np: NU Stage 1 - Welcome to Heartbreak

[TROP]

actually, mixed 4 attacks absol is pretty legit, if you invest enough evs for fire blast to OHKO tangela and hp grass to OHKO quagsire, it can imitate mixkrow in the higher tiers

Okay molk you are right on this one because SuperPower+the move to hit Tangela/Quaggy koes both of them,still a silly set.

 

[tennisace]

So the suspect is officially Gorebyss. Discuss.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

While I can:
inb4 shitstorm.

I think much of the good arguing has already been done in this thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3460097&page=2

Brammi argued against Gorebyss and tennisace argued for it somewhat. I'd advise you all to read those posts first before posting in here to avoid redundancy, repetition, and redundancy.

 

[Endorfins]

The metagame was really based around Gorebyss early on, and as a result, people don't use Pokemon that Gorebyss can set up on. Even the Bird counters all pack moves such as Thunder Wave to cripple Gorebyss switch ins, and the metagame has shied away from Choiced Fire and Water type moves and is instead populated by fast Scarfers and Priority users.
With the current metagame, it's really hard to see Gorebyss as ban-worthy

 

[waterwarrior]

I am decidedly neutral on Gorebyss' brokenness. Sure, the meta has revolved around it, making a Gorebyss sweep somewhat easy to prevent, and there really are two reliable counters, Jynx and Lapras (the latter of which I rarely see), and Rotom-S is a reliable check. However, the fact that the meta DOES completely revolve around Gorebyss is definitely a symptom of being a tad OP, like Excadrill and Deo-S (HO) on OU before their bans.
EDIT: @below, I was comparing the three by the fact they all centralized the meta, not their immediate power. I suppose I could've been clearer on that.

Also, I'm going to have to somewhat disagree with happy endorphins, I see Choice Magmortars a lot when I (admittedly sporadically) ladder, and they are rarely shy of using Fire Blast/ Flamethrower.

 

[Endorfins]

Scarf Magortar is no where near as popular as the Life Orb variants, as well as the fact that it can't outspeed max Speed +2 Gorebyss makes it not as appealing as faster scarfers.
The problem with comparing Gorebyss with Excadrill and DeoS is that Gorebyss is not immediately threatening, unlike Excadrill in Sand.

 

[jake]

My thoughts on Gorebyss are strongly represented by this post in particular.

Here are my thoughts on Gorebyss:

With all of the hype that was placed on it, I have been extremely disappointed. We were all waiting with torches and pitchforks, ready to quick ban. Then, people started realizing that while good, Gorebyss wasn't able to absolutely dominate through its numerous checks. Of course, like any dangerous sweeper, if you don't have checks, or your opponent plays well and eliminates your checks to it, it will sweep you. The same can be said of Rock Polish Torterra, or any other Shell Smasher, or Swellow. Gorebyss is the best Shell Smasher by far, and I don't personally like how the metagame has shaped around it. However, thinking Gorebyss is a bad influence on the metagame and Gorebyss being broken are two entirely different things, and at this moment, I do not believe Gorebyss is broken.

In the beginning of this round, Gorebyss' hype was unbelievable. I mean, people were talking about trying things like Lapras, Regice and even Lombre and Marill at some point. "How the fuck will we beat Gorebyss" was a pretty unanswerable question. And we prepared. Hard. Scarf Rotom-S? Check. Jynx? Check. Sucker Punch Absol? Check. We go through and find that, while Gorebyss has no pure 'counters' really, it has a ton of legitimately useful checks - they aren't deadweight, solely for the purpose of revenging Gorebyss. They're generally useful and good Pokemon and I think that goes a long way when we're considering Gorebyss's impact on the metagame.

Maybe it's just me, but Gorebyss has largely been absent insofar as "wrecking teams" as we expected it to. Perhaps everyone overprepared? Or maybe it's just the fact that Gorebyss simply didn't live up to expectations? The point of the matter is, however, that the metagame has adapted to Gorebyss and deals with it well enough that Gorebyss isn't nearly as dominant as it was hyped and expected to be. The key here is that we have found things that check and beat Gorebyss and they aren't useless pieces of shit that die to everything else, or are easily pursuited, or are set-up bait, or anything. Gorebyss has checks including Jynx, Rotom-S, Absol, Lickilicky, Throh, Electabuzz... It seems to me that it's become very difficult for Gorebyss to find an opportunity to set up, whether it's against stall teams or heavily offensive teams or what have you. Gorebyss is an excellent Pokemon in its own right, but while it does require us to use checks and methods of beating it (what a revelation!), that's true of any and all offensive Pokemon.

Teams don't have to totally focus on beating Gorebyss to the point where they become unable to deal with other Pokemon. Gorebyss is a centralizing Pokemon. But centralizing is not broken.

 

[Honus]

Giving Magmortar choice compromises its ability to break stall, in my opinion, not to mention there are a good amount of scarfers that are generally better at revenge killing. Scarf Magmortar requires extra prediction and if you predict wrong [even if you predict right, they go into a Pokemon that can take the attack], then you have to switch out and possibly take SR damage.

Anyways, I'm against bnning Gorebyss, but I'm leading towards not banning it. I mean, as Zebraiken said, the metagame has adapted and I'm not sure if it's just me but whenever Gorebyss switches in, it seems like becomes a battle of whether Gorebyss will attack or set up, which is true with a lot of Pokemon. Most Pokemon can do something to Gorebyss, whether it be Roar, Toxic or attack, so it's really up to the player in the end. Even then, there are a good amount of scarfers who can revenge Gorebyss with ease, and finally, a select few Pokemon like SpDef Lapras and Tentacool [it's not that bad!] can reliably switch in on it and beat it.

 

[Steamroll]

I really don't see the need to ban Gorebyss from NU. Zebraiken summed it up perfectly with the fact that while we prepared for Gorebyss to be almost unstoppable, it has been very overhyped so far. The checks we have used for Gorebyss have not been arbitrary mons or sets devoted solely to shutting her down, which is one big sign in being broken. Those checks are just as threatening as gorebyss is, so they can support the team beyond shutting her down. If you ask me I think Huntail does the job a bit better due to having better physical bulk and Crunch access, allowing him to bypass jynx along with the standard Water/Ice coverage that all four top smashers run.

 

[porcelaininja]

Most Pokemon can do something to Gorebyss, whether it be Roar, Toxic or attack, so it's really up to the player in the end. Even then, there are a good amount of scarfers who can revenge Gorebyss with ease, and finally, a select few Pokemon like SpDef Lapras and Tentacool [it's not that bad!] can reliably switch in on it and beat it.

While I do agree that Gorebyss is far from being completely broken, revenge killing is not true while +2 under rain (case in point: Timid Choice Scarf Rotom-S is outsped). Rain Dance Mesprit is the most common support; nothing in the tier can manage a decent OHKO on the fairy w/o boosts add the fact that Mesprit can re-set up rain multiple times courtesy of its decent bulk and U-Turn). Hydration, albeit a pretty odd choice, nullifies attempts of statusing the pink fish w/c is a severe blow against stall teams.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

While I do agree that Gorebyss is far from being completely broken, revenge killing is not true while +2 under rain (case in point: Timid Choice Scarf Rotom-S is outsped). Rain Dance Mesprit is the most common support; nothing in the tier can manage a decent OHKO on the fairy w/o boosts add the fact that Mesprit can re-set up rain multiple times courtesy of its decent bulk and U-Turn). Hydration, albeit a pretty odd choice, nullifies attempts of statusing the pink fish w/c is a severe blow against stall teams.

Pretty much this; for a while now I've thought that Gorebyss was completely broken, just not being used to its fullest potential. If you're running a good Rain team, Gorebyss is going to roflstomp practically everything. Shell Smash + Swift Swim puts its speed higher than anything in the tier, and at +2 with Life Orb NOTHING is going to take a neutral Hydro Pump. At their bulkiest, Lickilicky is OHKO'd cleanly, Quag is OHKO'd 50% of the time. What's that tell you?

252 +2 SpAtk Life Orb Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Quagsire: 91.37% - 107.61%
50% chance to OHKO
(This does factor in Unaware on Quag of course)

 

[porcelaininja]

Thanks for further elaborating my point, CM ^. You can argue to pack a Water-immune poke to counter LO RainByss such as Jynx/Lapras/Cacturne but what happens when said poke has already fainted? A smart player will have identified solid checks/counters prior to a Gore sweep. Lapras & Cacturne share a Fighting weakness; while Jynx shatters to just about any physical attack no thanks in part to a base 30 Defense stat. As CM previously mentioned, even the premier special wall in the tier, Lickilicky, is cleanly OHKO'd so you have to resort to those aforementioned pokes (as Revenge Killing is OUT of the picture) to even have a chance to halt a RainByss sweep. Any thoughts?

 

[Brammi]

The biggest thing with Gorebyss is that it isn't being used. As soon as people start running its different sets then you won't be able to beat it with the current checks. Those will work for some sets but not for others.

 

[Smith]

Even in the rain (and assuming you can get rain set up AND a shell smash) you're still handily defeated by priority. Even if you run White Herb, then you start missing KOs. It's the same problem as with any other Gorebyss set, no set can beat them all.

 

[D4RR3N]

Even in the rain (and assuming you can get rain set up AND a shell smash) you're still handily defeated by priority. Even if you run White Herb, then you start missing KOs. It's the same problem as with any other Gorebyss set, no set can beat them all.

SubSmash Gorebyss can be used to escape from Sucker Punches, but then, Bulky waters are going to shit all over you. I guess no Gorebyss set can be considered as "best".

 

[Leman]

SubSmash Gorebyss can be used to escape from Sucker Punches, but then, Bulky waters are going to shit all over you. I guess no Gorebyss set can be considered as "best".

Bulky waters are so overtaxed in this tier, trying to wall Gorebyss, Magmortar, Jynx etc and then being the go-to switch in for anything that hits remotely hard (like Braviary or Absol), that at the end of the day they are stupidly easy to wear down, especially considdering that most of them do not have reliable recovery. Secondly those same bulky waters rely on piss weak scalds and hoping for a burn or Toxic to beat Gorebyss, which makes them set-up bait for SubSmash Gorebyss. Substitute also dodges Sucker Punch, which is the most common (read: only) priority in NU.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

Note: These are all calc'd in Rain:

252 +2 SpAtk Life Orb Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Alomomola: 81.46% - 95.69%
2 hits to KO

252 +2 SpAtk Life Orb Gorebyss Hidden Power Rock vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Lapras: 64.22% - 75.43%
2 hits to KO

252 +2 SpAtk Life Orb Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Quagsire: 91.37% - 107.61%
50% chance to OHKO

Bulky waters, indeed. What are these guys supposed to be doing to Gorebyss again? Walling it? Lolno. Looking at the three calcs I gave, you could still have either Substitute or Ice Beam on your set, and the opponent wouldn't even know about it. And if they predict wrong, they're screwed out of another Pokemon.

 

[Lou Cypher]

252 +2 SpAtk Life Orb Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Quagsire: 91.37% - 107.61%
50% chance to OHKO

Except Quagsire has this little thing called Unaware or even Water Absorb, so I fail to see how this calculation works exactly.
Ofcourse there is HP Grass but...yeah, I think I've made my point.

 

[jake]

Except Quagsire has this little thing called Unaware or even Water Absorb, so I fail to see how this calculation works exactly.
Ofcourse there is HP Grass but...yeah, I think I've made my point.

If you actually calculated a Modest Life Orb Gorebyss' Hydro Pump in the rain, then you'd understand that that calculation is 100% correct and is not counting the +2 from Shell Smash. If it did, the damage output would be 182.23% - 214.72%. However, running Life Orb has its own risks (Modest is sort of made up via Rain Dance), most notably allowing Gorebyss to be OHKOed by Absol after Defense drops.

 

[Axa]

Yeah, Rain 'Byss is almost impossible to shut down- your only hope is via priority or stall Rain out with predicted switches.

I thought about Storm Drain Cradily, but even that is OHKO'd by Ice Beam. Sandstorm allows it to survive, though.

 

[porcelaininja]

Yeah, Rain 'Byss is almost impossible to shut down- your only hope is via priority or stall Rain out with predicted switches.

I thought about Storm Drain Cradily, but even that is OHKO'd by Ice Beam. Sandstorm allows it to survive, though.

Im quite surprised only a handful of you guys seemed to identify how a completely different threat Gorebyss is under rain. That is what prompted me to make my posts re RainByss. Previous checks/counters are no longer relevant esp. so since damage calcs did not take into account the Rain factor (add to the fact Swift Swim + rain w/c I tried to reiterate a lot of times thus no revenge killling bar priority).

A lot of testing needs to be done, obviously. As players try to find different checks/counters to RainByss then that's the only time we can deem it truly broken. But then again, this is the same as Kingdra back in DPP OU; only difference is the tier where Gore is in does not have a multitiude of pokes who can reliably check it, moreso take repeated hits. On a side note, how does Huntail compare to Gore under rain?

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

Except Quagsire has this little thing called Unaware or even Water Absorb, so I fail to see how this calculation works exactly.
Ofcourse there is HP Grass but...yeah, I think I've made my point.

In the Rain, against Unaware Quagsire.:
252 SpAtk Life Orb Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Quagsire: 100.51% - 118.02%
100% chance to OHKO

Yeah, I think I've made my point.

EDIT: Oops, forgot to give Quag a boosting nature,

252 +2 SpAtk Life Orb Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Quagsire: 91.37% - 107.61%
50% chance to OHKO

So I was right the first time I posted the calc. NOW I think I've made my point. -__-

And yes, this was against Unaware Quag, who cancels out the +2 boost.

252 SpAtk Life Orb Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Quagsire: 91.37% - 107.61%
50% chance to OHKO

See, same shit.

DOUBLE EDIT: Even pstats agrees with me:

<StrawHat> !pstats,a pokemon that can counter chaoticas gorebyss
<pstats> That Pokémon doesn't exist.

 

[Oglemi]

Not all of the votes are in yet, but the vote has already been determined, I'll add in the other votes when I receive them:

Gorebyss: Do Not Ban
I do believe that Gorebyss is unhealthy for the metagame but she is not "broken" as there are many common pokemon such as Jynx, Absol and scarved Electric-Types are all capable of handling Gorebyss(though only Jynx can switch in) and the difficulty Gorebyss has in setting up in the current metagame stop it from being outright broken, with only poorly locked choice mons or weak defensive ones providing the opportunity to Shell Smash. I petitioned for the ban of Gorebyss because of rain support but I am currently withdrawing that argument since I need to test it more before being certain. in conclusion there are ways for all types of teams to handle Gorebyss and stop her from setting up, even though she is a major threat and applies constant pressure to the opposition like every other major offensive threat there is not enough to push her over the edge and allow me to classify her as broken in the current metagame.

I know im not great at articulating my thoughts so I'll put a point form so its easier to read

I am voting No Ban because:
- Gorebyss has multiple checks that work on all styles of teams
- Gorebyss has very few threats she can consistently set up on
- The only set I think could be broken I haven't tested enough to know for sure
- There is not enough to push her over the edge(give her some coverage and then shes definitely broken)

Do Not Ban

Whether it was simply because we overprepared for Gorebyss, or the fact that it simply did not live up to the hype, Gorebyss has presented itself as a Pokemon that is good, but not the team destroyer we expected it to be. It has few 100% counters, sure, but as the metagame evolved around Gorebyss we have discovered a ton of checks including but not limited to Jynx, Rotom-S, Throh, Lickilicky, Absol, etc. I like Steamroll's wording here, from the np thread: we are not using arbitrary mons that were solely developed to defeat Gorebyss, such as those few examples that we were hyping early in the np thread like Lombre and Sap Sipper Marill (both of whom don't really beat it anyway). These Pokemon are effective outside of checking Gorebyss and use sets that have a purpose outside of beating Gorebyss, which goes a long way to determine whether or not Gorebyss was broken.

People have tried comparing Gorebyss to Pokemon such as Honchkrow and Salamence; I strongly disagree, mostly because Gorebyss simply doesn't pack the outright power, speed, surprise value, Moxie, etc. Gorebyss is heavily reliant on its Shell Smashing capabilities, which surprisingly leads us to my next point: The metagame can handle Gorebyss. It has become heavily reliant on preventing Gorebyss from setting up, which attributes plenty to its power but nothing to its brokenness. Gorebyss simply cannot find a chance to set up against a well-built team.

Gorebyss simply is a Pokemon (albeit a good one) that every team must be prepared for or lose to. This is true for every prominent Pokemon in the metagame, and by no means is Gorebyss banworthy.

Do Not Ban

To put it simply, Gorebyss did not live up to the hype it received early on this round. I mean yeah of course a +2 Gorebyss is going to be a threat, but there are quite a few Pokemon, especially Scarf Jynx and Rotom-S, that check it at +2. A lot of these Pokemon aren’t really niche at all, since they have great utility for other things as well - for example, Rotom-S checks Gorebyss, both of the birds, and Sawk all at the same time. The same thing applies for Jynx as well. Once Gorebyss sets up it can be a bit frustrating to have something come in and ruin your sweep, since it can be pretty diffucult to try and take down the Pokemon that do check it beforehand. Then there’s the problem of switching Gorebyss in - you have to deal with the possibility of both status effects and taking heavy damage as you set up. There aren’t really that many defensive Pokemon that you can set up on, with the most common ones either being able to take unboosted attacks easily or crippling you as you set up with either status or a strong attack. Gorebyss is frail no matter how you look at it, and its easy to capitalize on that with other Pokemon. Sure you may have to sac a Pokemon to get your counter in with Gorebyss crippled or in a disadvantageous position, but that happens with every Pokemon. Lastly, I don’t necessarily like Gorebyss’s effect on the tier right about now, but once there’s a bit more stabilization, I’m sure we can say for sure that not only is it not broken, but it doesn’t hurt the metagame.

Do not Ban.

Gorebyss is a very powerful threat in the NU metagame, however, I do not feel as if it is too strong to warrant a ban. Finding a time to set-up is really challenging. Since Gorebyss is slow, and NU is very offensively oriented, it's going to be hard for it to set-up without it getting KO'd or taking a ton of damage. Even stall teams will have a way to threaten Gorebyss, and if it manages to set-up there are various ways to beat it before it wrecks havoc upon your team.

There are various checks/counters to Gorebyss - and most of them aren't too obscure. Jynx, Lickilicky, Audino, Musharna, Throh, Regice, Cryogonal, and of course, priority and Choice Scarf users. Frillish, Samurott and Quagsire give trouble to non Hidden Power Grass Gorebyss. If you want, you could even use more gimmicky options to beat Gorebyss like Hidden Power Electric Cryogonal, Thunderbolt Lapras, Tentacool, Shedinja, or whatever; there are plenty of Gorebyss checks.

Now, Gorebyss in the rain is a different story; however, it relies on rain to be up to be as threatening as it could be and there still are a few checks to it. Jynx, for example, does perfectly fine against rain Gorebyss. It's also slightly more vunreable to priority - most notably Samurott's Aqua Jet.

I remember the first day suspect testing was announced and everyone going bonkers at the idea of Gorebyss being unstoppable. Users wanted a quick ban on her before Tennisace even posted the Np thread. From what I've seen this round Gorebyss has been a disappointment to the hype. People said that it would be unstoppable or overcentralizing; I have yet to see a clear cut case of this besides the usage of Jynx, which is only one mon who is just as threatening as Gorebyss by itself.

The thing about Gorebyss and her uses is that she has a multitude of sets, each with their quirks that can ultimately stop her cold. The standard Smash+3 attacks (HP Grass) gets stopped dead cold by Jynx and is revenged by scarf Rotom-S. The Smash+3 attacks (HP Rock) is stopped cold by Unaware Quagsire and can still get revenged by Rotom-S. Life Orb Gorebyss can get killed by priority from the likes of Absol thanks to LO recoil and a harsh -1 defense/special defense drop. SubSmash Gorebyss also has problems in the fact that all she can use is Surf and Ice Beam, leaving her to get mauled by both Quagsire and Jynx. The fact that Gorebyss is diverse and still has a lot of attention doesn't merit anything more than the hype she's gotten. We build teams to check against the premier threats in the tier, we can safely check Gorebyss while not sacrificing the ability to check other threats in NU. This leads me to the conclusion to Not Ban Gorebyss.

Whether or not a Pokemon is broken really hinges on the effort it takes to deal with it. If you have to dedicate more than two Pokemon to deal with one Pokemon, then I would call it broken. If you can deal with the Pokemon with reasonable team building, then it's not broken, just a bit centralizing.

What I mean by reasonable team building is not going totally out of your way to include a counter to the Pokemon. If you're running an offensive team, Scarf Rotom-S is a great Pokemon to gain momentum with a powerful Volt Switch, and good bulk to check things like Scarf Sawk and Leafeon, in addition to checking Gorebyss. If you're running a more defensive team, you can use things like Lickilicky to provide Heal Bell and Wish support, in addition to checking Gorebyss. On more balanced teams, you can use Jynx as a sleep inducer and wallbreaker.

Sure, there are few things that can beat Gorebyss 100% of the time. But I'd argue there are a lot of Pokemon in the tier like that. I'd also that they are all balanced because if you build a solid team and account for most major threats, you should be fine. It's only when a Pokemon can sweep or wall irregardless of checks that it's broken. Gorebyss has a hard time breaking through its checks on the first time or without support. At that point, you've already outplayed your opponent.

Gorebyss is NU

And with that Gorebyss is (so far) unanimously deemed Not Broken and will remain in the NU tier in a 6-0 vote.

New thread will be up shortly.

EDIT: Here's two more votes

Do not ban
Despite all the hype that surrounded Gorebyss when we began the round, the majority of people have been able to cope with it by realising what the good checks and the bad checks are. While there are no hard counters to Gorebyss aside from lolshedinja, there are many checks that are usable even when the opponent doe not have a gorebyss on their team, such as Rotom-s and Jynx- while both of these are SR weak, Rotom-s can easily be replaced for another scarfer such as Electabuzz or Raichu. To be truly powerful, Gorebyss needs to set up a shell smash, which most of the time requires prediction (do I surf the regirock or do I smash, or do I ice beam predicting rotom-s to come in?) Of course, Substitute helps aid prediction, but dropping one of Gorebyss’ coverage moves increases the number of checks by a large amount, even creating some hard counters (quagsire+Jynx become hard counters if he drops HP grass for example, while Grass types such as Amoonguss destroy those lacking Ice Beam). While a team needs to have a way to handle it to be successful, the same can be said for any capable sweeper, such as Absol and Magmortar, both of whom destroy teams lacking anything to check it, in the same way, if your opponent is able to eliminate your checks to the mon, it will sweep, but this does not indicate brokenness- a shell smash does not mean game in any instance unless all it’s checks are released, which is easier said then done, despite the SR weakness of many of the checks, People talk about the ease that it can sweep, but every good team carries a check to it, and unless it is coming in on a choiced resisted move for example (which is not too common) then it requires prediction to get that smash in. Another way of checking it, which is rarely said, is to just maintain the offensive momentum, never giving it a chance to come in and set up, which is not overpreparation- it is just using offensive mons- I have never been swept by a Gorebyss using my HO team which carries none of the defined checks, yet is able to keep it from getting that crucial free turn by maintaining offensive pressuere, and I managaed to get into the top 5 with that team so it is not some stupid overpreparing team which fails against other threats due to checking Gorebyss.
The metagame has adapted to gorebyss pretty well, in that rarely will you see a gorebyss sweep against good players, and this only ever happens if the gorebyss user plays exceptionally well, forcing them to give up their gorebyss counters through use of support from the team.
While gorebyss is a fantastic pokemon which requires checking on a successful team, and centralizes the metagame to some extent, it does not overcentralize the metagame around it. This is my reasoning for voting against a Gorebyss ban.

Well, it doesn't really matter as the majority already voted for not banning. Despite my usual conservative leaning, I think I'll vote ban. The thing is, people rather underestimate an unboosted Gorebyss, but it's rather hard to switch into it even with no boosts, unless your name is Lickilicky, Jynx, or other rather insignificant Pokemon. The fact that it 2HKOs switch-ins, combined with the threat of Shell Smash, Gorebyss can essentially trap Rock-types, and kill them by spamming surf. It's not just the Rock-types that are 'trapped,' and it includes quite a large list of defensive threats. I do recognize that not one Gorebyss set should be allowed to smash through (no pun intended) a well made team. But of course, if you look at other tiers, a lot of banned Pokemon weren't exactly a guaranteed 6-0. A sweeper doesn't need to be a guaranteed win to be considered to be harmful to the metagame.

Well this is pretty much formality now that Gorebyss isn't getting banned for quite some time now. I just feel that an unanimous no ban vote really doesn't do Gorebyss justice. It's still pretty darn good, and despite Absol running through the metagame now, people don't carry situational counters / revengers for Absol - people still do for Gorebyss. Everyone is overprepared, to the point that they don't have space to overprepare enough for things like Absol and Jynx in the same manner.