np: NU Stage 1 - Welcome to Heartbreak

[Axa]

Sandshrew is a cool thing, but he's not really that durable and he can't really do that much outside of Spin- he can make hefty dents in the birds and Magmortar with prediction, but has trouble taking unresisted hits- Swellow 2HKOs 252/252 +ve with Facade. Lack of recovery and vulnerable to all hazards (though he resists SR, which is more than can be said for Cryogonal and Torkoal).

That said, even uninvested, STAB EQ hurts, so he probably isn't that bad, and he's at least got an immunity to switch in, albeit an uncommon one outside of Thunder Wave. Wartortle is still viable though since he can at least go for Burn hax and can guarantee a Spin via Foresight.

 

[Lady Shinki]

My issue with Sandshrew is that his best weapon against the spinblockers of the tier is Toxic. Or Night Slash, if we want to run that over a support move like SR, but that still doesn't beat bulky spinblockers. He will never, ever break through Missy and can only beat Haunter if it runs a Dark move (and has to 2hko it by hitting it on the switch, and STILL gets 1hko'ed if it carries a SE move like Giga Drain). To top it all off, most Ghosts have the ability to beat his only real method of damaging them (Haunter is immune to Toxic, Missy can carry Heal Bell, Drifblim can ChestoCM, etc.). Vs. teams that don't spinblock, sure, Sandshrew has nice bulk, stab EQ, and the ability to beat Garbodor easily, but other spinners don't have TOO much trouble vs. him either.

 

[Scoopapa]

IMO Sandshrew should be using Super Fang. Paired with a good scarf or priority user it should be able to prevent itself from giving the enemy a sweep by taking out half of it's health. Sure, it's bad and it loses to Ghosts, but that applies to most spinners of the tier anyway. Wartortle is the only one who can dream of spinning past missy and it has to predict because otherwise Taunt will shut down Foresight. Aside from SR and spin, it should be Fang/EQ or Fang/Toxic I think. I used Sandshrew some and Super Fang was useful.

What I'm actually trying to say is, I really like Regigigas.

@below

I used that on a team with that and five Normal/Flying-types but needless to say it wasn't a very serious team. I had Toxic on there somewhere, though. It did what I needed it to.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Has anyone else had any success with Trapinch as an Arena Trap user? I've tried one briefly on a bird offense team, and it's done pretty good at trapping and revenge killing things that would usually stop birds, like Regirock. It even has a shot at taking on some of those bulky Rock/Steel types at full health. Here's the set I use.

Trapinch@Evolite
Adamant
Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk, 252 Def, 4 HP
Moves:
-Earthquake
-Crunch
-Rock Slide
-Quick Attack

Max Def > Max HP because I'd rather maximize Trapinch's physical defense and sacrifice special defense than compromise physical defense to boost overall defense. After all, most of the things that this set is designed to kill use physical attacks for offense. Earthquake has a shot at 2HKOing 252/0 neutral Regirock, for example. Crunch is kinda nice since I am 2 speed points slower than TR Duosion, so I can outspeed it under TR and KO it if it has taken some previous damage (very likely). Rock Slide is just there because it offers a little something against enemy birds and such, and Quick Attack has its uses in finishing off a weakened Gorebyss or a Sturdy-activated Sawk.

I haven't been able to play many battles with it, which is why I'm throwing this out there for feedback, but it has done good for the few battles I've played.

 

[Smith]

You're right that Sandshrew isn't really that bulky, but I firmly believe he doesn't have to be since Golem, Regirock, Bastiodon etc. really can't do anything in return and everybody has one (or ought to). Of course, you're ALSO right that he can't do well against more dedicated hazards teams, sine he has no way of defeating blockers, but I don't really think any other spinner does any better. Any common spinner in this meta gets worn out by a simple combination of Toxic + Pain Split. If you really want, you could apply some pressure with SD + Night Slash, but that would get kinda gimmicky. I'd also argue, however, that spin blockers aren't terribly common so it shouldn't be too major a concern.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

Ok guys, Sandshrew isn't something anyone needs to be using; Armoldo is a better offensive spinner, Cryo and Wartortle are better defensive spinners. Sandshrew can't do any damage, it loses to anything with Substitute, and gets set up on harder than Wartortle does (and that's saying A LOT). Your opponent isn't going to mind losing their hazards if all their other Pokemon can just get free set-up off Sandshrew. It's like going into a match with 5 against 6 except you have a free "get rid of rocks" card.

 

[Molk]

i just want to say that amoonguss is a BEAST in this metagame, it can clear stat boosts with clear smog, spore is essentially a pokemon down a match, and it has reliable recovery in synthesis, as well as a tspikes immunity and fighting resist. trop and i have been using it, ad its very good at what it does, which is sponge hits for offensive teams and spore key threats. very good "glue" pokemon imo

 

[Smith]

Amoonguss is good but I'm a bigger fan of Vileplume tbh. Spore is nice and all, but fairly predictable, whereas for some reason people don't expect Sleep Powder from Vileplume. I also think that Aromatherapy is absolutely invaluable in this meta, and the increased special attack actually helps quite a bit.

 

[DTC]

I've tried Trapinch before, and it just doesn't trap much. It's so frail, even with Defense EV's and is easily KO'd by a lot of Pokemon; there is a limit to what you can trap with it. Not to mention that most teams have 1 or 2 Flying-types/levitates such as Weezing and Misdreavus. I like Wynaut better, but being immune to Volt Switch can be useful at times.

I'm surprised Tangela isn't be used more. Really, its bulk is astounding, and I've walled more than half of people's teams with Tangela alone. It's a shame Tangela can't do anything to Vital Spirit Magmortar, (The increasingly popular Magmortar - and if you say HP Rock can beat Magmortar, it only 3HKO's it.) but no Pokemon can be perfect. If you haven't tried it out on one of your teams yet, do so!

 

[Honus]

I generally find Vileplume to be more annoying, mainly for the reasons Smith stated, as not all Vileplume carry Sleep Powder and seeing as to how I switched Natu and Probopass in on this thing to take Sleep Powder, I'd say the base 100 pecial Attack helps a lot. Vileplume's ability to absorb the fantastic Toxic Spikes is also extremely useful, although Amoonguss shares this trait too.

Speaking of Toxic Spikes, I've begun to use Tentacool and I must say, it's actually pretty decent. It may be an inferior spinner to Cryogonal, Torkoal and Armaldo and obviously isn't an amazing wall given its low defensive stats and lack of Lefties, but it does have its good points. Tentacool possesses the benefit of not being weak to Stealth Rock and Wish support grants it good staying power. In addition to this, Tentacool is able to both lay and Toxic Spikes, which I consider the most effective hazard in the tier. Finally, Tentacool is able to hold its own against two very popular and powerful Pokemon in Gorebyss and Combusken [as well as a few others], taking advantage of its opportune typing and great special defense.

 

[bean1706]

When I've used it, Tangela has been an astounding physical wall for my team and that regenerator ability helps it a lot! I think it's not used a lot because of how common Magmortar and the birds are in this tier. They tend to put a stop to it by like you said, Magmortar being immune to sleep and having hard hitting super-effective moves. If for some strange reason the aforementioned pokemon move to RU in the next tier changes I can see Tangela becoming a very common sight in NU (but that's not going to happen :P).

 

[MegaKick]

When I've used it, Tangela has been an astounding physical wall for my team and that regenerator ability helps it a lot! I think it's not used a lot because of how common Magmortar and the birds are in this tier. They tend to put a stop to it by like you said, Magmortar being immune to sleep and having hard hitting super-effective moves. If for some strange reason the aforementioned pokemon move to RU in the next tier changes I can see Tangela becoming a very common sight in NU (but that's not going to happen :P).

I've actually seen a lot of tangela running hp:rock to hit stuff like this on the switchin - while it won't KO, it can do a lot of damage with rocks.

Fire spam is pretty fun if you can get rid of quagsire - emboar/rapidash/magmortar/guts flareon/combusken/heatmor are all great pokemon that can rip stuff apart and take advantage of the lack of long lasting water and rock types.

 

[marilli]

Umm, Slowking is RU?

You'll need answers for Quagsire, Altaria (yeah it's rare but you don't want to get boned), bulky Camerupt, Regirock, etc, but yes, Fire spam is quite effective... except that only Fire-type that I've seen around are Magmortar, and those gimmicky Combusken. Rapidash sounds really interesting, though. It's one of those things I've always wanted to try but didn't have time to because I was too busy fooling around with raticate.

 

[erisia]

Rapidash is a pretty good Choice Bander from my experience, since it outspeeds pretty much everything, gets STAB Flare Blitz and can get it boosted further by Flash Fire and Sun support. Dry Baton Pass can also be helpful for Scouting around and being annoying, whilst it also gets coverage options like Wild Charge and Megahorn. It can't be Burned either, obviously, which helps out as a physical attacker considering that most other Fire types in the tier are specially offensive (or better off using special attacks, Camerupt.)

 

[Molk]

i just want to say, imo absol is kinda OP in this tier, it has three hard counters, gurdurr, tangela, and quagsire but be honest, throh and regirock as checks? they are both OHKOed by +2 superpower, i cannot count the amount of absol sweeps ive gotten cause people think things like swords dance leafeon (who is OHKOed by +2 sucker punch) and scarf emboar (koed by superpower+sucker punch on the switch.) are counters to absol. absol was a top UU threat last round after honchkrow's ban, and imo absol is just to much for the NU tier to handle, as most of its old UU checks arent NU.....

list your absol counters here, i bet absol 2hkoes them all after a SD, once absol sets up, SOMETHING on your team is dying. no question, absol has gotten so many kills vs things like missy, swellow, and magmortar without setting up as well.

just a calc for the people who use throh as their absol check

788 Atk vs 207 Def & 444 HP (120 Base Power): 425 - 500 (95.72% - 112.61%)

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

once absol sets up, SOMETHING on your team is dying.

once gorebyss sets up, SOMETHING on your team is dying.

once ursaring sets up, SOMETHING on your team is dying.

once jynx sets up, SOMETHING on your team is dying.

once duosion sets up, SOMETHING on your team is dying.

once torterra sets up, SOMETHING on your team is dying.

sets up

see the problem?

 

[Molk]

gorebyss can be revenge killed, absol is very hard to revenge kill

ursaring is easily revenge killed, as it is still slow after a boost and is on a timer, absol is not

jynx relies on lovely kiss, absol does not

duosion is slow as shit, absol has as least some speed

torterra lacks the raw power with just a rock polish

Absol doesnt have to set up to kill something, most of those pokes do

 

[marilli]

Molk, remember RU council? Honchkrow was also incredibly hard to revenge kill, and had very few safe switch-ins. Yes, the access to superpower on a purely physical set does make Absol a bit different, but unlike Honchie, Absol needs to get the boost, and you need to give it the boost manually through a boosting move. Absol is pretty frail even with Dual Screens, making it hard to get the set up on.

However, the biggest reason why I'm making the Honchie comparison (despite a lot of differences) is Substitute. "Stick a substitute on an offensive mon" was one of the big arguments for not banning Honchie, and it holds true for Absol in NU as well. A lot of good things like Jynx, SD Leafeon, and other things I'm forgetting commonly run Substitute, and you can predict your way around with Substitute. If your offensive team has little way around Absol and its Sucker Punch, please use a substitute user. It's one of the best moves of the game IMO, and there is a wide variety of viable sub users, so Absol users can't prepare for all of them.

And for the above post, really, getting the Absol setup is a lot harder than getting a Duosion or Jynx setup, really. Also Absol does need to set up if you want that power. Only things it can kill without the boost are frail offensive mons. Torterra, Ursaring, and others also have no trouble OHKOing frail mons, either.

 

[Molk]

except, unlike honchkrow, absol usually runs night slash on the purely physical set, which means if said player predicts correctly, absol can bypass substitute with night slash, without taking AS much recoil as honchkrow, i see your point though, but if honchkrow was voted on in RU, i see no reason why a threat so similar cant be voted on in NU, i mean im not saying it should be quickbanned, but its the most powerful poke in the meta imo

 

[Honus]

I've actually seen a lot of tangela running hp:rock to hit stuff like this on the switchin - while it won't KO, it can do a lot of damage with rocks.

Fire spam is pretty fun if you can get rid of quagsire - emboar/rapidash/magmortar/guts flareon/combusken/heatmor are all great pokemon that can rip stuff apart and take advantage of the lack of long lasting water and rock types.

In my experience, HP Ice is the superior move on Tangela, mainly due to the fact that it's probably one of the best counters to Dragons in NU and you really have to deal with them quick, because even Altaria can become fearsome when it sets up. HP Rock is cool for nailing Magmortar on the switch, but there are other ways to beat it with defensive teams, whereas there aren't as many ways to beat Dragons.

Anyways, it seems like many of these threats being mentioned are more threatening to offense as opposed to full stall. For a stall player, Gorebyss loses to prediction and pressure or Tspikes, Ursaring loses to Tangela, Jynx loses to Lickilicky provided something is asleep and Tangela stops Torterra cold. Duosion, however, is an insanely dangerous threat to stall and the standard set is only hard countered by Hypno, Gardevoir and other Psychic Types with taunt. Sure, Absol and Skunktank beat it, but both are hard to fit into full stall and the former fears Hidden Power Fighting. In addition to this, Hypno is generally an inferior Special wall to Lickilicky, so you're essentially compromising what you can wall in general just to beat one threat. Obviously, Duosion can be compared to Reuniclus in OU, who wasn't banned, but Reuniclus has a plethora of Pokemon that beat it, many of which can easily find their way into balanced or stall teams [Scizor, Deoxys-D, Jirachi, CB or Chople Tyranitar, Stallbreak Mew], but we just don't have this luxury when it comes to beating Duosion.

 

[porcelaininja]

I second Karpman's thoughts re Duosion. Once set up, it's really hard to stop esp. if it's the opponent's last pokemon thus unable to phaze. Neutral coverage in Psychic + HP Fighting. Even worse it takes no damage from entry hazards courtesy of MG. Really, there are no hard counters except for strong physical attackers w/c does not really fit on a stall team (or risk losing a slot just to cover this specific threat which leaves you open elsewhere). I actually use Hypno > Lickilicky for these reasons: 1. Sleep immunity is nice courtesy of Insomnia (saved a team slot for a sleep counter + Wish passer in one!) 2. the former resists Focus Blast from Maggy (Fire Blast barely 2HKOs - forgot the calcs someone has posted here) and can stall LO damage w/ Wish + Protect. A simple set of Wish, Protect, Toxic, Psyshock/Seismic Toss is what I use.

I actually find SubDisable Haunter to be a good Absol counter so long as you do not switch him directly (i.e. come in after a kill). Turn 1: use Substitute as your opponent either uses uses a.) Sucker Punch or b.) Night Slash. Turn 2: if opponent goes with A, then obviously attack with HP Fighting for the KO; if B, proceed to use Disable since Haunter is naturally faster --- this leaves Absol helpless and needs to switch since Swords Dance/Superpower is definitely not an option.

My Gorebyss problems continue to arise; I have faced a team w/ Rain Dance Damp rock Mesprit. Mesprit U-Turns to Gore, I switch my Scarfer on the Smash, and be surprised to get KO'd by one of its coverage moves. Scarf Haunter/Rotom-S is outsped under rain +2. Thus, the argument of revenge killing Gore does not apply here. Any thoughts regrading how to counter this? Note: This is assuming Mesprit is used as a Rain Dance lead hence no sane player will want to put his TSpiker on the lead position.
gl
gl

 

[breh]

duosion is really easy to get rid of with skuntank, which is reasonably bulky enough to use on stall.

 

[Endorfins]

except, unlike honchkrow, absol usually runs night slash on the purely physical set, which means if said player predicts correctly, absol can bypass substitute with night slash, without taking AS much recoil as honchkrow, i see your point though, but if honchkrow was voted on in RU, i see no reason why a threat so similar cant be voted on in NU, i mean im not saying it should be quickbanned, but its the most powerful poke in the meta imo

Despite Molk often hyping up threats in the tier, I definitely agree with him on this one. People have often used the 'Substitute' prediction argument to deal with Absol. Unfortunately for them, the SubSD Absol set is also quite common and can Sub up as you Sub up, then proceed to end up at the same place as before. Prediction works both ways and if the Absol user predicts well, then Substitute is not a reliable way to deal with Absol.
Of course Absol does have its checks and counters but what I have found to be the worst thing about Absol is the way in which it totally shuts down Hyper Offensive teams and its STAB Sucker Punch is one of the reasons why Gorebyss has dropped in usage. Any team that relies on manually setting up weather to abuse Chlorophyll or Swift Swim find themselves at the mercy of Absol's powerful priority move no matter how fast they are.
Hyper Offense is virtually non-existent in the tier and it is really no surprise as to why

 

[bean1706]

I have to agree, Absol is a very threatening pokemon in NU. Once it gets an SD under its belt there's almost no stopping it unless like suggested you predict and go for a sub or have some form of priority such as quick attack on Swellow. From my own experience it becomes a bit of a prediction game though which can be quite frustrating.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

Since this is the NU stage 1 thread, I would like to go ahead and congratulate the best and second best player at the end of stage 1.
Good job with all that owning Ice Eyes.

Regarding Absol (and I know this is far from a great solution), would Linoone be a decent way to counter it? You could bring him in on a predicted Sucker Punch and then hit it with Extreme Speed or something. Of course, this just adds to the fact that you're almost always going to be stuck in a prediction battle against Absol...
Personally I'm sticking with Bulk Up Gurdurr to deal with Absol. Bro's strongth, to say the least, and one of the few Pokemon that can tank more than one attack from Absol.