Gen VII: Pokemon Sun and Moon Discussion MKII

[QuickBH]

If you're worried about them removing gym battles don't worry it'll be back for the (hopeful) Platinum remake!

 

[Gabe]

Just like with mega evolution these Alola forms show Gamefreak has found another way to simultaneously introduce "new" Pokemon, change the metagame, and "fix" up old pokemon without actually adding too many unique species. Pretty genius on their part. Less work too.


I'm actually really happy they did this, would be weird for so many species to be exactly the same in all regions of the world.

 

[X5Dragon]

I wonder if facing Stall Teams in Gen 7 will go like:

1) Choose high attack, neutral coverage pokemon (Ghost, Dragon, etc.)
2) Have him Z attack and 2hko/faint a pokemon at the very beginning blowing a hole in their team
3) ?????
4) Victory

 

[Prof. Almeida]

Not sure if this counts as wishlisting since it's not totally baseless, but if it is true that we're not doing Gyms (which seems very likely at this point) and there's evidence to suggest HMs have been removed, then what else has Game Freak switched up? I can't remember what those old leaks said about the evil team, but it wouldn't totally surprise me if that series mainstay was also ditched for this Generation. It'd be very interesting to see how the conflict would be presented without the team, or possibly no antagonist at all.

I'm really liking these shake-ups to the formula, because the franchise really needs it after 20 years of same-old-same-old.

iirc, the only "leak" that mentioned the evil team was the guy that claimed to be a fired employee and that said the evil team's objective was to build a resort of sorts. But this was in the "Free for All Weekend", so I wouldn't hold my breath for it.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Since stats will be different (based on A-Sandshrew's description), it'll be interesting to see how that plays. I wonder if the forme change will be automatic or triggered?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Alolan version are default and there's no way to change them. You won't find the normal version of these Pokemon in Alola, at least not in the main story of the game (who knows how your actions may cause an environmental change like they did in ORAS or you just find a way/area to encounter the original versions).

It's still called Sandslash as an Ice/Steel type and it is going to really throw me off I can tell.

Going to imagine there's going to be a lot of reflex memory working against people:

Opposing Trainer is going to send out (previous gen Pokemon), want to switch?
*instinctually sends out a type that would be strong against original form of Pokemon*
*Previous gen Pokemon sent out is revealed to have an Alolan version, one which makes it strong against its old weakness*

I agree as the description implies those pokemon have been established in Alola, but it makes sense that it's Pokemon specifically brought from Kanto and would require you to send more $$ on their previous ports..

I'd say it would make more sense that the only way to get the OLDER forms you need to transfer. Want a Ground-type Sandslash, Fire-type Ninetales, and non-Dragon-type Exeggutor? Well I hope you didn't get rid of your copy of X, Y, OR, and/or AS.

Snowslash and Hailtales*****

Snowshrew, Snowflash, Vulmist, Ninewisp, Exegguuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuutor

I don't understand people suddenly taking note of Exeggutor's expression, his faces ALWAYS had these expressions. If anything they should be focusing on his new head on his tail.

It's gonna be interesting if the Alolan Forms keep the same Egg Moves as their original forms or not since they share the same Dex Number.
If they do, Alolan Ninetales gets Heat Wave.

I imagine they'll be kept separate with may some cross over if you breed the original with the Alolan though it won't be anything majorly broken, just a useful utility move.

Also, if Z-moves are really powerfull but with 1PP, then it might force the meta to run protect or carry a really defensive Pokemon to absorb the damage.

I do think there will be a psychological metagame shift as players need to wisely use their Z-Move at the right time lest it be blocked. This is why I don't think it'll break through Protect otherwise you'll just use it either at the start to massively weaken your opponent's strongest Pokemon or when you got them to half HP to just knock them out (not to mention if it would be a OHKO).

Probably just an aesthetic change. The website says it's just from different types of debris absorbed in the atmosphere, so it shouldn't really affect typing. I think it's just mostly to have different ornament colors, since they describe it as being the subject of many design motifs.

Pretty much the The Flabebe family gimmick.

Isnt that where the poop comes out of!?

It's a plant, plants don't poop.

So wait, Oricorio's dance is counted as a separate action other than the move it uses on your turn?

Looks that way.

I'm like 90% sure that the Yellow Tauros is another Alola form. Maybe electric type because Gamefreak likes to play on phrases and they could play on "charging bull."

Also. It's so cool you can ride a Charizard.

I don't know, compared to what they did to the other Pokemon a palette swap is pretty lame. I think its just oddly colored in the image, like the artist was trying to have the sun shinning on it.

Cool? COOL? IT'S F@#$EN HOT & AWESOME! :D

Since they are forms I suppose we won't be able to take a Sandslash and an A-Sandslash in the same team when it comes to competitive rules.

That would be an interesting aspect of these different version Pokemon, and makes sense as that applies to Pokemon who have forms of different types.

Btw, on another note, I noticed something interesting in the website, where they talk about the Totem Pokémon:

When Totem Pokémon battle, they summon ally Pokémon to join them. With the support of these allies, the Totem Pokémon become even more powerful. And it seems that Pokémon other than Totem Pokémon sometimes call on allies to aid them.

Bold by me. That can mean when you're almost beating a Pokémon in a 1 on 1 battle, they might call for backups, and them you'll be facing a two on one battle against two random wild Pokémon. Imagine what hell you could be through if both of them happen to be shiny or one is a shiny and the other is a rare Pokémon in the route. That could be neat.

I think those battles would probably be scripted.

I think that it's Fire/Dark according to the spoilers.

Wait, I thought it said in those leaked images that it was Fire/Dark?

Yes, I know you're all excited and stuff, but please remember that we still have a wishlisting rule. Posts like "I really want..." or "wouldn't it be neat if..." are exciting to write, but not necessarily to read, and they have a tendency to clutter the thread. So please, continue with observations, but leave your wishes elsewhere.

Thanks, all!

Can we also cover everyone saying a Pokemon with a certain Z-Move? Honestly I think the Z-Moves are going to be the same type as the user's type as well. Why would a Pokemon do a super move of a type that it isn't?

What I'm wondering about Z-moves is if they're physical or special attacks. How does that work?

If a Pokemon needs to know a move of the crystal's type, then maybe Z-Move uses the category of that move.

I feel as if the different forms of Orocorio dont get different Level Up Moves then the pokemon would be a tad bit useless. You can only go so far with TMs. I mean the Ghost Type Orocorio would be locked into using Shadow Ball or Shadow Claw which arent too bad moves but if thats it. Then Idk the pokemon itself would seem like a lost concept to me.

Wormadam and Meowstic gets different level-up moves so I don't see why Orocorio wouldn't.

Magearna in doubles may want to have a word with you :p

I'm willing to overlooked Legendaries being overpowered since they're, you know, Legendary.

Just you fuckers WAIT until this absolute menace gets to use an attacking move!!!

No one will be safe.

NO ONE.

Honestly it'll probably still prefer Counter and/or Mirror Coat. :P

Poor Arceus though! He could have any type he wants, but he can't use a Z-Power and Plate to change his type and get the STAB at the same time!

If he didn't already want to send Rayquaza to the Distortion World yet, he sure does now! His fury must be divine, hahaha!!!

Maybe since they're allowing Pokemon to now have different types they'll give it a way to be a different type without it needing to hold an item (like have a place you can put a Plate and it'll change Arceus type). Maybe even allow it to be any duel type.

I have a feeling that only gen 1 pokemon will get Alola forms, possibly to cash in on the nostalgia factor and influx of old players that Pokemon Go brought in.

While I'm sure plenty of Gen I Pokemon will have Alola forms, it would be pretty short sighted to only limit it to the Gen I Pokemon. People have nostalgia for the other gens and their favorite Pokemon might be in other gens.

I still have mine untouched... this gonna be fun

And that Z-Move will be terrifying off that 15 Special Attack. :P

Find this comment so amusing due to the fact that you're so upset over a coconut tree Pokemon having dragon-typing, which to you is "illogical." But then you have to remember that Exeggutor is a Coconut tree that evolves from some animal eggs and has random psychic powers. But for some reason dragon-typing is where things become too weird.

It's concept art shows it spitting smog/poison (into the face of it's opponent) so it seems like a dirty fighter. That's what Dark Type is all about. Sucker Punch, Feint Attack, etc.

Well the Psychic makes sense since the heads share each other thoughts, its why they are always conveying different emotions as each head represents a different emotion. It's not strong in its design, but its still there. But aside from there being a palm tree having the name dragon where does the Dragon-type come into play?

Which is why I said it was a heel wrestler. Still, if you wanted to do a dirty fighter they didn't need such a heavy wrestler design which gives thoughts of another Fire/Fighting.

Few things from me that aren't 100% clear from the trailer.

Are the Alolan pokemon still the same dex number? If so then we still don't have any 'new' Ice types yet, as I refuse to believe that snowy Alola only has 2 ice types in it - nor do we have any Alola Dark types announced yet. Although the official website has a 'Sandshrew as has been seen in the past' picture suggesting they'll keep their dex numbers it's still a little up in air.

More surprising things - for being a chain of islands, we've had only 3 water types announced and one of those is Popplio, Wimpod is a bug water type which I'd assume we'll find in or around fresh water (going off real life) as opposed to the sea and Bruxish is our only new seafaring water pokemon we'll encounter in the wild? Hopefully there are a few more around with nice dual typings, or who knows - maybe we'll have some Alolan versions of older gen mons.

They probably keep their National Dex number, just be considered different forms.

Yeah, thinking about it, Alolan Pokemon is a good excuse to have a lot of Water-type Pokemon for an island region without having them being completely new Pokemon.

I have my doubts. With very few exceptions, Megas completely outclass the original even if you can give the Mega an item. I don't think they'll do that. That's even if they rebalance the stat totals because the abilities on some Megas are just too good.

However one has to wonder how this will affect Mega Pokemon. If they ever make a Mega Ninetales, Sandslash, and/or Exeggutor will they need two Mega Stones for each kind of them? Will they just naturally become a Mega version of their kind of species without needing separate stones? I plan on going more into that with my full thoughts.

"I don't see any big deal in that"

Let's hold off the No Guard Machamp + Fissure until we see what they actually do with it when transferred over.

I just realized something: Z-Moves will likely be banned from 1v1.

Why?

View attachment 66394 P
Pokemon Go be like

That image is obviously fake!... There's still footprints!

... I just realise this is Tierno's soul Pokemon.

And Ludicolo can rightfully go back to being Miror B's soul Pokemon.

Now I consider going to Hawaii to have this funny thing. Go's Exeggutor is very good after all.

But then, I assume Exeggcute doesn't have Alolan form. What will happen if one evolves Exeggcute transferred from XYORAS? Hmm....

... maybe regular Exeggutor if Alola's + mark influences it.

Probably the case, especially if the rumors are true. Unless it says it was caught in Alola it'll evolve into normal Exeggutor.

That's something that I've been wondering about myself. We know Vulpix and Sandshrew have Alolian forms, but what about Exeggcute?

We see it remains the same. They're just seeds afterall, Exeggutor changes because the environment had an effect on how the seeds grown.

On the 1% chance that this thought doesn't occur to anyone else - I think Z-move being physical or special can simply be based on the move that it replaces. Pikachu with Thunderbolt? It's special. Pikachu with Volt Tackle? It's physical. I feel like this would be cleaner than basing it on base stats or special vs. physical Z-crystals or EVs.

Then again, maybe not. What would be interesting is what would happen if the player is ten-year-old me who teaches her Pokemon multiple moves of the same type. What if Pikachu has both?

Maybe on the turn of using the super move you need to select the attack it'll replace, that would get rid of any ambiguity of what category you want it to be.

I wonder if facing Stall Teams in Gen 7 will go like:

1) Choose high attack, neutral coverage pokemon (Ghost, Dragon, etc.)
2) Have him Z attack and 2hko/faint a pokemon at the very beginning blowing a hole in their team
3) ?????
4) Victory

With how GF have been they'd probably make Alolan Tropius a Grass/Fire-type just cause. :P

DONE! Tomorrow I'll post my full thoughts on everything revealed.

 

[QuickBH]

Going to imagine there's going to be a lot of reflex memory working against people:

Opposing Trainer is going to send out (previous gen Pokemon), want to switch?
*instinctually sends out a type that would be strong against original form of Pokemon*
*Previous gen Pokemon sent out is revealed to have an Alolan version, one which makes it strong against its old weakness*

See folks, this is why you put your game to set instead of shift!

 

[Taistelu]

Why?

You could OHKO almost everything with a Z-move making the 1v1 Meta "who gets to use their Z Moves first"

That or protect.

 

[MrTharne]

I saw people say that Pikachu OHKOed Snowshrew with Gigavolt Havoc but it didn't, it did something like 70%.

 

[Pikachu315111]

You could OHKO almost everything with a Z-move making the 1v1 Meta "who gets to use their Z Moves first"

That or protect.

Well that would all depend on how powerful the moves are. And as you said if they're still affected by things like Protect, Focus Sash, semi-invulnerable turns, etc. then you got to be careful when you choose a Z-Move in a metagame that would have adapted to that. And who knows, maybe this would help stall as a tank will take Z-Moves better than offensive Pokemon who are normally a bit on the frail side.

Not saying they wouldn't though, if they are indeed too strong and more often then not it does become a game of "who can Z-Move first" I'd imagine VGC would start banning or limiting them (if they aren't already limited).

 

[QuickBH]

Well that would all depend on how powerful the moves are. And as you said if they're still affected by things like Protect, Focus Sash, semi-invulnerable turns, etc. then you got to be careful when you choose a Z-Move in a metagame that would have adapted to that. And who knows, maybe this would help stall as a tank will take Z-Moves better than offensive Pokemon who are normally a bit on the frail side.

Not saying they wouldn't though, if they are indeed too strong and more often then not it does become a game of "who can Z-Move first" I'd imagine VGC would start banning or limiting them (if they aren't already limited).

I think the person means in the 1v1 metagame, not in a 6v6 or VGC. Like the category in showdown. Challenge cup I think it's called. I REALLY don't see this is as anything more than a glorified gem move. Which is cool, but it will be great in VGC but not in OU, at least from the information we know.

 

[Nelson Tangela]

Not thrilled about the direction Game Freak is going with here. Alternate forms and varieties of existing pokemon is fine and good...except these really suck.
Exeggutor. An already ugly pokemon...made uglier. And what's with the randomly added dragon type? A slow pokemon 4x weak to ice and 2x weak to U-turn and pursuit? Straight into NU with your cousin.

credits to Owlanay

 

[MikeAU]

A little late to the party, I know, but I *almost* had a meltdown on the train this morning after seeing all the cool footage from the new trailer!!

I know it's already been established -- but i can't help myself. Gumshoos says SuMo is "gonna be YUUUUGE"

Hide

Can't believe i'm affording that joke of a human being any of my breath/time. But surely Gumshoos is a dig at him? Surely. I mean, its even hiding its teeny-tiny hands in shame.

Up until now, my personal view of Sun/Moon was mixed between intrigue and moderate excitement -- after seeing this i'm hyped. I don't think i've fully digested the significance/benefit of the z-moves and alola forms -- but its refreshing. Given its the big TWO-ZERO this year, i'm really hoping that GF blow us away with these new features and surprises -- not just *new* pokemon. We can all agree that as far as VGC goes, its a tried and tested formula that is fun (not forgetting it brings in a massive payday) -- as nostalgic as I am, I also want to see some tweaks, refinements, etc.

It's also nice to see the Alola forms -- assuming the existing ground movepool (sandslash) and fire movepool (vulpix/ninetales) hold but actually having an ice/ice-fairy type and ice-steel respectively, will be a pretty nice change.

I'm also hopeful that the inclusion of these forms 'debunks' some of the perceptions that the dex positions are already fixed and that it isn't possible for a new eeveelution (looking at you, DHR-107 -- we've had some 'healthy' chats on IRC about this. Deniability on my end, most likely -- but one can hope!).

Overall, I must say i'm a little more engaged/excited now -- safe to say we were always going to receive a decent (at minimum) game however -- given how important this year's release is -- its great to see some tweaks, refinements come through to the new games.

 

[WaveBomber_]

I'm also hopeful that the inclusion of these forms 'debunks' some of the perceptions that the dex positions are already fixed and that it isn't possible for a new eeveelution (looking at you, DHR-107 -- we've had some 'healthy' chats on IRC about this. Deniability on my end, most likely -- but one can hope!).

Wait wait wait.

So, to put it another way: We might get Alolan Eeveelutions with secondary types?!

 

[Nelson Tangela]

Do you guys think that Eggy has a head on its tail so it can actually hear its trainer's commands? (°3°)

 

[Pikachu315111]

Z-Ring SPOILERS! You know the toy peripheral of it? Well one of the advertisements for it I think did a bit of an oopsie and revealed all the Crystal symbols:

Not that big of a spoiler but still

Element - Color - Symbol:
Electric - Yellow - Lightning Bolt
Fire - Red - Flame
Grass - Green - Leaf
Water - Light Blue - Water Drop
Fighting - Orange - Fist
Normal - White - Circles (vaguely looks like a Poke Ball?)
Steel - Dark Gray - Cube
Rock - Dark Brown - Piece of Stone (maybe an amber?)
Poison - Dark Purple - Skull and Crossbones
Ghost - Magenta - Ghostly Wisp
Dark - Black - Crescent Moon
Bug - Light Green - Beetle
Flying - Dark Blue - Pair of Wings
Dragon - Blue - Rune/Claw?
Ice - Gray - Snowflake
Fairy - Pink? - (I have no clue)
Psychic - Magenta - Eye
Ground - Brown - Layered Lines

 

[The_Emperor]

I wonder what it would feel like to be the head that sits on that Alolan Exeggutor's tail

 

[DHR-107]

1v1 isn't even a relavant metagame in any way shape or form. No idea why it's even being brought up here of all places. There is the Other Metagames forum for that sort of thing.

On the other side of things: I love new Eggy. I like the other Alola forme mons too. This has actually genuinely got me interested in more Kanto "different" mons and maybe some other formes of additional Pokemon. would be interesting to see just how far the Chinese leaks go to be honest. Some of the things are kinda right and kinda wrong, but close enough?

I'm far more interested in the 4 trials and 4 Kahunas being the equivalent of the 8 gyms. It also gives us a little more information as I believe those circular "sumo" rings on the map may be the places were we battle the Kahunas. Seems interesting we may have fetch quests and the like that influence how people view us and how we progress in the Alola League; there is something very Orange Islands about it all. Not having gyms is certainly an interesting way to go, and is having more ridable Pokemon an attempt at getting rid of HM Moves entirely? Or more of a move to having HM moves be for exploration instead?

MikeAU, EEVEE WILL NOT GET NEW FORMES. Its already's Eevee's thing that evolves based on the environment, it getting additional formes outside of those we already have would be ridiculous (as in, water typed Sylveon or something). We've already seen it has 8 evolutions in the dex.

 

[QuickBH]

Z-Ring SPOILERS! You know the toy peripheral of it? Well one of the advertisements for it I think did a bit of an oopsie and revealed all the Crystal symbols:

Not that big of a spoiler but still

Element - Color - Symbol:
Electric - Yellow - Lightning Bolt
Fire - Red - Flame
Grass - Green - Leaf
Water - Light Blue - Water Drop
Fighting - Orange - Fist
Normal - White - Circles (vaguely looks like a Poke Ball?)
Steel - Dark Gray - Cube
Rock - Dark Brown - Piece of Stone (maybe an amber?)
Poison - Dark Purple - Skull and Crossbones
Ghost - Magenta - Ghostly Wisp
Dark - Black - Crescent Moon
Bug - Light Green - Beetle
Flying - Dark Blue - Pair of Wings
Dragon - Blue - Rune/Claw?
Ice - Gray - Snowflake
Fairy - Pink? - (I have no clue)
Psychic - Magenta - Eye
Ground - Brown - Layered Lines

Think this will knowledge will have competitive use? I mean, I think you only see your trainer when doing 2 player wifi battles, but if for some reason it shows the trainer (like at the beginning or switching out) knowing what type the z boost is will be great knowledge to have.

 

[Chill]

Wait wait wait.

So, to put it another way: We might get Alolan Eeveelutions with secondary types?!

I wish they would just finish the eeveelution party. Just knock out the rest of the types in one or two gens and then start messing with secondary types. It would be a bummer to see some evolutions getting changes when we don't yet have an evolution for each type.

 

[Taistelu]

18 Eeveelutions is a bit much. We really don't need every type to have an Eeveelution because then it'd just get insane. It's not like we need to complete it for every time or something. In addition how do you go about finding more unique evolution methods?

 

[Nelson Tangela]

If shiny Exeggutor-A's color palette is like shiny Exeggutor's, I'm naming mine (Sideshow) Bob. (°3°)

credits to HGSS94

Would post this in the nicknames thread, but spoilers.

 

[Pyritie]

18 Eeveelutions is a bit much. We really don't need every type to have an Eeveelution because then it'd just get insane. It's not like we need to complete it for every time or something. In addition how do you go about finding more unique evolution methods?

I kinda wish they'd just retcon eeveelutions to use all the other various elemental stones instead of coming up with increasingly convoluted methods. It's not like they haven't retconned a ton of stuff before.

 

[Axelsaurus]

MikeAU, EEVEE WILL NOT GET NEW FORMES. Its already's Eevee's thing that evolves based on the environment, it getting additional formes outside of those we already have would be ridiculous (as in, water typed Sylveon or something). We've already seen it has 8 evolutions in the dex.

Not that I care much if Eevee does get new formes or not, but the 8 evolutions in the dex proves nothing imho. Alola formes aren't separated, they're the same species as the original, so it's likely that it would result in just one "pokéball" in the dex, showing the different formes when opening the specific pokémon's profile. I'm not saying that we'll see necessarily new Eevee formes, nor I'm desperately hoping for them (Eevos are just OK to me), but I don't see any valid reasons to find impossible the existence of new formes instead of new evos, combining the current types with the remaining types absent from the Eevo chart. Eevos are pretty popular, it's unlikely that they'll never change again without the introduction of a new type.

 

[Project_Mars]

Why are people assuming that all the Kanto Pokemon are getting Alola forms? For that to happen that would mean the Alola dex would have: all non-legendary Kanto pokemon + a handful of other pokemon from other gens + all the new Alola Pokemon... I don't exactly see Grimer and Muk, two Pokemon caused by human pollution as a thing on Alola. (Koffing and Weezing being near volcanic gasses makes sense though.)

And even if that did happen, the Alola Pokemon are different due to actual evolutionary pressures. That doesnt seem likely to apply to all older Pokemon found in the Alola Region. If I had to guess there will probably be about 15 - 20 Alola Forms at most in-game.

 

[Garuru]

My impression is, if this turns out to be true, is that the RBY mons retaining their original typing applies to the Alola-native forms (aka Exeggutor, Ninetails, Sandslash, and almost certainty more) and the "International" versions that we all know and love. Thus it would be easy to identify the difference in types.

I imagine Pokemon like Clefable, who had their types modified as new types were introduced, will still adopt those changes upon transfer. I cannot see Game Freak throwing away Magneton's Steel typing away, for example.

Anyway, on a different subject, I'm not sure how I feel about the island challenges replacing the gyms/league yet. I know change is good for the series and all, but this feels quite sudden, and striving to conquer the league and become champion has always been one of the key objectives of the franchise (arguably more important than "catching them all"). I'm still a bit confused about how many challenges there are, and how many of the captains you'll battle, but from what I understand, it's one captain per island (making it 4). If that's correct, that concerns me quite a bit on the length of the game. A short story mode would sting even worse if the post-game ends up being barebones to non-existent, and we all know the post-game is very hit or miss when it comes to Pokemon.

It's not one captain per ISLAND, it's one captain per TRIAL. There are multiple trials per island.