. Interesting options in order to make this pinch hurt as little as possible are Mesprit (who can rock for you if you'd like, or set up screens, a whole multitude of crap), Misdreavus (who with an Eviolite is one of the bulkiest mons in the tier and can kindly perish trap or sleep something in order to releave stress from Swellow Sawk Cores) and finally Tangela, who has a really fitting niche because with an eviolite and maximum investment in HP and Defense fails to be 3hko'd by Swellow's Brave Bird AFTER ROCKS. Tangela can sleep powder, toxic and physically stall out everything with physical attacks that isn't boosted to insane levels (I mean even absol has trouble with him).

Gorebyss is an interesting case because it's one of the few special sweepers in the tier, she really only shares this with SubNP Jynx and Specs Exeggutor, who really is just there to systematically rape anything that switches in with leaf storm and then leave in hysterical laughter. There are quite a few special walls to note to take care of all three mons (or atleast two of them handily). Cryogonal, Mantine, Jynx, Quagsire and Lapras all can safely take on Gorebyss depending on the hidden power she runs (Grass or Rock). If Grass, everyone but Quag and Lapras can handle her while if she runs HP rock Lapras and Quag can both handily Stall her out (note: Quaggy has been dropping in usage lately so its effectiveness is kind of questionable). Exeggutor is really there to just Leaf Storm the fuck out of things but he does pack coverage moves in order to check his weaknesses, that doesn't exactly mean he's perfect though. Cacturne can easily switch in on Leaf Storm or Psychic and proceed to scare him out and set up sub and spike for you. Skuntank can also switch in on psychics and trap eggy with pursuit. Zwelious resists all three of Eggy's moves but is a bit too offensive for a stall team. Altaria is also a nice option against eggy, only fearing psychic, and she can perform well as a cleric and general wall with her respectable 75/90/105 defenses and access to Cotton Guard (Bulky late-game sweeper potential). Articuno, Arbok, Drifblim, Rotom-S and Wormadam-Trash can all switch in on a variety of Eggy's moves and threaten it back with their respective attacks.

Garbador, Whirlipede and a few other previously mentioned mons can all set up spikes, t-spikes and stealth rock in order to help you wear down your opponents team. In league with stalling via hazards it would be good to pack a spin blocker or an effective way to deal with a spinner (Cryo mainly but Wartortle and Starmie have popped up lately). Misdreavus does this job easily and can support the team by perish trapping or paralyzing any threats to the rest of the team and more importantly, keeping hazards up. You don't really have to worry about spinners because of the evident lack of them (if omastar got rapid spin I'd jump on it in a heartbeat), but it's always a good idea to prepare for anyone running a balanced team. I guess it's your call, though.

 

[NatGeo]

Just saying, Omastar is RU :P Still a great post, steamroll!

That said, when all is said and done I think the metagame is pretty balanced, since there are multiple reliable checks for just about everything - the aforementioned Scarf Sawk has trouble with Mesprit, and any switch to a bird can just as easily result in a double switch to a Rock-type, and so on and so forth. Hazards are definitely a big thing to keep track of whenever you're battling, considering they can often make or break some Pokemon, like Rotom-S, Jynx, and Swellow.

Regarding options against physical sweepers like Absol and Sawk, Misdreavus is definitely the way to go against Fighting-types, as she can Will-o-Wisp whatever the hell she wants to if she's up against a Sawk locked into even Payback, so long as Will-o-Wisp is successful. Absol on the other hand is a completely different animal, and you have to keep in mind that a critical hit can ruin your day very easily. Absol has excellent coverage between Dark and Fighting, and honestly not many of the physical walls in the tier can really handle it, so you can effectively put both stall and offensive teams in checkmate if you let it run loose. That said, Quagsire is one of your best bets, since it has a good chance of taking it out in two hits. Throh is also interesting against LO variants, since you can just phaze out their boosts for an OHKO, but Superpower is going to hurt a bit at +2. Sub variants are tough to face as well. Basically, if you're playing stall, your best bet against Absol is to just get your hazards up, and keep them up, so Absol's stay on the field is shortened by as much as possible. Regarding other physical setup sweepers - Carracosta and Throh among others - Quagsire is your best bet to ignore their boosts, though HP Grass Carracosta 2HKOes all variants of Quagsire after Stealth Rock, which can pose a problem, though admittedly HP Grass is still fairly uncommon!

 

[The Wolf]

I'd like to add that Weezing can also stop Absol as it can withstand an Adamant +2 Night Slash. Weezing can use WilloWisp to burn Absol and render it harmless, which makes stall playstyle a tad easier for the player. Weezing has a decent recovery move in Pain Split which is very helpful for a stall player as recovery is crucial. I'd also bring up that even if Absol carries Psycho Cut, which is rare, it only manages a 3-4hko on Weezing without a Sword Dance. Weezing is certainly a Pokemon to be considered when constructing a viable stall team.

 

[Steamroll]

Yeah I was in the middle of a major brain dump and I put Omastar over Carracosta (however that is spelt) and my mind just went with it with the spikes and all. Anyways, Absol is definitely one of the most threatening mons in the meta at the moment. There are only three mons that resist it and two of them aren't allowed in NU while the other isn't going to be walling anything any time soon. This pretty much puts you in a pinch once team preview pops up. There is nothing in NU that can reliably counter him. The Sub+SD set is especially deadly because the only way you are going to kill Absol is by wearing it out from LO damage (or by outspeeding with a priority attack to negate sucker punch). Absol is most commonly taken down from wear due to Life Orb and a strong attack (like aforementioned priority moves) that he ofcourse cannot take even at 100% health. Hazards and mons that can take neutral hits well (Tangela, Leafeon, Weezing, Evio Metang) will definitely help wearing out absol over time. The sad thing is once absol sets up, under normal circumstances, you're going to lose at least one pokemon. There is nothing really wrong with that because Gorebyss used to do the same thing (but we're prepared now) and so can RP torterra. RP Torterra is pretty much in the same boat as Absol, wrecks teams until Life Orb recoil kills them.

 

[Axa]

You know, I have no idea why Quagsire is still NU. It's such a defensive beast. Is Gastrodon so great that people don't use Quaggy?

 

[Steamroll]

hehehe check my no counters part on absol:

[20:51:19] <%DTC> also there is something that reliably counters Absol
[20:51:24] <%DTC> Gurdurr
[20:51:24] <+steamroll> what?
[20:51:26] <+steamroll> lol
[20:51:36] <+steamroll> you mean 100% of the time?
[20:51:39] <%DTC> yes
[20:51:52] <+steamroll> and doesn't absol still outspeed with sucker punch?
[20:51:53] <%DTC> cb psycho cut barely breaks 50%
[20:52:05] <%DTC> and gurdurr has mach punch anyways
[20:52:12] <destinyunknown> Throh
[20:52:13] <+steamroll> yeah
[20:52:17] <+steamroll> damn
[20:52:20] <%DTC> Most Fighting-types beat Absol
[20:52:23] <%DTC> pretty well
[20:52:29] <@NatGeo> eh
[20:52:34] <@NatGeo> crit sucker punch
[20:52:38] <@NatGeo> will KO sawk
[20:52:44] <@NatGeo> assuming sturdy is broken
[20:52:49] <%DTC> lo superpower + sucker punch will kill Sawk
[20:53:01] <@NatGeo> yeah even night slash + sucker punch
[20:53:09] <+ILoveLiza> You know what can beat absol
[20:53:10] <@NatGeo> +2 absol is just scary
[20:53:14] <+ILoveLiza> Sub SD Sweeper ninjask
[20:53:15] <@NatGeo> quagsire!
[20:53:20] <@NatGeo> rofl
[20:53:25] <@NatGeo> do people USE that?
[20:53:28] <+ILoveLiza> no
[20:53:30] <+steamroll> nope

Personally I think evio Gurrdurr needs more usage if it can wall Absol like that. Bringing in calc's in a bit to really prove what DTC is saying.

sometimes getting proven wrong is the best thing that can happen to you...

Edit: CALCS ARE IN!!!

252 atk adamant Absol (0) night slash vs. 252 HP/4 Def Evio Bulk Up derp (0): 18.1% - 21.4%
252 atk adamant Absol (0) Psycho vs. 252 HP/4 Def Evio Bulk Up derp (0): 24.2% - 28.6%
252 atk adamant Absol (0) ns vs. 252 HP/4 Def Evio Bulk Up derp (1): 13.5% - 15.9%
252 atk adamant Absol (0) Psycho vs. 252 HP/4 Def Evio Bulk Up derp (1): 18.4% - 21.7%
252 atk adamant Absol (2) ns vs. 252 HP/4 Def Evio Bulk Up derp (0): 36% - 42.3%
252 atk adamant Absol (2) Psycho vs. 252 HP/4 Def Evio Bulk Up derp (0): 48.1% - 56.6%
252 atk adamant Absol (2) ns vs. 252 HP/4 Def Evio Bulk Up derp (1): 26.6% - 31.6%
252 atk adamant Absol (2) Psycho vs. 252 HP/4 Def Evio Bulk Up derp (1): 36.3% - 42.9%

and on the other end:

BU derp vs. Absol: 28.8% - 33.9%
BU derp (1) vs. Absol: 42.1% - 49.4%
BU derp (2) vs. Absol: 56.1% - 66.4%

yeah it doesn't look like Gurrdurp is the greatest mon for the job. it can break absol's subs and disable

 

[Endorfins]

Another method I've used to "counter" Absol is with Encore. Most of the time Absol is either going to setup or Sucker Punch, if you can get in say Jumpluff in safely, then you can go to town with Encore which either forces Absol to keep boosting or subbing, or it can stall out Sucker punch PP.
Of choose if Absol chooses to night slash, Jumpluff is screwed.

 

[DTC]

Gurdurr is not the only counter to Absol; Tangela is an effective Absol counter.

How much damage Absol does to Tangela: 252 Atk Adamant Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Tangela: 24.55% - 29.04%

How much damage Tangela does back to Absol: 4 SpAtk Bold Tangela Giga Drain vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Absol: 45.22% - 53.31%

Not to mention it has a really useful ability in Regenerator and has the ability to counter many physical NU threats. Let's look at some other physical NU powerhouses:

252 Atk Jolly Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Bold Tangela: 37.72% - 44.31%

252 Atk Jolly (Poisoned) Swellow Brave Bird vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Tangela: 58.38% - 69.16%

252 +2 Atk Adamant Fraxure Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Tangela: 52.4% - 61.98%

252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Emboar Flare Blitz vs 252 HP/252 Def Bold Eviolite Tangela: 80.84% - 96.11% (Tangela can't do anything back if it has already slept something, but the fact that Emboar can't even OHKO it is really surprising.)

See that? Tangela's physical bulk is just amazing, and Regenerator allows it to heal 33% every time it switches out making it that much harder to beat. Leech Seed / Sleep Powder / Giga Drain / Hidden Power Ice/Knock Off is the most effective set I've found.

I'd also like to bring up another Pokemon: Omanyte. It's a pretty effective Pokemon, and it can usually get a few layers of hazards up in a match. It's very bulk, like Tangela, but of course not as bulky! However, I've found that Omanyte struggles to set up on a lot of things because they can hit it super effectively or hit it on its weaker side. Not only that, it's set up bait for Substitute Pokemon like Sub Calm Mind Mesprit. But, you should still try Omanyte when you have the chance! It's one of the only Pokemon in NU with both Spikes and Stealth Rock, which is another bonus.

Edit: What, Steamroll? When I calc'd Gurdurr's Mach Punch to Absol, this is what I got:

0 Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Absol: 49.82% - 59.78%

 

[Steamroll]

DTC you forgot that bold nature on Tangela. A bold nature allows Tangela to avoid a 2HKO from Brave Bird while a neutral nature puts Tangela in 2hko range, a big, big difference.

 

[Smith]

To maybe give Ice-eyes' post some structure, I'll post partially for my benefit and partially for the benefit of the discussion, my stall checklist for NU. It's by no means complete, but by completing it I think we can all have the basis for a good stall team in this meta, and maybe start discussing which Pokemon can fill which roles.
(italics means unncessary or optional, but certainly helpful)
-Stealth Rock
-Spikes
-Toxic Spikes
-Spinner
-Bird Counter
-Fighting type counter
-Magmortar counter
-General water resist
-CM Psychic types counter
-Absol counter
-Scarfer
-Dedicated Gorebyss counter
-Cleric

The problem is picking 6 Pokemon that can fill all the roles above, and with such limited selection, especially in the way of hazards. A lot of Pokemon I feel are absolute NU stall necessities for their ability to fill multiple roles, like misdreavus acting as a fighting type counter, psychic counter, cleric AND spin blocker. Feel free to discuss Pokemon you think would be helpful, or include more roles for NU stall SPECIFICALLY- remember, this is just off the top of my head.

 

[Axa]

I feel like a cleric is really important for stall. Toxic Spikes can be extremely detrimental given the lack of good grounded Poison types in the tier, and if you're shuffling with DTail eventually Flame Body will get the best of you from Magmortar.

One thing I might consider in that team is something that can handle Specs Exeggutor. While Tangela+Quagsire handle most things pretty well, Exeggutor rips holes into things every time it switches in. Cacturne is the best pick for the task, especially since it can also Spike.

 

[DTC]

Skuntank could potentially help stall teams a lot, it counters Calm Mind Psychic-types, gets rid of Ghost-types if you need to get a Rapid Spin in, soaks up Toxic Spikes, and has priority in case you need to revenge a powerful threat such as Magmortar and Gorebyss. It also checks Exeggutor well.

Skuntank might have to be adjusted a bit from its standard set to fit stall teams the best, though. It's hard for Skuntank to do all these jobs at once before dying, as just trying to beat CM Mesprit with Thunderbolt/Ice Beam will practically kill you, unless some modifications are made like, let's-say, Choice Band Specially Defensive Skuntank? (I don't know, just a thought.) Either way, it doesn't have any kind of recovery option so it will be worn out pretty quickly.

(Just dropping some calcs here:
252 +1 SpAtk Timid Mesprit Thunderbolt vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Careful Skuntank: 31.71% - 37.56%

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Exeggutor Leaf Storm vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Skuntank: 43.17% - 50.98%

252 +1 SpAtk Mesprit Thunderbolt vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Skuntank: 57.35% - 67.72%

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Exeggutor Leaf Storm vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Skuntank: 78.67% - 92.51%)

 

[Ice-eyes]

SpD Skuntank seems like a fairly not-terrible idea, DTC. My one minor gripe with it would be the fact that it doesn't really fill enough roles to spend a teamslot on considering its lack of longevity, but having a revenge killer is a really nice luxury for stall to have.

As far as the Absol discussion goes, those calcs are missing out Life Orb which seems kind of silly and Gurdurr's Drain Punch OHKOes. I think Throh is kind of a better bet because you can Circle Throw, which lets you keep momentum going rather than just letting your opponent bring in their Specs Exeggutor to batter your team. Weezing is similarly iffy because giving free switch-ins to Magmortar is bad.

I also think Toxic Spikes are a total necessity for stall teams right now, because otherwise it's much more difficult to wear down the likes of Magmortar and especially Jynx.

One thing I'd quite like to plug (partly outside of the overall discussion) is Duosion, which can serve on stallish teams as a threat and check to various CM Psychic-types, but also on basically any team as a status absorber and general switchin to pretty much every wall. It's great having a pivot that you can throw into the path of random Scalds, bring into Regirock and Lickilicky, and threaten. This lets your team better support frailer, more offensive mons that aren't sturdy switchins to much.

 

[Brammi]

Has anyone tried Magcargo as a bird counter? It was all the rage for a while in UU last gen and the purpose here is the same.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Magcargo seems pretty interesting but its main selling point in Gen IV UU was that it could take on both Swellow and Moltres at the same time. Regirock stands up to Magmortar far better than Magcargo, so its role is kind of overshadowed.

 

[Brammi]

Fair enough. There's so much in this tier to try.

I really want to have a legitimate go at stall, not the semi stall with Ramp that went surprisingly well.

 

[Molk]

Magcargo also has access to recover meaning it can switch in more than most of the bird counters atm. Maggy would be pretty cool, if it wasnt for the 4x weakness to water and ground

 

[Raikaria]

Magcargo also has access to recover meaning it can switch in more than most of the bird counters atm. Maggy would be pretty cool, if it wasnt for the 4x weakness to water

Except there are only two real users of Water-type attacks that are used with any frequency, 'Byss and Samuwott.

Although, anything that gives 'Byss a free switch in is not good.

 

[destinyunknown]

I used skuntank before the tier shift as exeggutor check and it was really good at it. The problem is that many people run 252/252 (atk/speed) skuntank, which cannot take hits even if they are resisted. Skuntank has decent deffensive stats and investing on them is a really good idea, is not necessary to use 252 Hp 252 Sdef+ anyways, for example, you can just run the speed evs to outrun modest eggy.

And yeah, Duosion is a really good pokemon in current metagame, as it's probably the best status absorber (ok swellow is good too, but SR weakness suck) and i have swept with it the few stall teams i have faced.

Btw, I talk about it with amarillo last week, how about Klang? It has really good bulk with eviolite (easy to set up) and a decent attack for being NFE. And the abysmal speed doesn't matter when you are getting +2 in 1 turn. Has anyone tested it?

 

[elchupo]

I used skuntank before the tier shift as exeggutor check and it was really good at it. The problem is that many people run 252/252 (atk/speed) skuntank, which cannot take hits even if they are resisted. Skuntank has decent deffensive stats and investing on them is a really good idea, is not necessary to use 252 Hp 252 Sdef+ anyways, for example, you can just run the speed evs to outrun modest eggy.

And yeah, Duosion is a really good pokemon in current metagame, as it's probably the best status absorber (ok swellow is good too, but SR weakness suck) and i have swept with it the few stall teams i have faced.

Btw, I talk about it with amarillo last week, how about Klang? It has really good bulk with eviolite (easy to set up) and a decent attack for being NFE. And the abysmal speed doesn't matter when you are getting +2 in 1 turn. Has anyone tested it?

I tested it very minimally last week. Like you, I thought it had great defensive stats with Eviolite, good attack and the means to abuse them.

I was underwhelmed however. firstly, it lacks that absolutely trollish base 90 speed its big brother had, which was a large part of the latter's success. If you want to out speed Adamant 252spe Scarf Sawk at +2 you have to invest fully in speed, which severely reduces its defensive capabilities. Jolly Scarf Sawk with always outspeed you at +2. That was only one problem I encountered.

Maybe someone with greater battling prowess than I could use him effectively, but Klinklang Jr. he is not.

 

[Axa]

Something that I keep wanting to see succeed is Floatzel. He seems so great on paper, but more often than not he just doesn't seem to have enough power even with CB.

What about Scarf Floatzel, though? With Naive he only needs 96 Speed to outrun literally everything in the tier except Ninjask. Crunch OHKOs Jynx and 2HKOs Exeggutor. Aqua Jet makes him a decent revenger as he outruns Absol and Swellow and Sucker Punch won't work. He can pump unusued EVs into Sp. Atk for Ice Beam which can nail Tangela, or Focus Miss which 2HKOs Lickilicky with Rocks. He's immune to Will-O-Wisp and Surf 2HKOs Weezing.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

Floatzel is a Pokemon that has constantly disappointed me; he's got good stat distribution, a good move pool, and good typing, but fails to actually get anything done with any of it; he simply doesn't have the offensive presence he needs with a scarf set, and he doesn't have the speed he needs with any other set. If you want to use Floatzel then you should be using Swift Swim + LO/CB on a Rain Dance team, because that's the only way you're getting everything Floatzel wants. With that set he can do all the things you just said in your above post (to a better extent, too) while also not sucking ass against the rest of the tier.

 

[Honus]

To maybe give Ice-eyes' post some structure, I'll post partially for my benefit and partially for the benefit of the discussion, my stall checklist for NU. It's by no means complete, but by completing it I think we can all have the basis for a good stall team in this meta, and maybe start discussing which Pokemon can fill which roles.
(italics means unncessary or optional, but certainly helpful)
-Stealth Rock
-Spikes
-Toxic Spikes
-Spinner
-Bird Counter
-Fighting type counter
-Magmortar counter
-General water resist
-CM Psychic types counter
-Absol counter
-Scarfer
-Dedicated Gorebyss counter
-Cleric

The problem is picking 6 Pokemon that can fill all the roles above, and with such limited selection, especially in the way of hazards. A lot of Pokemon I feel are absolute NU stall necessities for their ability to fill multiple roles, like misdreavus acting as a fighting type counter, psychic counter, cleric AND spin blocker. Feel free to discuss Pokemon you think would be helpful, or include more roles for NU stall SPECIFICALLY- remember, this is just off the top of my head.

It's extremely hard to make that checklist with what we have available, but it seems pretty solid. I'd like to argue that a Cleric is needed on stall teams and is more important than some of the roles you listed as not being optional. Status is everywhere and being able to absolve your team members of Toxic is essential in preparing your team to have a good matchup against other stall teams. Oddly enough, I've found Magmortar and Gorebyss to be something that can be played around, although having hard counters to them is obviously great for a stall team, but they can be hard to fit in. Either way, dealing with Magmortar can be simple in that Lickilicky can do around 47% to the standard build with Return and tank a Focus Blast. You can then go to Misdreavus who will be able to withstand whatever Mag throws at it and KO with Shadow Ball, Magmortar can also be caught by stuff like rocks and HP Rock Tangela. Choice Versions of Mag are obviously much easier to handle. Gorebyss on the other hand is just a matter of predicting correctly against it. Most stall teams have a Pokemon that can do something to Gorebyss, whether it be through an attack or just Toxic, and most of the time it comes down to predicting whether it will attack, Sub, or set up. Fighting this prediction battle is even easier if Gory comes in multiple times, as you can mess with your opponent's mind the second time, assuming they attacked the first time and switched out after a Lickilicky or Lapras was put in front of them.

I find that Rapid Spinners and Spikers are probably the hardest Pokemon to fit on stall teams, ironically enough, given the copious amount of major threats you have to check. Cryogonal is an inferior Special wall to Lickilicky and can't hit as hard as Licki does, while Torkoal only checks a few minor threats [although Roar is useful], Tentacruel is good against Gorebyss but isn't anything great overall, while Armaldo is decent, but SR Weak Pokemon really don't have a place on stall teams unless they provide team support that can't be found anywhere else [ex: Restalk Gyara] and have a Spinner to make sure the field is clear of rocks. When the Spinner is the SR weak mon, this can become quite troublesome. Obviously this is NU, but the principles still apply. As for Spikers, you have an even smaller pool to choose from. Cacturne is great in that it has the speed to reliably get up some layers and also the offensive presence to force switches, not to mention the fact that it can smash slow CM Sweepers with Encore and take out Gorebyss and similar frail sweepers with Sucker Punch. Given all of this, Cacturne is probably the best Spiking choice for a stall team, although it isn't a true 'wall' like Spikers in other tiers are. Garbodor is a Pokemon I've had trouble fitting onto my stall teams, which is a shame because not only does it get Spikes, it gets the ever-so-useful Toxic Spikes. I just find that Garbodor doesn't match up well against nearly enough threats and would leave the team weak to a few Pokemon. It's also setup bait for Mesprit and Duosion, two Pokemon that can pose a serious threat to stall teams.

 

[Smith]

(I somehow read that entire post)

I agree that Clerics ought probably be on every stall team, in retrospect. Another thing I think that a stall team really does need is toxic spikes. ASSUMING your opponent doesn't have a grounded poison type, toxic spikes make dealing with threats like Gorebyss, Magmortar, Serperior and really most anything much much easier. It also gives your team a more clear win condition, since you can toxic stall out most anything in this tier. The issue, of course, is how to set up these hazards. Garbodor WOULD be the standard, but as you said, mesprit shits all over him, as does Duosion. An idea I've been theorymonning for a while is to use Focus Sash Ariados, as an almost suicide-lead kind of thing. Thanks to a vicious bug stab and Sucker Punch, not too many set-up sweepers can set up on him easily, and with Insomnia and a 4x resist he's a really good counter to those annoying grass types. He can even handle Jynx, to an extent. Fitting him on a stall team may well be another matter entirely, though =/

As for rapid spinners, besides the ones you mentioned, I've been wondering if Sandshrew is at all valuable. Since every (good) team has a rock or a steel/rock, Sandshrew will always have an opportunity to get in and get a spin off. He can also spin against Garbodor, which is certainly useful as he's one of the most common setters. You can't really touch Cacturne, though, so that's a downside =/