Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Lol @ Deo-S still being S rank.

...
can somebody count how many times I defend Deoxys-S?

Deoxys-Speed is far from an ideal sweeper.

So a Pokemon that can outspeed Choice Scarf Genesect, 2HKO threats with Super-Effective damage (against specific threats, of course, but the threat is undeniable), and has JUST enough bulk to survive non-Super-Effective Priority some of the time is far from an ideal sweeper?

At best, it functions as a lead/revenge killer-good at the former job, mediocre at the latter. The only thing I could see is "performing multiple roles effectively", and 2 roles that it always takes is hardly "multiple roles".

Dual Screens and TrickScarf. It can also perform an odd Damp Rock Rain Dance set if you don't want to clog Tornadus with that move. Those sets on top of Hazards, Offense, and even a mix of them in some ways, make Deoxys-S unpredictible in many ways.

While it can have diverse attacks, it needs to abuse the most powerful, stat reducing ones to be effective, meaning it will never be able to truly sweep a team.

Fire Punch? Rock Slide? Ice Beam? Those have downsides? Sure Superpower and Psycho Boost, but you can switch between them THEN switch out. I also love how you're mostly focusing on Deoxys-S as an offensive Pokemon, but I completely think that its best set is support, whether it be Screens or Hazards.

I would suggest it being more along the lines of B rank, as it can't sweep significant portions of the metagame, but fulfills the niche of offensive lead extremely well. A rank would be a possibility due to its great job at supporting, but its team support is limited to hazards.

Team support limited to hazards? Wait a minute, let me look...

Taunt
Magic Coat
Trick
The Fastest Knock Off in the Game
Magic Coat

Okay, I think the alien's movepool speaks for itself.

There is no single Pokemon that can outclass Deoxys-S in every way. You can argue Ferrothorn for hazards, but it can't attack (not well, at least) or bounce hazards back. Espeon and Xatu can bounce back things, but can't really do much as far as attacking (not well, again) or setting their own hazards. Espeon and Klefki can set screens, but can't be well on the offense. Some Pokemon take the Revenge Killer role well, but don't typically do well with support. Deoxys-S can attack and support and you won't know until it's too late. I run a Spikes/Taunt/Magic Coat/Ice Beam set and the Ice Beam throws everyone off. It gets Rotom-W into the field to tank the attack and I can Magic Coat a Wisp or Toxic back to it. You won't know every move...it's impossible. When it comes out doesn't help, the item typically doesn't help, and while you know it's there, you NEVER know what it will do to you. Deoxys-S has no Pokemon that competes for all of its roles, giving you options and mind games to abuse. Deoxys-S-Rank for...well, you know (you know, it's going to be Suspect Tested anyways, so even if you try to make it sound bad, it's not dropping).

 

[Dread Arceus]

Deoxys S has some uses : A lead that almost always lives long enough to setup at least 2 hazards, it can act as a potent revenge killer, as a cleaner, and also has access to a wide movepool, which renders it unpredictable.

Even if its roles are pretty much restricted to the ones of a RK or of a Spiker, it is extremely good at what it does, and is a valuable asset to almost any team, justifying the S Rank.

So we go back to the point about Politoed and Ninetales. Both are the best at setting Rain or Sun respectively, can guarantee you'll get your weather up just once, and allow you to deal with your enemies much, much easier. Yes, it only lasts a few turns, but in the Defog meta that's true of SR and Spikes as well. As far as its other roles, its raw stats keep it from being a total monster in revenge killing, and there are far better revenge killers (as every Scarf user does literally the same thing as Deo-S in that aspect). I've never seen Deo-S clean, ever. They rarely last till the end of the game, and the debuffs their moves cause make them weak after 1 hit. And as I said in OP, yes it can use many things, but it really can't do so effectively. While it does have a wide movepool, it can't use half of it effectively due to, again, its stats.

 

[Dread Arceus]

...
can somebody count how many times I defend Deoxys-S?



So a Pokemon that can outspeed Choice Scarf Genesect, 2HKO threats with Super-Effective damage (against specific threats, of course, but the threat is undeniable), and has JUST enough bulk to survive non-Super-Effective Priority some of the time is far from an ideal sweeper?



Dual Screens and TrickScarf. It can also perform an odd Damp Rock Rain Dance set if you don't want to clog Tornadus with that move. Those sets on top of Hazards, Offense, and even a mix of them in some ways, make Deoxys-S unpredictible in many ways.



Fire Punch? Rock Slide? Ice Beam? Those have downsides? Sure Superpower and Psycho Boost, but you can switch between them THEN switch out. I also love how you're mostly focusing on Deoxys-S as an offensive Pokemon, but I completely think that its best set is support, whether it be Screens or Hazards.



Team support limited to hazards? Wait a minute, let me look...

Taunt
Magic Coat
Trick
The Fastest Knock Off in the Game
Magic Coat

Okay, I think the alien's movepool speaks for itself.

There is no single Pokemon that can outclass Deoxys-S in every way. You can argue Ferrothorn for hazards, but it can't attack (not well, at least) or bounce hazards back. Espeon and Xatu can bounce back things, but can't really do much as far as attacking (not well, again) or setting their own hazards. Espeon and Klefki can set screens, but can't be well on the offense. Some Pokemon take the Revenge Killer role well, but don't typically do well with support. Deoxys-S can attack and support and you won't know until it's too late. I run a Spikes/Taunt/Magic Coat/Ice Beam set and the Ice Beam throws everyone off. It gets Rotom-W into the field to tank the attack and I can Magic Coat a Wisp or Toxic back to it. You won't know every move...it's impossible. When it comes out doesn't help, the item typically doesn't help, and while you know it's there, you NEVER know what it will do to you. Deoxys-S has no Pokemon that competes for all of its roles, giving you options and mind games to abuse. Deoxys-S-Rank for...well, you know (you know, it's going to be Suspect Tested anyways, so even if you try to make it sound bad, it's not dropping).

Now let's point out the flaws....
1. Yes, it goes really fast. It's kinda like a dog that catches a car though..."I have it, now what do I even do?" As you said yourself, it 2HKOs threats with Super-Effective damage. I'm sorry, did you miss the "kill" part of "revenge kill"? Because 2HKOing something when you're SE to it is pretty bad. Oh, and let's not forget its only method of dealing that much damage is using moves that debuff it (ie Psycho Boost and Superpower).
2. Its dual screens set is kinda pointless in a game with a like a million Pranksters. And, lol @ TrickScarf. Congrats on locking in to SR because you decided to use a gimmick.
3. The only things its killing with the moves you listed must be 4x weak to it or have non-existent bulk (and still be 2x weak to them). And yes, as it would fit best in to Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If it's S rank just because of support, does that mean Smeargle and Mew should be S rank?...
4. Yes, the support movepool is nice, and I did neglect Knock Off. Three of the moves you list are self-support, not team-support moves.
5. No, there's no single Pokemon that does the exact same thing as Deoxys-S. That's true of almost every Pokemon-nothing does the exact same thing as C ranked Diggersby, Forretress, or Ditto either. However, Smeargle, Pranksters, and Mew can do similar things-and they're apparently not even worth listing on here.
EDIT: Could I get a link to this thread? Because if we're suspecting Deoxys-S before things like Genesect and Mega Lucario, there's something wrong.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Could I get a link to this thread? Because if we're suspecting Deoxys-S before things like Genesect and Mega Lucario, there's something wrong.

Gladly: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/deoxys-speed.3492448/

Haunter's post under the initial post.

 

[RufflesPro]

Now let's point out the flaws....
1. Yes, it goes really fast. It's kinda like a dog that catches a car though..."I have it, now what do I even do?" As you said yourself, it 2HKOs threats with Super-Effective damage. I'm sorry, did you miss the "kill" part of "revenge kill"? Because 2HKOing something when you're SE to it is pretty bad. Oh, and let's not forget its only method of dealing that much damage is using moves that debuff it (ie Psycho Boost and Superpower).
2. Its dual screens set is kinda pointless in a game with a like a million Pranksters. And, lol @ TrickScarf. Congrats on locking in to SR because you decided to use a gimmick.
3. The only things its killing with the moves you listed must be 4x weak to it or have non-existent bulk (and still be 2x weak to them). And yes, as it would fit best in to Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If it's S rank just because of support, does that mean Smeargle and Mew should be S rank?...
4. Yes, the support movepool is nice, and I did neglect Knock Off. Three of the moves you list are self-support, not team-support moves.
5. No, there's no single Pokemon that does the exact same thing as Deoxys-S. That's true of almost every Pokemon-nothing does the exact same thing as C ranked Diggersby, Forretress, or Ditto either. However, Smeargle, Pranksters, and Mew can do similar things-and they're apparently not even worth listing on here.

1- No, he meant, super effective NON stab NO investment 2HKO-es most of the threats
2- Million Pranksters? The only viable 1 is Sabeleye, Klefki's only niche is prankster dual screens, and even then Deo-S outclasses it. Trick + Scarf is very very viable, you use trick FIRST so you don't even be locked into SR.
3- No ..., Deo-s can dent the whole un-resisted metagame with Psycho Boost WITHOUT investment, it can run Ice beam to OHKO a lot of viable threats and Fire Punch to also OHKO viable threats. They ARE out for x4 pokemons.
4- Magic Coat reflects hazards, that's not self support, you can taunt a pokemon and switch to a pokemon and set up, if you trick the main threat on his team you basically have nothing more to fear. Furthermore he has SR & Spikes.
5- Wut? Diggersby's only niche is Return & Earthquake, and that is really outclassed by tons of pokemon. Ditto does NOTHING, yet he does EVERYTHING, he is a situational pokemon completely un-related to this conversation. Forretress is outclassed by Ferrothorn, if you mean RS + Hazards, then that is done by Excadrill better, and Skarmory (Defog). Mew doesn't have good stats, nor does smeargle, I have stated my thoughts on Pranksters.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Salamence is a solid B/B-/B+ rank imo. Not because of DD, fuck DD, that shit lost it's niche a long time ago, I'm talking about the one and only WISH MENCE and MIXMENCE.

MixMence has been in the game for years, it breaks through so much stall and offense teams every time a new variation of it is introduced. MixMence may have to deal with fairies, but the raw amount of hard switching this causes for any team lacking sylv/florges is insane, but it does have 4MSS, it does want to have
EQ/DD/FB/Hydro/Outrage/DragonClaw/Brick Break/Aqua Tail all at the same time, but the fact that it can have so much variations and combinations of it is the scary part about mix mence as once you see the intimidate or draco, you don't know whats coming next from mixmence.

Also, let me say this, wishmence is old, and it's not available with moxie, same with Hpump for mixmence, just gotta warn ya. Anyways, Wishmence(the bold/impish variant from RSE, yes) makes for an amazing pivot into things like Mega Luke (+1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 176-208 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery ----- -1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 79-93 (20 - 23.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery) due to it's very surprisingly good defensive typing and bulk (with intimidate).(mamos -1 ice shard can't even 2HKO! -1 252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 160-192 (40.6 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) This set honestly can just shit on many things trying to sweep physically and stop them dead in their tracks, overall, FUCK BULKY DNITE :]. That's all I have to say, bulky dnite is less bulky after multiscale breaks and intimidate is factored in, so bulky dnite can live more 1 shots than mence, yes, but mence is better over the course of time, that and it's 95 base HP wishes rival sylveons! overall wishmence is such a great wall in this meta, it can barely get 2HKOd by some dragon claws!
-1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 164-194 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Nominating Mega-Abomasnow for B+ Rank imo
Mega abomasnow is seriously underrated, it gave abomasnow all it needed to abuse it's uniqueness: good stats, well, except for speed, LOL. nah, in all seriousness, mega abomasnow is great in play, it has so much useful resistances from grass, water, electric, ground etc. to- ah fuck it at this point I may as well just quote my own post from another thread:
"abomasnow rips through so many stall cores & pokemon and offensive pokemon like gastro, zygarde, garchomp, rotom-w, mega gyara, bold mega saur etc. Mega abomasnow's power is really underrated, combined with it's coverage and surprisingly nice STABs make it such a threat. The mega mechanics actually help it also it gets to hit off a base 60 speed first turn. It's blizzard is one of the hardest hitting ice moves available in OU, combined with bulky waters being hit hard by it's secondary STAB make it very hard to wall (steels can't switch in much barring aegis due to focus miss). In addition to it's offensive prowess, it hard a very surprisingly good defensive typing resisting all water, electric, grass, ground, and more while being nicely neutral to ice/ice beam (which is very important to walling waters and mamo) while unfortunately being very weak to fighting and fire however this is still a largely surprisingly good typing. letting it pivot into many attackers like starmie, politoed, mamoswine, greninja, zygarde, garchomp, rotom-w etc. . Overall mega aboma is definately a high reward pokemon when played right and is way too underrated"
Calcs:
252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 127-150 (33 - 39%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 157-186 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 136-161 (35.4 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 77-90 (20 - 23.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow in Rain: 165-195 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow in Rain: 135-160 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow in Rain: 120-142 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- 79.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 156-185 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 140-165 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 95-113 (24.7 - 29.4%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 220-259 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 147-174 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 129-152 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 122-144 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 88.5% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 78-92 (20.3 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
etc.

I believe these kinda got old and sort of agreed on (left on staraptor since I was apparently drunk when writing it because honestly staraptor is really niche in hindsight)

I just want to speak upon wishmence once more, because that thing is legitimately AWESOME in practice. WishMence walls so much of the physical metagame it's INSANE, from mega luke to unboosted dnite. I got to 6-1 with a wishmene stall team a couple of days ago, while yes I did have other team members, wishmence just did WORK, I honestly find it to be, about ~70% more utility-full than moxiemence, not a direct comparison but I encourage people to try it (btw you can slash roost over wish to run a second move over where protect would be, but I just find the wish team support too good to pass up for my stall team)

Not only that, but, Jesus mega abomasnow is the ice king man, except you know, not a total failure at everything it does. Jokes aside, this thing is amazingly useful to check and counter many pokemon, including wishmence itself.

also, funny to notice, these 2 guys could actually form a nice core together.

 

[Ulevo]

Gladly: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/deoxys-speed.3492448/

Haunter's post under the initial post.

To be fair, that was almost 2 months ago.

 

[bookwyrm]

Having a thread in the OU forum is not the same thing as getting an analysis. The pokemon who are getting OU analyses can be found here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/ou-analyses.255/

Looking at the first thread in that link, it looks like Tyrantrum is reserved for analysis. Doesn't that mean that it IS being given an analysis and is thus eligible for ranking? Or did I completely misinterpret the thread? Anyway, I have no competitive experience with Tyrantrum, so I can't speak to its ranking (if it's eligible for one), but at first glance its many weaknesses and low speed seem like serious liabilities. But at least it counters Talonflame.

 

[6feetunder]

Looking at the first thread in that link, it looks like Tyrantrum is reserved for analysis. Doesn't that mean that it IS being given an analysis and is thus eligible for ranking? Or did I completely misinterpret the thread? Anyway, I have no competitive experience with Tyrantrum, so I can't speak to its ranking (if it's eligible for one), but at first glance its many weaknesses and low speed seem like serious liabilities. But at least it counters Talonflame.

It WAS reserved for an analysis, but it was rejected: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tyrantrum-qc-2-3.3496602

 

[xSilentDeviL]

Lol @ Deo-S still being S rank. From OP: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.
Deoxys-Speed is far from an ideal sweeper. At best, it functions as a lead/revenge killer-good at the former job, mediocre at the latter. The only thing I could see is "performing multiple roles effectively", and 2 roles that it always takes is hardly "multiple roles". While it can have diverse attacks, it needs to abuse the most powerful, stat reducing ones to be effective, meaning it will never be able to truly sweep a team. I would suggest it being more along the lines of B rank, as it can't sweep significant portions of the metagame, but fulfills the niche of offensive lead extremely well. A rank would be a possibility due to its great job at supporting, but its team support is limited to hazards.

I bolded the statement that makes Deoxy-S fit in the S tier. It does not need to fit into multiple roles within the description, as it fills the bolded one perfectly. Other than Espeon and Xatu, Deoxy-S basically assures hazards on the field, while also possessing one of fastest taunt in the game to shut down stall teams. It runs a pretty awesome dual screen set also. There really aren't many good ways to counter Deoxy-S other than magic bouncers, which aren't seeing much use this gen, and are easily taken care of by pursuit users.

 

[LoDart210]

Looking at the first thread in that link, it looks like Tyrantrum is reserved for analysis. Doesn't that mean that it IS being given an analysis and is thus eligible for ranking? Or did I completely misinterpret the thread? Anyway, I have no competitive experience with Tyrantrum, so I can't speak to its ranking (if it's eligible for one), but at first glance its many weaknesses and low speed seem like serious liabilities. But at least it counters Talonflame.

Aha! There is hope, in which case ill bring back up my post (only because I'm mobile and don't know how to wrap text in spoilers



Edit: aaand I spoke too soon. I suppose I'll have to wait for rock head to be released..... SOON.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

So, as Deoxys-S is staying in S and Tyrantrum is not being ranked, I'd like to bring this back from the last page, where it was kinda ignored.

Alright, as mentioned before, I'd like to nominate Mega-Gardevoir for B-rank, due to sheer power and usable special bulk. Mega-Gardevoir has the strongest sound move in the game I believe, lacking items to boost it but timid gardevoir doing more damage than modest scarf exploud--a calm mind is all it needs to outdamage specs exploud and hit common types super-effectively as well. It also has a very strong STAB-psyshock, able to damage specially defensive pokemon. Add average speed to the mix, and it can lay the hurt on slow physical attackers along with special attackers.

I can testify that mega-Gardevoir is a beast. It has a very impressive stab hyper voice, and very few weakness (only steel, poison, and ghost) combined with great bulk. I'm not sure if B is quite right just because it is so completely countered by Aegislash (and genesect with steel stab, if anyone else is using that). It also really wants a way to break through steel types, and it doesn't have that. I would put it at B-.

 

[Remc⓪]

I'm curious why would Volcorona be B+ this generation while last gen it was A.
Hell it actually got better considering the Defog buff, lack of never ending rain,
and the new resistance to fairy types.
Or this may just be the existence of Talonflame ruining volcs day ?

 

[xSilentDeviL]

I'm curious why would Volcorona be B+ this generation while last gen it was A.
Hell it actually got better considering the Defog buff, lack of never ending rain,
and the new resistance to fairy types.
Or this may just be the existence of Talonflame ruining volcs day ?

Yes Talonflame destroys it no matter how many quiver dances it gets. Volcarona also enjoyed spamming hurricane in rain last gen too..

 

[Remc⓪]

Yes Talonflame destroys it no matter how many quiver dances it gets. Volcarona also enjoyed spamming hurricane in rain last gen too..

But doesn't Dragonite outclass him as a hurricane abuser, he got thunder as a second spammable move, isn't hurt by water type moves, and his stabs aren't really weakened by the rain.

 

[LoDart210]

Ho

So, as Deoxys-S is staying in S and Tyrantrum is not being ranked, I'd like to bring this back from the last page, where it was kinda ignored.


I can testify that mega-Gardevoir is a beast. It has a very impressive stab hyper voice, and very few weakness (only steel, poison, and ghost) combined with great bulk. I'm not sure if B is quite right just because it is so completely countered by Aegislash (and genesect with steel stab, if anyone else is using that). It also really wants a way to break through steel types, and it doesn't have that. I would put it at B-.

How does it do against the increased physical presence though?

Not that I want to deny mega gardevoir it's rightful rank.

 

[xSilentDeviL]

But doesn't Dragonite outclass him as a hurricane abuser, he got thunder as a second spammable move, isn't hurt by water type moves, and his stabs aren't really weakened by the rain.

but think about it, most pokemon on a rain team are water type and resist water for volcarona, who resists their grass weakness. Same goes for Dragonite, but the two bring such different types to the field that it more so depends on the rest of the team who the Hurricane user would be. Maybe you needed that STAB Bug buzz more to take care of Celebi who countered rain teams pretty well.

 

[Sandoori]

I'm curious why would Volcorona be B+ this generation while last gen it was A.
Hell it actually got better considering the Defog buff, lack of never ending rain,
and the new resistance to fairy types.
Or this may just be the existence of Talonflame ruining volcs day ?

I was thinking B+ initially, but after playing with it more on showdown and considering HP Rock as an answer to predicted Talonflame switch-ins, A- makes a ton more sense to me, especially with how relevant it is for fighting common threats such as Genesect/Mega Lucario/Mega Mawile/Aegislash/Rotom-W and even beating threats like Mega Pinsir or Azumarill if it's had prior setup. Defog buff is highly beneficial to it as well and was something I forgot to consider.

I think I've said most of what I'd consider significant about it in previous posts already so I'll just leave it at that.

On the topic of Mega Gardevoir: I really wish it had a bit more physical bulk, and wasn't stuck in that annoying 100 speed tier, but I can attest that Pixilate Hyper Voice isn't something many mons want to switch in on, and the ones that can probably won't like any other coverage moves she can throw out either. Gardevoir's also got a nice support movepool, so there's versatility in what it can do. However that physical bulk is really crippling; Scizor and M-Luc Bullet Punches both threaten to OHKO with priority, scarf Genesect's current popularity isn't doing it any favors...really, anything faster that hits physically will significantly dent those 68/65 defenses. I'd probably agree with B-, despite its flaws I can't really see it lower than that.

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

I was thinking B+ initially, but after playing with it more on showdown and considering HP Rock as an answer to predicted Talonflame switch-ins, A- makes a ton more sense to me, especially with how relevant it is for fighting common threats such as Genesect/Mega Lucario/Mega Mawile/Aegislash/Rotom-W and even beating threats like Mega Pinsir or Azumarill if it's had prior setup. Defog buff is highly beneficial to it as well and was something I forgot to consider.

The only problem here is that even if it's running HP rock for talonflame, that just takes a coverage move away that could have destroyed one of it's hard counters; Heatran can still beat it any day of the week, and, despite your post, Crawdaunt, Talonflame, and Azumarill can *ALWAYS* check it due to their hard hitting aqua jets/brave birds. Additionally, even with HP Rock it can't do anything to weaknite first turn, and weaknite retaliates with +2 Attack (after weakness policy on the HP rock) earthquake. Other pokemon, like Deo-S, are in OU and can also check it. Tornadus is down here to SPAM Hurricane/Air Slash, making it's job harder. Many pokemon are running rock coverage to hit talonflame (ancientpower heatran, HP Rock Rotom-W, etc.), making it an even weaker option due to it's ability to be suprise KOd.

Finally, sweepers just *aren't that good* in the current meta. The current meta is loaded with priority and has few chances for set up. Volcarona isn't particularly capable of making a good bulky pivot thanks to that horrible rocks weakness, restricting it to only see niche use as an easily walled sweeper. Additionally, while it did gain a weakness, one of it's STABs also gained a resistance, making it easier to wall than ever (which was already pretty easy for a fair few pokemon). I'd send it to B/B-

Edit: Oh, right, small point: Goodra was introduced too, which gives another option which walls it to hell and back, and assault vest was introduced which allows many more pokemon to tank an attack and KO (like Lando-T, able to tank a +1 fiery dance thanks to assault vest and stone edge back... I'm sure Conk can do the same thing, and probably several other pokemon).

 

[midend]

Yup, Mega Venusaur is definatley a iron wall, hands down the best defensive Mega out there. (Why doesn't Aggron get any Reliable recovery? :( ) But how does Zard X handle Green Bean here?

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 320-378 (87.9 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

So after a Dragon Dance Zard X is gonna dent Mega Venusaur quite a bit, but that's still impressive on Venusaur's part given that this particular one doesn't have Defense Investment. Mega Pinsir absolutely wrecks Mega Venusaur however, but you win some you lose some I suppose, most Pokemon have a exploitable Achilles Heel, and Mega Venusaur's is Flying and Psychic. Overall it's the best Defensive Mega and with it's suprisingly good Bulk, Mega Venusaur deserves no less then A in my humble opinion.

Bro you're talking about a real powerful boosted move here against a hp invested only megasaur, which only serves to prove how goddamn good it really is

 

[rachet67]

Of course you'd choose them for different reasons. If they had the exact same niche, then one would clearly outclass the other and we'd have a pointless argument on whether the inferior one should even get a rank (see Sylveon vs. Florges). Offensive pokemon in A+ can sweep almost the entire metagame without needing that much support, and Keldeo can't do that. There's a decent chance your opponent has a pokemon that completely walls Keldeo without even trying, and without rain support (which is not an easy thing to provide), Keldeo is not able to get past them. I'm still voting we bring him down to B+, but I'm ok with A, because if I stretch my suspension of disbelief, I can see how specs hydro pumps can wreck teams, but A+ is too high.

Keldeo has mixed coverage unlike greninja, and different stabs. They're really completely different pokemon. Keldeo isn't supposed to sweep, its supposed to break walls. Even things that can take a hit from keldeo (pretty much only slyveon, venesaur, and azuramil) still take a ton of damage from specs, even more if modest is used (not that I'm encouraging modest, its just acceptable with a specs set). Besides these pokemon, its other (better) counters, such as celebi, jellicent, and latias are not used nearly as much as last gen. Keldeo is still one of the best pokemon at tearing holes in teams, and deserves A+ rank because of this.

 

[jgj]

The only problem here is that even if it's running HP rock for talonflame, that just takes a coverage move away that could have destroyed one of it's hard counters; Heatran can still beat it any day of the week, and, despite your post, Crawdaunt, Talonflame, and Azumarill can *ALWAYS* check it due to their hard hitting aqua jets/brave birds. Additionally, even with HP Rock it can't do anything to weaknite first turn, and weaknite retaliates with +2 Attack (after weakness policy on the HP rock) earthquake. Other pokemon, like Deo-S, are in OU and can also check it. Tornadus is down here to SPAM Hurricane/Air Slash, making it's job harder. Many pokemon are running rock coverage to hit talonflame (ancientpower heatran, HP Rock Rotom-W, etc.), making it an even weaker option due to it's ability to be suprise KOd.

Finally, sweepers just *aren't that good* in the current meta. The current meta is loaded with priority and has few chances for set up. Volcarona isn't particularly capable of making a good bulky pivot thanks to that horrible rocks weakness, restricting it to only see niche use as an easily walled sweeper. Additionally, while it did gain a weakness, one of it's STABs also gained a resistance, making it easier to wall than ever (which was already pretty easy for a fair few pokemon). I'd send it to B/B-

Edit: Oh, right, small point: Goodra was introduced too, which gives another option which walls it to hell and back, and assault vest was introduced which allows many more pokemon to tank an attack and KO (like Lando-T, able to tank a +1 fiery dance thanks to assault vest and stone edge back... I'm sure Conk can do the same thing, and probably several other pokemon).

Volcarona has more opportunities to set up than most set up sweepers due to its unique typing and set up move boosting its Sp Def (Scizor, Breloom, Ferrothorn, Venusaur(Mega also) etc). It also sets up on Shadow Ball Aegislash with its bulky set, one of the most common Mons in the meta(although it can't switch into it, it doesn't have to fear Shadow Ball while setting up in front of it):
252+ SpA Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. +1 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 123-145 (33.1 - 39%) -- 11.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Goodra and Conk are actually set up bait for Bulky Quiver Volc (Conk usually don't run Rock coverage)

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Volcarona: 116-137 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Goodra Dragon Pulse vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 130-154 (35 - 41.5%) -- 73.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Goodra Dragon Pulse vs. +1 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 87-103 (23.4 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Defog definitely helps with its Stealth Rock issues. However, I definitely agree with your other points about the increased number of checks and how the Meta is a bit unkind to Volc. It should probably be B or B+ rank(not too sure about B+ but B should be minimum).

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

Bro you're talking about a real powerful boosted move here against a hp invested only megasaur, which only serves to prove how goddamn good it really is

You completely missed the point of that post, I even mention that's it impressive that MegaSaur took that like it did considering that MegaSaur's EV Spread, I go into the fact that it's a great defensive mega, and the closing statement even stated that I said it's the best defensive Mega in my opinion.

 

[Haze Milotic]

Can I be honest and just add my opinion that Mega-Pinsir is not good? At all? It's so easily predictable, as you can't use him in OU without Mega evolving him, he's just too easy to take out without Mega evolving. And an Ice Beam from literally any Pokemon that is OU viable OHKO's it. It's weak and sure, STAB Quick Attack is nice, But it isn't anywhere near as good as Mega-Lucario's Vacuum Wave, if anyone has seen that. Mega-Pinsir should be A at best, but I truly believe it deserves a B+ or an A-, but not an A+.

 

[Star]

Can I be honest and just add my opinion that Mega-Pinsir is not good? At all? It's so easily predictable, as you can't use him in OU without Mega evolving him, he's just too easy to take out without Mega evolving. And an Ice Beam from literally any Pokemon that is OU viable OHKO's it. It's weak and sure, STAB Quick Attack is nice, But it isn't anywhere near as good as Mega-Lucario's Vacuum Wave, if anyone has seen that. Mega-Pinsir should be A at best, but I truly believe it deserves a B+ or an A-, but not an A+.

Mega Pinsir is incredibly good in the metagame. It can find several opportunities to set up and takes advantage of them with an SD. You say any Ice Beam will KO it, but whos getting off the ice beam. The most common Ice Beam users in the game Genesect and Greninja, get murdered by a +2 Mega Pinsir.

+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 247-292 (87.2 - 103.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 295-348 (103.1 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

After a SD, this guy is incredibly difficult to stop. Its main function is a late game cleaner or mid game momentum gainer and it performs that role perfectly and therefore deserves A+ rank.