XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

[eggman62]

that's not how magnezone works. it's going to switch on something that can't damage it (and it's the most resistant pokémon in the entire game!), force a switch and cripple or outright destroy the switch-in.

-you're using a toxic defog zapdos, or florges, or a resisted locked move, or etc;
-i switch magnezone in;
-you can't touch me, so you switch out;

now, you switch out and send one of those you mentioned:

thunderbolt does 80% average, and you lack recovery;

flash cannon does 55%-63% on the switch, and the next one does 44%-49%. wanna risk?

does 68% minimum, assuming you're using the retarded specially defensive set which sucks ?_?

thunderbolt

flash cannon does 50% minimum to 252/252+ celebi, after stealth rock it's a clean 2HKO and no celebi run earth power because it's bad

can't break, but can volt switch out and send something like mienshao or hawlucha

i don't know if cresselias are usually physic or special defensive, but if it is running calm mind it's probably physic defensive; in that case, thunderbolt does 56%-66% and will outlast moonlight. if it goes for calm mind instead, it will be at 34%-44%, while the other thunderbolt will do 37%-44%, again needing luck with damage numbers.

again, not sure if they're physic or special defensive, but according to statistics, most are impish. in that case, flash cannon does 90%-100%, and magnezone outspeeds it

clean OHKO with thunderbolt if they're not using hp/spdef evs or assault vest

clean OHKO with flash cannon

the most used set is 252 hp/252 atk adamant, which takes average 60% from thunderbolt, but the careful one takes 45%. volt switch anyways

grass hidden power OHKOs it cleanly (signal beam, hidden power ice are all bad, don't use them)

252 hp/252 spdef calm zapdos takes up to 76% from thunderbolt on the switch, risking being OHKOed w/ stealth rock. also, if stealth rock is up, volt switch will do 50% minimum, and i'll send anything faster => bye zapdos

takes 81%-96% from flash cannon

also, other 2 special walls that are used a lot, jirachi and florges, cannot hope to dream to avoid dying to magnezone; pretty neat for a special attacker

Pair zone with shaymin and capatize off the 40% chance seed flare has to lower Spdef and a lot of the 2HKO become OHKO

"Reliably" and "with prediction" cannot stay in the same sentence.


To use your own argument, it's way too easy to switch in your Ground-type on the obvious Magnezone switch in the next turn.


Uh, nice team with two Ground-weak Electric-types you got there?
Anyway, what you have accomplished exactly? After your opponent knows what move you're locked into, you're both going to blindly predict. Magnezone brought you no concrete advantage.

Can we drop the "prediction" argument, please? Prediction is always taking a gamble, which implies any of the two players can win it. An S-rank Pokémon should not force you to rely on prediction.


This is the statement we are arguing about: "Magnezone is an S-rank Pokémon, meaning it can reliably etc."
If you think that statement is true you are the one making a claim about Magnezone and you should support it with arguments. I, on the other hand, am opposing it, which means I should provide counterarguments.

The fact that Magnezone is listed in the S rank right now is irrelevant. Whoever put it in that position has the burden to justify its decision.


Show me what Pokémon we are talking about, because I'm saying I don't buy it.

Chansey: Can't do anything against it.

Hawlucha: High Jump Kick.

Houndoom (Mega): Fire STAB.

Hydreigon: Takes huge damage from Dark Pulse, can't switch in Focus Blast/Earth Power/Earthquake.

Magnezone: Can't do anything against it.

Slowbro: +

Suicune: +

Blastoise (Mega): Aura Sphere.

Celebi: Can't defeat specially defensive Celebi after switching in, it has reason to fear Earth Power from offensive variants.

Chandelure: Fire STAB.

Chesnaught: Hammer Arm, can Spiky Shield to see what it locks itself into.

Crawdaunt: Knock Off + Aqua Jet is enough to kill.

Darmanitan: Fire STAB.

Florges: can Protect to see what it locks itself into.

Keldeo: Secret Sword.

Latias: +

Mew: + (if defensive)

Mienshao: Fighting STAB.

Victini: V-create.

Zapdos: Can't defeat specially defensive Zapdos after switching in, Heat Wave.

Crobat: + (but Crobat could just U-turn as it switches in)

Haxorus: Earthquake.

Heracross: Close Combat.

Hippowdon: Earthquake.

Jirachi: + (if defensive)

Manectric (Mega): Overheat.

Nidoking: Earth Power.

Reuniclus: Either Calm Mind or Trick Room + Focus Blast.

Roserade: Can Sleep Powder.

Tornadus-T: Focus Blast, Heat Wave.

Zygarde: Earthquake.

Absol (Mega): +

Aggron (Mega): Earthquake.

Azelf: Fire Blast.

Empoleon: +

Entei: Fire STAB.

Krookodile: Earthquake.

Kyurem: Earth Power.

Can I stop here? This is becoming tedious. The whole argument behind Magnezone seems to be "It can switch into a lot of stuff, force said stuff out, and deal huge amount of damage (if it predicts the next switch in right)."
The Pokémon it can't reliably switch into are way more then the Pokémon that give it free switches. And it is slow, meaning that it can't actually force a lot of switches against many offensive Pokémon.
And, even when it does switch in safely and can force a switch it is still not guaranteed to do anything useful, especially against Florges, which can just scout what move you're going to lock yourself into.

I have been using zone for sometime and while I completely agree with you in terms of it being difficult to switch Zone in, I have found this problem easily countered through clever teambulding and rational gameplay.

I personally use shaymin and Zone together and while they share a weakness to fire moves, they work really well together as they easily lure each others counters and checks in. For example a common counter to shaymin is Crobat, which is resistant to everyone of shaymins moves, Magnezone on the other hand is more or less immune to crobat forcing the oppenent to switch.

As I said before, yes zone can be difficult to switch in but at the end of the day the offensive pressure and the amount of damage a spec analytic Zone puts on opponents once it is in is more than enough to justify why it is S classed. As for all the pokemon you listed that Zone cant switch into lool put simply by Robert Alfons Good luck switching that shit in on Magnezone.

Calcs bellow

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 220 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 280-330 (70.7 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Mega Aggron: 289-342 (84 - 99.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 399-471 (107.2 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 228-268 (66.8 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[Taehl]

Pair zone with shaymin and capatize off the 40% chance seed flare has to lower Spdef and a lot of the 2HKO become OHKO



I have been using zone for sometime and while I completely agree with you in terms of it being difficult to switch Zone in, I have found this problem easily countered through clever teambulding and rational gameplay.

I personally use shaymin and Zone together and while they share a weakness to fire moves, they work really well together as they easily lure each others counters and checks in. For example a common counter to shaymin is Crobat, which is resistant to everyone of shaymins moves, Magnezone on the other hand is more or less immune to crobat forcing the oppenent to switch.

As I said before, yes zone can be difficult to switch in but at the end of the day the offensive pressure and the amount of damage a spec analytic Zone puts on opponents once it is in is more than enough to justify why it is S classed. As for all the pokemon you listed that Zone cant switch into lool put simply by Robert Alfons Good luck switching that shit in on Magnezone.

Calcs bellow

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 220 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 280-330 (70.7 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Mega Aggron: 289-342 (84 - 99.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 399-471 (107.2 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 228-268 (66.8 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

These calcs don't make any sense. Nobody switches Aggron or Entei into Magnezone.
And 0 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi? Just no.

 

[Shiruba]

Anyway, perhaps a change of topic?

Ctrl + F Qwilfish
No results found.

C'mon, at least mention him if nothing else. I wasn't a believer until I really used a 'fish last gen when Froslass was banned - it was great, an awesome switchin to many physical pokes due to its resistances and Intimidate, especially top-tier threats Heracross, Darmanitan, and Mienshao, while being able to Taunt slower support 'mons [it has a decent 85 speed], and set up some spikes if it chose, in addition to a not-bad-for-a-support-'mon base 95 attack. Poison also got buffed this gen to resist Fairies, and Pain Split is cool for attempting to stall out powerful SE attacks like this:
-1 252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 218-260 (65.2 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Though I wouldn't really recommend it unless it's necessary.

That said, Defog happened, there are more and stronger Special Attackers, and it doesn't have much in the way of offensive pressure without significant investment, and it has no reliable recovery. Haven't used it this gen, so I'm not sure of its effectiveness now.
It's also mildly repulsive to look at due to its obese-person lips, though perhaps this makes it more intimidating in the eyes of your enemies.

 

[TPO3]

I'd like to propose Heliolisk to be removed from the list In my experience, Heliolisk hasn't been threatening at all. As something to offensively use Volt Switch and keep pressure on the opposing team, it's completely inferior to both Mega Manectric and Raikou. Mega Manectric has much higher Special Attack, Speed, and gets very similar coverage moves, minus Focus Blast, while Raikou boasts superior stats in literally every single category, and can get the exact same coverage while having the much more reliable Aura Sphere as opposed to Heliolisk's Focus Blast. I mean, I guess Heliolisk gets Surf, but it's not like Darmanitan is going to be switching into you any time soon.

Heliolisk also has pitiful defenses (62/52/94) which makes it inferior to Heat Rotom and Mega Ampharos. The only thing that really separates it is Dry Skin, but its defenses are so pitiful that it is very hard to risk multiple switch-ins. Heat Rotom also has Pain Split, a status move, a ground immunity, and resistances to Grass and Fire, while Mega Ampharos gets secondary Dragon typing, which gives it a multitude of resistances, and Mega Ampharos can again, achieve the exact same coverage moves with the exception of like Surf. I just can't find any reason anybody should be using heliolisk when there's not just one, but FOUR other electric-types that do basically the same thing. If you really really want to keep in on the list, make it like C tier or something, but I don't see a reason for it to even be present.

Next, I'd like to nominate Mismagius for C+tier. It was a great counter to Diggersby (rip), and it turned things like Deo-D into setup bait, but they're both gone now, and like Heliolisk, I don't see a reason for using it in the tier. As a fast Nasty Plotter, it's pretty inferior to Mew who boasts EXTREMELY superior 100/100 bulk, as well as Aura Sphere > HP Fighting. Mismagius is just BEGGING for Dark-types to switch in, and Sub isn't even a reliable way to play around Sucker Punches anymore since Mega Absol and Houndoom just outspeed you anyways. In addition, there are a few counters (ie Snorlax) and several checks (ie Suicune, Zapdos, anything above base 105 speed and a powerful offensive STAB, lots of scarfers) in the top few tiers. I don't think it's as effective as it once was.

I'd also like to propose that every single Sticky-Web pokemon moves down a tier or two. Sticky Web, as I've said multiple times, is a great move. The pokemon that have access to it, however, suck. Really hard. You're basically playing a game 5 on 6, since every single Sticky Web-user except Shuckle just dies instantly. Shuckle itself is a pretty pitiful pokemon, but at least it has Encore, Stealth Rock, and Toxic to prevent itself from being completely useless. It still doesn't have any reliable recovery outside of Rest, though, which just turns it into setup bait for a lot of pokemon.

Proposing that Archeops and Articuno also both be completely removed. Archeops wasn't useful in gen 5, and it didn't (to my knowledge) get any new toys in gen 6 that made it better. If anything, it got worse with the release of Mega Aerodactyl. Defeatest is just a piss-poor ability, and there's quite a few mons in the top tiers (Hippowdon, Doublade, Zygarde, etc.) that can easily eat a Head Smash. Articuno is 4x weak to Stealth Rock, its defensive typing is terrible, its most powerful offensive STABs have 70% accuracy, and the only new toy it got in gen 6 was Defog. If you want to use a 4x Rock weak pokemon as your defogger, be my guest.

A couple of other things I want to say without expanding too much on (probably because I really shouldn't need to):
>Why in God's name is Steelix on this list
>Putting Pory2 in the same tier is insulting. Pory2 -> B
>Just because something gets Boomburst doesn't mean it's useful. (lolchatot)
>Putting Porygon-Z lower than Steelix is also insulting. Pory-Z -> B-tier
>Jolteon -> B- tier. Much faster and almost as powerful as Raikou, but still usually inferior.
>Remove Weezing, or at least move it down to C or C-tier. Now that Mega Heracross is gone, it's not needed to beat Fighting-types.

tl;dr:
>Remove Heliolisk
>Mismagius -> C+
>All sticky webbers move down a tier, besides maybe Shuckle)
>Remove Archeops and Articuno

 

[jamashawalker]

I'd like to propose Heliolisk to be removed from the list In my experience, Heliolisk hasn't been threatening at all. As something to offensively use Volt Switch and keep pressure on the opposing team, it's completely inferior to both Mega Manectric and Raikou. Mega Manectric has much higher Special Attack, Speed, and gets very similar coverage moves, minus Focus Blast, while Raikou boasts superior stats in literally every single category, and can get the exact same coverage while having the much more reliable Aura Sphere as opposed to Heliolisk's Focus Blast. I mean, I guess Heliolisk gets Surf, but it's not like Darmanitan is going to be switching into you any time soon.

Heliolisk also has pitiful defenses (62/52/94) which makes it inferior to Heat Rotom and Mega Ampharos. The only thing that really separates it is Dry Skin, but its defenses are so pitiful that it is very hard to risk multiple switch-ins. Heat Rotom also has Pain Split, a status move, a ground immunity, and resistances to Grass and Fire, while Mega Ampharos gets secondary Dragon typing, which gives it a multitude of resistances, and Mega Ampharos can again, achieve the exact same coverage moves with the exception of like Surf. I just can't find any reason anybody should be using heliolisk when there's not just one, but FOUR other electric-types that do basically the same thing. If you really really want to keep in on the list, make it like C tier or something, but I don't see a reason for it to even be present.

Next, I'd like to nominate Mismagius for C+tier. It was a great counter to Diggersby (rip), and it turned things like Deo-D into setup bait, but they're both gone now, and like Heliolisk, I don't see a reason for using it in the tier. As a fast Nasty Plotter, it's pretty inferior to Mew who boasts EXTREMELY superior 100/100 bulk, as well as Aura Sphere > HP Fighting. Mismagius is just BEGGING for Dark-types to switch in, and Sub isn't even a reliable way to play around Sucker Punches anymore since Mega Absol and Houndoom just outspeed you anyways. In addition, there are a few counters (ie Snorlax) and several checks (ie Suicune, Zapdos, anything above base 105 speed and a powerful offensive STAB, lots of scarfers) in the top few tiers. I don't think it's as effective as it once was.

I'd also like to propose that every single Sticky-Web pokemon moves down a tier or two. Sticky Web, as I've said multiple times, is a great move. The pokemon that have access to it, however, suck. Really hard. You're basically playing a game 5 on 6, since every single Sticky Web-user except Shuckle just dies instantly. Shuckle itself is a pretty pitiful pokemon, but at least it has Encore, Stealth Rock, and Toxic to prevent itself from being completely useless. It still doesn't have any reliable recovery outside of Rest, though, which just turns it into setup bait for a lot of pokemon.

Proposing that Archeops and Articuno also both be completely removed. Archeops wasn't useful in gen 5, and it didn't (to my knowledge) get any new toys in gen 6 that made it better. If anything, it got worse with the release of Mega Aerodactyl. Defeatest is just a piss-poor ability, and there's quite a few mons in the top tiers (Hippowdon, Doublade, Zygarde, etc.) that can easily eat a Head Smash. Articuno is 4x weak to Stealth Rock, its defensive typing is terrible, its most powerful offensive STABs have 70% accuracy, and the only new toy it got in gen 6 was Defog. If you want to use a 4x Rock weak pokemon as your defogger, be my guest.

A couple of other things I want to say without expanding too much on (probably because I really shouldn't need to):
>Why in God's name is Steelix on this list
>Putting Pory2 in the same tier is insulting. Pory2 -> B
>Just because something gets Boomburst doesn't mean it's useful. (lolchatot)
>Putting Porygon-Z lower than Steelix is also insulting. Pory-Z -> B-tier
>Jolteon -> B- tier. Much faster and almost as powerful as Raikou, but still usually inferior.
>Remove Weezing, or at least move it down to C or C-tier. Now that Mega Heracross is gone, it's not needed to beat Fighting-types.

tl;dr:
>Remove Heliolisk
>Mismagius -> C+
>All sticky webbers move down a tier, besides maybe Shuckle)
>Remove Archeops and Articuno

I agree with everything you said on there except for the Helioisk one. It is at the moment outclassed by alot of the other electric types here in UU, but it has tons of niche's over some of its contenders.

1. Dry skin: Allows it to swtich into many bulky waters without fear of burn from scald. Also it beats Crocune 1 on 1, a major threat in this metagame.
   
2. Movepool: It suffers the worse for 4 MMS. Thunderbolt, voltswitch, Grass knot, surf, focus blast, dark pulse, U-turn(For some damage on celebi) Those are a ton of coverage that many Electric types only dream of having. Surf hits some things for super effective for those trying to switch into an electric move. Namely Nidoking(Queen), Rotom-H, Bulky Arcanine, and Krookodile. Focus Blast for Magnezone and some pretty decent coverage. Could go on but you get the picture.
3. 109 Base Speed: This is a plus! Being able to outspeed Keldeo is huge also Cobalion. Being able to switch into a well predicted(still risky) Hydro pump from keldeo is also huge.
4. 109 Base SpAtk: (cricket cricket cricket) enough to KO things hit with super effective damage, but not neutral lol

It's definitely not the best electric type choice, but it's not a wrong choice vs the others. I would say a B- is good for it to stay there. Looking at all the C ranked, it definitely is better than the those options lol

 

[mertyville]

The viability of some pokemon are keep changing without reasoning. I would like to know how Mew got S rank.

Sure, it is very flexible thanks to its insane movepool being able to run special set, physical set, supporter, annoyer etc. but in a Metagame were Dark Typ moves are spammed everywhere which alone is lowering the viablility of last gen S Ranking Pokemon in OU Jirachi to A Ranking in UU, that makes me wonder somehow.

 

[panamaxis]

Taunt Wisp Knock off Roost beats or cripples a significant majority of the tier. I'd argue that mew can wall a significant portion of the metagame as it it extremely hard to break without STAB SE moves unless you just have insane power to being with. And then keep in mind that any switch-in to mew risks losing it's item, so when the offensive mons' Choice Specs / Band / Life Orb gets knocked off mew just becomes that much harder to break. S Rank is the home of pokemon that can perform multiple roles well and Mew is pretty much the most versatile (if not the, it's one of) pokemon in UU.

 

[Mazz]

Another thing Mew has going for it is an unrivaled level of unpredictability. It has base 100 stats across the board and access to every teachable move in the game. Sure, Mew's common weaknesses may be in high demand right now, but how do you react to it when you need to worry about everything it could do to your team?

If brought in against the proper fodder, Mew is theoretically impossible to safely switch-in on (provided you have no previous knowledge of it set); it has access to Will-O-Wisp, so any physical check you bring into it (barring like Guts Heracross, Fire-types, etc.) cannot come in 100% safely. Dark-types like Mega-Houndoom and Mega-Absol have to be conscious of a potential Drain Punch, Aura Sphere, or Focus Blast knocking their teeth into their skulls. Bug-types fear Fire-type moves like Flamethrower and Fire Punch. Ghost-types can be mauled by Sucker-Punch or Shadow Ball. If you scout it with Protect, you run the risk of it using Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, Rock Polish, or a combination of those moves. Without that previous knowing of what your opponent's Mew could be running, you can never safely switch into it, but only take a guess regarding to the rest of the opponent's team.

A lot of what makes a Pokemon worthy of S-Rank doesn't necessarily have to be its offensive or defensive capabilities (these really help though, and Mew has the latter for sure). I'd like to think of Mew as one of those rare cases. Think Kingdra from last generation - it was considered a top offensive threat because you had to figure out what it did before you could safely beat it, and by that point you were probably too late. Mew is the perfected version of that, meaning it can literally do everything (to certain degrees of greatness), and its unpredictability is a factor, significant or not, is part of why Mew is S-Rank and worthy of such a title.

 

[Schpoonman]

Mew hasn't perfected the "unpredictable offensive threat" thing that Kingdra did AT ALL. If it's S for anything, it'd be its defensive/utility sets. To get similar power (Mew has no analogue to STAB Hydro Pump or Draco Meteor), you have to run Swords Dance or Nasty Plot, and are therefore vulnerable to revenge killing. If you want the speed Kingdra could get with Rain Dance, you're losing power unless you Double Dance, which has its own barrel of problems. Now Kingdra even has a niche that Mew physically cannot replicate in the Focus Energy Sniper set. Mew is theoretically unpredictable, but unfortunately mostly predictable in practice given how effective his defensive sets are and how lackluster his offensive sets are. Kingdra was S last generation not only because it was extremely unpredictable (Is it Specs? Is it DD? Is it Rain Dance? Is it some unholy combination of several sets?) but also that every set was very powerful in its own right. Mew has incredible utility, but so does Latias who is superior in all fronts except physical offense and defense and movepool (but I'd argue Latias can do more with her movepool than Mew can with its), and Latias is just A.

I guess this is my argument against Mew in S. A or A+, certainly, but it's not a meta-game defining threat. I am curious as to why Hawlucha and Keldeo both fell, both of them are deserving of S in my book (though I know Keldeo was only ever A+). Hawlucha is THE best late-game cleaner in UU and Keldeo is probably the best general attacker in the tier, only really challenged by Hydreigon for that title, and that's only up for debate because Keldeo's movepool is just that abysmal.

 

[panamaxis]

It was recently found out that Red card activating on substitute is a glitch, which means Hawlucha's best set is actually illegal.

A Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

Yeah Hawlucha can lategame sweep a significant portion of the metagame but it's flaw is that it only really gets one shot to do this, and with sub + red card being a glitch it's now a lot easier to outright counter it with stuff like Zapdos since there is no threat of being phazed out to a pokemon, thus allowing Hawlucha to either boost again or making its 'counter' take hazards damage again making it easier to break through.

 

[Farobi]

I'd like to propose Rotom-H for A-.

I'm currently using the Specially Defensive variant with WoW / Volt Switch / Pain Split / Overheat and it's really impressive how great this thing tanks hits from Zapdos, Mega Manectric, the Nidos, Magnezone, Metagross and Celebi. Not only does Rotom-H have solid resistances, but it has decent potential in its offensive capabilities as well, with powerful Fire / Electric STABs even without investments. Pair it with some Wish support and maybe a Defogger / Rapid Spinner and this Pokemon practically becomes unbreakable.

 

[Taehl]

Chansey S-Rank? Chansey needs its eviolite to work and Knock Off is everywhere.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Chansey passes the fattest wishes in the tier while having god-tier special bulk and good enough physical bulk too. Knock Off is everywhere but the only Knock Off user that Chansey isn't going to run from would probably be Tornadus-T (who has Superpower to beat Chansey anyway). Common Knock Off users either beat Chansey already (Crawdaunt) or doesn't really give a fuck about Chansey to begin with (Tangrowth)

 

[Graycross]

Knock Off is predictable*.

That and why would you leave Chansey in on a physical 'mon that learns knock off? You should probably be running an absorber for it anyways if you find it so omnipresent. (M-Aggron, Chesnaught, etc.)

 

[Taehl]

That and why would you leave Chansey in on a physical 'mon that learns knock off? You should probably be running an absorber for it anyways if you find it so omnipresent. (M-Aggron, Chesnaught, etc.)

Knock Off isn't predictable at all since almost everything can run it. My friend got screwed over by Knock Off Reuniclus the other day.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Reuniclus already beats chansey with the calm mind set, he was bound to lose the moment he switched chansey on it.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Reuniclus would be hard pressed to run Knock Off when it has TR, CM, STAB, Focus Blast, Shadow Ball and Recover as options to run. And as mentioned, CM+Recover Reuniclus laughs at Chansey.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Crawdaunt, tangrowth, machamp, mienshao, escavalier, heracross, tornadus-t, krookodile, all of them except tornadus-t already beat chansey regardless of this move (and tangrowth already ran knock off last gen too anyway). Your argument that everything runs knock off and that it is unpredictable is wrong when there arent many things legal in uu capable of learning this move in first place and almost all of them are shit or have better things to do.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

the op should really specify which gourgeist is b rank.

 

[xam13124]

I'd like to nominate Tangrowth for B rank. It pulls off a bulky attacker set very well with Regenerator+ Assualt Vest, having very good Health and Defense and a Special Defense stat that can be easily patched up with the Vest. It can run physical, special or mixed attacking sets with its good attacking stat, has access to Knock Off for utility and works very well as part of a FWG defensive core, personally I use Tangrowth with Slowbro and Rotom-H and they cover each other's defenses very well.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

I'd like to nominate Tangrowth for B rank. It pulls off a bulky attacker set very well with Regenerator+ Assualt Vest, having very good Health and Defense and a Special Defense stat that can be easily patched up with the Vest. It can run physical, special or mixed attacking sets with its good attacking stat, has access to Knock Off for utility and works very well as part of a FWG defensive core, personally I use Tangrowth with Slowbro and Rotom-H and they cover each other's defenses very well.

Tangrowth is already B+ rank...?

 

[Talpr0ne]

My point is that everything carries Knock Off, even things you don't expect from to have it, so it isn't predictable at all.
But the OP isn't going to care about these comments anyway (he said that himself), so I might aswell just leave.

Viable stuff in UU that might carry Knock Off

Hide

• Machamp, which beats Chansey regardless
• Victreebel, which beats Chansey already with Power Whip
• Shuckle, which Chansey with Toxic beats.
• Heracross, which obviously beats Chansey regardless
• Crawdaunt, which steamrolls Chansey already with Crabhammer or even Switcheroo.
• Absol, which don't commonly carries the move because of incompatibility issues with Play Rough, and has access to Superpower anyways.
• Empoleon, which Chansey beats.
• Toxicroak, which obviously beats Chansey regardless.
• Tangrowth, which has Power Whip for Chansey, like Victreebel(although it will leave severely crippled by toxic)
• Krookodile, which already beats Chansey with Superpower or Earthquake
• Whimsicott, which doesn't frequently carry the move and shuts down Chansey with Taunt
• Scrafty which obviously beats Chansey regardless
• Reuniclus which beats already Chansey with LO Psyshock, maybe boosted by Calm Mind, and doesn't commonly carry knock off.
  
• Mienshao which obviously beats Chansey regardless
• Tornadus, which might carry Superpower for Chansey.

Out of 15 common users of the move, Chansey want to stay in on the face of a grand total of two, so it's safe to say that Knock off doesn't hampers much Chansey's viability.

 

[RabidChipmunk]

the op should really specify which gourgeist is b rank.

I'd imagine it's Gourgeist-XL, which is the best (and in my opinion, only viable) Gourgeist-forme.

 

[termi]

Knock Off isn't predictable at all since almost everything can run it. My friend got screwed over by Knock Off Reuniclus the other day.

The fact that so many things can learn Knock Off, doesn't mean it's always a good move. Knock Off on Reuniclus is not only pathetically weak, but it takes up a moveslot that could otherwise be used for something much more useful. Knock Off should only be kept in mind when it is substantially better than most other options for a move on a Pokemon, otherwise your opponent is just using an inferior moveset.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

I'd imagine it's Gourgeist-XL, which is the best (and in my opinion, only viable) Gourgeist-forme.

Gourgeist-S is a pretty decent Subseeder with base 99 Speed, giving it a whole different niche from XL. 55/122 physical bulk is still pretty good imo and Grass/Ghost isn't exactly the worst typing either.